Gonzalez AG Appt Senate Debate: Official Thread #3

[Skidmore]

Continued from:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1553224

with Cornyn still trying to justify the air he breathes.

[genius]

1. When is he going to shut up?

Does anyone have anything to put him out of his misery? Hitler would be proud of this guy.

[Skidmore]

2. They're trying to keep Kennedy's time down.

God, I hope this party fillibusters their brains out.

[G_j]

4. Cornyn

not to make light of 'torture' but listening to him sure verges on it

[LSparkle]

9. He's a camera hog -- first on Condi

now this. Never-ending bloviation.

[cbear70]

16. why do republicans

insist on saying that the overwhelming majority of americans agree with them.. like we think gonzalez is the epitome of the american dream... earlier a repub called the cspan line and said the majority of americans don't care about torture... it angers me that they lump us all together...

really wish they would fillibuster...

[LSparkle]

3. He just called some of the soldiers "miscreants"!

Where is the outrage? Talk about "blaming America first" -- no Democrat I've heard has called our soldiers anything CLOSE to that. Unbelievable!

[NewYorkerfromMass]

6. Well if we can have 'miscreant' soldiers

then we can certainly have 'miscreant' WH counsels.
I wonder if that has occurred to him?

[LSparkle]

8. Even if it was a reference to only a handful

He really stooped with that characterization. And no mention of what the higher-ups advocated, or the hell that the war wrought on them ... Totally disrespectful of their service. When Teddy finally gets up there, I hope he mentions it.

[EFerrari]

5. I want a transcript of this mendacity. It's the basis for a dissertation

on propaganda.

[LSparkle]

7. "Tried his best"?

But admittedly didn't search for some responsive materials? This is Alice in Wonderland territory ...

[dandrhesse]

10. I'm hispanic and I'm mad!

If there are any other hispanics out there that are more than a little ticked that they keep holding Mr. Torture Gonzalez up as a shining example to all hispanics then email or call Senator Hatch, Specter, or this idiot Cornyn! Thanks!

[JoMama49]

13. The Senior Senator from MA up now!

[EFerrari]

15. I called both. And both offices sounded like unhappy campers. n/t

[rqstnnlitnmnt]

21. yeah that PISSED me off

screw them, using our heritage as a rallying cry around vile hacks like gonzalez

the difference is that they look at him and all they see is race

i look at him and all i see is a vicious psychopath

[LittleClarkie]

28. Suddenly they're into Affirmative Action?

Should we congratulate them on the breakthrough?

[dandrhesse]

40. This is what I wrote to them

I am hispanic and vehemently object to you holding up Alberto Gonzalez as a wonderful example to all hispanics!

Many attorneys and judges nationwide are hispanic, many I am proud to say are hispanic, but Alberto Gonzalez is not one of them. Whether or not he implicitly knew about the now infamous "torture" memos is of little consequence.

Gonzalez is seen by the world as the attorney who gave Mr. Bush the go ahead to torture any one who "looks" like a terrorist suspect which has included many hispanics as well as Middle Easterners.

You keep saying what a wonderful story he has, the American dream as if is it so amazing a lowly hispanic could achieve such a lofty goal?

You may think you are paying him and the hispanic community a compliment but being exploited for political reasons has never been a compliment to someone hispanic or any other race.

Using ethnicity as an excuse to confirm someone that all americans should be ashamed of, is a sad comment on the state of the GOP and the Senate Leadership.

Shame on you for being party to it and lowering the GOP yet another notch.

[EFerrari]

11. I wish some Dem would stand up and say, "Partisan, you betcha."

And then reframe it in terms of Dem values. That's what I do know. Takes the wind right out of those sails.

[G_j]

12. let em have it Ted! n/t

[LSparkle]

14. Go Teddy go ...

[EFerrari]

17. How old is Teddy? God, I remember when he was the baby.

I dread the day he retires or we lose him. He's a no sh#t guy.

[Just Me]

19. I have come to greatly admire this advocate for "the people"!!!

There are few who compare to Sen. Kennedy. Wish we had more like him.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

18. what's he saying? whats he saying...and is he wearing comfy shoes?.....

i don't get c-span2 and i need you guys to tell me what's he saying ...please pleeease please?

[Duncan Grant]

20. It's so compelling that it's hard to pull away to type!

:hi: I'll give it a try here in a minute...

[EFerrari]

22. Sorry, he's going down the list of the facts, without apology.

-- Torture is against everything we stand for.
--- The memorandum became our official policy for 2.5 years, only repudiated on the eve of AG nomination.
-- We know the CIA asked him for his advice, and how to legally justify interrogation methods.
-- AG has been unresponsive to questions regarding this transaction.

