Where's the Outrage? Where's the Anger?

[Stand and Fight]

AmeriCa, wake up! Why won't they wake up with the rest of us???

A draft will rouse them from their idiotic blissful slumber. That is why this anti-war movement has never taken off in regards to this war, but if you institute a draft that affects everyone, believe you me, these bastards will take to the streets. I have noticed in my study of history and society that people are only spurred forward through tragedy and what personally affects them. Let's face it folks -- while seemingly most Amerikans are able to foolishly support the self-proclaimed "war-time president," they will NOT do so when little Jack and little Jill are called to serve their country along with the "trailer trash", the "wetbacks", the "niggers," and the rest of the "have-nots" things will change. And I say this as a Black American and a veteran. Only then will the outrage come. Only then will the majority of people in this country wake up. Only then will they realize that slipping further into a totalitarian police-state will utterly destroy the precedent that has come to be known as "the great experiment." Our republic will go the way of Rome if we are not mindful of the inequities and hypocrisies that are ever-present in our every waking moment. Unfortunately, we -- the people who frequent this site -- are a minority that has been jolted into the realization that "America the Beautiful" has become "American the Pitiful." The strongest nation in the world has become bogged down in an illegal and unjust war because the AmeriCan people have fallen asleep at the wheel. My friends, do not fail to recall that the governors only rule with the consent of the governed. The Social Contract has been breached and it is up to us to forge a more revolutionary document in order to remind our elected officials -- for they are not leaders -- in Washington, D.C. that they have a responsibility, a moral obligation if you will, to protect the rights of those they represent. They do not give us those rights and they have forgotten that bit of common sense in the last few years with the advent of the nefarious Patriot Acts. None of the many crimes of this administration of woken them up, and it will take a tragedy to make it happen. Reminds me of a post I read in which the person ranted against Bush being worst than Hitler because he had personally affected that person's life. This sort of attitude is very telling in light of the fact that 6 million people died under the regime of Hitler, but Bush is worse because he's actually affected their "life." (Never mind the people who died in the hell of Auschwitz and the like -- it's all about ME! Oh the tragedy...) Why is it telling? It supports my position that only when Amerikans are directly and tragically affected by the evils of Bush will they finally develop a -- lo' and behold! -- conscience in regards to the many crimes and atrocities that are taking place in the name of our Republic. Only when they run the risk of loosing something important to them -- like their freedom to not fight in a war they never really believed in -- will they wake up from their stupor and break free of the cult of the concentration camp of the mind. Until then, my fellow conscience-prone DUers, we will simply have to wait ever so patiently for the hammer to fall... So, bring on the draft, because we want our AmeriCa back.

ON EDIT, let me spell some things out:
I am not saying that a draft will end the war. Nor am I saying that it is the only means by which the American people will wake up. But I do strongly feel that it will take personal tragedy for Americans to hold this president and his administration responsible. Otherwise, absent of mass personal tragedy, the Amerikan people will do nothing and the show will continue into Act 4, Scene 1...

End of Rant... for now.

[skylarmae]

1. touche' --- n/t

[radfringe]

115. the anger and outrage is out there

it's just unorganized...

Dean's rapid rise to the forefront of the primary race was mostly due to his acknowlegement of anger and outrage. The other candidates did not begin to receive widespread backing until they also started acknowleging the anger and outrage.

People are angry -- they just don't know how to properly channel that anger where it will be heard. We are still waiting for that leader to emerge that will say "Yeah, you're angry, you're outraged -- this is what we have to do...."

[BobbyinPortland]

2. I completely agree

But I think that the GOP knows that a draft would be suicide for president Shrub.

However, I think it's gonna happen but they'll be sly about it, like offering huge amounts of money or paid college tuition or free land in Iraq. LOL

[Stand and Fight]

5. Then perhaps there needs to be manufactured outrage.... n/t

Hell, if the Republicans can do it about Sponge Bob? Why can't we about legitimate issues?

[calimary]

41. No. They'll simply CALL IT SOMETHING ELSE.

It's all wordplay to them because PERCEPTION IS EVERYTHING. If you don't CALL IT a draft, it can't be one, can it? Never mind that it's enforced, involuntary military conscription. Just as long as it's not being CALLED a "draft," then they get away with it. AGAIN. And the America that's been taught, by now, not to question anything because it's unpatriotic, will let this one slip by. Until far too many of their own young 'uns come home in boxes. Uh - er, excuse me - that's not going to happen either because we don't talk about "boxes" any more. We call it a nice, tidied-up, antiseptic, artificial lipstick-on-a-pig term like "transfer tubes."

Their method is simple (appropriate for the simple minds against which they can use it). Just don't CALL IT a "draft." Then, it isn't one.

[Stand and Fight]

48. Bingo! We have a winner!

Doublespeak. Newspeak... George Orwell's 1984

[Morose]

50. Yeah, and you don't need a draft if you

destroy the working class economy and reduce people to a level of desperation where the military is their only option (Oh, and we've been doing this to minorities for ages).

Sure you take the occassional setback for a few months, but over time...just keep pushing down the work force and you'll keep the ranks of your military nice and full.

At least till the whole place collapses...seems like that's how all empires end.

[Stand and Fight]

53. Bingo! We have another winner!

But do you want to see it get to that point in this country? Do you really want to see the further suppression of organized labor unions? If we fail to act soon it will be too late. We are quickly reaching critical mass. We are quickly reaching the point of no return.

[TahitiNut]

3. I'm looking forward to a draft. I'd prefer Universal Service.

A democracy can only survive if it's participatory. Voting is necessary, but not sufficient. We're seeing the results of a "Let George Do It" attitude. Any people who refuse to participate in their own governance, including both national service and political office, don't deserve to live in a democracy.

[Dhalgren]

7. You are right.

If we had maintained our universal draft (and added national service as well) then wars of Empire would be all but impossible to launch or maintain. The vested interest of the whole population would make everyone a much more active participant in government and its actions.

