Distinction between "greed" and "selfishness"?

[Cary]

I had an exchange with a conservative who extolled the virtues of Ayn Rand. I suggested that greed was not such a good thing. He came back with:

I was not defending "greed", I was defending selfishness.

The desire of one to keep what is rightfully theirs is one thing(selfishness) the desire to acquire through force or fraud the property of others(greed)--quite another.

Silly leftist that I am, I see this as a distinction without a difference. Am I missing something?

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

1. well...

one can be selfish but not greedy, while one probably cannot be greedy without being selfish.

[Cary]

8. So greedy is selfish + something else?

What is that something else?

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

10. You misunderstand...

You can be just selfish, but not necessarily regarding money (meaning you aren't necessarily greedy).

However, you are automatically being selfish if you are being greedy.

[Cary]

11. So greedy involves just money?

Selfish:

1 : concerned excessively or exclusively with oneself : seeking or concentrating on one's own advantage, pleasure, or well-being without regard for others
2 : arising from concern with one's own welfare or advantage in disregard of others <a selfish act>

Greedy:

1 : having a strong desire for food or drink
2 : marked by greed
3 : EAGER, KEEN

Greed:

: excessive or reprehensible acquisitiveness : AVARICE

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

12. Well, perhaps it's SLIGHTLY more inclusive than just money

But not much more.

Selfishness is a much more inclusive term.

[Cary]

13. So do you think Rand-ians are just selfish?

Or are they greedy?

How does this shed any light on the debate?

I think they're greedy bastards. Again, a distinction without a difference. Maybe some of them aren't greedy. Somewhere along they way the greedy bastards are taking advantage of them though.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

15. Randians are overwhelmingly libertarian

I think that they probably are, by definition, selfish. As for greedy... well... if you're a true Randian, you probably are greedy too. It's kind of tough to get around that. But I suppose it's possible.

[Cary]

17. So his distinction is stupid?

I think so, anyway.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

18. It's not really stupid, but it is pretty pointless.

It is an important distinction to make, but not for this particular argument.

[Cary]

21. So what makes more sense "for this particular argument?"

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

25. You're making way too much of it.

What would've made more sense was to avoid a semantics discussion altogether and to focus on the actual issues at hand. It really matters little whether your greedy, selfish, or both, the sentiment and the point remains the same.

[Cary]

27. My point was that I didn't think greed was a good thing,

and that was why I couldn't subscribe to Rand. I think we are better off if we help each other.

He was trying to rationalize greed as something other than greed, I guess.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

28. I don't disagree with you.

I just think you allowed the conversation to get off topic is all.

[housewolf]

26. Objectivists (Rand-ians) believe that self-interest is a virtue

They believe in the goodness of independence, individuism and self-interest.

To me, it seems that what they believe in is the "Law of the Jungle" where might makes right, self-interest in primary, survival of the fittest. The strong survive and prosper while the weak, by their very weakness prove their inferiority and immorality, thus their unworthiness.

It's a "me and mine" mentality as opposed to an "us and our" mentality of a sense of common good and mutual responsibility.

They are like the antithesis of the Sisters of Mercy who give all to help others. Think "I'm out for ME, it's all about ME, I only care if I get MINE, I only care about what belongs to ME."

That's the selfishness part of it.

[housewolf]

22. I disagree - greed

One can be greedy about money, power, food, possessions, books, etc - greed is about wanting/needing/obssessing/accumulating more than you need.

In that light, the term greed can be applied to anything that people have large collections of - books they don't read, music they don't listen to, collectible items of any sort, eating too much, drinking too much.

It's about the insatiable need to gather and posess more and more.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

24. but one can be selfish without gathering or possessing.

[housewolf]

29. Yes, I agree with that

In my mind, the two are not the same thing. I agree that one can be selfish without hoarding things. Selfishness is not wanting to share what you have. When you want "it all" or more than you need, that's where greed comes in.

[SharonAnn]

2. Yes, "what is rightfully theirs" vs "acquire through force or fraud"

[Cary]

9. I miss your point here, SharonAnn.

[Guaranteed]

20. I think that she's noting the self-serving idea of "what's rightfully

theirs," and how it might be a justification for using force or fraud.

[Cary]

23. Thanks Bull.

I think you're right. I see it now.

[maxsolomon]

3. desire is the root of all suffering

your conservative defines greed too narrowly. greed does not mean illegality.

[unblock]

4. odd definitions

one concept is self-interest within one's rights, he's calling that "selfishness".
the other is self-interest beyond one's rights, he's calling that "greed".

symantic games, which only begs the question. exactly what IS within one's rights, and still, is self-interest, even if within one's rights, a good thing?

[goodhue]

5. Greed goes beyond selfishness in desire to acquire more

Greed is an excessive desire to acquire or possess more than what one needs or deserves, especially with respect to material wealth.

Selfishness is a stinginess resulting from a concern for your own welfare and a disregard of others.

They are different only in that greed connotes desire to acquire more.

[Cary]

14. See Webster's definitions, above

[Liberal Veteran]

6. That doesn't even make sense.

Someone needed to send that Randian back to English class. "Greed" is not the same as "Theft".

The definition he gives for "greed" is all wrong.

Greed is an excessive desire for a thing (power, money, possessions, etc).

The desire to steal is not greed.

[gulliver]

7. Democrats pick your pocket. Republicans embezzle your savings.

I'll bet a lot of Republicans are feeling less secure about keeping things that are rightfully theirs now than they were under Clinton. The taxes went down, but everything else is going straight to hell.

[Fleshdancer]

16. according to dictionary.com....

Selfishness

n : stinginess resulting from a concern for your own welfare and a disregard of others


Greed
n.

An excessive desire to acquire or possess more than what one needs or deserves, especially with respect to material wealth

[Guaranteed]

19. It's just a matter of degrees, I think.

Greed is taking more, or much, much more, than you need.

Selfishness is just looking out for your own interests.

[Bridget Burke]

30. Alas for "Enlightened Self Interest"

A marking of that endangered species, the Moderate Republican. They wanted to stay rich, but found sickness & poverty troubling. They even thought a healthy economy should help everyone.

Selfishness means that you & yours (maybe) come first--who cares about anybody else? (Offending relatives could also be cut out of the will.)

Greed means that you & yours come first--but you also want to ensure that others get less. Maybe your fortune & investments remove all possible money worries for the next few generations--but you still want to kill Social Security.