What do the freepers hate as much as we do?

[Ian David]

I don't think we're going to convince Republicans that we're right about things like gay marriage, the wall between church and state, affirmative action, etc.

But what kinds of things can we tell them that will open their eyes to just how awful the republicans and Bush are treating them?

What audiences can we target what specific messages to?

How can we reach these targeted audiences?

Should we start a special forum called "Common Ground" or something just to discuss these things?

A republican friend of mine told me something like this:

"The Republican party is controlled by only a few thousand wealthy individuals looking out for their own financial best-interest. The people who vote for them are ignorant, gullible people who can be agitated by things like gay marriage into voting against their own best interests."

Of course, I asked him, "So, you're willing to be a member of a party that you know is willfully and cruelly exploiting the most vulnerable members of society?"

His answer was, "Well, I have a lot of political capital and personal connections at stake in the party."

Meanwhile the guy is making shit money and has been fucked-over by his party leadership at every turn.

GOD I HATE REPUBLICANS!!!

[Syrinx]

1. Interesting Question

I'll take my best stab: THE MEDIA. Even though they're on their side.

[ComerPerro]

2. Supposedly they hate big Government, deficits, uncontrolled spending

And government handouts.

[Syrinx]

3. haha

That's funny ain't it?

[coloradodem2005]

8. Only when it is for worthless social programs.

Like welfare and making sure that everyone gets healthcare

When the deficits are due to us pouring money into the military industrial complex or "Faith-based initiatives", then it is okay to have all that.

[NoodleBoy]

4. SNAKES!!!

There's one thing you'll find both Dennis Kucinich and Pat Buchannen standing on their chairs like little girls shouting "KILL IT!! KILL IT!!" if one was ever in the same room as them.

[mermaid]

5. All's I Can Say Is

:wtf:

This guy is more worried about "political capital" and "personal connections" than the state of his wallet...and is willing, thus, to vote against his own, and his family's best interests...in order to maintain that??

And they think WE'RE strange??

:wtf:

[Ian David]

9. No shit. I consider the guy "my personal project"

More than once, after a lot of blood, sweat, tears and gray hair, I have gotten him to change his mind about things.

For example:

1) I got him so frustrated with Bush that he refused to vote in the 2004 election. It took months of pissing-off one another, though.

2) I convinced him that "The Patriot Movement" is a cover for neo-nazi racist conspiracy nuts. That took about three years.

So, if I am willing to suffer, I think I can make a difference.

Right now, I've almost gotten him to see that Bush and the neo-con death cult are not "good for Israel."

I still hate Republicans.

1) Child molesters
2) Republicans
3) Terrorists
4) Serial Killers
5) Telemarketers

My top five "enemies list."

In order.

[DrCorday]

12. I think I put Terrorists ahead of Repukes....

...but the others, I dunno.

[Ian David]

20. Without the Repukes, the terrorists would have less power over us

Repukes are a "force-multiplier" for terrorists.

They bomb a few buildings, and the Republicans destroy our whole country for them.

So yeah, Republicans are worse than Bin Laden.

[Enquiringkitty]

6. WE might be able to get them to agree that they are loosing their health

insurance or having their coverage cut, the cost of living is rising faster than their wages, The government is cutting their ability to sue when you have been wronged and it was already hard enough to sue a corporation, so if the social security plan gets voted in and something goes wrong and the investments fail; What, Mr. Republican, will be there for you to live on? Have they given you a safety net in case private investment fails?

We might be able to get the Reps in the right economic group, the ones living from pay check to pay check. There must the 10s of thousands.

[DrCorday]

11. Here's what they say to that.

That we're being elitist fucks.

That the government shouldn't control our economy.

And that you'll actually earn more under their Social Security plan, or that right now the Social Security investment is failing.

My suggestion (whatever good it is):

Pretend like the Republicans in Washington are like this collective monster taking insurance and wages away from good folk like you and me. Doing this not only invokes the frame of rugged individualism and liberty, it also turns the Repuke and you into the same group. Suddenly you + Repuke = you and me, and you're now united against the GOP insiders.

Say that Social Security has to do with our responsibility to save for a rainy day, that's fine, but move quickly on to approaching them about dealing with the debt Bush has created. Get into a discussion about developing a plan to pay off the interest we owe thanks to Bushy. Don't argue whether or not Bush's budgeting skills are sound, just move straight on to how to deal with their failure. The Repuke will be arguing to cut social programs (not realizing that they've at least subconciously submitted that Bush fucked the budget), to which you can now say, "it'd really be better if we had a surplus like in the Clinton days..." They might not convert, but often their head explodes and that's kinda funny to watch. Someone else has a better idea on this one.

