The Green/Progressives will Compromise on Dean..

[wanderingbear]

Other wise We will Run Nader again this year.

[jmaier]

1. Ok

That's good to know. Thanks.

[mikehiggins]

2. That's nice. What if Dean isn't the candidate? What then?

That great feeling of purity as Bush gets back into office and pollutes the water and air and kills the forests?

Kudos!

Nader wasn't enough in 2000? This time you can't even claim the excuse that you didn't know that it did make a difference which party got into office.

This time is for all the chips and if you help Bush get back in, you deserve the same kind of world wide regard the Bolsheviks and Nazis are held in.

But hey, that's just my opinion.

[wanderingbear]

5. Dosnt matter..

We'll vote do it anyway..

[0rganism]

3. Also, Kucinich, Sharpton, and maybe CMB

*snicker*

Who the heck are you to speak for the "Green/Progressives", anyway?

[wanderingbear]

7. One of the Green Parties charter Members

ofcourse.

[0rganism]

14. What a shame, I thought you might be joking

If the Green party runs Nader in 2004, I'll be sure to re-register as an Independant. Still, I'm glad that our "compromise candidate" is in the lead at this time.

Many of the Democratic candidates represent a significantly different approach to that of the fascist warmonger bush; I trust Nader will not resort to the "not a dime's worth of difference" this time around.

[wanderingbear]

35. Yes that is a Plus..

And I hope it works out that The Greens and the Democrats can be together on this. But as a political group we must make certain demands while we have the power to make them. Its the only way we ever get a voice.

[Terwilliger]

39. all things being equal...assuming he "resorts" to that...

isn't it incumbent on the Democrats to spell out the differences that that Nader said weren't there? Will it be the failure to enumerate those differences that keep the muddle-of-the-road Americans sticking to the Repukes?

No matter what Nader says, shouldn't the Democrats create their own positive message? One that makes Nader's arguments irrelevant?

[wanderingbear]

66. Thing is Nader dosnt Lead the Green Party

Matter of fact no one really leads the Green Party. Our National Headquarters is in A small upstairs commercial flat in Salem Oregon.. Were Activists.. And we often Disagree with each other on wich issue is the most important. Nader is a Consumer protections advocate.. He not really much of an envoromantalist and has very little to say on the war.. But He was willing to run a Green Campain funded mostly out of his pocket..He had the Money and the name..We were just a group of potheads looking to get pot legalized. How could we say no?

[Renew Deal]

67. I agree

this is the best argument so far about what this is all about.

[wanderingbear]

71. We never dreamed we'd get this far..

You never know what you can do until you try.

[Devlzown]

4. Well it looks like we've decided to pick Lieberman,

so I guess Nader's gonna have to go ahead and run.:evilgrin:

[Hippo_Tron]

6. This is progress...

Since Dean is a candidate who has a serious chance at the nomination and the white house. However, I would hope that the greens would consider extending the same compromise to Kerry and Clark.

[wanderingbear]

10. Sorry...

We dont want Clark or Kerry..

[Renew Deal]

13. Who are you?

and why should anyone care?

[zulchzulu]

90. Kerry has 97% rating with League of Conservation Voters

He helped start Earth Day. He has the best record for environmental issues of all the candidates.

I guess Greens and Progressives wouldn't want that....

[wanderingbear]

116. The Green party considers Conservationist Groups like.

The Seera Club to be Yuppie pretenders to the throne...Only these to make rich people look good..

[zulchzulu]

119. What about League of Conservation voters?

And thanks for giving the finger to the good efforts of the Sierra Club. I know the usual nose-ring extremist stereotype that Sierra Club are just greenwashers and all that crap...

Would Earth First or Greenpeace like Dean? I think not.

[Terwilliger]

8. I don't think you know that for sure

I think Greens, if they decide to field a candidate, may choose someone besides Nader.

[cprise]

17. You haven't seen what GPUS are preparing to say after the Dem primary

In the case of a Dean defeat, their message will be remarkably effective.

[wanderingbear]

18. Nope.Thats pretty much who weve got..

Were a small Party..Canidates must pay their own way.. Last year we moves our national Office around the corrner for cheeper rent.. We dont have alot of money,But there is alot of us..

[SahaleArm]

29. I thought Nader would run if it's not Kucinich?

Or is it Dean or Green?

