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Bouncy Ball Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-10-05 02:33 PM
Original message
I have some questions about the republican party.....
I was a teenager and young adult during the Reagan years and I can only vaguely remember Ford, but am I mistaken in thinking the republicans USED to be for the following things:

1. Smaller government

2. Less intrusion into people's private lives

3. Fiscal responsibility/balanced budgets (am I wrong on that one? Maybe that was never theirs....)


Am I just remembering incorrectly? Because nowdays I cannot IMAGINE anyone thinking the republicans are for any of those three items. Their every move in the last several years has been quite the opposite approach. repukes in Virginia just introduced a bill to fine people $50 if their underwear is showing out the top of their pants.

Also, it seems to me I can remember a time when the differences between the two parties represented an honest set of different opinions on how government should be run and the involvement of government in people's lives, not the huge Grand Canyon of a chasm that marks the difference between the two parties today. Am I right in remembering it that way?

(I was a bit busy dancing around to ZZ Top's "Velcro Fly," shopping for acid wash jeans and pink pumps, dating, and doing chemistry homework, so I might not be remembering correctly.)
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MarianJack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-10-05 02:36 PM
Response to Original message
1. True on all 3,...
...but remember, today's republican party is about "If we do it, it's O.K."
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hvn_nbr_2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-10-05 06:24 PM
Response to Reply #1
22. Well, they always SAID they were for all 3...
but most never were. Some have been for #3 all along. Only the relatively small libertarian wing ever really was for all 3.

1. Small govt. - To Pugs, a dollar spent to help poor, sick, or old people is big government, but a trillion dollars spent to invade small countries and overthrow democracies and just to give "billions to buddies" is small government. Preventing big business from poisoning people is big government; subsidizing big business to poison people is small government. One dollar to a poor person is big government; a hundred billion dollars to big business is small government. More at point 2.

2. Less intrusion into people's private lives. NEVER, at least during my lifetime (age 57), has this been a Pug priority; just the opposite. When they said, "Get big government off our backs," they mean and always meant get it off big business's back, meaning let big business do anything they want regardless of any effect on anyone. Censoring what you can read or see in a movie, restricting what plants you may grow or use, regulating whom you may have sex with and how, and on and on... These are not less intrusive into people's private lives, and they are and have been Pug priorities. Forcing their religion on everyone is not less intrusive in people's lives either.

3. Fiscal responsibility/balanced budgets - A significant number of them have actually been for that and some still are. There are rumblings from them about Shrubler's budget. However, to a large extent, it was always just an opposition ploy when they didn't control either house of Congress for decades after McCarthyism went boom.

When Pugs talk about small government and intrusiveness in people's lives, it's always B#||&#!T. Has been for at least 50 years.
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hvn_nbr_2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-10-05 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. One more point on fiscal responsibility
Which three recent presidents have run up the biggest deficits and most increased the national debt? Raygun, Bush I, and Shrubler. Raygun and Bush I quadrupled the national debt in 12 years.

Which recent presidents have reduced the deficits or shown a surplus? Carter and Clinton.
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MarianJack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-10-05 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. You're Right, of course, on both points.
I wasn't saying that this was what the rethuglicans DID, I said that these points were what they SAID they favored. As we all know, what they say and what they do are exact opposites.
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liberal N proud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-10-05 02:39 PM
Response to Original message
2. Use to be, but now they just want to destroy you and control
your every thought and action.
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CindyDale Donating Member (941 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-10-05 02:40 PM
Response to Original message
3. That was when they didn't have much power
There were Republican presidents, but the legislatures tended to be Democratic.
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Bouncy Ball Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-10-05 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #3
11. Ahhhh
well that explains a lot.
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fryguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-10-05 02:40 PM
Response to Original message
4. you're way way way off base....
acid wash jeans and pink pumps, what were you thinking??!?!?

but seriously, i've been thinking the same thing. they way chimp and company is ruling the country would make actual republicans - as opposed to neoconservative christian-fundamentalist industrialists - cringe. seeking to have the federal government intrude into people's homes to tell them how and how not to behave; running up deficit after deficit, completely ignoring the mantra of a balanced budget; passing along unfunded mandates to the states; engaging in nation building at a grand scale; creating the largest federal bureaucracy; just to name a few things....

but i guess as long as they keep calling for tax cuts they consider themselves repukes.....
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Bouncy Ball Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-10-05 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #4
12. Yeah it seems like they are the EXACT opposite of what they used to
be and I just wanted to make sure my memory wasn't failing me or I wasn't rose-tinting the past in light of how bad things are now.

