Howard Dean redux: This time, to lead the party

[TheWebHead]

By Dick Polman
Inquirer Political Analyst

Once again, we have Dean reaching for the brass ring, this time the job of national Democratic chairman; once again, various big shots and foot soldiers are horrified at the idea that the antiwar New Englander, more pit bull than politician, might become the face of their party.

One year ago, the stop-Dean forces managed to settle on John Kerry, for better or worse, in the presidential race, but this time they are flirting with failure. The 447 voting members of the Democratic National Committee must pick a chairman Feb. 12, and none of Dean's five rivals can match his moxie and celebrity, much less his ability to connect with the grassroots activists who relish blunt talk and liberal red-meat rhetoric.

....

This was all happening at a Democratic forum where Dean and his rivals were trumpeting their credentials to DNC members - and where it was clear that anti-Dean sentiment was still raging, as evidenced by this letter, from Tennessee State Sen. Tommy Kilby, that was making the rounds: "It is my greatest fear that should be elected, many Democratic elected officials will abandon the party. We, as a party, must get back to mainstream America. We must open our party and allow people who are pro-life, pro-gun and pro-traditional marriage to have an active role... . Howard Dean as chairman will be disastrous."

That fear is shared by prominent liberals who don't want to diss Dean by name, because they'd have to work with him. Privately, they say he'd "brand the party" as left-wing, because of his antiwar stance and gift for left-leaning quips ("If Bill Clinton can be the first black president, I can be the first gay president!") - all of which obscures that he's a fiscal conservative who balanced 11 budgets as governor of Vermont.

more...
http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/news/special_packages/election2004/10783200.htm?1c

[marcologico]

1. . . . and once again, Dean self-destructs and then blames the press. n/t

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[saracat]

4. Stupid article. The state chairs have just voted for Dean.

I was a Kerry supporter but Dean is the only candidate who can unite both sides of the Democratic Party. Anymore years of Terry McAwful Repuke light and we will self destruct. We must get back to being Democrats. The era of the Clinton centrism is over. This is NOT the 1990's and we no longer have a Clinton.We must win on our ideals and we are NOT pro gun and anti choice! And Dean isn't self destructing this time.He is winning.

[Guaranteed]

6. Not to quibble, but did you know

that Dean actually has a pro-gun streak? At least, so I hear.

I agree with him, too. :shrug:

[saracat]

7. I did , but that isn't really my point, though I did make that comment!

He might have a pro gun streak but I doubt he is one of the wacko gun nuts that blows everything away with an assault weapon and doesn't think any registration is required. At least I never got that impression. Kerry was a hunter too. My husband was a national rifle champ. And I don't find either of them gun nuts either.JMHO!:)

[RogueTrooper]

15. Triple A rating from the NRA

quite common for politicians in Vermont to have that sort of rating, by all accounts.

[Sirveri]

8. Uhhh... I'm a dem and pro-gun...

There is a fairly large number of people in the party that are pro-gun. There are also a huge number of people who would join the party if it became anti choice, but well, that would kinda piss me off. I actually don't really 'like' abortion, but I still think it should be legal.

[saracat]

9. But I'll bet you aren't a gun nut who would blow everything away and isn't

interested in gun safety! And we would lose more than we gain if we went anti choice. I would be gone for one!:)

[Sirveri]

10. yeah, that's actually true. I don't actually own any guns.

I don't even hunt, I live in freakin' California. It's not like I need one right now aside from taking it to a range to pop off some rounds.

[Peak_Oil]

26. Gun safety is for BABIES! n/t

.

[KittyWampus]

21. Dean Exemplifies Clinton Centrism & Will NOT Pull The Party To Left

as Chair.

This is NOT going to happen. That is not what he'll be there for.

Will Dean as Chair ORGANIZE, get local parties empowered? Yes.
Will he begin building Think Tanks and Strategy Networks? Yes.

And this is exactly the kind of post that makes me wonder if Dean supporters even know who Dean is.

DEAN WAS AND IS A CLINTON CENTRIST.

[MaineDem]

22. The Chair is NOT a policy maker

You're absolutely correct. In fact, Howard Dean said that at a meeting in NY on Saturday.

But he will strengthen the state parties and the grassroots. He's not my first choice for Chair but if the ASDC backs him that's good enough for me.

[RogueTrooper]

36. But that is what it will become.

:evilgrin:

[MaineDem]

46. Don't bet on that (nt)

[RogueTrooper]

35. We know who Dean is and what he stands for cryingshame

please don't mistake our fanatism for stupidity.

The "left" came to Dean during the Presidential campaign; he did not go to them. Dean is a centerist; but not the type who feels the need to abuse harmless lefties for self gratification and career advancement.

[TeacherCreature]

39. No true

Dean supports Gay Unions and was against the war in Iraq. Clinton is against gay unions and for the War in Iraq.

[Andromeda]

12. Yeah, I guess we should act more like Republicans

if we ever want to win an election -- er, I guess we've been doing that haven't we?