[Terwilliger]

33. Kucinich

I don't know who keeps floating this idea that he won't run if Dean is the nominee. The politics1 story supplies no quotes from Nader saying that he won't run if Dean is nominated.

[SahaleArm]

41. My predicition is that outside of Kucinich - Nader will run n/t

[wanderingbear]

89. I must say this though..

The Green Party is not sure if Nader will Run for us..Were hearing Rumor that he will run for the Democrats.

[Renew Deal]

104. How will he do this

since you are in the rumor mill. Is he going to be nominated a brokered convention? :eyes:

[wanderingbear]

118. On that I cant tell you..

Despite its effecency the Green Party Rumor mill cant always get all the information.

[JanMichael]

9. Um...This Progressive didn't get that memo. I also didn't realize...

...that I was being spoken for.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

59. Funny fucking show yesterday.

You were ON.






















pardon my language

[JanMichael]

77. You mean, "Funny F'ed Up Show", no?

New station bugs were still wrecking havoc on callers and streams.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

136. Shit,

I understand the problems you're dealing with. Still better than 99% of anything else out there. I'm just saying that YOU were funnier than shit.


(I'll readily admit that that wasn't the smoothest interview I've ever heard. BUT it's a GOOD THING. DON'T think it goes unappreciated.)


Makin' a difference. One idiot at a time.

[beyurslf]

11. I wish I could meet one green who would say

Yes we cost the Dems the election in 2000 and we will cost them again in 2004 if we try to run.

57,000 votes in FL and you tell me they didn't hand the election to Bush. Does anyone really believe there is no difference between Gore and Bush now?

[wanderingbear]

22. You dont get it do you..

Yes we did..And we'll do it again if we dont get our way.

[cprise]

26. You are mistaken. Those votes did not start as Dem.

Dems must push with Greens for voting reform incl. IRV. In some of the more high-IQ areas the lightbulb has switched on and progress is being made at the local level. That is how Dems survive as a ruling, centrist paty that can push through progressive policy when required.

At the national level, forget it. Dean's threat to give the current Dem leadership a vacation is justified.

[no name no slogan]

82. Better tell the 300,000 Florida Dems who voted for BUSH

Go ahead and complain about the 57,000 votes Nader supposedly cost Gore all you want.

The truth is that 300,000 FL Democrats voted for Bush over Gore. Why isn't your reightious anger directed at those Dems who crossed over party lines and voted for smirking chimp? According to most conventional math, if Gore had kept those 300k voters in the party, he would have handily won Florida, Nader or not.

If you want to point fingers, look in the mirror first. Nader didn't lose the election for Gore. Gore and his handlers lost it all on their own.

[Renew Deal]

12. Is this a threat?

Nader is a self serving chump and will be crushed like the guy in San Fran was.

[mzmolly]

15. It's a reality.

And, I'm no big fan of Nader personally.

[0rganism]

20. "crushed like the guy in San Fran was"

The Democrats pulled out all the big guns, spent millions on the freaking mayors race, and the best Newsom can come up with is a 53-47 over a candidate whose party reps under 5% of the population? If that's "crushing" victory, do you call the Schwarzenegger's 55-37 romp over Bustamante a "photo finish"?

[SahaleArm]

24. Regardless it's 2.7% nationally and even smaller in the swing states. n/t

[wanderingbear]

27. Enough to be a big problem

In the present political environment.

[SahaleArm]

32. You won't get 2.7% regardless of who Democrats run - Not in 2004

Assuming Lieberman is not the nominee.

[wanderingbear]

45. We will have more this year...

Our voter Base isnt from the Dems.. Our voter base is New voters..The always unpridictable youth.. They were my fist party..

[SahaleArm]

69. The question is how many Green's from 2000 will vote Green in 2004?

Especially given the results of the last 3 years; not to mention that Nader will run if Dean runs.

[wanderingbear]

81. No the question is how many citizens have turned 18 in the last 4 years?

The Youth vote is decidedly Green/Progressive.

[SahaleArm]

84. Will a traditionally poor voter block make up for temporary defectors?

Those who will vote Green locally and Democrats nationally...

[wanderingbear]

91. You call them tempoerary defectors..

We call them infiltrators.

[SahaleArm]

100. Is that the philosophy of the Green party? n/t

[wanderingbear]

111. The Green party has no Forrmal organization..

Our members com from a variety of Enviromental Pasifict Social justice groups.. We are Radicals Activists and the disenfranchized from all ofver the country..People who would normally not vote.Vote Green.