(Ted is loud and clear, picking up steam)

[berner59]

23. He's so right - it's about TORTURE!!!

If you vote for him - you're voting for approval of torture and if ONE soldier ends up being tortured, it will be on their conscience...

Ted giving them hell - go for it!! He looks dapper in brown BTW...

[blondeatlast]

32. This is the point to drive home to Bush/Gonzalez supporters--

If they torture even one of ours, we can in NO WAY condemn it. They can't understand the finer points, but they can surely understand that simple one (I hope).

This is not my country anymore--again, where's the sadly shaking head icon?

[G_j]

24. where to start

he came out swinging

at one point asked what the Bush admin is trying to hide

quite passionate, only a transcript could do this justice

[Just Me]

29. AWWW, man, he is laying it ALL out there!!!

Actions to cover up and immunize people from war crimes.

Violations of US and international laws.

Gonzales prepared memo opening the door to TORTURE, TORTURE, TORTURE!

Gonzales being obstructionist to providing information.

KENNEDY IS SLAMMING GONZALES AND THE ADMINISTRATION!!!!

:wow:

[genius]

25. I love Teddy. Isn't he great.

[EFerrari]

26. Ted is saying, how did these abuses migrate to Afghanistan,

Iraq, "as if no human hand" were involved.

Nailing Gonzales on his evasivness. On his arrogance in refusing to supply Congress with the docs they asked for.

[Duncan Grant]

27. Kennedy: Gonzales refuses to tell us why he wrote it (torture memo)

to legally justify torture.

Gonzales can't remember which torture techniques were discussed.

Gonzales doesn't know how the memo got over to the military/pentagon.

With Gonzales complicity: Torture became a pervasive practice! (abuse, sexual abuse, too offensive to be mentioned on the floor of the Senate).

8 times he has not searched for documents requested by the Senate.


(Teddy's on fire!)

[JoMama49]

30. Teddy spelling it all out -- and kickin' butt!

[berner59]

34. I keep getting the feeling...

that the Dems are at the beginning of making the case for criminal charges for this administration... Come on...let's get the party going!!

[Just Me]

37. His fury over human rights abuses and violations is HOT!!!

His outrage at the deception and obfuscation is clear.

He appears to be drawing a line.

[EFerrari]

31. Ted is getting to the meat of this thing: accountability to Congress

He's reading from the record -- how AG refused to disclose to the oversight committee over and over.

Imo, this is the crux. The issue IS torture and AG believes the whole administration is not answerable to Congress.

[selmo7]

35. Yuup

Teddy keeps pointing out

Gonzales' repeated ducking: "I am not at liberty to disclose."

and that he won't do searches for the documentation that answers the Judiciary's questions. What Arrogance!

and that he is REQUIRED to answer the questions or else cite Executive Privilege.

[Duncan Grant]

33. Kennedy: Talk about values in this country! This is torture! n/t

[EFerrari]

36. Now he's bringing up Chertoff's involvement, too! Yes!

Chertoff is just as dirty as Gonzalez.

Someday this will be called the Criminal Cabinet.

[cyberpj]

38. You GO Ted! I'm glad he doesn't care, but you know they'll

have a great time making him caricature again of the old time liberal Dem.

But Goddamn it! There IS a right and wrong and people need to admit that -- party be damned!

[EFerrari]

44. Yeah, he's LIBERAL because he's against torture. We have

to be prepared to support him.

Anyone up for calling his office?

202 224 -4543

[cyberpj]

52. Will do - Promise! I've also found that actually WRITING to them

is much much much better received than an email.

I fax if I'm in a hurry.

But calling, writing and faxing all get more attention than emails.

For Information Only -----

PJ

[EFerrari]

61. Thanks! n/t

[Duncan Grant]

39. FYI: Here's the Bybee Memo

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/nation/documents/dojinterrogationmemo20020801.pdf

[NewYorkerfromMass]

47. So basically, 9/11 made it OK to do whatever the fuck you want

so long as it is al Qaeda you were dealing with.
Got it.
The terrorists have won. They have destroyed this country in more ways than one.

[woodsprite]

66. The terrorists didn't destroy this country. The neocons did! n/t

[EFerrari]

41. Teddy is quoting from that horrible memo. It's sickening.

Especially the part where AG gives Bush the out for justifying torture.

What a sad day for our Republic. We're so lucky to have this forceful, well spoken ANGRY man. I hope someone beams THIS around the world.

[genius]

42. So according to the memo, Bush can torture us at will without liability

Do you want to give him the power to torture your kids at will?