[TahitiNut]

22. I think one of the biggest mistakes we've made was deactivating the draft.

I don't think for a nanaosecond that this country's lurch to the fascist right in 1980, only a few years after the draft was deactivated, was at all coincidental. It's easy to ignore the predatory militarist/corporatist foreign policies of this country when one's own (or one's own child's) ass isn't on the line.

It's alos easier to demonize "those people" when your contact with "them" is nonexistent. People who serve together in the military have few such illusions. It's no accident that the regional bigotries in this nation plummeted subsequent to WW2 - when veterans had the experienc of serving with "those people" - rural Americans with urban Americans, Southerners with Northerners, Westerners, with Northeasterners, Latinos with Anglos, the Neisei Battalion, and the Tuskeegee Airmen.

[FromTheLeft]

60. Finally people are starting to get what I've been flamed about everytime I

bring it up.

[forgethell]

66. Allow me to flame you again.

The draft is slavery, involuntary servitude, whatever. It is not a progressive, liberal, or, I hope, Democratic position.

There will be no draft.

[TahitiNut]

75. Bare assertions without logic or factual underpinnings.

The claim of "involuntary servitude" has been made and repudiated many times, several times in the courts. It doesn't hold water, either legally or logically.

I was a draftee. I was sent to 'Nam. I'm no fan of the military. :shrug:

[forgethell]

87. The courts

may be the final authority on the legalisms, but not on the plain meanings of the English language. Nor are they experts on logic, although you would think that they would be. They are supposed to be trained for that. LOL.

[Dhalgren]

76. It is not "slavery", it is not "involuntary servitude",

it is what the citizens of a democracy or republic must do if they wish their self-government to continue. We simply disagree, here. You think that it is safe and healthy for a democracy to hire mercenaries to protect it and I don't. I think that if citizens of a democracy want to insure its continuation, they must be willing to stand the guard. I think that the problems with this government's military adventurism stems, in part, directly from the fact that we do not have a "citizen army".

[forgethell]

85. A volunteer army

is not the same thing as a mercenary army. Citizens defending their own country, even if they do it for a living, are not at all the same as strangers who fight for the highest bidder.

But, the draft was present during Lyndon Johnson's administration. What caused his military adventurism? The draft failed to stop it, and many more lives were lost than have been so far in *'s little adventure.

[FromTheLeft]

91. This is not about those who are willing...

this is about those who are unwilling. Those who are willing to serve now have nothing to gain or lose from a draft. Rich kids and their parents who currently support the war but don't know the difference between an AK and an M-16 have a big something to lose in a draft situation...please read my post # 90.

[DaDeacon]

94. Check the facts

Lyndon Johnson's administration got the left overs of the FAILED Kennedy Southeast Asain BS. Also LBJ was being lied to by many people. Nixon Just did what he always said do "Bomb those SOBs to the stone age and get the hell out" Bush has used this war a a political tool a draft would just make this all get to ugly to be burried with PR spin. It's not the people in power the we the poeple being lied to that keeps support for these lies around.

[forgethell]

107. Still, we shouldn't

become oppressors in order to fight oppression, should we?

As for Kennedy, I wasn't aware that he was a Republican.

[Stand and Fight]

109. John Fitzgerald Kennedy was a Democrat. n/t

[forgethell]

111. That was my point n/t

[Stand and Fight]

118. Take it easy...

Kind of hard to detect sarcasm through this method of communication bub. :silly:

[forgethell]

120. Sorry, I wasn't upset.

I was responding to a previous poster who blamed LBJ's disastrous Vietnam policies on JFK. My point was that JFK was not a Republican, so that didn't make it any better.

Actually, I don't find it hard to detect on-line sarcasm at all. Context is everything. But, admittedly, part of the context is missing for most people.

[Stand and Fight]

113. Damn right... n/t

[KoKo]

78. But, how do you make sure that everyone serves?

That was why there was a movement to get rid of the draft. Also thought was back then that without a draft it would make it much harder for us to go to war again in a limited action like Vietnam.

Could we trust a Repug owned Congress to make sure that school deferrments and other loopholes would not apply? Otherwise we end up with another generation of Bushies, Wolfowitzes, Limbaugh's and the rest finding a way to get out of serving.

And, what would Bush do with a large military? I shudder to think.

I worry that we would end up with exactly what we had before. Bringing it to a vote in the House and Senate would expose hypocracy of the Repugs, though, so I supported Congressman Rangels efforts to reinstate the draft. I don't think Repugs would want to bring it back if they couldn't exempt their own from serving. But, who knows. :shrug:

[TahitiNut]

98. As long as there are poor people ...

... and as long as there are sick people unable to get care, there are plenty of "wars" to be fought. Universal National Service is both doable and morally responsible. Every person would receive basic military training of approximately two months. That training would be begun in high school and supplemented by training akin to today's Basic Training as performed by the Army, Air Force, or Navy. Every citizen would serve: male, female, gay, straight, abled, and disabled.

Subsequent to basic training, the individual would serve between 12 and 48 months in some designated role in the military, the Public Health Service, the Peace Corps, VISTA, or a variety of "internships" in the public sector.

A result of such service would be the creation of a citizenry in the inactive military reserve, subject to call up in the event of a national emergency. Upon such a call up, little additional training would be needed. At the same time, many disadvantaged youth would receive paraprofessional training and experience in vocational areas not likely to be otherwise available to them.

A full-time 'professional' military is both unnecessary and ill-advised. Senior officers and enlisted personnel should be members of a Reserve, with periods of active duty and contiuous training that maintains and develops the necessary skills.

Clearly, such a system would need to be built up over some time period, hopefully reaching full-scale in less than five or six years.

[KoKo]

100. Well, I understand what you might hope would come out of this

"National Service" but under Repugs it could be "Hitler Youth." That would worry me.

Also the Swiss have something like this and the wealthier families send their kids out of the country to go to American schools to avoid it. I don't know..I think what you say sounds good, but in the wrong hands it's worrysome.

