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rbrussell Donating Member (42 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-04 06:11 PM
Original message
The Political Assassination of Howard Dean


Those of us looking for a true new era for America would be foolish to believe that a candidate supported by Bill Clinton will bring it. For all of our fond memories now, Bill Clinton repeatedly bombed (and maintained the sanctions against) Iraq, destroyed a medicine factory in the Sudan, bombed Afghanistan, attacked Serbia (without UN permission), intervened in the Somali Civil War (resulting in the loss of eighteen Americans and the deaths of thousands of Somalian civilians), and launched countless other actions all across the world. He may have signed the Kyoto Treaty and the Rome Statute: but he never pressed or fought for them. Kyoto, we ought to remember, was signed in 1997. Unless my memory fails me, Bill Clinton still had three years in office to go at that point. He never submitted it to the Senate, and he never had any intention of doing so.

Had September 11th happened on the watch of Bill Clinton or Al Gore, they would have done exactly the same things that George W. Bush has done. We would have invaded Afghanistan and, because a short war there would not have satisfied the primal thirst for blood of so many Americans, we would have gone to war elsewhere as well. In fact, were this war being waged with a Democrat at the helm, half of you would be screaming at the Republicans who would (though probably not as vehemently as some Democrats) oppose the war.

I do not say any of this to praise the foreign policy of George W. Bush. But neither do I say it to support the foreign policy of Bill Clinton and the mainstream of the Democratic Party. While the rhetoric is different, the message is the same: deep down, virtually every major, mainstream politician in America, of either party, supports the agenda of American Empire and world domination. Now they may make theatre of opposing it- but I see no candidate who makes serious proposals for a real effort at disarmament or at creating the true world-spanning institutions which can bring us real peace.

The closest any candidate comes to doing this (any candidate who can win, at least) is Dr. Howard Dean. While he too, in the interests of maintaining his electability, mouths the platitudes of American superiority, it is very clear to me (as comes through from some of his statements) that, deep down, he understands that we will only have peace in this world when America gives up its delusions of superiority and special prerogative.

We are no different from any other nation and we have no right to tell any other nation what to do. We are not (or, at least, should not be) a Superpower or even the “first among equals”, but rather merely an equal. A Dean Presidency would take us in the right direction.

This is not, as some will charge, a prescription for national decline, far from it. Rather, it is a prescription for national greatness. It is a silly game, mostly that of white, heterosexual men, to measure our power by the number of guns we have, bombs we possess, people we can kill. It is only a greedy capitalist who would define the measure of greatness by the number of dollars we produce.

The power of the Dean campaign is not derived from Howard Dean himself. Who was Howard Dean before we chose him? The above-average Governor of a tiny state. Someone who, in terms of the difficulty of their last job, is probably outranked by nearly every other Governor as well as all one hundred members of the Senate and about fifty big city mayors.

Why is everyone ganging up on Howard Dean? Not because they fear him. Because they fear us. We are a body of Americans who have come to see the folly of American exceptionalism. We are people who see the futility of an economy which produces hundreds of billionaires but cannot afford health care for the poorest Americans.

The Washington Democrats aren’t out to solve any of these problems because they are the ones who benefit the most from them. Republicans do nothing to ameliorate the present conditions because they believe that eventually, when things get bad enough, we’ll turn to them and let them implement their whole agenda. Democrats do nothing because they are the ones who made and live well off the status quo.

We’re the one campaign with the power to shake off the shackles of the present reality. That’s why they’re after us.

Until Iowa, I was for anyone-but-Bush. That isn’t true anymore. Does anyone think that there would be a substantive difference between the way a second-term Bush, looking to elect a Republican successor in 2008, and John Kerry, looking to get re-elected in 2008, would govern? The differences would be matters of style, and not substance. The same goes for John Edwards, Wesley Clark, and all the rest.

With us, his supporters, Howard Dean can work against the Washington establishment. We are not in politics to sit for a career; we are in it to revolutionize America. This is bad news for those whose jobs depend on complacency and the status quo.

That is why I say that, if Dean loses as a result of the unfair tactics and smears of the Clinton machine, he must run as a third party candidate and he must follow up that campaign.