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Vincardog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-10-05 02:40 PM
Response to Original message
5. You are correct in your description of traditional Republican
values. They never wanted top spend money on Social Programs. They never were for the people only business. That being said the current regime in charge (The American Tali ban) Does not represent anything Republican beyond Racist hate mongering and a Love of propaganda.

Remember aWoL is as close to traditional Republican
As Jesus is to Judaism.
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rogerashton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-10-05 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #5
17. Actually, the Repubs were not that bad on racism before George Wallace --
at least as long as opposing racism didn't cut the profit margin. Senator (grandfather) Prescott Bush was often a good guy on that score.

But then Schoolhouse Door led the racists out of the Democratic Party and the Republicans saw their opportunity ...
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hvn_nbr_2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-10-05 06:44 PM
Response to Reply #17
26. Legacy of Lincoln and the Civil War
For a long, long time the racists hung out in the Democratic Party, after the Republican Lincoln freed the slaves. That's the source of what used to be called the "Solid South," when Dems could count on carrying the south pretty much all the time.

When Lyndon Johnson signed the civil rights act, he said that it would make the south Republican for at least a generation, and he was right. Nixon's "southern strategy" completed the role reversal of the parties on that issue.

Remember those maps after election 2004 that showed pre-1860 slave states and 2004 red states? No coincidence.

Now that I think about it, it might behoove today's Dems to study how Republicans ever elected presidents between 1865 and 1965. Hmmm, something to look into.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-10-05 02:44 PM
Response to Original message
6. You've described the GOP of Barry Goldwater
It died a long time ago, taken over by religious fanatics.
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LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-10-05 06:37 PM
Response to Reply #6
24. I go to church with a guy who used to be a Goldwater Republican
He's a Dem now.
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GOPBasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-10-05 02:48 PM
Response to Original message
7. Yep, they were once.
Now, they want a Christian theocracy. Also, they want to keep increasing spending on wars and the military while giving giant tax cuts to billionaires. They don't give two shits about the debt they're creating from those two things, because they think the Rapture is coming soon. Why care about debt if we're all going to die anyway?
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Salviati Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-10-05 02:49 PM
Response to Original message
8. I can imagine people thinking that the republicans are for these things...
No one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people
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Bouncy Ball Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-10-05 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #8
14. I haven't thought they were for these things
since, oh, sometime late in the Reagan years or early bush I years.

But yeah, the idea that anyone thinks they are like that NOW is mind-boggling.

Does anyone remember that picture of Clinton and Gore sitting in front of stacks and stacks of pages they had eliminated from goverment manuals because they streamlined stuff and took out redundant information in an attempt to slim down the federal government?

That seems very old-school republicanish to me now.
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JerseygirlCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-10-05 02:49 PM
Response to Original message
9. Well
They've usually said they're for number 1

Number 2 is iffy. There were the Goldwater types who really did have a rather libertarian view on social/personal issues. But their have always been the sniffly puritanical types who need to point fingers at others in order to feel virtuous.

Number 3? What they say/said. Not necessarily what they do/did.

The best representatives of those views, it seems to my memory (which obviously stretches farther back than yours -- I was in H.S. for Ford) were, ironically enough, the Northeast liberal Republicans. The ones who would be run out of town on a rail today.

But I'm just a regular person, not a historian. I could be wrong!
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BurgherHoldtheLies Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-10-05 02:49 PM
Response to Original message
10. Hard to believe, isn't it....
Today they are the party of government micro-management of people's personal lives and spend, spend, spend


Although, looking back, also being a teen/young adult during Reagan, I now think that maybe the Dems were scapegoated on spending when the Dems controlled Congress...today, the Republicans must take ownership of the ballooning deficit because they OWN it all.