As a female I would refuse to participate in military training, so I suppose I could be forced into "clerical" or "physicians assistant," "First Aid," or something. But, if I was forced to go into ROTC training I wouldn't do it. How do you deal with the folks who just hate violence and feel that diplomacy is the way, unless another Hitler comes along that threatens the whole world. (not saying here what I think about Bush and his possible threat to the whole world since "Agent Mike" might be on here). But the thought of Tom Delay and the rest enjoying the whole country being "trained in weaponry" and "bioterror/laser weapons" gives me the creeps. :shrug:

[TahitiNut]

101. People who 'hate' something are always better armed ...

... when they know something about what they 'hate.' The degree to which mental indoctrination works is directly correlated to the percentage of 'trainees' willing (and eager) to be complicit 'enforcers.' I've been through this - both at a military academy (USCGA), ROTC, and in Army basic training. I know from experience how military indoctrination works.

I'm fairly confident that we're not yet close to the "Hitler Youth" danger. There's no doubt, however, that we're moving in that direction. My goal would be a military that's about 1/4th of the size of our today's military and a Defense budget that's 1/5th of today's.

[KoKo]

108. Again...I hear and understand what you "hope."

But after the "whore politicians" take hold of your idea what's left of your "true" ambitions for reform. :shrug:

I understand what you say...and maybe it's something to work for in the future (like the "Star Treck" Series where we can become "One" working for "Global Peace."....which is what I would hope for), but in the hands of this Repug Run Fiat....can we hope that your and my hopes and ambitions for National Service Options (to a certain extent) would ever be what "we" envision it? Would not, Hitler Youth be closer to the Bushie/DeLay/Gingrich/PNAC/Cold War version of THEIR Ambitions?

I think what you are saying is maybe like a JFK Peace Corp, where we train our average citizens/youth. But, your vision is "militaristic" and mine would be "Diplomatic Corps."

But, I agree with you that our youth are not involved in Democracy. The issue is do we want them to be involved with "militaristically defending Democracy" or "My WAY" which would be diplomatically preparing them to defend what we Americans of OUR age group ...used to think, OUR Democracy was really about and that it was worth defending.

Sorry...Tahiti...I know my posts are often seen as "disjointed" by many DU'ers. I tried to put it the best way I could....

Let me sum it up: "DIPLOMACY OVER WAR!" and intense negotiations backed up by superb intelligence resources who use "carrot and stick" OVER and OPPOSED TO: "clandestine/corporatist" interests with a syringe full of crap, a plane crash, suicide, arranged terrorist attack (for convience) or a
cleverly financed Coup, to solve America's ambitions internationally and nationally."

:shrug:

[Dhalgren]

4. Excellent rant!

And I agree - the draft must be instated. If the burden of these wars of Empire is not spread across the populace, they will never motivate themselves to oppose these wars of choice (greed and blood-lust). It is a terrible thing, but it has to be done - unless we are willing to simply rail against the murder from the safety of our computer screens...

[BrendaStarr]

30. What are you doing?

Do you march?

Do you even get out on the mixed message boards?

Do you daily write a well thought out letter to an editor?

Because just sitting on a nice safe liberal message board where you won't get your feelings hurt or have to think very hard is no more political activism than watching TV.

If you want to win and save our country from the fascists you should be doing one of the above an hour or two every day.

Because Germany had it's groups of concerned liberals too, and when the Nazi's power came to fruition because the liberals hid in their little groups they just went out and rounded the people in those groups up.

[Dhalgren]

36. Thanks for the advice...

[FromTheLeft]

61. A quote you may appreciate

Martin Niemöller:
In Germany they came first for the Communists and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a communist. Then they came for the Jews and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew. Then they came for the trade unionists and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist. Then they came for the Catholics and I didn't speak up because I was a Protestant. Then they came for me - and by that time, there was no one left to speak up.

[Postman]

6. You're wrong.

A draft, if it were to happen RIGHT NOW, yes, WOULD put people in the streets protesting - maybe, for the reasons you've stated above.

But, If an attack were to happen on this country, again. A major attack that equals or surpasses 9/11, it could be used as justification for a draft and it would provide the political cover for those in Congress to escape the repercussions you've stated above because, the public would see it as a necessary evil. And that is how this administration would use such an incident.

It would be the perfect propaganda moment. Using an attack for jingoistic, nationalistic rebel-rousing flag-waving justification to enact the draft with no political repercussions because the public sees it as necessary to "defend" the country.

I have to wonder if re-instating a draft will provide the desired result of holding politicians' feet to the fire. Are there many families of National Guard, Reserve, and Regular Army advising their politicians of their unhappiness with the war in Iraq? If they are, they aren't having a significant effect to bring the troops home.

[Dhalgren]

9. But I think that the "public" would be much less likely

to fly off half cocked if the "publics" children were the ones being asked to die. Just MO.

[Postman]

12. You're not taking into consideration the immediate events surrounding...

the enactment of a draft.

The threat of the public to "fly off half cocked if the publics children were at risk" only holds water if a draft were enacted for no pressing issue that the public doesn't see as necessary.

A MAJOR ATTACK will bring the public around to "seeing the light" that a draft would be necessary.

After Pearl Harbor, people were not protesting in the streets because the draft was underway.

After Tonkin Gulf, people were not protesting in the streets.

Only after the public realized that the Vietnam War was a waste of life and communism in the Far-East was not a threat did the draft become an issue.

[Dhalgren]

23. I think we are talking "apples and oranges", here.

If the military were made up of everyone's children, then there would not be this monolithic "military vote", every congressperson and senator who voted to allow the president to go to war without a declaration would be in danger of losing office. The half a million soldiers rotating through Iraq would be average citizens - not professional soldiers with irons in the fire. The whole scenario would be completely different. The real Pearl Harbor was an attack that the country had to respond to - so every citizen did - I have no qualms with that. The Gulf of Tonkin Resolution took place when war protests were already taking place - just not terribly wide spread. But because everyone had a stake in that particular murderous mess, made the protests expand intensify. I guess I just don't see where you are coming from, unless it is from a purely pacifist standpoint. In that case, I understand you argument, but will simply say that the US will never adopt a pacifist stance regarding national security. We have to simply find a way to insure that every citizen has a stake in whatever our government elects to do.

