You cannot beat something with nothing.

[kentuck]

Is it time for the Democrats to propose their own solution to the so-called Social Security "crisis"? And shouldn't it be something that is in direct contrast to the Bush plan? Or do they not have a responsibility to put anything forward - that it is enough to simply criticize the Bush plan? Shouldn't this have been done like yesterday?

[StephanieMarie]

1. I keep screaming "raise the minimum wage"

but no one hears me.

[sandnsea]

3. We need TIA

Have him run the numbers for the increase in FICA taxes if we raised the minimum wage to $7, and another set of numbers if we put in a living wage at around $10. And then indexed that to inflation.

[Nederland]

25. Doesn't work that way

The impact of increasing the minimum wage is not an exercise in statistics, which is what TIA has the most experience with.

[sandnsea]

31. It's numbers calculations

Which would seem to me to be a piece of cake compared with his running of statistics.

[mattclearing]

9. I don't think this is a solution.

It hurts small businesses, devalues the dollar even further (and it's already hurting), and just generally has very little to do with Social Security.

[TreeHuggingLiberal]

28. My family owns a small business...

and it would not kill their business to raise minimum wage to $7.00. It is just an issue of how you choose to treat a fundamental part of the backbone of this nation. From my paycheck, I currently have around 17% coming out total for all tax purposes (including SS) per check. This is when I make $250 per week after taxes. If a family is supported by two family members working full time for minimum wage, they will bring home, for 45 hour work weeks each, an total of $385 together after tax deductions. If you have a family of four, that is pretty tough work.

It would seem likely that with the added income funneling into the economy with the hypothetical raise in M.W. the government could add some prime tax incentives to small businesses to help with the transition to a higher minimum wage. Plus when the lower income families receive money we are more likely to actually have to use that money through purchasing and not just tucking it away. I was never able to understand how the workers put up with the governments shafting until the last 10 years or so when I saw the mastery of the Wedge Issues by the GOP. The wedges are driven in strong by the "don't let the liberals shred our moral values" bullshit.

[mattclearing]

34. You understand, of course, that the dollar isn't a set measure, right?

When you raise the minimun wage, you increase costs for everyone across the board for that same hour of labor. That's inflation.

Increasing the minimum wage is basically inflating the currency.

Shortly after it happens, prices go up, and you will find that very little has improved.

[Robbien]

21. Why are you suggesting alternatives? Do you feel SS is in CRISES?

Is Social Security in so much trouble that we just have to come up with alternatives? What's the matter?

Social Security doesn't even have a problem until 2052. Many many other areas need a solution before we even need to think of changing Social Security.

[kentuck]

23. It will be in a crisis, for real, if Bush gets his way...

and that is why the Democrats should come up with a plan of their own, whether it is a crisis or not. They cannot set back and let Bush sell this crap to the people.

[Robbien]

27. The RNC keeps goading, "Come up with a plan of your own"

"you can't fight our plan until you come up with a plan of your own." and once the Democratic party changes from backing Social Security to a alternative plan, the RNC will say "SEE Social Security is in Crisis, even the Democrats are suggesting solutions".

Yeah right, just a fool's game.

[sandnsea]

2. Stop calling it a crisis

social security dismantling, piratizing, call it any fucking thing but crisis. What the fuck is it about people who don't know how to echo? That's the first goddamned thing you can do.

The solution is no private accounts because social security is an insurance program for widows, orphans, disabled and elderly. We need to save it, even if we have to adjust taxes down the road.

And pay attention to the real crisis, health care.

Can you hang on to that for a day or two? Simple enough for you?

[kentuck]

11. "...the so-called Social Security "crisis"?

Who's calling it a crisis??? Why even use quotation marks - they are lost on some people.

[sandnsea]

12. NO, you can't

How the hell do you think they made up "partial birth"? We should have called it what it was from the beginning, a D&X that's used for medical emergencies. But noooo, they won the word game which was half the battle. If we concede the word crisis, then that gives the public the impression there's a crisis to discuss. That's half their battle. We have to stop doing that.

[kentuck]

17. Well, thank you....

for your wise words.

[sandnsea]

30. Don't listen

And don't bitch about not getting our message out or having no message.

That happened all last year. Everybody thought they knew better so they spent all their time bitching instead of just spreading the message the campaign put out. Sometimes you do just have to get the fuck in line.

[kentuck]

32. I don't stand in lines..

:shrug: sorry.

[sandnsea]

33. Exactly

That's the problem. How can the Democratic Party ever have a message if the rank and file always thinks they know better?

If they were offering a different solution, you'd be here bitching that they were compromising and not ripping Bush up about the fake crisis. I've seen you do this shit enough that I know it's true.

Some people really need to take a look in the mirror and just admit they're chronic malcontents.

[sadiesworld]

4. According to Reid, * hasn't presented them with a specific proposal

yet...so why present a counter-proposal? * wants the dems to do his dirty work in coming up with the answers to his "crisis". I think the dems are on the right track, they just need to explain the "IOU" issue a bit more clearly.

[hughee99]

20. Why present a counter-proposal?

If the dems can come up with the answers to his "crisis" why shouldn't they? Wouldn't it be better in the long run if they come up with a solution and make * get on board? Wouldn't that make it our issue and show our party as the party of ideas, rather than wait for his awful plan to come out and the be the party of opposition? People are always talking about "going on the offensive", wouldn't this be more offensive than waiting for his plan?