Perhaps it is time for us to consider that, if the Democrats love the status quo so much, we ought to have a real third party in America. Never mind a third party, we need a new second party! One that will truly represent progressive values.

It isn’t as crazy as it sounds. That’s how the Republicans came to be. As the Whigs fell apart, various factions came together to establish a true free soil party.

We won’t win in 2004, but we might strike a fatal blow to the Democratic Party, giving us room to overtake them in the 2006 Congressional elections and win in 2008. It isn’t that progressivism is unpopular among the American people, it’s that the Democrats are widely (and correctly, I might add) viewed as an unwieldy collection of special interest groups, all in this for themselves.

Well, that’s how I feel. What do you think?
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AntiCoup2K4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-04 06:16 PM
Response to Original message
1. Agreed with most of it.
Except the second and third paragraph. I don't believe President Gore would have invaded Iraq, and I'll never be convinced 9-11 would have even happenned, had he been allowed to serve his elected term of office.

As for the third party - I'd have to think about that one.
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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-04 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #1
8. Me, Too
Except for the part about Dean running 3rd party. That's simply not going to happen.

I may very well write-in his name in the GE, though.
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polpilot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-04 07:32 PM
Response to Reply #8
42. Dean's been running 3rd party for a while. Go to the DLC website if you
believe Dean is considered a democrat by this party.

Dean '04...
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rbrussell Donating Member (42 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-04 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #1
11. Believe It
9-11 would have happened if Al Gore had been President. After all- did Clinton stop the USS Cole, Khobar Towers, or any of the rest of it?

Terrorist attacks can be stopped by two means:
1) Terrorists can be attacked and killed in the homes. This, eventually, will mean the occupations of many nations and the deaths of probably millions, but it eventually will work.
2) We can accept that American power is a liability in the modern world and, sooner or later, cease to be a terrorist target.

Terrorists don't "hate us because we're free" they hate us for what, from their point of view, are very sound geopolitical reasons. We stand in the way of their getting what they want.

So, we have two options- fight or flight. Since we have no business being in their way, I move for the latter. Bush has chosen the former.

A President Gore would have chosen the former as well. I don't know if he'd have invaded Iraq, but I suspect he would have (or done something on a similar scale).

Recall, because Democrats have a reputation for being weak on national security, a President Gore would feel compelled to act more strongly than a President Bush.
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WhoCountsTheVotes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-04 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #11
24. 911 would NOT have happened if Gore was president
"9-11 would have happened if Al Gore had been President." There is no evidence or justification for that speculation. Considering that Islamicist terrorist were unable to attack our country before Bush's interference with anti-terrorist efforts to protect his business partnerships with the Binladens suggests that it wouldn't have. There's no reason to believe that Gore would have given the Saudi clans political cover the way Bush did.

The attacks that happened under Bush I and Clinton were attacks to our military that was in operations in other countries. An attack inside our borders is a completely different thing.
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rbrussell Donating Member (42 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-04 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. What was the attack in 1993?
The first WTC attack, OKC, and Columbine all happened on President Clinton's watch.

Now, of course, blaming him for any of the above would be silly and unfair. That's why mainstream Republicans never tried it. They would have sounded dumb.

That's how we sound when people blame Bush for 9-11. It doesn't sell.

It would have been like if Dewey ran the entire campaign in 1944 around blaming FDR for Pearl Harbor. Maybe even with some truth in it, but not something that people want to listen to.
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WhoCountsTheVotes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-04 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #27
46. a truck bomb is *quite* different
from hijacking four planes, running them all around the country for two hours, and flying them into our major city plus the headquarters of a military while the administration did nothing.

There no way we will ever be "safe" from the likes of OKC, and we'll always be at risk from something like a truck bomb. We do NOT have to deal with the headquarters of our military getting hit by a hijacked airliner. That is a federal responsibility if anything is, and Bush is a miserable failure at it.

This is how Bush sounds about 911: "Look how well I'm doing, so far only ONE major massive, historic terrorist attack on my watch, and I'm doing much better now."