[Stand and Fight]

13. I think you miss the point.

So, are you saying that you believe the public would be okay with a draft IF there was another "Pearl Harbor type incident" or 9/11 incident?

If so, I have to wonder how that makes my argument wrong, because I was not talking about another 9/11 type incident. I was talking about what would be necessary to outrage the American people -- not what would serve to make them more complacent to the crimes.

[Postman]

16. I think you are correct in assuming the public would be

in the streets protesting a draft if they saw no need for one.

What I am saying is that for a draft to happen again, a major attack would be needed because in THAT way they could avoid the political retribution that you correctly stated would happen if a draft were to occur under other circumstances.

It gives them the excuse to enact a draft and the public at large would be accepting of this because of the grave situation the country would be in.

Its called "nationalism" and they would use any propaganda tool they could to get their agenda enacted.

[Stand and Fight]

17. Just a question, Postman...

Are you of the opinion that they would "manufacture consent" through dubious means?

[Postman]

25. Hell yes.

Where are the WMD's in Iraq?

Why was Valerie Plame exposed?

Why did they try to link 9/11 with Saddam Hussein?

If "democracy" in the Middle East is one goal, why did they have to go to war in Iraq to do it? Why didn't Bush and Co. start with his allies like Saudi Arabia, Kuwait etc., etc.?

Ever heard of Operation Northwoods? Look it up.

Come on, the whole history of US expansion is full of "manufactured consent" on many issues.

[Discord]

29. well the only thing I can see that would appease

people about the use of the draft is a threat from a military power. There are many people who know that terrorists aren't fought through manpower, it's fought by good use of intelligence. A draft would do NOTHING in a war on terror. And short of some nation landing a warship in Boston Harbor would convince me that a draft was necessary. People in this country will VOULENTARRILY ENLIST if they support the war that is being fought. Of age Americans would willingly join if they believed thier lives and sacrifice was to a just cause, and that the government and military would do everything in thier power to ensure thier best chances of survival and safety both during AND after thier enlistment. The fact that a shrinking percentage of post-high school Americans are enlisting is a good indicator of how a draft would be recived in this country. Could they manufacture some support for a draft? Sure. But it wouldn't be nearly enough to do it without larger ramifications that benifits.

[FromTheLeft]

90. Support of a draft

is not about fighting a certain enemy, it is about fighting our urge to use military force. People fear death only for themselves and for those they know and love. If we place every American in a possition where the soldiers in harms way would be their brothers, fathers, sisters, mothers, aunts, uncles...the people would be a little more careful about who they elect. They would not elect war mongers because it would be their family in the firing line. You ask any rich republican if they support the war right now and they will tell you yes. You put any rich republicans child in combat duty and ask them that same question...

[Discord]

99. of course they would change thier minds.

always changes when it hits home.

[Stand and Fight]

42. Hey!

I completely agree with you. I knew right away...
There are coincidences and then there are co-incidents. Any questions?

[Voltaire]

95. Ding Ding Ding Ding Ding Ding!!!!

They WILL have a draft. And they will engineer another catastrophe like they did with 9/11 in order to achieve it.

And that's the TRUTH, RUTH!

[ElsewheresDaughter]

8. draft young republicans!

[Dhalgren]

10. We cannot survive as a democracy with a

mercenary army. The military must be a "civilian" military. Made up of everyone's children. Otherwise, no one cares who we kill or how many of "ours" are killed or for what. We'll just hire some more "undesirables" to fill the holes...

[nashville_brook]

18. ironic -- nixon thought an all-volunteer military

would de-militarize the country, when it really was the final nail in the coffin of making us a banana republic -- to paraphrase William Ervin Thompson.

it was a radical transformation that looked like a boo boo to the social thinkers in the 70s -- now we see the project in the final stages of completion by his minions rumsfeld and cheney.

a draft will pull the rug out from under these fuckers. they can only get away with warcrimes when the military is run by halliburton.

[bowens43]

11. There is no notion more ridiculous then

'a draft will end the war'.

[Stand and Fight]

15. You misunderstand my post.

Never said that a draft would end the war. Read the post. I said a draft could potentially wake the American people up -- not end the war. However, I do agree with you that there is no notion more ridiculous than a draft will end the war. I just think you are not understanding what I am saying in my post -- in order for Americans to wake up and stand up to this administration it is going to take this administration doing something ridiculous like a draft. Otherwise, the criminals will continue to get away with their crimes.

[Postman]

19. I know what you're saying....

if enough people are suffering, they will force the gov't to be responsible.

However, THEY can avoid that issue altogether if the public sees a draft to be necessary, thus a major attack on US soil.

[Stand and Fight]

21. Understood...

I posted a question for you above.

[Discord]

32. An attack on our soil in NOT enough...

if it's in the same vein as 9/11. I elaborated a bit higher in this tread on why I think a terrorist attack would not be enough to appease dissent about a draft.

[FromTheLeft]

92. If there is another

attack on our soil a draft won't be nessecary. There will be 10s of thousands ready and waiting to sign up.

[Discord]

97. I'd even be one of them. nt

[forgethell]

27. But why do

you keep thinking the Republicans will publicly commit suicide for our benefit? The only people publicly talking about re-instating the draft are Democrats. The Repukes will kill it, and we'll be tarred-and-feathered with it.

Golly. No wonder we keep losing elections.

[Dhalgren]

33. Being a true (small "d") democrat

is not always popular, but it isn't something I want to abandon, myself...

[forgethell]

34. I'm not sure how to interpret that

as it relates to your postion on the draft???

[Dhalgren]

39. A real democracy or republic must have a citizen army.

When the military is turned over to mercenary forces, the people lose the power to control the military. The military is difficult enough to control when every citizen has a vested interest in it, but to remove any direct responsibility for the military from the people's hands and the democracy cannot last long - just my opinion.