[SahaleArm]

113. You Sure? Green Party Awarded National Committee Status by FEC

http://www.gp.org/fec/fec.html

[wanderingbear]

I was Afraid of this..

Someone has formed a new National Group.
Sorry..Thats not the Original Green Party. Thats not us..
Looks like we start over again with a new name.

[SahaleArm]

124. LOL - Great job in throwing everyone for a loop n/t

[Moderator]

159. I am locking this thread.

The author has been banned.


DU Moderator

[wanderingbear]

127. We Are not the National Green Party..

Our name has been stolen.. It seems someone has registered the Green Party as National Party.. This was not the doing of the Origanal Party..

[SahaleArm]

129. LOL - Even better someone stole your name? n/t

[Renew Deal]

131. Quik, Call the police

Robbery in progress (or is that progressive).

:tinfoilhat::tinfoilhat::tinfoilhat:

[Spirochete]

152. Don't fret - i think the name

Moron Dopers From Oregon is still available. Better hurry, though.

[Hippo_Tron]

153. Umm the youth vote is decidedly nonexistant... n/t

[drfemoe]

120. I read that Nader WILL NOT

run if Dean runs ...

[SahaleArm]

123. Source? I have never heard of that other than on this thread...

Which leads me to be suspicious of the original posters intent.

[drfemoe]

130. I'll see if I can find it ..

it wasn't on DU.

[drfemoe]

139. It was reported in the WSJ Friday

There is also a reference to an AP story, which I didn't track down.
Daily KOS has this excerp .. >>
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2003/12/19/17427/859

Nader the Spoiler? Unlikely If Dean Wins the Nomination
For all the gloominess Democrats may harbor about Howard Dean's chances in the general election, here's a bit of good news: Ralph Nader, whose third-party candidacy cost Al Gore the presidency in 2000, seems unlikely to mount a run against the former Vermont governor.

Mr. Nader says he will decide in the next few weeks whether to run. But in the meantime, his praise of Mr. Dean undercuts any rationale for another independent candidacy.

"Reading his position papers sounds eerily similar to what we've been saying," the longtime consumer advocate notes in an interview with the Online Journal this week. "He speaks clearly ... not in Senate-ese ... and projects vigor. We need a macho Democrat." The front-running Democratic candidate, Mr. Nader says, has an impressive "rope-a-dope ability."
...
"Unlike most of the other candidates," Mr. Nader says, the Vermont governor "is not compromised by votes for the Patriot Act or for the Iraqi war resolution."

[SahaleArm]

143. Yeah - I've seen the piece but I still have my doubts...

The comments that speak to Nader not running are editorial in nature and not based directly on any of Nader's comments.

[drfemoe]

146. ???

So, when you said:

"Source? I have never heard of that other than on this thread...
Which leads me to be suspicious of the original posters intent."

What you really meant was that you didn't believe the reports you had seen ???

:crazy:

[SahaleArm]

147. An editorial comment extrapolated from Nader's praise of Dean...

is not the same as Nader saying outright that he'll bow out, which if he did would justify this thread. Nader did not say "I won't run if Dean is the nominee" because he has too much of an ego.

[SahaleArm]

128. n/t

[dajabr]

57. Turning away a piece of 2.7% nationally? That's smart.

Not.

[Renew Deal]

63. They can choose.

Dem nominee or George Bush*. A vote for anyone else is a vote for Bush*. You think all those people working hard against Bush are going to throw a vote away on another canidate?

[dajabr]

68. From the Green Party emails I've seen...

Yes, they "are going to throw a vote away on another canidate?"

Or, at least they are very seriously considering it now.

[SahaleArm]

79. What does a Green have in common with Dean? Other than it rhymes n/t

[silverweb]

88. Plenty.

Dean is just more pragmatic than many Greens, willing to take one step at a time towards progressive goals rather than demanding everything at once.

As Dean once said to worried liberals in Vermont when he first became governor (and I paraphrase here because I don't have the exact quote handy), "All of your wonderful social goals and programs will come to nothing if you can't fund them." Then he proceeded to get control of the budget, started funding those programs, and began reaching those goals.

[SahaleArm]

106. How does that differ with any of the other candidates?

Right now there's little beyond rhetoric.

[silverweb]

126. There are a number of areas, of course.

A primary one, though, is that only Dean and Kucinich opposed the illegal invasion of Iraq from the start. With a groundswell of support from that position, the grassroots movement got started. Building from that base and incorporating other core Democratic principles (many of which are the same as those of the Green Party), the "take our country back" campaign took off.