[Duncan Grant]

45. Be afraid: that's EXACTLY what it means.

:grr:

[EFerrari]

49. That's right. We know whatever they do overseas eventually comes home.

[EFerrari]

51. TK's Office: 202 224 4543

[Duncan Grant]

43. Kennedy: No exceptional circumstances may be invoked as a justification

for torture. (per congressional directive...)

[ElsewheresDaughter]

55. trhank you thank you thank you my DU friends for painting vission for me

:loveya: :loveya: :loveya:

[Duncan Grant]

90. How about those internet(s)!

:)

[dandrhesse]

46. It really doesnt matter whether or not he okay the torture the world

thinks he did and that is what is important. I mean if he was innocent and had answered all the questions in the hearing with any measure of honesty I might cut him some slack. But he didn't and we, as well as the rest of the world have no reason think of him at the attorney that gave bush the go ahead.

[Ian David]

50. Teddy is getting pretty graphic. Good. We need that.

Let people hear exactly what's going on.

[EFerrari]

54. Right. You can't have some warrior ethos without harm to bodies.

[beam me up scottie]

48. This is so fucking great!

The actions of SH and the republican guard would have been allowed to continue their practices....

[Duncan Grant]

53. Kennedy: The President can not override Congressional prohibitions

against torture.

[cyberpj]

56. It's all so true and yet he will be confirmed. How can ANYONE

vote to confirm after hearing all this again?

[EFerrari]

60. We're are in crisis in this country. And you were there.

I've never seen anything like this. Senators debating TORTURE on television.

We're going to need to eat our Wheaties, folks.

[Duncan Grant]

57. Kennedy: 3/19/2004 Goldsmith memo

(implicates Gonzales involvement with Bybee memo)

Sorry - I missed the real point he was making here.

[EFerrari]

58. He said "war crimes". This will drive the other side nuts. (More nuts)

[Duncan Grant]

59. Kennedy: Mr. Gonzales hasn't cleared the air, only clouded it further. nt

[Duncan Grant]

62. Kennedy: Bush exempted CIA to treat prisoners humanely. n/t

[Duncan Grant]

63. Kennedy: This vote should adhere to our fundamental values. n/t

[EFerrari]

64. "A no vote is the right vote for maintaining America's standing

in the world."

[Ivote]

65. Bill Nelson Up Now

n/t
:kick:

[cyberpj]

67. ???? Why is he taking on Social Security during this hearing? eom.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

72. i'm getting winded reading all the posts ..thanks again

[EFerrari]

80. It's been intense, for sure. Thanks for helping focus the thread. nt

[Duncan Grant]

68. Kennedy will vote no.

Wow, that was great! Kennedy built a great argument; all supporting evidence was pertinent to the debate (nothing about how Gonzales will make 'Spanish' people proud :eyes: ). When the transcript is available, the point by point case against Gonzales can be found in Sen. Kennedy's remarks. :kick:

[EFerrari]

69. WHY is Nelson talking Social Security? n/t

[beam me up scottie]

74. does he know what room he's in?

nt

[Blue_In_AK]

75. I was wondering that, too

Gotta get back to work now. Kennedy was great.

[saracat]

98. He can't talk about Gonzales without cutting into his time. Smething is up

Frist asked for time from Nelson then disappeared. I think some Repukes are defecting and he has to twist arms! Nelson is smart, he is using the waiting time for Frist to his advantage!

[beam me up scottie]

70. So if the president is above the law, we're obviously

no longer a democracy, but what are we? (seriously)

[EFerrari]

73. An occupied territory?

[cyberpj]

84. Sounds like a DICK tatorship to me..... eom.

[beam me up scottie]

93. thanks, needed a response to "what's the big deal, he's

the commander in chief, he can do what he wants"
Probably a fruitless battle but still...

[EFerrari]

99. Isn't one of our core values, "no one is above the law"?

This is the one the Shrubbery has consistently violated.

But, if you ask anyone, anyone, who is above the law, I bet you'll get agreement that NO ONE is.

[EFerrari]

71. Wait, lol, is this a filibuster? (what do I know :)

[MuseRider]

76. What is this?

I thought he only had 15 minutes and they decided not to filibuster. I hate to look really dumb but I do not get it either.