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ktowntennesseedem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-10-05 02:50 PM
Response to Original message
13. True.
Just ask any longtime diehard Repub who still believes in those three tenets, and they'll likely tell you (if they'll admit it) that they believe their party was hijacked by the religious right. The new party merely gives lip service to traditional Republican values, and they are focused on very different priorities.

Of course, some diehards are also religious conservatives, and see no problem with having different priorities these days. And still others, while upset over the recent direction their party has taken, aren't upset enough to demand changes or jump ship... at least not yet, anyway. But some, just how many is anyone's guess, are upset enough and quite ready to listen to some alternatives. Perhaps we're not the right alternative for them, and don't think I'm advocating we soften our message in hopes of winning a few. I am advocating that we communicate a consistant, honest, visionary, hopeful message, and we just might get a few disgruntled, alternative-seeking Republicans to listen.
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Bouncy Ball Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-10-05 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. You mean like the DUer right above you?
LOL. ModRepubinPA is a republican, but an old-school one, apparently, who is not happy with the republican party of today. So unhappy, he voted for Kerry.

They're out there.
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BurgherHoldtheLies Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-10-05 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. Not just Kerry....
Been voting Dem for President since 1992...that's when the Rapturist Right really started demanding power within the GOP. We (liberal/moderate Republicans) used to LOL at the likes of Falwell, Robertson, etc. threatening the GOP and then running their own campaigns for President when their demands weren't met.

Personally, it was the Quayle factor that initially got me motivated to vote for Clinton and Clinton was one hell of a politician. Quayle was a complete buffoon fighting holy-wars with imaginary TV characters (Murphy Brown)...it was just the tip of the iceberg, sadly. Today they actually get MSM interviews to attack SpongeBob and Buster.:crazy:
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Bouncy Ball Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-10-05 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. Mea culpa.
I am so sorry, I didn't know your voting record for Dems went that far back.

A brain is a VERY appropriate avatar for you.

:yourock:

I feel like a shitty Democrat now. I never voted for Clinton. I voted for Perot in 92 (I know, spank me) and I missed the registration deadline in 96 (had just moved, but was fully planning on voting for Clinton that year).

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ktowntennesseedem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-10-05 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. Yes, what used to be buffoons on the fringe
are now accepted as mainstream. I used to laugh at them too, but now there are too many of them, and they are elevated to official spokesperson, by the MSM if not the party leadership. I'm not laughing anymore.

Good to see you here, ModRebup! I'm glad that we're big enough and open enough to include people of many different stripes, and grateful that you have struck another blow at useless and hurtful stereotypes!
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ginnyinWI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-10-05 07:53 PM
Response to Reply #18
28. I voted repub until voting for Clinton in '92, also
I wasn't a committed one, just voted the way my family did. They still do, and I think they believe that it is the same party---NOT.
I liked Clinton so finally made the break. Then got more involved by 2000, when I voted for Gore with actual knowledge of his policies etc. Bush made me sick at first sight. Still does.

The point is, once I really paid attention and thought about it, and stopped feeling pressured to vote GOP, I realized I was a Democrat. Going back to school and finishing my degree around that same time helped solidify my views.
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MemphisTiger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-10-05 02:55 PM
Response to Original message
16. These are all true, except when it benifits them to do the
opposite
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davepc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-10-05 06:07 PM
Response to Original message
21. Read "Thunder on the Right" by Alan Crawford
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/039474862X/qid=1108076789/sr=8-2/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/102-8800251-4356926?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

Explains the rise of the radical right from the ground floor from the ashes of Goldwater up till just before Regan was elected.
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Lexingtonian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-10-05 07:47 PM
Response to Original message
27. more so, yes

But that was the day when they were to appearances the party of middle-of-the road Northern small businessfolk and proposed to be the party of Lincoln. But even then they weren't a particularly morally well grounded lot, with this respectability-centered middle class approach. They were the party of corporation managers and their prostitute underlings all along. (Think: Nixon.) The people who really ran the Party kept in the background for a long time and cut deals with the Southern Democrats (in particular) to get things they wanted. And remember that this was a country of white men and bosses at the time- really, no one else even got close to real power. MLK was the first non-white man with truly great power in the American imagination since Tecumseh, and you know how that ended in both cases.