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Classical_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-04 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #11
37. Gore has made several speeches saying he would not have
invaded Iraq and personally believe that.
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rbrussell Donating Member (42 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-04 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #37
39. Al Gore...
Says a lot of things.

On that other site they've got lots of articles with all the things that Democrats said about Iraq. If we'd found massive stores of weapons there, every Democratic Presidential candidate would be screaming about how much they supported the war there.

It's time for a real progressive movement in this country. Dean isn't what matters, it's the movement.
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bearfartinthewoods Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-04 07:16 PM
Response to Reply #1
34. people seem to have forgtten 2/26
that the world trade towers was bombed by alquaeda the first time in
1993.


On 26th February 1993, at approximately 12.18 p.m., an improvised explosive device exploded on the second level of the World Trade Center parking basement.

The resulting blast produced a crater, approximately 150 feet in diameter and five floors deep, in the parking basement. The structure consisted mainly of steel-reinforced concrete, twelve to fourteen inches thick. The epicenter of the blast was approximately eight feet from the south wall of Trade Tower Number One, near the support column K31/8. The device had been placed in the rear cargo portion of a one-ton Ford F350 Econoline van, owned by the Ryder Rental Agency, Jersey City, New Jersey. Approximately 6,800 tons of material were displaced by the blast.

The main explosive charge consisted primarily of approximately 1,200 to 1,500 pounds of a home-made fertilizer-based explosive, urea nitrate. The fusing system consisted of two 20-minute lengths of a non-electric burning type fuse such as green hobby fuse. The hobby fuse terminated in the lead azide, as the initiator.

Also incorporated in the device and placed under the main explosive charge were three large metal cylinders (tare weight 126 pounds) of compressed hydrogen gas.



\
http://www.interpol.int/Public/Publications/ICPR/ICPR469_3.asp
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West Coast Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-04 06:16 PM
Response to Original message
2. This whole response to Dean's speech issue....
is becoming just as over-the-top as Dean's speech!!
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Ninga Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-04 06:17 PM
Response to Original message
3. You have the power rbrussell........
we are empowered to fight for real change. I love you! Great thoughtful post.
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leyton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-04 06:18 PM
Response to Original message
4. Well, I think America is exceptional.
We have a very successful democracy, and as a people, we don't tolerate the anti-Semitism and anti-Islam feelings that can get by in places like Europe and the Middle East. Yes, we've got our Jerry Falwell types, we're not perfect in that regard, but I think we deserve recognition. We have civil rights that you don't enjoy everywhere in the world. And the American Revolution did actually serve as an example for later revolutions in America. Plus, we have a lot of innovations to be proud of; America produces a lot of geniuses.

People are gonna get on here and say, "How naive, how self-centered, he probably thinks we should colonialize." Well, I don't think we should colonialize. But I think this is the greatest country in the world. We're not perfect, and it's not like we leave all the other countries in the dust or anything. But we're pretty darned good in the grand scheme of things.
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leyton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-04 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. To be appended
Not an edit because I expect a few replies pretty quickly:

I don't fully support the war in Iraq, but I support the war in Afghanistan. I'm not crazy about our environmental record either.
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Classical_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-04 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #4
40. Statistically there is more antisemitism in America
than contemporary Europe. Civil Rights are enjoyed in most Western Democracies.
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Indiana Democrat Donating Member (718 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-04 06:18 PM
Response to Original message
5. What do I think?
Dean committed suicide and now his supporters are pushing conspiracy theories.
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NewYorkerfromMass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-04 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #5
10. AP Story now: "Dean's Raucous Iowa Speech Lives On"
Edited on Wed Jan-21-04 06:25 PM by NewYorkerfromMass
http://www.newsday.com/news/politics/wire/sns-ap-deans-iowa-speech,0,3195658.story?coll=sns-ap-politics-headlines

Quotes from the article:

James Carville: "It hurt him."

Pat Buchanan: "I don't think it's survivable."

Pollster for the Boston Globe and WBZ-TV: "That speech could not have helped him in any way."

Political scientist and pollster from UNH: "I think it crystallized a lot of the concerns voters in Iowa had as well as voters in New Hampshire had about Dean's potential temperament as a president,"

Pollster from ARG: "That thing has legs..."