[marcologico]

13. Acting more like Republicans is exactly what Dean says he plans to do.

He "admires" their "organization" and "discipline," remember?

[last1standing]

14. Why the distortion and pulling words out of context?

He said that he disagreed with all of their policies buy admired the organization and discipline that allowed them to win elections.

Are you against winning elections, organization and discipline, opposing repub policies, Howard Dean for being alive, or just Democrats in general?

[marcologico]

16. I'm against trying to win elections using Republican "discipline,"

and Dean in particular. I've seen enough of the Dean machine to figure out what kind of gas it runs on and let's just say it's as toxic as his environmental record in Vermont.

The thing is, it didn't work for Dean in '04, so why does he think it will work in '08? It's nothing but hate and lies and that's just not how Dems vote. My money stays on Kerry.

[LizW]

18. "My money stays on Kerry."

LOL! Does it ever! He's still got millions of your money stashed for his next run! :evilgrin:

[sendero]

19. You can keep your money..

... Kerry won't win dogcatcher as he has well proven.

He had 1,000 chances to land a knock-out punch on the Dim Son and he blew every damn one of them.

I wanted a Dean or a Clark in 2004, but I got behind Kerry at the behest of folks like you. I sent him money, I talked him up at every opportunity.

I sat here and listened to the deludiniods (probably a lot like you) talk about how he was working "behing the scenes" on Ohio. I knew it was bullshit but I coulnd't prove it. Now I'm certain of it. He's doing nothing.

He failed, and I'm not remotely interested in fucking up again. It is time to turn the page. It is time to give the Repugs a taste of their own bitter medicine. Kerry is not the right man for that job. And he never will be.

[marcologico]

23. Look, if Dean gets it and keeps any promises (BIG if) we'll both win. n/t

[sendero]

25. Yeah, sure....

... I don't expect miracles from Dean but I don't notice a history of failing to follow through in his past.

Dean is not perfect and I don't think he is - I'm just tired of waiting for the rest of the elected party to figure out that they cannot win elections with the same tired, handwringing, equivocal, nuanced beyond the average American's comprehension message.

And I'm tired of puss-asses who are afraid to call a lie a lie, afraid to call a fuck-up and fuck-up and afraid to cast the motivations of the Rep party in the negative light it deserves.

[marcologico]

27. I mean if he doesn't try to hotdog the nomination in '08. I know, he

swore he wouldn't run, and how many freakin' politicians have made THAT promise?

[sendero]

32. Plenty...

... if he breaks his promise, I'll be the first to criticize him.

[Larkspur]

38. If Dean does a great job as DNC and the Dem rank-and-file demand Dean as

their 2008 Prez nominee, why would that be a problem? :shrug:

[saracat]

49. Don't be pulled into this divisiveness. I support Dean for Chair and I sup

They are both fine men and we should be proud of them both. They are almost ideologicly identical, except for the war vote. And Dean didn't have a vote a the war, so we will never know about that.Kerry's voting record was and continues to be exemplary. And like it or not, he has assumed the mantle of this party with his trips abroad and to Iraq.He is the go to man for most world leaders and some ,like the President of Jorden have said so publicaly, expressing his wish Kerry was president. Dean will make a superb DNC Chair. He has just what it takes to steer this ship and will unite many factions.
The repukes would have stolen any election and Jesus Christ would not have won against them. The jury is still out as to wether Kerry even lost.The lockdown of evidence makes it difficult to prove. And Kerry DID knock down the little bastard in every debate. In spite of everything , I think Bush may yet be going down and wemay see it due to the investigative and prosecutorial efforts of John Kerry. There is a "worse than Watergate" coming. And I think it may be involved with Gonzales. Bush will be going down and sooner than we think!

[last1standing]

24. You have a problem with discipline?

Please tell me what is wrong with republican discipline? As for your snide insinuation that Dean had a bad record for environmentalism in Vermont, that has been disproved time and time again, as I'm sure you know.

That being said, how can you differentiate your remarks from those of the swift boat liars? You're using the same tactics as they did of making a vague statement that isn't true to smear a good record.

Keep your money on Kerry. Dean doesn't need your kind of "support".

[marcologico]

28. SBVT is exactly what I'm talking about. And I've been right before. n/t

[last1standing]

33. You're just evading my questions.

You have nothing to say other than "that bad man Dean is not good". You've come into this thread and slandered someone many of us respect without providing any information of what he's done wrong.

Did he refuse to shake you're hand at a campaign stop or something? As this seems personal on your part, I don't think many of us here can respect what you're saying.

I hope you are more informative and helpful on other subjects.

[RetroLounge]

44. "My money stays on Kerry."

Wow! Nothing else needs to be said.

:eyes:

RL

[RetroLounge]

45. What's your issue with Discipline?

You obviously have enough of it to go after Dean in every single thread that mentions his name.

Kinda like, oh, you know, that other party that Deabn "admires".

RL

[LondonReign2]

30. So being organized and disciplined is bad?

We continue to lose because we aren't nearly as organized as the Ruthugs when it comes to registering voters, targetting our messages, and getting our voters to the polls.