[TahitiNut]

40. I completely agree.

Even the "senior" positions (senior officers and NCO's) should be reservists, devoting a significant part of their lives to civilian pursuits. I eschew a full-time "professional" military. Unless a person achieves and maintains some level of "success" and responsibility in civilian pursuits, I wouldn't trust them at all as a "senior" officer or NCO.

The pay? Minimum Wage at the entry level and a maximum that's a low multiple of the minimu wage at the senior levels. If people think the minimum wage isn't enough they can damned well increase it!!

[forgethell]

43. IMO we do

have a citizen army. Think National Guard & Reserves. At any rate, the draft is the wrong way to have one. it subordinates the rights of the individual citizen to the demands of the government. It enabled that great Democrat, Lyndon Johnson, to prosecute the Vietnam War long past the time when his incompetence had managed to lose it.

[Dhalgren]

65. The NG and Reserves are still "voluntary",

not conscript. This is just a place where we disagree on how best to protect a democracy from enemies within. If the whole population is rotating through the military services, then the military becomes just a microcosm of the population at large and what is done with that military and how that military, itself, behaves becomes more in the control of the people. It took five years of bloody protest in the 60s before the government acted to redress the citizens' demands - what did the government do? It began to dismantle the draft. The solution was not to listen to and heed the citizens, but to remove what the government saw as the problem - no draft = no protests. But because the Movement had become so strong by that time, it continued to fight (but at a reduced level). It was five more years before the overloaded choppers were flying from the roof-tops of Saigon. Where is the outrage, now? - a damed good question...

[forgethell]

68. Listen to yourself.

Every word you said validates my thesis. No draft, and the problems (as you say, the government saw them)began to diminish. So why are they going to reinstate the draft?? They're not. And if we do or make the attempt, we will pay for it at the ballot box. And we would deserve the licking we got. Stupidity should have a severe penalty, otherwise, how do you learn.

[Dhalgren]

74. I am not saying that a draft WILL be instated,

I am saying a draft SHOULD be instated. I don't think that a draft feeds the war machine, I think a draft ultimately kills a war machine. I am not speaking of a "war machine" in a pacifist way. If the democracy needs to be defended then that is what a military is for. I mean "war machine" as in what we have now. Will this government (Dems and Repubs) activate a draft? Probably not. Is required military or national service needed for the health of a democracy? I think, yes.

[forgethell]

83. Slavery is not

required for the health of the Republic. That is so against everything a liberal believes in.

[nashville_brook]

14. first they came for the terrorists...

then they came for the immigrants...
then they came for our children to fight their war...

i couldn't agree with you more. and i believe they are preparing for it.

http://johnsoncity.blogspot.com/2005/02/country-bracing-for-draft-lone-star.html

i think we are well prepared, too with powerful means of communication and networking.

bush and his crimial minions are anarchists and don't care to control the outcome of their actions. they are making HUGE waves and only have a short-term vision for success, ie, get as much money and grab as much oil as possible. as a draft looms on the horizon we WILL use our experience of prior drafts to build a powerful resistance. they will plunge headlong into it without considering what it will do to US -- they don't care about US. we will crush them in the end.

[Stand and Fight]

20. My great fear...

My great and ruling fear is that they will be successful in their manipulation of public support for their heinous aims. My great fear is that they will not fail and absent a free and non-corporate press, they will not fail.

[etherealtruth]

28. Very legitimate fear...

...one only needs to look at the last four years...

[ewagner]

37. best point

"...absent a free and non-corporate press, they will not fail."

[nashville_brook]

38. lets say they don't fail -- what do *we* do

i propose we start thinking seriously about what to do. if i were of draft age i would like to know how to maybe go into hiding or create an objectors movement with serious civil disobedience. this is the fun part. we're talking about youngsters -- 18 to what? 20-something -- they've got the energy to wreak some havok. i'll bring the beer.

[Stand and Fight]

44. I'm 27 myself...

Trust me. It is not far from my mind. I love this country and I will not stand by while she is destroyed.

[nashville_brook]

49. that's the spirit!

i actually stumbled upon DU with the thought of a REAL VIABLE underground existing. so i typed the words democratic and underground in the url line. i'm 38. spent many nights on the floors of churches and friends' houses prepping for actions or panel discussions etc.

maybe we evolve that approach to relocate draftees, help them find work, etc.

[Stand and Fight]

51. Yes...

This keyboard brigade shit is not enough, quite frankly. I've come across so many wonderful and truly passionate, intelligent, and SANE people on here that truly do love this country. You know, the real patriots that love America and don't like what has happened to America? Not these jack-boot war-mongering fuck-tarts who re-elected the pResident. Anyhow, to arrive at my point... I'd like to form an actual real world -- not virtual one -- of activist who want to put this country back on track. Who love America enough to put down their keyboards, get from behind their desks, and make a defiant and staunch stand for what we KNOW to be right. Because let's face it these discussion boards while great places to brainstorm and meet other like-minded people initially are -- to use Garrison's phrase --"concentration camps of the mind."

[nashville_brook]

55. we're figuring things out. nothing wrong with that. gotta catalyze

that's part of it. aufheben. the dialectic. i'm reading ivan illich again for the first time. i think we need to reach out to our political "cousins" like libertarians, and turn some of this mess bush has made on it's head.

i'll unpack this soon in a post.

[forgethell]

24. That's why, despite

what the Kool-aid drinkers on DU think, there will never be a draft. The neo-cons are way too smart to undermine themselves like that.

Yet, much as I would like to see them out of power, I cannot think that we should become the oppressor by supporting a return to the draft.

Several reasons:

First, the American people will remember which party was supporting the return of the draft.

Second, it's a losing battle. A Republican Congress won't pass it; a Republican President won't sign it. And see reason #1.

Third, and most important, it's wrong. We fought in the 60s and 70s to rid America of this legalized slavery. We fought to rid the Imperial Presidency of the power to draft young men to wage wars of aggression. These reasons are still valid. A draft would not make things better. A draft would make it easier to go into Iraq, Syria, wherever.