The Republican Party is now exactly the party of bosses and white men who want that game- their exclusive power- to continue for as long as possible. There were always two reasons why the Republican alliance up to the 1980s wanted 'small government' and 'less government intrusion' and 'fiscal responsibility'. For the little guy Republican, it was a way of asserting a moral superiority and maturity and individualism against a hughly expanding society (100 million in 1931, 200 million in 1964, 300 million in ~2010) and the chaos...it was also kind of a throwback to agrarian society, where people lived far apart from one another that looking into your neighbor's business involved a deliberate effort.

But the plutocracy and corporate CEO/Board sorts wanted 'small government' etc simply so that there would be no checks on what they did to people with less wealth, qualifications, and powerful friends than themselves. These have been simply bullies wanting to fight for individual glory and take out rivals and step all over simpler people, and banding together when they got accused of criminal violations.

These days, now that these kind of people have gotten control of 'the government' in all the ways that matter to them- the electorate let them have it fully once the Cold War was settled, because they claimed to know what to do and the electorate didn't. Now they're simply using government to bully the people they don't like, impose order on things they don't understand, and play out all the resentments and games they wanted to play that the Cold War forced them to defer. All these "principles" don't matter, really- this is politics, not organized religion. The little moralistic people were easy to corrupt- the big people lied to them, and let them share in the fun of bullying and projection and victimizing scapegoats.

It's easy to see now that the Reagan Presidency was a rearguing of the FDR reforms, Bush Sr. replayed Truman/Korea, and Clinton's time was a rehashing of the domestic fights of the Fifties- the McCarthy era (the 'Contract') and early feminism (Lewinsky affair) and early/mid Civil Rights resentments (the Bush/Gore campaign). Bush Jr.'s Presidency started out replaying the Gary Powers affair (the E-3/China incident), the Kennedy cleanup of the Mafia (Enron etc), then the Cuban missile/extremism crises (9/11 & Afghanistan), then the Gulf of Tonkin (WMD) and South Vietnam (Iraq 'democratization') plus refighting the domestic conflict around/about Vietnam (the Swift Boat people, the Kerry campaign).

The Bushies started off pretending to be Eisenhower Republicans in 2000, shook off their Goldwater sorts via '9/11' and e.g. Jeffords, their Civil Rights Act is now the gay marriage matter...they're now fully Nixon types, with lots of incompetent and reactionary people choosing them because the world seems too chaotic. We've seen the 1968 effect, where a bunch of moderate Republicans went over to Democrats and a lot of reactionaries went over to Republicans. We've gone through our 1972-ish election, and right now we're seeing the Bush people go through what the Nixon people were doing in 1973: a war is lost, almost putting the War (for/against Modernity) in a larger sense at risk; the aim was too ambitious and known to be so. The domestic governance scandals are slowly creeping up, the economy is in disarray and overexposed to globalization and being screwed with in the wrong way, Roe v Wade is being argued about but neither side has the energy to change the result.

And yes, the Nixon people were as authoritarian and backed by all the plutocrats of the country as the Bush people are now. But don't forget- the Bush people are recapitulating the past and its resentments at a rate of about 4:1 in time (4 years of the Seventies/one year in the present) and are perhaps accelerating that rate, mining this past for all the political capital they can and extinguishing the political value of that past at the same time. They do intend to screw with Iran (remember 1978-80) and Castro's allies in Latin America (remember 1978-86)- iow, with Iran and Venezuela- again. But also, don't forget that once they get at the Reagan era part of their agenda (should be in 2006) the backlash involved can be predicted to be liberal/Modern rather than reactionary/antiModern.

So I wouldn't take any of this retro 'small government' and other stuff seriously. It's all obsolete stuff, no Republican leader actually believes or implements any of it (except to disable regulation of some industry run by his buddies)- a country of 300 million people can't function with the 1800's 'small government'. In fact, Republicans are proving it every day and every hour. Doesn't 24/7 Republican propaganda and the need for it amount to a Republican 'lifestyle', to a cultism, to the way their faith in themselves requires a ridiculous amount of propping and rationalization and obfuscation and escapism and idolatry, provided by their rulers? Could any Republican voter really do without a constant dose of that psychological crutching and drugging?




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