We continue to lose becuase we aen't disciplined when it comes to put forth a consistent, coherent messages and policies.

But I guess if Dean suggests these things he is a Republican in your mind???? :shrug:

[marcologico]

31. No, but that isn't what Dean said. Reread the quotation. n/t

[TLM]

34. That's exactly what he said...

Or do discipline and organization have different definitions where you come from?

Care to post the whole quote in context, and define the terms used to support you claim? I doubt it. Since you obviously rely on partial out of context quotes to prop up your weak assertions and insinuations.

[last1standing]

37. As marcologico doesn't seem to answer questions well, I'll do it.

http://www.catholicsfordemocracy.org/node/view/5308
<quote>
Dean: Because I think we're in the best financial shape we've been in, probably ever, certainly in my lifetime. We don't have a debt coming out of the presidential race, which is extraordinary. We now need to do, frankly, some of the things Republicans are doing. There's nothing I admire about the Republicans. They can't manage money. They've gotten us into a war without telling us the truth about why we're there. But I do admire their discipline and their organization. And we need to build a grassroots organization in the states the way the Republicans have.
<endquote>

Basically, he is saying he doesn't admire repub values or actions but does admire their discipline and organization. marcologico apparently doesn't like this kind of thing in someone who leads our party. I say we've seen how successful his way has been, lets try our way for a change.

Edited to add link.

[RetroLounge]

47. Lets see that quote once again

"Dean: Because I think we're in the best financial shape we've been in, probably ever, certainly in my lifetime. We don't have a debt coming out of the presidential race, which is extraordinary. We now need to do, frankly, some of the things Republicans are doing. There's nothing I admire about the Republicans. They can't manage money. They've gotten us into a war without telling us the truth about why we're there. But I do admire their discipline and their organization. And we need to build a grassroots organization in the states the way the Republicans have."

Here you go...

Isn't it funny when you put Dean's words IN CONTEXT that they make a whole lot of sense?

RL

[last1standing]

52. Isn't it funny how certain people seem to disappear when the truth

comes out? I think some people really think Dean supporters are such idiots that we can't find a simple quote.

Really what they're trying to do is plant the seeds of lies in people's heads just like the swift boat liars. That mentality has seeped into some quarters of the democratic party it seems.

[Name removed]

42. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[RetroLounge]

43. and once again you post crap

:eyes:

RL

[WI_DEM]

50. has he self-destructed?

and did he blame the press for '04 or did he immediately get behind Kerry and work hard for him?

[Guaranteed]

3. LOL "...many Democratic elected officials will abandon the party..."

I guess cuz the gravy train's jumped the tracks?

Begone with you, leeches!

[saracat]

5. And we don't need those that do! Bye ,bye Feinstien and Zell Miller

and all their clones.

[Andromeda]

11. Enquirer Politial Analyst???

Gee, I'm so impressed -- NOT. If Dean is selected it'll be the best move the Democratic party has made in years.

I saw the DNC panel of Chair hopefuls on CSpan and Dean was by far the most impressive candidate.

We should be so lucky to have Howard Dean as Chairman of the DNC.

[CWebster]

17. The usual loaded rhetoric. nt

[sendero]

20. Notice the bullshit spin..

... that basically says "a majority of the party wants Dean but they are making a big mistake".

No, our big mistake was letting a nothing-state like Iowa torpedoe him in 2004. That was our big mistake.

[Debi]

51. It wasn't Iowa that torpedoed him...and we're not a nothing state.

Look at the groups that supported the 'whisper campaign' - that funded the attack ads.

Look at Edwards 'deal' with the Kucinich supporters.

Look at JOE TRIPPI bailing on the campaign and not coming to Iowa the way Whooley did for Kerry.

Look at a whole bunch of things, but don't say this state did Dean wrong.

(and look at the map - not a lot of blue states to choose from - what state would have done the doctor better?)

[mattclearing]

29. DLC sucks...Dean is great...Too liberal...A Centrist...balanced..blah.n/t

:nopity:

[JNelson6563]

40. heh heh

[melissinha]

41. These critics aren't focusing on the issues

We need to UNITE not divide and Dean is very good at inspiration and marketing which they suck at...so SUCK IT UP and get to WORK!

[m_welby]

48. this will be a good thing.

contrary to what many seem to think, the republicans win because they stand up stand by what they say they believe (along with not having to answer to the press).

gingrich was a pain in the butt jerk, but the republicans took back congress by standing by what they believed and painting dems as being insincere and out of touch.

'flip-flopper' isn't just about kerry, its about all dems. changing beliefs with the wind.

many 'mericuns don't really care what someone believes, only that they really believe it and aren't just saying it for votes.

Dean gets that. dems need to stand up and say this is what we believe and if you don't like it too bad. that is how the repubs got control. How many people do you know who vote repub say "i don't like either one, but I can't trust the democrat, at least the republican is willing to stand up and voice an unpopular position instead of agreeing with me.


going to the center is just more of the same, we will lose. we will always lose if we keep that path.

policies dont matter (to the middle), only the impression of sincerity.