Do we actually have any principles that we are willing to stand on, regardless of cost? Or are we just looking to return to power, regardless of cost to our values, our very souls? If so, run to the right like Mrs. Clinton is now doing. She has a very good chance to return to the WH, probably the best of any Democrat as of today. Is she advocating a return to the draft, or is she leaving it to the fringe elements like Rangel?

There will be no draft, you heard it here first.

[Dhalgren]

35. The battle in the 60s was not against the draft

as a form of "slavery", it was against the Vietnam War. People were burning their draft cards because they did not support the war, not because the draft was somehow unAmerican. The draft was viewed as what citizens were supposed to do to serve their democratic country. It was when our leaders took us into an unjust war, that is when young men said "hell no, we won't go!" Mohamed Ali said he would go to the draft, if he could be guaranteed that he would not have to go fight. I don't think the draft protests in the 60s were about anything but the Vietnam War - at least that's how I remember it as a teenager approaching draft age at the time.

[forgethell]

46. No, it was against the draft.

Only the true leftist was against the War. The American public was not interested in the war until it was totally apparent that LBJ had no intention of trying to win the war, and was simply sending American young men into a meat-grinder for no purpose that was any longer discernible.

I was of draft age at the time, and took an intense interest in the subject. And that's how I remember it. And I did serve in the US Army.

[Dhalgren]

58. I served in the Army, too

and I remember the war protests very well. The protests were against the draft, because of the war. No war - no draft protest; no draft protest - war continues. The fact of the draft was the reason for the war protests, otherwise, I agree with you the early protests were only by leftists who were against the war as unwarranted aggression; later the protests became huge because more and more citizens were unwilling to fight in an unjust war.

[forgethell]

71. Or a war

that their leaders were not trying to win. IMO, you are analyzing what happened incorrectly. The protest was against the draft with protest against the war as the rationalization.

No draft, no protests, at least not any major ones. Not in America.

[Dhalgren]

77. I think the correct analysis is

No draft = no war protests - and - no war = no draft protests. There had been a draft in place all through the 50s and early 60s with no protests. The draft protests did not start until the war began to become unpopular with the kids who were being drafted for it. And support among the parents of those kids followed.

[forgethell]

81. Perhaps it

became unpopular because they stood a genuine chance of dying??

But it doesn't matter, the good, if any, that a draft would do is fat outweighed by the bad. It would be a disastrous policy.

Anyway, we can't get it passed, and the Republicans won't. They are not so stupid as to fall into a clumsy trap like this. If we had the power to install the draft; we would be the ones in the government and could stop the war without it.

[sendero]

26. I agree with you...

... in principle. But IMHO it is the economy that is going to put the squeeze on people before a draft does - and that is when folks are going to wake up and hold the administration responsible.

[Stand and Fight]

45. That's another possibility as well.

Likewise, I also agree with you in principle, friend.

[u2spirit]

31. I have outrage fatigue

I'm not sure how much more outrage I have in me before I go recharge my betteries

[Stand and Fight]

47. I will not rest...

I will not rest until this country is back on track. I'm active in politics and will continue my outrage till the day I die if necessary. But yeah... I feel a little fatigued myself at times.

[Discord]

52. not fatigued

but worried if our parties leaders have the balls to do what it takes.

[Stand and Fight]

54. That's the first problem we have to snuff out.

There are not really leaders. They are representatives. As long as we expect them to lead we lose the power that is invested to "We the People" within our Constitution. We've allowed them to "lead" too long. It is high time that the addle-brained in Washington -- discounting the few courageous, like Boxer and Conyers -- be led to do the right thing and bring sanity back into our great national discourse.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

56. Another Option I Wouldn't Put Past Them - A Foreign Legion

To avoid negative political repercussions, which seems to be one of the driving forces in the Bush Administration, I wouldn't put past them the decision to begin a major ad campaign in foreign countries to offer large bonuses and American citizenship to any volunteers for the U.S. Army. It worked for Rome, as the Roman Army eventually had a majority of outlanders fighting in it. I think the Bush Administration is too crafty to reinstate the draft and suffer the political backlash that would result, if it can help it.

[forgethell]

57. No, that's way

too French for the neo-cons.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

59. The French Foreign Legion is not all that foreign

The original appeal of the Legion in the old days was the fact they accepted everyone, even those with criminal records or even prosecutions pending against them in foreign countries. After the Russian Revolution, many Russians volunteered and after WWII a lot of ex-German soldiers joined. But I think that generally the majority of enlistees in the French Foreign Legion have been French citizens. The Spanish had a similar elite corps called "La Bandera", fighting in the Spanish colonies in North Africa.

But I would be curious to know how many US soldiers dying in Iraq are actually foreign citizens. Anyone know where this information can be obtained? I think that it would be interesting to find out if the number of US alien soldiers grows in the coming years.

[forgethell]

63. I'd be curious about that, too.

Although the Legion now accept French citizens, it is my understanding that they did not always, except for the officer corps. I could certainly be mistaken. But even if I am, it does not affect the validity of my argument, which is that the concept of actively recruiting citizens of other countries to fight and earn citizenship, in a special branch of the army, is way, way too French for the present government, or, IMO, the people of the United States.

[Stand and Fight]

70. Sorry... They do something JUST like that already.

They already have that. Seriously. I will look it up for you.

ON EDIT: Yep, here it is... I knew this one because I was still in the military when they made the announcement. Here's the link:

http://federalvoice.dscc.dla.mil/federalvoice/020911/citizen.html

[mod mom]

62. I have outrage 24/7. I too think a draft will force middle America to

open their eyes. It will only happen if they might be forced to send their children. Althought I am 100% anti war, I support Rep Charles Rangel in this attempt to allow no draft exemptions. Let the repubs send their kids!

[forgethell]

64. So, you're willing

to sacrifice good Dem kids, too, in order to snag a few Republican kids? Who, after all, are notresponsible for their parent's politics.