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teevee99 Donating Member (170 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-04 06:19 PM
Response to Original message
6. Howard Dean has done great things in this race.
But he's not the only politician inspiring people out there. Make no mistake that as evidenced by teh turnouts in Iowa and the interest in this race....Americans are waking up to the post-2000 Election World and realizing that we've got to keep an eye on our politicians.

Granted, Dr. Dean has energized a lot of people, but the same can be said for Clark and Kucinich.

Your post really does sound like sour grapes to me.
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George_Bonanza Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-04 06:20 PM
Response to Original message
9. Howard Dean has supported past U.S. military actions
Not to mention his friendly stance with AIPAC.

What is your basis on assuming that he will be so peaceful once in the White House? Because his campaign says so, or because you "trust him" (people sincerely trust Bush too)?
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windansea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-04 06:24 PM
Response to Reply #9
15. exactly n/t
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rbrussell Donating Member (42 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-04 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #9
21. Dean
Will need to rely upon us, his base, since he'll never have the loyalty of the Democratic establishment.

He's already made noises about Israel- I think you'll be surprised as to how hard he'd be on Israel.

And, in any case, like I said- the movement matters more than the man.
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KaraokeKarlton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-04 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #9
41. Kerry supporters should not criticize anyone on AIPAC
Kerry has his nose firmly planted up AIPAC's ass. He signed a letter to Bush from AIPAC demanding that Bush refuse to allow any envoys meet with Arafat and halt all peace talks until the suicide bombings stop. Of course, Kerry doesn't hold Israel to the same standard of behavior. It's the assholes on both sides of the conflict that are the problem...and the Palestinian people can no more control suicide bombers than Musharraff can control the actions of al qaeda members there.
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Emillereid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-04 06:21 PM
Response to Original message
12. Good analysis --
I concur -- especially about the need to create a truly progressive party that will provide a meaningful alternative to the Repukes.
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chimpymustgo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-04 06:21 PM
Response to Original message
13. Ralph, is that you?
nt
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-04 06:25 PM
Response to Reply #13
17. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
rbrussell Donating Member (42 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-04 06:27 PM
Response to Reply #13
19. Nader
I'm talking about a party which will mean to appeal to the mass of Americans.

The Green Party, however good its ideas are, will never do that. In any case- it's clear that the Clinton Democrats didn't get the message last time around.
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Jacobin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-04 06:23 PM
Response to Original message
14. What I find interesting, along the same lines as your piece
is today's posts on Kerry's fundraising going through the roof.
No more $50 and $100 from tens of thousands of americans, which Dean got. Now we are seeing large special interest contributions. And the efforts to ignore, suppress and cover-up this obvious ploy by corporatists to hedge their bets and jump on the next possible winner of the 2004 horse race are beyond the pale.

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rbrussell Donating Member (42 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-04 06:26 PM
Original message
Exactly
It's the same old story.

If we want to change things, then we've got to take risks.
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bearfartinthewoods Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-04 09:54 AM
Response to Original message
52. you are risking three pubbie SCOTUS appointees
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creativelcro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-04 06:24 PM
Response to Original message
16. Clinton did nothing serious for the environment. Period.
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West Coast Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-04 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. Is that you again, Ralph?
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jenk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-04 06:28 PM
Response to Original message
20. balderdash, dean did it to himself
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MuseRider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-04 06:30 PM
Response to Original message
22. First of all
welcome to DU. Now....I have to go so you may flame away after I am gone.

"but I see no candidate who makes serious proposals for a real effort at disarmament or at creating the true world-spanning institutions which can bring us real peace."

Did you get excited by Dean's campaign and just forget to look into the others campaigns and policies? I suggest you look around at some of the others.
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dolstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-04 06:32 PM
Response to Original message
23. Newsflash: Dean is NOT the messiah and Iowa was NOT a crucifixion
Howard Dean and his supporters need to get over their persecution complex. There was no conspiracy to deny Dean a victory in Iowa for the simple reason that Dean was never "entitled" to a victory in the first place. He lost because more voters preferred other candidates. These people aren't sheep -- they are just as capable of independent thought as Dean's supporters, and it's high time that the Dean camp started respecting the opinions of Democratic voters who don't consider Dean to be the greatest thing since sliced bread.