At this point, I'm not really sure what technical differences may exist between Dean and other Democratic candidates on key issues. At this point, it doesn't even really matter. What matters is that Dean has the enthusiastic grassroots support of The People - not just one group of the people, but a broad cross-section of the population, from moderates to progressives.

Dean is able to focus all of these people on our common needs and common purpose. He is able to help people refocus from their pet parochial issues onto the Big Picture. He has the charisma, the "fire in the belly," the passion, and the energy to get people involved, keep them motivated, and pull them all together for our common purposes. He has brought meaning back to the phrase, "We the People" and has made many feel it again - or even for the first time.

That, my friend, is the leadership we need - especially at this point in our history.

[SahaleArm]

133. I think you are wrong about who disagreed with Iraq

Sept-26, 2002: Before the Senate House Armed Services Committee

But the problem of Iraq is only an element of the broader security challenges facing our country. We have an unfinished, world-wide war against Al Qaeda, a war that has to be won in conjunction with friends and allies, and that ultimately be won by persuasion as much as by force, when we turn off the Al Qaeda recruiting machine.

Force should be used as the last resort; after all diplomatic means have been exhausted, unless information indicates that further delay would present an immediate risk to the assembled forces and organizations. This action should not be categorized as “preemptive.”

http://armedservices.house.gov/openingstatementsandpressreleases/107thcongress/02-09-26clark.html

[silverweb]

145. An excellent statement...

...but made before the Armed Services Committee, not in a public forum, and not as a candidate for president. He missed out on capturing the momentum and imagination of the people.

Nor is this the only issue. It was one primary issue in getting Dean's grassroots movement started, but hardly the only one.

Governor Dean knows about budgets, education, jobs, health care, and getting people with different viewpoints to work together. General Clark knows about military operations. I know where my priorities lie. I'm sure the General is a fine man and, should he win the nomination, I will throw every ounce of my support behind his campaign.

Elections are definitely about the issues of the day, but not just about the issues. In order to win the general election, our candidate must be able to reach the average citizen - who tends to be generally uninformed, uninvolved, and apathetic about the political process. Dean has already reached thousands who have never before participated in the political process. He has inspired the under-30 population to involvement and action. He has motivated senior citizens to express their fears and outrage, and has given them a new voice. He has re-energized parents to work for the long-term future, not just the short term - for the benefit of their children and the world they will be living in. He has given teachers and health care workers the boost they needed to once again believe in the nobility of their professions, to believe they are not just cogs in the wheels of a machine dominated by budget cuts and insurance restrictions.

Dean has the fire. I've met him. I saw it in his face, heard it in his voice, and felt it in his handshake. His campaign has gathered and inspired diverse people to work together as a community again, with real hope for real change.

Dean can win. Furthermore, I believe that Dean is the only one who can successfully "herd" the motley crowds of unherdable Democrats, Greens, Independents, and moderate Republicans in the same direction for the good of all.

I will continue to work hard for Dr. Dean to win the nomination because I believe he is the best candidate for the job and the best candidate to win against the GOP machine.

[SahaleArm]

148. Actually it wasn't a comment on Dean's support or...

his grassroots movement. It was a comment directed toward those who said Clark was for the war resolution, which is not true. He did speak about this again on the air and in this CNN editorial dated October 10, 2002.

The answer to all these questions is yes, if we have the time. Well, we do. The key issue about Iraq has never been whether weshould act if Saddam doesn't comply with U.N. resolutions anddisarm. Rather, the problems are how we should act, and when. As for the how, the answer is clear--multilaterally, with friends and allies, with every possible effort to avoid the appearance of yet another Christian and Jewish stab at an Islamic country, with force as a last resort, and with a post-conflict plan in place to assure that the consequences of our action do not supercharge the al-Qaeda recruiting machine. As for the when, let's take the time to plan, organize and do the whole job the right way. This will only take a few more weeks, and it's important. It's not just about winning a war--it's also about winning the peace.

http://www.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/10/10/timep.iraq.viewpoints.tm/index.html

On Edit:

It is also good to remember that he wasn't a presidential candidate until a year later so at this point he was a CNN commentator and advisor to certain Democrats:).

