Is It True That Dean Doesn't Believe the draft Clark Movement Existed?

[ClarkUSA]

*************************No Flame Wars, Please ************************

I'd like to provide an opportunity to dispel myths about the draft Clark movement of which I am a Founder (aka. original draft-signer and letter-writer to General Clark).

Is there truly still mistrust or disbelief that Clark was simply drafted by over 70,000 ordinary Americans like me? If Dean supporters can get Gore and Bradley to endorse Dean by writing letters by the thousands, why is it hard to believe for Dean that Clark supporters drafted Clark by writing many many tens of thousands of personal heartfelt letters? Clark also could have thrown his hat into the ring without laboriously waiting for approximately 73,000 people to sign a draft petition over the course of a year. Moreover, it was Gert Clark's relunctance that prevented General Clark from announcing his candidacy earlier, according to Wes Clark, Jr., who was the one who finally convinced his mother of the merits of letting his Dad run for President.

Excerpts from a message by a DraftClark2004.com member:

"...I recently spoke to a good friend that worked with me on the campaign who said he met Dean two weeks ago in DC. Dean told him that he didn't believe the draft Clark movement existed and that the general was behind the whole thing! As a member of DraftClark2004.com who worked out of our office in Little Rock, I can tell you that Clark had nothing to do with the draft movement! Also, folks in the Dem party here who know the Clarks say that Dean actually asked Clark to
be his VP running mate to keep him out of the race. As we all know, Clark turned him down... As we all learned from this last election, we need to reinvent this party. We need strong leadership on national security.... Our party is challenged to make a clear and sensible plan for foreign policy and national security. In this post-9/11 world, our party must regain the reins of security leadership. Clark gives our party credibility and help all Democrats frame the national security debate..."

(sensitive personal comments or information has been removed)

[quiet.american]

1. Maybe I'm watching too much Law & Order --

-- and not to demean the sender of the message, but this is hearsay.

[ClarkUSA]

7. I asked if anyone knew if it was true...and I've seen alot of hearsay

being printed here as fact. But what if what the author is saying did happen? What if one-tenth of it is true? I'm surprised that Dean or anyone else would express any doubt whatsoever. But if Dean is going to be the next DNC Chair, shouldn't he recognize the genuine birth of the successful draft Clark effort?
Arguably, Clarkistas are a dedicated group of grassroots supporters and any future DNC Chair has to respect how we came about. Anything less is troubling.

This is more a discussion about whether there is still any doubt as to the authenticity of the draft Clark movement more than anything else.

Thanks for your comment. It is well-taken, but could it be true?

[quiet.american]

28. :) -- As the saying goes,

"It might very well be true, but I couldn't possibly comment."

[tishaLA]

2. This won't be terribly productive

I can tell already.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

3. So this person said that to this person and she said this...dude HEARSAY

nt

[David Zephyr]

4. Wes Clark & Howard Dean Have a Great Friendship

and both would be perplexed at the central question in your thread.

[ClarkUSA]

13. Really? That's good to hear -- I hope all the candidates get along by now

I apologize for the alarm that this thread is causing but I just wanted to clear the air in case there was any doubt even here at DU.

[David Zephyr]

22. Good enough for me.

:)

[ClarkUSA]

30. Thanks, DavidZephyr

You are a DU statesman and I admire you greatly for the times you intervened during some recent ugly partisan exchanges.

[DaveinMD]

5. this thread

is a bad idea. Let's stop fighting with each other and start fighting Republicans.

[Bleys]

6. Good call

Also the Red Sox should be stopped :evilgrin:

At least Schilling :D

-josh
mockriot - news discussion

[DaveinMD]

10. and stopped

they will be :-)

[autorank]

11. Don't worry about the Sox, they're done for another 100 years.

Now instead of the annual tedious moanings of Sox fans about how they've never won, we'll hear annual tedious moanings of Sox fans about how they'll never win another one. Oh, Lard, please spare us these whiners. Please Lard, I'll say my prayers every night if you just grant me this one wish.

[ClarkUSA]

12. I hope that Dean believes in the authenticity of draft Clark, that's all

Not the first time hearsay has troubled candidate's supporters, here, either, but
at least I am not treating this as the gospel truth.

I just want to ask whether there is any doubt here at DU about this or whether anyone knows whether Dean truly feels this way.

Schilling sucks.

[ClarkUSA]

14. I am not fighting at all and I am sorry if this subject is causing worry

I just thought if anyone knew about this or personally felt this way. Obviously, no one seems to know.

I agree that the infighting is unproductive and we should focus on the GOP but this thread was not meant to be ugly.