[kentuck]

22. By the time he waits for Bush's "specific" proposal...

the sheeple will have already bought his idea of a "crisis". Of course, there is no crisis in SS. But that does not mean we do not need to offer an alternative idea. Because there is a crisis in spending and debt which will indeed affect SS in the future. Because the IOUs in the SS fund will have to be paid in a few short years. Where is that money going to come from. Huh?

[sadiesworld]

35. I didn't say the dems shouldn't have a RESPONSE.

The response is:

There IS NO crisis UNLESS * is saying the US Government does not intend to honor the debt owed the American middle class. The upcoming shortfall in SS (due to the retirement of the baby boomers) was anticipated 20 years ago and SS taxes were doubled in order to prepare for that event. However, the surplus has been "borrowed" in order to fund the running of the government. The debt owed SS is no different than the debt owed foreign countries and wealthy investors. The problem is the overall debt of the government, NOT SS.

We are prepared to discuss ways in which to reduce the debt.

[Griffy]

5. NO.. SCREAM about the tactic of fake crisis.. dont do anything to it!

SS does not need anything for awhile... medicare needs help. our Vets need help, Millions of Americans without healthcare.. expose the roots.. and we can weed the white house!

[BlueInRed]

15. Exactly -- fake crisis!

This is dead on. We need to set the record straight and fast.

[txaslftist]

6. There is no damn crisis...

...ergo, nothing to beat except what the republicans are obsessed with beating...

if ya know what I mean.

[liberal43110]

7. Remove the wage cap on the FICA tax

The FICA tax that funds SS is capped currently at $90k, which means that any wages over that amount are not subject to the FICA tax. If you simply eliminate that cap so that all wages (wages--not even investment income) are subject to FICA the problem would be solved. Period. SS would continuously be funded. Period.

[MockSwede]

13. BINGO

That's a great idea and it's one I have suggested repeatedly. All those 20 to 40 million dollar CEO incomes would bring in a lot of money.

[BlueInRed]

16. If we must present an idea, this is it !

You are so right. Removing the cap is the easiest way to shore up the trust fund, but they will scream bloody murder over that one.

[EVDebs]

8. All these 'crises' stem from Globalization...

and its handmaiden 'concentration of wealth'. SS can be fixed by lifting the payroll cap from $90K to $120K...making the wealthier pay into the system a bit more;

Globalization corporations, outsourcing jobs should be taxed accordingly, along with a rise in Living Wage/minimum wage, accompanied by a phased citizenship plan for those illegal immigrants hired here by corporations/companies illegally. Those same illegals could then sue, or US workers sue if they were displaced illegally, and then those corporations and individuals could either settle with a fine (Lou Dobbs says $10K per incident) or go to court and risk paying more.

The top 5% have been killing this country and causing the jobs offshoring for their benefit. It's time to get equity. NOW.

[tkmorris]

10. What do you do?

It's an interesting problem but really, what do you do when the Repubs start proposing solutions to a problem that doesn't exist? Proposing an alternative plan is de facto acceptance of their assertion that a crisis exists when in fact it does not. At least not in the way that they claim.

[BlueInRed]

14. We have a responsibility to frame the debate (no "crisis"), not just rebut

Your thoughtful question assumes SS is "broken", which it is not. SS does not need "fixing" at the moment, although Congress needs to STOP using the excess funds for other things. (ie, LOCKBOX) The only thing they need to do is stop raiding the trust fund.

We must frame the debate by showing SS is NOT broken and IS solvent. We must get out there BEFORE the idea that that it is going bankrupt takes hold. Already, many in the public are saying, SS is broken, which means Bush has set the frame.

The fact we think we have to put forth a plan shows we have bought into Bush's main assumption, that SS is broken and the trust fund is worthless. Fifty years is a long way into the future. SS's solvency will depend on economic conditions during those years; if we do well, the trust fund will swell and no problem. If we have a recession or depression, we might have a problem. And whether we maintain a huge budget deficit will also have an impact.

[kentuck]

19. The crisis is in not responding properly

imo..But there is another crisis looming. It is with the debt and the huge deficits that Bush and the Repubs have foisted upon us. That is what we need to offer an alternative response to. He just announced a $419billion defense budget...How's he going to pay for it?

[BlueInRed]

24. I completely agree about the budget

and I think we need to say the only thing jeopardizing social security is the huge budget deficits he is running up.

[kentuck]

26. You said it!

Why can't our leaders???

[BlueInRed]

29. You'll appreciate this article I just found

This article basically confirms what you said!

<snip>
Bill Gross, manager of the world's largest bond fund, is criticizing President Bush's plan to privatize part of Social Security.

Gross, managing director at Pimco, called the argument about the solvency of Social Security "silly" and said it was an example of the president not focusing on more important issues, such as the budget deficit.
. . .
By reducing budget deficits now, and especially that portion of the deficit owed to foreign governments, we would be able to keep more of our domestic production within our borders and therefore available to senior citizens.
<snip>
http://money.cnn.com/2005/02/04/markets/gross_social_security/index.htm

[Robbien]

18. We have one. ITS CALLED SOCIAL SECURITY!!!!!

Social SECURITY, not a gamble it all plan of the RNC.

edit: and isn't it funny that you feel the same way the RNC does in that it needs to keep pushing and pushing the idea that the Democratic party needs an alternative. The right wing feels that is the way to keep the idea going that Social SECURITY is in trouble. "See," they say, "even the Democrats are coming up with alternatives so Social Security must be in trouble."

[1democracy]

36. Fabulous discussion of Social Security Vs

Privatization, how it's worked in other countries at
http://www.onpointradio.org/shows/2005/02/20050204_a_main.asp
my local NPR.

After listening, I think we are the envy of the world and all we have to do is repeal those tax cuts for the rich.