[silverweb]

149. That's a very good piece

... and it certainly confirms that Gen. Clark was against invading preemptively and unilaterally. I wish more people had listened to him.

Personally, I hope that every single Democratic candidate for president right now is fully involved in the new administration when we win back the White House. They all have something valuable to contribute and I hate seeing them attack each other.

(Even Lieberman. We can figure out something for him to do later.) :D

[SahaleArm]

150. Lieberman is conservative in one sense but he's not in others...

A strange combination that doesn't fall into either camp. He's pro-Affirmative Action, Pro-Choice, Marched for civil-rights, is a bit overly-religious, fights Hollywood, pro-trade, and is a hawk. He's certainly not a Republican nor is he a liberal Democrat, he's Joe Lieberman - a Senatorial enigma:).

[silverweb]

151. It's the Hawk part that makes me nervous.

I remember reading about him during Gore's campaign, and he was felt to be quite liberal and very popular by his constituency. I had reservations about him then, but trusted Gore's judgment. I have many more reservations about him now, since he seems to side with the Bush administration entirely too often.

"Enigma" is a very good term to describe him. :)

[Name removed]

85. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SahaleArm]

86. How does he plan to run for the Democrats? In the primary? n/t

[Terwilliger]

28. 53-47 is crushed?

is it just Democrats that like to fabricate the meaning of things?

Gonzalez was outspent 8 to 1 AND they had to call in Gore and Clinton...Newsom was lucky to escape with his ass intact.

[silverweb]

16. Does this mean...

... that all Greens/Progressives will be encouraged by the Green Party to reregister as Democrats so that they can vote for Dean in the primaries and ensure that he is the nominee?

California's primary is March 2. Time to get reregistered, Greens!

O8)

[mikehiggins]

21. That would be a more legitimate tactic

than trying to dictate the primary winner by threatening to run against someone they don't care for.

[silverweb]

23. Dictating doesn't work, anyway.

Just something I've noticed.

:D

[wanderingbear]

25. Accually Yes it does..

And is already happening.. in those states where is is nessissary.
But remember..Their still Greens..If they dont get what they want they will go right back to the Green party.

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Renew Deal]

42. Bye

Thanks for shopping with us. Don't come here and threaten people. As long as you are a registered Green you have no right. Remember what Skinner says. The Greens are the enemy come election season if they want to be. The only guy Nader is holding back for is Kucinich. It's also possible that Nader will run independent and someone will run on the green ticket.

[silverweb]

43. I can speak only for myself, of course,

so I'll rephrase: Dictating doesn't work for me and people like me. :D Direct orders are something we tend to thumb our noses at. However, if you give us a compelling reason to follow a certain course, we can be convinced.

I'm convinced that the Green Party simply cannot win a national election at this time and by running its own candidate will only split the vote again. If that happens, the disastrous results will be far beyond those we have merely glimpsed under this misadministration.

As a Green at heart, but also a practical and realistic person, I am committed to helping make Gov. Dean our next president. I strongly encourage all Greens to reregister, if necessary, to vote in the Democratic primary. Together, we can take our country back and begin to reverse the damage that has been done.

[dajabr]

76. Well said, silverweb.

:yourock:

[silverweb]

80. ^5s, dajabr!

B-)

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[dajabr]

30. This has been my biggest fear about Clark & his suppporters...

His millitary background will scare them back to voting 3rd Party.

His supporters don't think it matters, and by the contempt for greens/progressives I see in this thread, it's probably true.

[Renew Deal]

36. Should we let the republicans decide who we vote for?

The Green party is not part of the Democratic Party. Why should we let the unregistered minority affect our party issues?

[dajabr]

40. Many people thought they cost Gore the Presidency...

Isn't that affecting Party issues?

There are Progressives that are registered Dems too, you know. Want to keep them as well?

[SahaleArm]

44. Will you trade off the middle for the Greens? I know Dean won't n/t

[dajabr]

48. Dean won't have to. (nt)

[SahaleArm]

65. Sure - how does he plan to appease both side? Voodoo? n/t

[dajabr]

70. He's been doing it. Pay attention. (nt)

[SahaleArm]

75. The unexplainable Dean-Green phenomenon...

The party ends the day Dean gets the nomination and runs to win (the middle). Right now he has 25% of the Democrats and he'll want the rest in the general election.

[dajabr]

87. "The unexplainable Clark-Green phenomenon..."

Oh wait, there is none.

I doubt Clark would or could run to the left at this point or in the GE.