[DaveinMD]

17. I'm not saying

it was meant to be bad. Its just things like this have a way of mushrooming.

[ClarkUSA]

20. Boy, do I understand what you are saying...sheesh!

It's a blessing that everyone has been kind so far. I wish I could ask Dean himself.

[LittleClarkie]

23. (Hal)I'm sorry, Dave, I can't do that (/Hal)

Couldn't resist.

I agree. If we fight endless primary battles, refighting 2004 and prefighting 2008, we're not going to get very far against the Bushies.

I couldn't believe, for instance that someone refused to sign Kerry's petition because he wasn't supporting Kerry in 08. Oh man, this isn't about 08, this is about supporting positive action NOW.

[WI_DEM]

8. That is hear-say evidence, IMO.

Howard Dean has not one time to my knowledge knocked the Draft Clark movement. His only comments regarding Clark, to my knowledge, have been positive. Heck, he even wanted him to run with him and I think that says something about his feeling for the man. There are people in both the Dean and Clark movements who want to cause friction. This writer says a friend of his told him this is what Dean said. So you are printing what someone posted on a website that he heard from somebody else. I know you are not one of the people who want to create friction between the two camps, but I find this highly suspicious. Dean is running for DNC Chair he doesn't want or need to alienate other Democrats and I'm suspicious he would tell any Clark supporter he doubted there was ever a movement for the General, when clearly there was one.

So that is my feeling about this.

[ClarkUSA]

15. Sorry but it hit me hard and I thought I'd ask for advice here

In case anyone knew. Thanks for the levelheaded comments. I just hate the idea that anyone in Dean's position would doubt that the draft Clark movement was
very real.

[WI_DEM]

18. well there is absolutely no evidence that he does

[ClarkUSA]

34. I understand but I am also asking if anyone else feels this way here

or if anyone knows whether Dean feels this way (of course, in hindsight, I doubt they would say here at DU).

I hope Dean doesn't feel this way. And to be honest, neither of us really know.

Maybe I'll ask a DFA official I know about how to ask Dean (he and I are buds from our joint efforts during the election).

[TacticalPeek]

9. It might be more productive to ask Dean about this, rather than us.

One, only he can provide the answer to you.

Two, inviting speculation and conjecture is probably contrary to almost everyone's interests.

;)

[ClarkUSA]

16. True. Just how does someone contact Dean?

I would think it's difficult.

[sendero]

19. You know...

.. I could really care less about whether he did or he didn't. What is the practical implication either way?

BFD.

[ClarkUSA]

24. Maybe to you, but not to me, but it's a good question anyway..

Answer:

The practical implication is respect for Wes Clark and his grassroots followers by the future DNC Chairman. Wes Clark has made it clear that he had nothing to do with the draft Clark movement and if Dean believes that Clark was actually behind it after all this time, then that says something to me about Dean's feelings about Clark's honesty.

Yes, it's hearsay, but I have seen plenty of hearsay printed in DU threads and quoted as gospel truth when it suited people.

I have learned from seeing this and I am NOT treating this as gospel truth, but just trying to see if there is anything to it.

[WI_DEM]

32. you know despite what everybody so far has been saying

on this thread you started, it's clear you aren't satisfied. So if you want to spread this it's up to you. Dean hasn't said anything publically and if this person who said he did had any scruples he would come forward himself and say so. So believe what you want. Countless people have tried to explain it is hearsay and if that is not good enough--then I guess this is nothing but flame bait afterall.

[LittleClarkie]

21. The first person I ever heard say Clark's name was Michael Moore

So unless Moore secretly works for the Clintons or something, I believe there was a draft Clark movement.

[ClarkUSA]

26. Thanks LittleClarkie

:hi:

[Cha]

25. I say it's pure speculation..

I'm not believing anything until there's proof.

[ClarkUSA]

29. I'd like an opportunity to ask Dean himself but I don't know how

This author is a known quantity in AR Dem politics, not a volunteer or aide and they are not given to gossip.

I am glad to see that there are no doubters here at DU so far. That'd really floor me.

[Donna Zen]

27. A fair question:

When I read this early, I wondered about the comments. I know the person who wrote the piece and she is not a gossip monger. I am glad to see David Z. chime in that Clark and Dean are friends and hope he is sure of that.

We've just lived with a DNC that played favorites and king maker; I don't want to go that route again.

[Rowdyboy]

31. As a strong Clark supporter in 2004 and (hopefully) 2008 I do not believe

this.