[Enquiringkitty]

17. Around here, all you have to do is show them the plan of which social

programs are going to be cut or reduced and they get a scared look on their faces .... they are all using those social programs. They've been screwed and not been kissed ..... I love it.

[DrCorday]

7. I often pretend to be a Republican.

Often, I like to claim to be a Republican and then use actual Republican values to twist them around.

See, our problem often is that we actually want to understand, discuss, and legitimately debate their point of view. All they want to do is win. They really don't care that much about their ideals, it's mostly party loyalty.

Therefore, when you announce that you're anti-Bush or anything even remotely close, they just lock up and ignore everything you say. (See Sean Hannity, everything he says.) My way of getting around this is to be a Republican who doesn't support Bush. They at least sometimes listen then.

The other way to get around it is to open their mind. The main problem we often have in the debate is that we're usually not trying to argue. We're trying to learn. Or we're trying to teach. They're just trying to score points.

Obviously, this is a generalization, but often I have been asked to prove that Osama hasn't been caught. Like that he might have been caught and we just don't know. It's obvious, however, that when you make an argument like that, that all you're trying to do is win your little argument, and you don't care about the truth.

I am not going to be convinced that Bush has done a good job fighting terror just because I can't prove Osama has been caught, and they're not going to be convinced because I can. The truth is, some people just won't be convinced. No matter what. So point that out - "you'll just agree with whatever Bush says, won't you?" or "okay, what could Bush do that would actually make you come over to my side?" and walk away. Don't get flustered trying to prove that 2+2=4 to someone who obviously doesn't even care what you think.

That's my two-cents, but I'm no genius.

[mahina]

13. um - just one point of logic

You say, " often I have been asked to prove that Osama hasn't been caught."
You could prove he was or not prove he was but never prove he wasn't. That's one reason we have defendants judged guilty or not guilty, not innocent.

It is impossible to prove a negative.

Prove you didn't cheat on a test. You can't. You can prove you know the material if you do, or that you were looking at your own work, but you can't prove you didn't cheat. So the next time someone asks you that you ask them to prove bush didn't cheat. They ccan't, in that case because HE DID!
grrrrr

[mahina]

15. You seriously pretend to be a republican?

Man you just could never do that where I live. Nobody ever leaves and nobody forgets.
Plus watch out you might get cooties.
Or greedies.

[McKenzie]

10. "The people who vote for them are ignorant, gullible people"

there is a lot of truth in that statement friend. Sweeping statements are sometimes way off the dial; sometimes they are necessary to make a point. In this case it's justified and very true.

I don't have anything substantive to offer as an answer to your question. I do, however, believe that the power elite is very small (I suppose an elite is small by definition) and it orchestrates public opinion in ways that are very subtle. Not a conspiracy theory as such. The end result of the myriad of actions underpinned by a common agenda is the same though...sell whatever sells, keep them amused and peddle propaganda that supports the world view of the power elite through the media...which they almost totally control...including that insidious medium, television.

I often ask myself why sensationalist tabloids are published. The easy answer is because they sell. I reckon there is more to it than that...another amusing diversion for the gullible and ignorant. It's for that reason that I refuse to participate in the Michael Jackson debate; it's irrelevant and pointless. Unfortunately, the gullible and ignorant will be fixated by it, and other drool generators, for months to come.

Sorry if this is tangential to your question. As a partial answer I'd suggest we need to push education in its widest sense as hard as possible. Not just vocational education because that does not create rounded and aware people...education in the art of critical thinking. Only then will we stand a chance. Until that happens we are fighting with one hand tied.

[mahina]

14. Head lice? Toe fungus?

Nah the GOP in NYC was crawling with something creepy....
they don't like us as much as we don't like them but I don't think that will help much. I wish they did.
Too bad it doesn't matter we love America as much as they do. Maybe more, we want to live up to our rhetoric.

[mahina]

16. Sorry to get off on a tangent- I think finding common ground is urgent.

But things that are party neutral like campaign finance reform or paper trail bills have gotten support here from both sides.
I used to think if we had neighborhood healing meetings block by block that would work, because who wants to be an asshole to the people you see every day? And ask just those questions, what do we both care about?
With groundrules, like no personal attacks
Good luck brah!