Very Democratic!! <sarcasm??>

The draft is slavery.

You heard it here first. There will be no draft. The Republicans will not be so stupid as to pass or sign a draft law. If the Democrats are in power, they will have no need, or desire, Rangel notwithstanding.

[mod mom]

69. Of course not. It will take the draft to cause the American People to wake

up and see what this regime is about. We must address the problem-*. We need major opposition to do this. I am 100% anti-war. I teach my children to use their words to solve conflict . * did not do this.

[forgethell]

72. A draft will

enable the regime to fight larger scale wars. You will not be able to turn the draft on, win power, and turn it back off so easily. Then there will be this great standing army ready to invade Saudi Arabia, or China, or wherever, whenever another Lyndon Johnson gets into the White House.

Some things are just too corrosive of our values to be used, even if they would work for the purpose intended. Think of Gandalf, refusing the One Ring, "Understand me, Frodo, I would use this Ring for good, but through me it would work great evil." Or something like that.

Try reading The Traveler in Black, by John Brunner, a wonderful fantasy, the theme of which is that getting your dearest wishes almost always leads to total and unmitigated disaster.

[mod mom]

84. the threat of sending your kids, will force people back to reality

* has used out-sourcing of jobs to feed his war mongering. The military recruitment is not working, how will the theo-cons fill their needed boots?
DRAFT. Right now it is the poor who is fighting. Poor Man's blood, Rich mans war. We need middle class outrage to stand up to the thugs. We need those possibly faced with being drafted to join us in protest. This is what caused the end of the Vietnam War.

One note: At a bu$h protest this summer, we were chanting "send your kids".
Their(young republicans) response was "no way, too bad losers" . These people have no problem sending poor kids to fight for their comfortable way of life, but just look how many of the fearless leaders have actually served. They don't want to get their hands dirty. I hope the poor will refuse to enlist. they should not pay the ultimate sacrifice for rethug lies.

[Stand and Fight]

86. You've got it, mod mom.

It is the principle behind the idea. The protest against the war did not become HOT until the draft and the full scope of what was going on hit the American people. I am sorry to hear that there are Americans so far removed from traditional American sensibilities as to comment, "No way, too bad losers." This is distressing because it is not just apathy, but stubborn idiotic hate.

[amjucsc]

67. I wonder though, how many would go willingly...

If the freepers are convinced that they are fighting a just and decent war, then they might go off without complaint. Let's hope I'm wrong though.

[Stand and Fight]

73. That's the point of the post.

I have no problem with a draft when it is necessary to defend this country or our allies in a legitimate time of war -- like WWII. However, the whole point of the post is that I don't believe that the FReepers would stand for it, because they sure don't seem to be enlisting in droves. They're not even enlisting when it is well known that their President is taking a lot of crap over the fact that there are not enough troops in Iraq. They'll scream "Support our Troops," but duck and dodge with the dissenters against this war when the Johnny recruiter comes into town. What better way to support the troops than being a battle buddy in the streets of Iraq? What better way to support their president than signing up to fight his war? So, I guess the point in my OP is two-fold:

1. A draft would wake the Bush-bots up to the reality around them.

2. A draft would reveal them for their hypocrisy.

[amjucsc]

79. While I do hope that you are right...

(if it ever comes to that, perish the thought...)

A lot of freeps would probably shrug it off and go as a Patriotic duty. I don't know how many people would have their basic political outlooks changed by a draft. Some, certainly, but I wonder if it would be enough to get the Republicans out of DC.

[Stand and Fight]

80. Worked for the Republicans after Vietnam...

Why can't it work for us after the Middle East? (Notice I said "the Middle East," and not Iraq or Afghanistan? :evilgrin: )

[amjucsc]

110. True

But I'm not sure that the cultural perception of these two wars is identical. If we should remain in Iraq for a few more years, hopefully some Republicans will come around. Then again they do seem to be pretty thoroughly brainwashed...

[bush_is_wacko]

82. Yes, I am a middle class white woman living in the suburbs and

even I can see you are right. These people need to see the dead soldiers caskets. EVERY LAST ONE OF THEM in order to to realize we have avenged the murder of 3000 American citizens with nothing but the dead bodies of 1500 MORE American children and somewhere in the neighborhood of 200,000 Iraqi children!

[Stand and Fight]

89. 'Murkins in Dubyaland...

Why are Americans still so silent?

They want to stick their collective heads up their collective nether regions so as to avoid the ugly reality of the War of Terror in attempt to chase the white rabbit. (War of Terror? Freudian slip or ugly truth?) They want to forget all about the unjustness of the War on Iraq and the lies leading up to it. They want to delude themselves into thinking that the kids, KIDS, dying in Iraq -- both American and Middle Eastern -- are "casualties of the march of Freedom" when it reality it is the quest for OIL.

Blood for oil, blood for oil. I did not believe this while I was in the military until I started digging -- it didn't take reading anyone's book either because it is all there on historical record and in the news. Like Alice, the Amerikan people have chased security into into the dark, dismissive, and comforting hole of forced and fretted security. Unfortunately, the white rabbit went the way of diplomacy, honor, and sensibility, and patriotism has become the wretched Queen of Hearts intent on revenge, "Off with their heads, off with their heads!"

So, now we are all privy to the Mad Hatters tea party for his big name friends -- Halliburton to name a one-- and the madness that is apparent is shut out by the overwhelming childish gullibility put forward in the guise of baseball and apple pie politics. Welcome to Dubyaland folks!

[bush_is_wacko]

102. Yes indeed American have lost heir collective minds in ASTOUNDING

NUMBERS. I think 911 made that possible and if you read or remember some of the stories about how Americans were suffering from all sorts of mental maladies and heading off to their local family physicians for medication to stop the pain you can get a pretty good idea of why they don't want to wake up.