Certainly, its nothing more than heresay but, more importantly, its illogical. Dean and Clark are natural allies and, hopefully, their supporters can come to grips with that. There's plenty of room for both men in the Democratic party.

[Adelante]

33. I don't know what Dean thinks

From what we read on DU, with no rebuttal to speak of, it is commonly believed by the most vocal Dean supporters here that there was no Clark Draft and if there was it was a DLC plot.

I signed the petition and sent a letter in early summer of '04 or around then. I was not active until Wes announced, though, so I don't have more information other than what I've heard from Clarkies who had been active in the Draft period: The Draft was for real!

[WI_DEM]

35. It's a shame because I'm a Dean supporter and others on this

thread have said there was a Clark Movement. I'm now beginning to consider this post nothing more than flame bait to cause more of a rift between Clark and Dean supporters. That is a shame. This person can't quote Dean directly so what is quoted is heresay.

[ClarkUSA]

42. I thank you and other Dean supporters on this thread

and I can't make myself more clear that this thread was not meant to be flamebait.

You are right about the hearsay with regards to Dean. And no one else has treated it as gospel truth. But then again, it's good to discuss things that concern Clarkistas in a sincere way.

The last thing I want to do is create bad feelings and I am no flamebaiter, but I also want to be able to dispel myths if there are any even here at DU.

Apologies again for any upset. I knew I was taking a chance in posting thsi thread and hesitated for quite awhile because of my concerns for just what you said, but I thought it's better to bring this out to the open and discuss it between us than to bury it and worry.

If this thread gets ugly, I will be the first person to ask Admin to lock this thread.

[Adelante]

43. I wasn't thinking of this thread

But threads overall at DU.

I am sorry I offended you by speaking loosely. It was not intended. I always appreciate your thoughtful posts. :hi:

[melnjones]

54. If it's any condolence,

as a Clark supporter, I'm really glad to see the positive posts from Dean supporters on this thread and am pretty sure other clarkies feel the same. The authenticity of the draft movement is a pretty big thing for us, and to see Deanies saying they don't understand what we're worried about is really a strong and positive statement, so thanks to all of you who added your thoughts :hi:

[ClarkUSA]

36. WesDem, I have seen those same "most vocal" Dean supporters declare

the same :tinfoilhat: nonsense. The question is: does Dean surround himself with people like that who tell him this stuff? I hope not! Please!

[Cha]

39. From what I read on DU during the primaries

there was definetly a "Draft Clark" movement..ya'll are getting yourselves in a dither about NOTHING~

[ClarkUSA]

57. Probably. It's good to know though instead of worrying

[WI_DEM]

40. ok, you have now convinced me that this is no more than flame bait

You start a thread asking if it is true Dean feels this way--how the heck would we know? alot of us, including Dean supporters tell you it is hearsay, and consider it nonsence and that we believe that there is a Clark Movement and still you go through out this thread expressing doubts as if you know it must be true. Now you and Wes Dem, two Clark supporters, I have respected want to attack Dean supporters. I know this has really turned me off. Sorry.

[ClarkUSA]

58. This way of communicating is misleading... out of respect for your upset

I will end this thread. My doubts are real and not flamebait. I am not saying Dean feels this way, just that I really hope he does not. But I would ask that if you were in my place, you too would be tired of the myth perpetuation.

However, I do not want to create bad feelings with you or any of the good people on this thread, so I will try and end it.

[Sparkly]

38. Same here

I signed the petition and sent a letter. The draft movement was quite well-known, seems to me. And Clark had nothing to gain in waiting if he'd already decided to run.

I think Dean's smart, so it seems to me he'd have known about the draft and known how the late start hurt the General's campaign. But I doubt any of us have an inside scoop to be able to verify or dismiss this either way. :shrug:

[Donna Zen]

41. You don't have to go far

There is a comment about the draft having been a fiction at this moment in another thread.

[ClarkUSA]

48. Oh Joy! The irony of it all...

If this myth isn't sensibly discussed, then Clarkistas will be forced to deal with it again and again and it's tiring after a couple of years. Ugh.

How do we deal with :tinfoilhat:?

[DemDogs]

37. Can't believe you say no flame wars

These two camps are like armies facing each other from six feet away and firing as fast as they can. From the outside looking in, you all need to focus on something, anything else.

[ClarkUSA]

44. Please read this thread and see that the people here have been very kind

and very sensible. You are right and it wasn't easy for me to post this but I thought it would be good to discuss it if there was any truth to it that anybody knew about or if anyone here thinks this way (there are a few but I hope that is all there is).

We need to move beyond the myths about al the candidates that hobble true cooperation amongst us.