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Leilani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-04 06:47 PM
Response to Reply #23
29. Dean is NOT the messiah
and Iowa was NOT a crucifixion.

LOL! The martyrs at DU will disagree, but I sure appreciate it.
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displacedtexan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-04 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #23
31. Dean could be John the Baptist, though...
The one who paves the way...
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davidinalameda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-04 06:33 PM
Response to Original message
25. it seems to me that Dean was the candidate of the Washington establishment
he was drawing endorsements from all parts of the party

how much more establishment does one get than Al Gore and Bill Bradley--the two candidates in 2000

people need to remember that politics is a very fickle sport--you're on top one day and writing your concession speech the next

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library_max Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-04 06:37 PM
Response to Original message
26. Regarding Clinton
He didn't invade Iraq. He had Saddam Hussein contained and harmless without resorting to an illegal war. He created budget surpluses and a soaring economy with new jobs in six digits per year instead of four. He did have to contend with a Republican Congress. The reason he didn't submit the Kyoto accord to the Senate is because he knew it would be voted down - he was trying to keep it alive, not kill it. He never would have contemplated anything like the PATRIOT ACT. Geez, folks, are our memories so short that we can't remember how much better the Clinton years were than the Bush years? They weren't perfect, but what is?
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rbrussell Donating Member (42 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-04 06:48 PM
Response to Reply #26
30. I Never Believed...
That the economy of the late 1990's would last. That's why I sold my tech stocks early and kept out of that game. The 'Clinton economy' is a fiction, and always was. It was created by unfounded optimism and ignoring underlying conditions on the assumption that technology somehow rendered old economic assumptions moot.

Frankly, we grossly overestimate the effect that any President can have on the economy. In general, the only intruments which effect the economy which the President has some control over are interest rates. Everything else is about the luck of the draw.

Bill Clinton didn't 'create jobs' anymore than Ronald Reagan did. The market creates jobs, not government. Bill Clinton just talked about them a lot.

Second, if Bill Clinton knew that Kyoto would never be signed, he never should have ratified it. The US Senate passed a resolution rejecting Kyoto in principle by 98-1. That means (by my reading) that every Democrat but one was opposed as well. There's no way that it ever would have got to 2/3's.

A different treaty might have. But Clinton wanted to play political games, so he signed it even though he knew it would never pass. The results are as follows:
1) We had to hurt our international reputation by withdrawing from the treaty.
2) We've had seven years pass with no action on Greenhouse gases, when we could have had some.
3) We've made further action impossible for some time.

I'm well aware that George Bush is anti-environment, but even if he wasn't, that treaty wasn't going to pass. And he simply bowed to reality in the matter. The problem is that the rest of the world, when we signed the treaty, thought we were in. They didn't understand how things work here. That's what really upset so many.

Now, as you might gather, I was never a fan of Clinton (I voted for him in the General Election in 1992 and 1996, but didn't like doing it)- his era was one of glib political theatrics over real progress.

And- for all I despise the war, Bill Clinton killed far more Iraqis than George W. Bush did our would by keeping those inhumane sanctions in place. Something like 500,000 Iraqis died as a result of those sanctions. Something like 5000 Iraqi civillians have died as a result of the war to date.

And Clinton did contemplate something very much like the PATRIOT Act, over Oklahoma City- it was voted down by Republicans (who, being in opposition, then loved civil liberties). They morhped what he proposed into a law strengthening the death penalty.