[cyberpj]

77. I heard they decided NO on fillibuster but that would be great! eom.

[Blue_In_AK]

78. It almost sounds like it, doesn't it? n/t

[Ivote]

82. I Think So

:kick:

[beam me up scottie]

83. is it? I've never witnessed one. Awesome!

nt

[EFerrari]

89. Neither have I. Then again, I never paid as much attention as I

have since 9/11. Not because of Bin Laden but because I didn't trust MendacityCentral with me, my family, my community or my country.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

87. hey i heard CNN say "Kennedy & Durbin are calling for a filibuster"...damn

[cyberpj]

88. Any other West Wing fans here? Remember that episode?

The fillibuster?

One of the best !

[Freddie Stubbs]

79. Breaking AP: Democrats say they won't block Gonzales nomination

By JESSE J. HOLLAND
Associated Press Writer

WASHINGTON (AP) - Democrats won't try to filibuster Alberto Gonzales' nomination to be attorney general but will hold extensive debates in the Senate over his role in developing the Bush administration's policies on treating foreign detainees, the Senate's top Democrat said Tuesday.

"There will be an up-or-down vote," Senate Democratic Leader Harry Reid of Nevada told reporters after the Democrats huddled together for their weekly planning session.

A filibuster, a parliamentary tactic for delaying Senate action, would require Republicans, who hold a 55-44 majority in the Senate, to win over at least five Democrats - or four Democrats plus Vermont Sen. James Jeffords, an independent - to put Gonzales in office.

Reid predicted that at least 25 or 30 Democrats would vote against Gonzales but said "there was a decision made not to filibuster."

more: http://www.kstp.com/article/stories/S5983.html?cat=87

[EFerrari]

86. Thank you, Authorized Propaganda. Hmmmmmmmmm. n/t

[Freddie Stubbs]

95. Harry Reid is authorizing propaganda?

:shrug:

[ewagner]

103. Reid says no filabuster, but....

Maybe Kennedy and Durbin are leading a rebellion?

That would be great!!!!!

Kennedy, Durbin and Boxer leading a rebellion on the Senate floor...
I'd tape it.

[sabra]

81. Is this what they mean about debating and debating and debating...

even if it's not related to the subject?

[Duncan Grant]

85. Sen. Nelson is making a "pre-emptive" attack on the SOTU address,

re: Social Security reform. Nothing on Gonzales yet but we'll see what happens...

[cyberpj]

91. And I'm ok with that too - but it took a little steam from Ted's testimony

Don't you think?

[E_Smith]

94. I agree... kind of weird. n/t

[Duncan Grant]

106. self-delete n/t

[EFerrari]

92. Smart. Gosh, I'm a Shakespearean, and this tops Lear. n/t

[rednitej]

97. Oh- it's 5:00- time to go home!

Heaven forbid that they'd stay past normal business hours. :eyes:

On edit: Nelson's speech was a great time-filler. Wonder what's going on off the floor!

[REACTIVATED IN CT]

96. Nelson's speech...

confused the heck out of me. I thought the Gonzales hearing was over

[cyberpj]

100. Specter and Durbin setting up times and rules for tommorrow - eom.

[cyberpj]

101. OMG! Now he says Ted's testimony was wrong about the memo -

He's specifically picking apart Kennedy's testimony.

[blondeatlast]

"Matters beyond his control?" PUHLEEZE. nt

[EFerrari]

Won't work. If you can't say it in 25 words, people's eyes glaze over.

They're on the losing side of this one.

If AG is confirmed, it will only be because the Dems have even bigger battles to fight. Hard to tell from the outside.

This is a blow against the empire. Be proud!

[EFerrari]

104. Their majority doesn't matter. They'll be on camera and facts

will go into the record.

Listen to how defensive they've been. Rove is probably having a fit.

[blondeatlast]

107. Ya think? I hope to HELL KKKarl is having a fit. nt

[EFerrari]

110. Oh, you know he is. No Kontrol. Hey, I'm ordering a Freedom Pizza :)

[blondeatlast]

121. ROFLMAO! nt

[cyberpj]

105. Castigation of Gonzoles for matters totally beyond his control -

(the old, he was just the go-between defense)

[cyberpj]

108. boy he really likes that word castigates eom.

[blondeatlast]

112. Kinda like he was "castigated" by his own party???

Double-entendre wholly intended, btw.

[Oreo]

102. Dayton's speech should be fun

I'm proud he's my senator.

If Condi thought he was hard on her... Gonzalez will think the questioning is torturous

[EFerrari]

113. Call while he's talking. I called Feinstein, even though I usually

want to boot her out of office. When they stand up and do right, we need to let them know, not always just complain when they disappoint.

I held my nose and called our DINO. Hope you feel better about calling your Sen.