[Tom Rinaldo]

47. Honestly I think you have your sampling of feelings now

People have been honest about how it is they can have concerns, people have been honest about why they feel those concerns are not valid, people have even been honest about how some things probably wouldn't be said no matter how you asked the question. You put it out there, and I understand why, but I don't see anywhere else for it to go from here other than downhill. Maybe you should talk to your friend in DFA if you still have unresolved questions. This is starting to go in circles with nothing new to be said. I have read the angry comments of a few who dismiss the Draft Clark movement, but those comments aren't being made here. Out of respect for those who participated in this thread, I would let it drop.

[ClarkUSA]

49. Have I not said the same?

And have shown appreciation? But just as you sometimes bring topics up out of concern, so did I.

And how do I let it drop, Tom? Just refrain from answering people's comments?

[Tom Rinaldo]

52. LOL, yes stopping the forward momentum of a thread is hard

If you feel it has run it's course, probably simply saying, as the one who started it, that you think so would probably help. Kind of like the host of a party, Thank everyone for dropping by and wish them a safe ride home. Some people may still linger in the drive way but there is only so much you can do about that lol

I know you have shown appreciation, but you also keep repeating the reason why you started the thread while you do so, which can look like you are still looking for more comments. If you are that is fine. I was just expressing my personal opinion.

[ClarkUSA]

56. I was just trying to be polite to people on a separate/personal basis

Oops.

Okay, thanks for the advice. :hi:

[Freddie Stubbs]

45. This certainly reminds me of

the Japanese soldiers who were stranded on islands still thinking that WWII was going on, ready to fight, unaware that the war had ended.

[ClarkUSA]

51. That was helpful...but no one is fighting here, bless them!

I have gotten some great feedback and advice and that's about as far as it can go right now. But I understand that this is a tense topic.

[googly]

46. "I am general he is just a lieutenent" Clark would have been an

unmitigated disaster in 2004. Instead of losing by 3 million
votes, Clark would have lost by 8 million votes.

[ClarkUSA]

53. If you can't stick to the topic, you are breaking the Message Rules

No one else has posted flamebait up until now. And I refuse to answer you. I have been very respectful -- have you even bothered to read the comments in this thread?

[Guaranteed]

50. I'd be really surprised if that was true. nt

[ClarkUSA]

55. Thank you, Bull

for understanding my worry and concern as a Clark supporter. I appreciate your reply (thanks for being cool and not slamming me). I just wanted some good feedback and I have gotten alot of good sensible comments.

[BlueInRed]

59. This bothers me for so many reasons

I never had the impression Dean had any problem with Clark. In fact, I remember during the primaries that Dean had made the suggestion they'd make a good ticket (I don't remember Dean's exact words, just the gist, so please no flames if I didn't state it precisely enough). And as I recall, people were offended by that suggestion by Dean. Why would it even matter how Clark got in the race, as he clearly had more of a following than many of the other 9 candidates. He was a well qualified candidate with many good qualities and a welcome addition to the primaries.

This seems to me to be designed to divide Clark and Dean supporters further, in contrast to the very uniting thread that asked for everyone who liked them both to speak up. I really like them both and am turned off by the fighting. And I would gladly have either one in place of *.

What good thing does this thread accomplish? I don't think it helps the supporters of either Dean or Clark.

[ClarkUSA]

61. This thread was very sensible and rational

But your feelings are 100% understandable. I was just concerned and thought it'd be a good idea to speak up about my worries. Thanks for the super comments.

I am trying to let this thread drop now.

(I also liked the uniting thread by Sparkly.)

[ClarkUSA]

60. Thanks to all who were good and kind enough to answer me

I feel much better and I hope we can have dialogues like this more often on topics of sincere concern to some of us. DUers can be beautiful together when we make the effort.

:grouphug:

[lyonn]

62. So what

I think Dean had his enemies but I suspect that Clark wasn't one of them, opponents maybe. I can imagine why he would want him for VP, I sure did. Seems to be an intelligent, experienced in world affairs, personable person with a great wife.

[Capn Sunshine]

63. I never heard that from Howard Dean- he admired Clark

He liked the fact that grassroots were behind the Draft movement. What WE, not Dean, didn't like were the people who latched on; they had their own agenda. The proof of this was how the Draft Clark Organbizers wre frozen out of the organization once the money started rolling in.

I LOVE the draft Clark people from my neck of the woods--they are muy simpatico with the goals of DFA and understand what grass roots is all about.

[Moderator]

64. I'm locking this thread

Reason :

Inflammatory