Alienate them again... Lose to GWB (and the RNC thru the next Century). Rinse. repeat.

[SahaleArm]

92. Plenty of progressive Clark supporters in Seattle - But thanks for playing

You still haven't explained the draw, the real figures of how many Greens truely support Dean, or what will happen when Nader runs? And Nader will run unless Kucinich is the nominee, leaving you in a pickle.

[dajabr]

105. "Plenty" Thanks for the real figures on Clark. What poll is that? LOL(nt)

[SahaleArm]

108. Where are your figures? Oh that's right you don't have any...

Therefore this thread is a bunch of drivel disguised as disgruntled Green party members. Either way I'll take my chances and exercise my vote as a member of the Democratic party.

[dajabr]

114. You first! And, answer me this so we're clear...

Are you calling me a Green? You going to call me a Freeper next?

I have to be a Green, right? Cause a real Dem, especially a Clark Supporter, would know when to take orders and shut up.

[SahaleArm]

115. No - You didn't start this thread so I didn't call you anything...

Though you seem strangely bitter in your quest to convince me?

[dajabr]

121. "strangely bitter?"

Stop beating around the b*sh. Are we in for 10 more posts of you implying something? Or, are you going to make an actual statement? What's on your mind? - don't be shy.

[SahaleArm]

125. Is that the angry man persona? ;^) n/t

[dajabr]

135. No...

It's the, "If you've got something you want to say - say it" persona.

Otherwise, just include "dajabr, you are a fine and true Democrat" in your next post. It would make me feel better to know you felt that way. :-)

[SahaleArm]

137. And you know this is just a discussion ;)

I do question the veracity of the original poster who now claims someone stole the Green Party name:tinfoilhat:.

dajabr, you are a fine and true Democrat ;)

[dajabr]

140. Thanks!

It is getting a little odd up thread!

Even so, the "energize the base (including ProgDems & some Greens)" vs. "play to the swing/independant" discussion needs to go on.

I'm watching Clark to see if he can demonstrate that he will be a big-tent candidate (Left/Center/Conservative). I have my doubts about his draw on The Left, and we need all hands on deck for this one!

later,

dajabr

[Renew Deal]

46. That's different and you know it.

But that's part of the primary process. They get to vote in the primary if they are registered Dems.

[nomaco-10]

34. Anybody that saw the interview he gave...

Friday on CNN left zero doubt that he's running. He clearly said Kucinich was the only candidate that he would stay out of the race for. I guess we know what the probability of Dennis getting the nod is, Nader all but declared himself.

[windansea]

37. so I guess Dean offered Nader a cabinet post?

I will believe your post when Ralph says it

Got a link?

[Renew Deal]

38. George Bush thanks you for your support

:yourock:

[dajabr]

47. Wow, wanderingbear, I think you just uncovered a major flaw...

In nominating Clark.

I, for one, would like to pick up as many Greens in the General Election as possible, and keep Progressive Dems solidly behind us.

The more the merrier! And, the less likely it will come down to one state or a handfull of electoral college votes.

[Renew Deal]

49. Umm check that

Why Clark only? There are 8 other people running. Nader said he would hold off for Kucinich. Dean is not Kucinich.

[dajabr]

52. Clark has acknowledged that running as a "General" is fine for Republicans

But very difficult to swallow for Democrats.

Think how much tougher it will be to pull in Greens or disillusioned Progressives with The General on the ticket.

I'd rather the next election not come down to the wire if we can help it. The Left can help make it so.

[Renew Deal]

56. There are far more

independents and republicans out there than Greens. Those are groups that have voted for Dems before or would be in the right situation. I am not scared of threats of Greens or anyone else. They know that if they want Bush gone they will fall in line. Otherwise they can try to compete.

[dajabr]

62. Case for Dean...

He pulls ProgDems, Independants, Republicans (aka true conservatives), AND a percentage of Greens.

"they will fall in line" - don't count on it. And, if that's the attitude of the Clark Campaign, we're all going to get a rude awakening in Nov 2004.

[Renew Deal]

64. If Dean is so great

why is Nader only holding back for Kucinich? This is a big party and country. I am not willing to abandon most american voters over a tiny huffy minority.

[dajabr]

72. That "tiny huffy minority"

When added to the Progressive Wing of our Party, gives us a lot of welcome breathing room againt GWB.

The Centrists are the one's who'll fall in line. Or, are all the ABBers here talking out they're ass?