Let's not look for another Clinton, let's look for someone better.
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pretzel4gore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-04 07:20 PM
Response to Reply #30
35. clinton ran the country for 8 years...
and for 8 years the righteous conspired against him.....the 1st wtc attack was organized while oldbush was boss; and the hatred of clinton (for racialist reasons, probably) might well have tempered his efforts to control the military industrial cia and biz gangs all that time....we know not what really happened behind the scenes, the threats against clinton's family etc (not to mention clinton himself)
Another thing. 911 was georgebushamerica attacking clinton america, only bushinc has benefitted from the horror (the 'terrorists' certainly haven't) and i'd bet bush's left nut he knew something was up (his cowardly response that day may have been his suspicion that if the criminals could do THAT, maybe he get taken out too)...
Mind you, Clinton's time is passed; it's hard to believe he still loves america after what the country has done.
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West Coast Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-04 07:21 PM
Response to Reply #30
36. What's up with the Clinton Bashing?
Is that what the Dean movement is all about? It'll fail even more, if that's the case.
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nankerphelge Donating Member (995 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-04 06:40 PM
Response to Original message
28. This is exactly right...
whether the rest of you like it or not. Anybody but Dean will be defeated in 2004.
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oasis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-04 06:56 PM
Response to Original message
32. Praise Dean and trash Clinton to your heart's content. As for striking a
fatal blow to the Democratic party, bring it on.

Beating Bush is the number one concern of real Democrats. Purification of the party can, and must be put on hold with so much at stake. Bush will appoint 3 Supreme Court justices if he serves another four year term.

Question: Will you be part of the solution or part of the problem?
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rbrussell Donating Member (42 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-04 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #32
38. Beating Bush
If beating George W. Bush is our "only concern" why don't we just nominate Jeb Bush? That'll probably work.

Excuse me if beleiving in values over winning makes me less than a "real" Democrat, I didn't know that our party was requiring oaths of fealty now.
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oasis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-04 08:38 PM
Response to Reply #38
49.  "values" and $2.50 will buy a cup of Starbucks when Bush is reinstalled.
What about those already hurt by the Bush regime? I guess they can wait another four years for a "true" savior.

Years ago, after the earthquake in Kobe Japan, the Prime Minister of Japan was too proud to immediately accept the help offered by the U.S. Meanwhile, the citizens of Kobe were reduced to drinking sewer water.

The common good became a victim of the Prime Minister's
"values".
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cprise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-04 06:56 PM
Response to Original message
33. Clinton eventually said he would not support Kyoto
I give Clinton credit for being being fiscally responsible. Of course, much of that prosperity was at the expense of the 3rd world.

As for Dean, he won't run as an Ind. Nader may do so, if Dean doesn't get nominated.

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overground1 Donating Member (322 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-04 07:38 PM
Response to Original message
43. Don't give up on Dean! - Don't believe the "media" smear campaign!
Dean is NOT finished! Dean is NOT "angry" or "unstable"! And Dean is not "unelectable"! This is a right-wing media smear on our (former) front-runner. The next wave of attacks are underway for our new front-runners. It is systematic! It will not stop with Dean! Do NOT believe the "media" smears! Do Not let the "media" label our candidates!
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-04 07:39 PM
Response to Original message
44. great post!
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-04 07:55 PM
Response to Original message
45. I've been saying that for years, although my personal preference
would be for Kucinich to run as a Green. Nonetheless, I think you are exactly correct-- the dem leadership is way too entrenched in the status quo. That's why so many of them are so busy trying to explain their lack of real opposition to the Bush* regime now. Why would anyone vote for people who simply went along with Bush* when we can have the real thing?
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shance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-04 08:32 PM
Response to Original message
47. Great post RB***
Really appreciated what you had to say.

I do think there would have been some significant difference from the way Clinton and Gore handled 9/11, because they didnt have an agenda, and John Ashcroft. Yes Clinton atleast (I dont believe Gore is) is multilateral, and is more inline with the American agenda of globalization, but in my opionion not nearly to the extreme of this administration.

However the rest of it, BRAVO!!

Incredibly inciteful and I think you are right on!
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arewethereyet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-04 08:34 PM
Response to Original message
48. the first step is acceptence
this has been a suicide folks. The press will always help out anyone intent upon making themselves look bad.
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Shanty Oilish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-04 08:39 PM
Response to Reply #48
50. Nixon: I gave them a sword
Dean: "yeeeeeeaaaaaaaawwrrrrrrrgh!!!!!!"

Clark: "Period."

The media did what they always do, and after all, they lifted him up. Covers of Time and Newsweek and twice the ink anyone else got.
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NewYorkerfromMass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-04 12:28 AM
Response to Reply #50
51. Too true: the media lifted him up.....
and well, you know the rest.
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