[Democrat 4 Ever]

119. Is it just me but has the repug Senators that are defending

Gonzalez perfected the argument of "it's not my fault" or "I didn't know" or "I don't remember" or "Somebody else must have done it" to a high art? They are willing to let every nominee - no matter how inept, untruthful, crazy, or just plain stupid slide on every issue just because the nominee is "their guy." They have even taken the art of reading from a nominee own words and deliberating twisting them completely out of context. Have the Senators themselves dumbed down their own expectations or Bush's nominees that they think everyone else has too?

I have never heard such nonsense from this level of leadership. These people are suppose to be the leaders of our country! I expect a bunch of eight-year-olds to use the excuse, "I dunna know," "it's not my fault," or "he did it first." These Senators are just unbelievable in what they are using to support Gonzalez. Geesh.

I was always taught that a real leader knows what their subordinates are up to, that the buck stops with me and there is no excuse good enough to allow incompetence or illegal behavior either by me or in my name. It is the leaders job to know and take responsibility for people working under them. Guess if you are the party of King Chimp it just goes without saying that the bar has been set so low for everyone from the president on down that a brain-dead salamander would qualify for a position in this administration as long as it has an American flag pin attached to its body somewhere.

[EFerrari]

123. Not just you at all. These guys know it's about shoring up power.

And never in my lifetime has powermongering been so nakedly obvious.

I miss JFK. I was only a tot, but the whole vibe was different, cleaner, more positive. I mean, even I remember it and I was just 4 when Kennedy was president.

This is tough times. And there is a power grab going on here that is not in our national interest -- in drag as being in our national interest.

Gonna be a long week, with Dim Son's SOTU speech tomorrow.

Let's take it as an op to out their criminal agenda.

[Duncan Grant]

109. Sen. Specter (R) on deck.

We're off to a stumbling retort about Sen. Kennedy's remarks.

The events cited by Sen. Kennedy were beyond Gonzales' control (swear to God, that's just what Spector said). :kick:

edit: subject line

[EFerrari]

117. Remember when Specter was right of right? (Sigh)

Just looking at him, you can see how painful this chore is for him.

I wonder how many GOP Senators feel completely out of control now that the Neos have taken over?

[Duncan Grant]

118. The "Good" Old Days. Imagine that.

Specter almost lost his seat thanks to the evil bastards that he is NOW defending. What a maroon! Grow a pair, Arlen.

[EFerrari]

120. And for this crowd, a spare pair. lol

[cyberpj]

111. Gotta go for now but I'll probably see you here tomorrow - also,

I hope CSPAN repeats some of this so I can Tivo Ted's testimony and see it again.

Later taters,
PJ

[EFerrari]

114. See ya. n/t

[ElsewheresDaughter]

115. ciao PJ and thanks friends for the play by play s

:yourock:

[Duncan Grant]

116. Thx!

:hi:

[blondeatlast]

122. Specter sounds rather uncomfortable to me; anyone else?

He sounds to me like a decent man selling his first used car at a drive here/pay here lot.

He knows he's bullshitting, and he's uncomfortable. He didn't sound like this even in the Clarence Thomas hearings.

[EFerrari]

124. Yep. He knows what he's signing off on. Ugly. n/t

[noamnety]

125. He sounds pathetic

Whining about how unfair it is for senators to ask Gonzales his opinions.

[EFerrari]

128. I don't take this against the man. He has been under attack by

the Neos. Sure wouldn't want his gig.

[Duncan Grant]

127. He's playing both sides against the middle.

Gonzales hasn't provided the most "artful" answers but the jockeying for political position in this town keeps escalating, blah, blah, blah. :boring:

[EFerrari]

129. Has to, don't you think? At his time of life, at this point in his career

(Laughing at me for sticking up for him. This is a measure of how much farther to the right the Neos have set the level. Geeze, I'm trying to empathize with Specter!

Someone get me to the deprogramming site!)

[EFerrari]

126. Question for now or later: The Dems will have to contest

some of these appointments because they're obviously innapropriate. (Rice, Gonzales, Chertoff).

This raises the problem of being obstructionist while doing the right thing (because the Bu$h nominations are criminal. I won't soften that.)

What will they do? And how can we help?

[blondeatlast]

131. I don't understand the fear of the word "obstructionist."

Maybe I don't quite understand the history. It sounds Rovian to me is all.

Can someone help me out with this?

[EFerrari]

133. obstructionist makes you sound selfish instead of moral

If you obstruct my action, you're being selfish.

If you disagree or object to my action, you're acting in good conscience.

It's spin, pure and simple.

[Duncan Grant]

130. Specter winds down (and the chamber erupts into applause).

:evilgrin: kidding...

[Duncan Grant]

132. Starting a new thread...(#4)