Putting The General on the ticket give The Left a big excuse to say, "well, we would have helped you guys if you had only not nomminated a product of the millitary."

[Renew Deal]

73. And then they can get

huffy and puffy. They can vote in the primary if they are registered. They have a choice. Silly threats aren't enough. Guys like Dean are also the kinds of people that drive away middle of the road people that want to feel safe. There are far more of those. The far left will have to chose between Bush and Dem. That's their only choice. A vote not for dem is for Bush.

[dajabr]

83. If Dean drives away middle of the road people in the GE...

Wouldn't that make them Bush Voters?

Are Centrist Dems really going to vote for Bush? Based on the presumption that he would "keep them safer?" Please tell me if this plot is in the works.

[Renew Deal]

93. It's not a plot.

Most people aren't political junkies. Ever heard of "Raygun Democrats"? That's who the center is (that's not a politics regular).

[dajabr]

110. Yes, we know. Clark and Dean will pull Independants.

We've tried the "Fight for the Center" model, and showed ourselves right out the door into the political wilderness.

I don't want to keep doing the same thing over and over with the same results.

[Renew Deal]

117. OK so

you want to fight for 2.7% that is very likely to vote Dem instead of 30% that is somewhat likely?

[dajabr]

132. "Farewell to the swing voter"

"This is a very different political climate than it was even a year ago," says Andrew Kohut, director of the Pew Research Center for the People & the Press, which released a study showing the country more polarized than it has been since 1994, when angry voters put the Republicans in control of Congress.

This hardening of attitudes also helps explain why the swing voter, so sought after during the 1990s, is getting less attention. The name of the game for both parties is getting their core voters to the polls.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/11/10/timep.swing.tm/

Swing voters are about half your figure (15%). And, I'd rather go for The Base. Karl Rove is.

The other message was the degree to which the Democrats have bought into the theory that victory in November will belong to the party that best energizes its passionate base. It is a concept embraced by President Bush's political guru, Karl Rove, and, now, by Mr. Gore, in his implicit turning away from the triangulation politics of the Clintonites who courted swing voters so well.

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/12/10/opinion/10WED2.html

[SahaleArm]

95. No - Those are the 10%-15% of America who are Independent

aka swing voters

[wanderingbear]

97. You dont get it..Were willing to risk that.

To get what we want.. A truly Progressive Domocratic Party.

[wanderingbear]

74. Remeber what this Tiny Minority did last time??

We can do it again.. And As ive said before Dean is the Best compromise..with the lack of a perfect canidate.

[wanderingbear]

55. I dont think He did..

That wasnt the choice of the Greens... Ofcouse Nader hasnt accepted our Support of him yet..Theres been rumor of him going independant this time..

[Renew Deal]

60. So without the backing of the Green party

what does Nader have? DO you think he will carry the votes he did alst time. I have friends that voted for Nader last time thinking it wouldn't matter. They don't think it's so funny now.

[Name removed]

134. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[wanderingbear]

51. I really dont see any other way..

Dean isnt perfect in our eyes eather, But the Best compromise avalible.

[dajabr]

53. Speaking as a Democrat...

Dean isnt perfect in MY eyes either, But the Best compromise avalible (to oust GWB).

[Rose Siding]

50. The Dean campaign welcomes everyone

http://www.deanforamerica.com/

Be sure and hit the blog. There's lots to do.

[silverweb]

54. Amen!

:toast:

[neuvocat]

58. Speak for yourself.

If Nader runs then I'll either vote for someone else or write someone else in. Someone here warned me about switching to the Greens when the primaries came up, but I'll volunteer and make campaign contributions to help make up for my vote.

[mitchum]

61. bullshit

[Mz Pip]

78. I'm not going to

stay home because the media, polls and pundits want to pick my candidate. I'm sure not going to let the Naderites do the same.

MzPip
:dem:

[dajabr]

94. OK, you've dismissed bringing in "Naderites"

What about the Left Wing of OUR Party? Think they won't have second thoughts about pulling the lever for The General? Maybe they don't trust The General? Maybe The General does not have enough of a track record as a Democrat to get people out of their homes?

I'm not sure, and it worries me.

[zulchzulu]

96. What Green or progressive issues attract you to Dean?

His A+ NRA rating? Oh, is it because he's "cool"?

[wanderingbear]

101. First and formost He is

the only Canidate who has spoken against the war.