[Discord]

22. good luck

getting the Repug's to engage in a debate about an issue with resorting to personal attacks. They simply can't defend thier own issues. They win by changing the focus of the debate from the issue to making us defend ourselves against thier attacks. Part of the reason they continue to get voters to vote against thier own best intrests is by targeting thier phobia's and beliefs. The Repug's idea of campaigning, say, in the deep south, is by showing images of a dead child killed in the crossfire of some urban gang war and linking it dubiously to the social programs of the Democrats. Or another popular tactic in the Bible Belt was showing images of homosexuals at marraige ceremonies kissing, or a man in a gown, or a woman in a tux. And portraying it as how the Dem's corrupt pure moral values. The Repug's are predators. They prey on peoples biases and prejudices. They win thier votes by slander, not political education. For if many of the red states were suddenly awakened to the real world.. They would realize that they have been voting against themselves and thier own best intrest just to keep a group of people they don't agree with down.

[newyawker99]

26. Hi Discord!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[Discord]

27. Thanks!

Glad to be here!

[Pushed To The Left]

18. When they realize that the right wing leadership

is phony on the issues that some conservatives actually care about: Illegal immigration, crime, homeland security, and even the abortion issue.

The Republicans aren't doing anything effective to combat illegal immigration. Even some conservatives are publicly stating their suspicion that the Republican leadersip isn't doing all they can because they actually want the cheap labor illegal immigration provides.

The right wing says they are tough on crime, but continue to crowd the prisons with non-violent drug offenders. Meanwhile, more dangerous criminals get let out early due to overcrowding. Also, most people would agree there is a link between poverty and crime. The right wing is "soft on poverty", which isn't a good way to reduce crime.

Homeland security: This one is pretty obvious. The right wing shifted focus from the man responsible for 9/11, Osama bin Laden, to Saddam Hussein and Iraq. Meanwhile, our borders at home are still wide open in the name of cheap labor.

Abortion. Just because we Democrats are pro-choice doesn't mean we don't want to reduce abortions. However, the right wing wants to criminalize abortions without making any effort to reduce them. How can the right wing be anti-abortion, but also be anti-contraception and anti-safety net?

When these more rational conservatives' eyes are opened to the fact that the right wing cares more about cheap labor and profit than they do about any of those issues, they might just be ready to come over to our side!

[tooncesj0nes]

19. HIGH GAS PRICES!....

..supply and demand drives the cost of everything- now that the 'merikans are helping to build up the economy of INDIA and CHINA- these countries are creating markets for fuel reserves where there once was little demand...thanks to our outsourcing AND $29 DVD player mentality!...

[NorthSideCubsFan]

21. Some things I get no argument from my right wing friends on

- the idiotic harassment we now go through in the name of airport and other "security". Oddly enough, we do agree that this is done largely to give an ignorant population the illusion of safety and that it would never stop a determined terrorist.

- stupid "zero tolerance" policies by which kids are suspended from schools for drawing a picture of a gun, bringing aspirin in a backpack, etc.

- I've recently been very outspoken on the public domain case currently at the USSC whereby homes are being confiscated so that a corporation can build an office/resort complex. NO ONE anywhere on the political spectrum as far as my discussions go thinks this is permissible.

- Although many right wingers are still active proponents of the war on (some) drugs, I have had some success in arguing the case against asset forfeiture, no knock raids, etc.

From this I gather that those on both the left and right are sensitive to arbitrary harassment by petty bureacrats, unfortunately the masses in the middle seem to be numb to this.

And I do agree that both sides hate the mainstream media. It's not what the media actually say or report, it's that they do it under a pose of "objectivity" which both sides think is horseshit.

I personally think that we were better off in the 18th-19th century when every newspaper was unashamed of its particular partisan stance, and the readers were aware of that stance.

And by the way, I am not ashamed of having right wing friends and will continue to do so. As an anarcho-libertarian myself I can honestly say "there but for the grace of God go I" - I could have become on had things broken just a little differently.

[Disturbed]

23. I cannot be friends with...

people that are racists, corporatists,homophobes, fundies or a combination therof. I can get along with Moderate Republicans.

[noonwitch]

24. Potholes

We have some bad ones around Detroit. They can tear up anyone's car, freeper or Du'er.

[mattclearing]

25. Taxes - Paying for their government.

But it goes a bit deeper than that. The hatred of taxes is symptomatic of a deeper reluctance to take responsibility for society as a whole.

They feel no collective responsibility, respond to no higher calling.

What was that quote, about the current incarnation of the Republican Party's obsession with the age-old quest for a moral justification for selfishness?

That's it in a nutshell.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

28. Microsoft

Most people in the RW boards seems to be sympathetic to GNU/Linux and/or Apple, just like it is here.

Of course, there are some that can't bring themselves to dislike a big corporation.

[sadiesworld]

29. They don't care for corporate globalization...

but also seem to have a problem seeing the big picture.