I am one of those Americans that had previously lived and triumphed over incredible emotional pain and suffering. Over a eight year period of time 3 family members died of AIDS, both sets of grandparents died of heart disease, stroke, and broken hearts, a childhood friend of my brothers died in a horrific and widely publicized construction accident, my father had a heart attack and triple bypass surgery, my brother was diagnosed with type one diabetes, my cousin who's mother died of AIDS had to have a sixth open heart surgery to replace a defective valve she was born with, my mother became gravely ill (I'm sure over stress, she is better now, but still sick), my father in law died of lung cancer, and 4 family members underwent treatment for what we were told was terminal cancer. (They are all alive and well today thanks to family support and modern medicine.)

I have seen the effects of great turmoil and real tragedy on people. Tragedy can become one mans triumphant return to a life worth living or it can bring people so far down to their knees they are unable to see any hope in the foreseeable future. 911 did that to people. We are fighting mass depression, mass awakening, and mass confusion, from the effects of tragedy.

I don't know how to begin to help people heal from that tragedy, but I know there is hope on the other side of tragedy. I've been there.

[Stand and Fight]

112. Fantastic post!

I completely agree with everything you had to say, and I can completely empathize with you having experienced the deaths of several family members in the past few years. I agree with you that the tragedy of 9/11 is surely the reason so many people have seemingly gone into a sort of hibernation.

In fact, I'd even venture to say that part of their fractured and incomplete healing process may involve their displacement of their own feelings onto George W. Bush. The highly unpopular president suddenly had to deal with an extraordinarily difficult event. Maybe Americans thought to themselves, "If I think it is difficult for me it must be so hard for him. That poor man..." I think this may be central to the reason why so many people continue to remain so fiercely loyal to Bush. Awakening them from that self-imposed slumber may prove most difficult and most likely impossible...

[bush_is_wacko]

121. I don't think it is impossible... One of the phases of grieving is anger

we have a whole lot of Americans out there who are stuck in the anger phase of grieving. A good psychologist would recognize their blood lust as the phase of grieving and guide them through it. Unfortunately, their family doctors and the crisis in our health care resources and money may leave them stuck there for a very long time. this anger will lead many of them right back tho their doctors office for treatment of stress related illnesses. I would bet money there are a lot of people out there switching from anti-depressant to anti-depressant because their family doctors don't recognize what they are going through or have no clue how to really address the problem.

Those deaths in my family were many years ago. Some as long as twenty years ago and It has only been in the las five or so years that I have seen some of the members of my family come out of that anger. * is riding high on emotional trauma for sure. I just wish there was some effort in TV broadcasting to subliminally move Americans forward. It might work?! Maybe I am just fooling myself.

[Grooner Five]

88. Where's the draft?

Actually having or proposing one may inspire some of that outrage and anger.

Otherwise, I don't see how folks are going to get riled up.

[Spinoza]

93. A draft, any draft

is government imposed slavery. Forcing someone to fight in a war against their will is vicious and horrible. I don't understand how anyone who considers themselves a progressive can ever support a draft. Hell, back in the 60s and early 70s we thought that ANYONE who was in favor of the (existing) draft was the worst of right-wing fascists. "HELL NO, WE WON'T GO". And HELL NO to any new draft!

[Stand and Fight]

96. Precisely...

I think you're missing the crux of the argument here Spinoza.... You'd do your namesake some credit to READ the post and think it over before you respond.

[Spinoza]

103. Read every word.

I understand the argument and I will NEVER, for any reason, support a fucking draft!

[Stand and Fight]

105. Suit yourself.

[WilliamPitt]

104. Paragraph breaks are your friend

My eyes...

[Stand and Fight]

106. Thanks for the input to the discussion.

Just to let you know I was at work when I wrote and posted this. I did not have the luxury of being able to fully proofread as much as I would have liked to, so while paragraphs are sure friends, I am positive people got the drift about the draft.

[thecai]

114. Another Great Thread

Started by Stand and Fight. Personally, I'm appalled at the ignorance of so many Americans who cannot see history repeating itself, following in the footsteps of Hitler. It's disgraceful and many people will not wake up until it's too late.
But in the meantime, don't stop "ranting", Stand and Fight. You do so much to raise awareness. Keep up the good work!

[Stand and Fight]

119. Merci beaucoup! n/t

[RedTail Wolf]

116. Been asking that since the election

Until we take to the streets in MASSIVE numbers Bush thinks he is unstoppable and , Rummy is King.Cheney sits back and pulls all the strings. We must take the country back block by block, town by town, and state by state the way Rove took it away from us with his devious plans going back to his high school days. He is the ultimate sleaze and until, we defeat him we are doomed to loose. We must expose him for the low life scum sucker he is.


RedTail Wolf

[Disturbed]

117. "They would not elect war mongers."

The Silverspoon Sociopath was against nation building, remember? Iraq has WMDs, remember?

This Govt. has Saddam in prison and the Iraqis have democracy which will spread to the rest of the ME. The troops are fighting for freedom and democracy. Most American think this way.

If the U.S. troops weren't getting killed and maimed in Iraq most American would not even think about Iraq being illegally invaded and occupied. No complaints about Afghanistan that I have read or heard about.

A draft wouldn't stop any Govt. from invading other countries. I don't think that Vietnam was stopped because of the Draft or the protests. I believe it was economics that caused the withdrawl.

[Q]

122. "We've been down so damn long that it looks like up to us"

With apologies to Morrison.

The 'fascists' in control of this country HAVE learned from history. No...not from Vietnam and such. History has taught them that the people of any country can be manipulated by nationalism, fear and hate.

They followed the Nazi playbook to the letter: Use the church and corporations to protect the 'new' government. Control rallies by allowing ONLY supporters to attend. Use Brownshirts to intimidate the opposition on the web, at protests, peace marches and gatherings. But most importantly...the Brownshirts keep the media on the 'right' side of the issues.

And of course they have their enablers. Opposition parties that no longer oppose. Legislators that rubber stamp laws that enrich their corporate partners and protect the illegal government as they wage 'preemptive' wars, plunder the treasury and rape the world's resources.

Where's the outrage? Where was it in 1930s Germany?