[Renew Deal]

107. Kucinich hasn't?

Is this a joke?

[windansea]

109. canidate??

are you old enough to vote??

please direct me to an official statement by the Greens proving what you are saying...otherwise it's so much BS

[Name removed]

122. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Renew Deal]

98. You wrote this the other day

Why Dean??? One Reason...

Because he is the only one speaking up against the war..And that settles my vote right then and there..

So you are saying Kucinich and Clark didn't speak up against the war?

[wanderingbear]

102. No..They havent outrightly said anything..

They may have hinted disaproval..But they never said anything out right.

[Renew Deal]

103. Your view is shared with the freepers

I never thought the two would have something in common.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/1043770/posts

[jmaier]

112. That's so outrageous

a statement that it's almost hard to argue with. Let's just take Kucinich for instance. He actually VOTED against the war! That's a damn sight stronger position than saying something against it. He's also the only candidate advising to pull the troops out immediately.

To paraphrase Val Kilmer as Doc Holliday: "your hypocrisy knows no bounds."

[poskonig]

99. That's not true.

I was talking to some Greens who told me they want Kucinich or they'll Ralph. Most Nader2000 voters like myself I suspect will support the Democrat this time around. But there will be some leakage no matter what happens; it is just a raw fact.

[wanderingbear]

138. Nevermind..It looks like were not the Green Party any more..

Someone Registared as the National Green Party and it wasnt us..

Well..I guess we start all over again with a new name.

Damm..No name No canidate..Now what??

[Renew Deal]

141. huh

Are you the green wing of the green party?

[wanderingbear]

142. Well..The Original Party is almost out of funds..

Ill Just Join the National Green Party. Let this one die..Guess thats the way it works when you nationalize.

[wanderingbear]

144. Im still registerd with the Pacific Greens..

The Original Green party.. We didnt really know what we were going to do... I guess weve had it taken out of our hands..I just found out today.. Well Guess we dont have to worry abount next months rent for the office space.

[Hippo_Tron]

154. Greens/Progressives have a point...

And I'm glad to see that they've compromised on Dean. I think that our candidate may need to do a better job reaching out to the left. I also think that even though this will be a close election, the moderate vote will come from sheer dislike of Bush (should we run a good campaign). Greens have the right to run Nader but I wish they wouldn't in hopes that we could unite America against Bush. Also, I think that if we get a democratic congress we will do a much better job of promoting liberal agenda instead of having to compromise with the GOP.

[Iverson]

155. sorry, friend, I don't believe you're a Green

Your writing is like someone doing an impression of a Green, and mentioning Nader is a fine way of establishing cover around here so that people get riled up and fail to read carefully. I think that subtrefuge is a bad idea, and too many readers here are easy prey for having their anti-Green feelings reinforced.

Here's what gives you away.

First of all, you frame your thread in terms of a specific Democratic candidate, and not even one of those whose positions are closest to the Greens.

You frame a Democratic preference in terms of a threat.

In order to make your claim, you seem to forget that there's a convention at which the candidate is chosen.

You offer this flippant party description, "We were just a group of potheads looking to get pot legalized." That is an error of fact.

Maybe you are just a young person or can't spell well, but certain posts give an impression of parody, such as #18 ("Were a small Party..Canidates must pay their own way.. Last year we moves our national Office around the corrner for cheeper rent.. We dont have alot of money,But there is alot of us.."). Post #118 combines properties of my last two observations.

This comment from note 22 is almost exactly a Democratic caricature of Greens: "And we'll do it again if we dont get our way."

So is this, from note 91: "You call them tempoerary defectors..
We call them infiltrators."

Whether you are sincere or not, I recommend a review of these:
http://www.gpus.org/tenkey.html

Comments?

[SahaleArm]

156. Yes - the use of "Infiltrators" was a dead giveaway,..

Sounded a bit too stasiesque for any Green or Democrat, which led me to believe he was a Dean supporter posing as a Green. Though it did get better when he accused someone of stealing the Green Party name; all together a sad attempt at strongarming.

[Iverson]

157. thanks, but I also doubt a Dean supporter

It seems to me that most Dean supporters would not go out of their way to alienate potential voting allies. The Dean campaign seems very proud of the momentum it has, if the supporters on DU are any indication. The risk of being found out would make this gambit a foolish one.

Nice to see someone else up so early.

:donut:

[SahaleArm]

158. Or up so late ;) n/t