Gee Kerry bashing is alive and well today

[politicasista]

From MTP to Soros, and now us. I guess we should have nominated someone else who will inspire us, and we can have a beer with. (LOL!) The more we tear our own people down the more I can appreciate them. :bounce:

[GRLMGC]

1. Just ignore it

There's really not much you can do about it. I know it's really annoying but you'll save yourself a brain aneurysm :)

[Tigress DEM]

5. You are so nice, but ignoring things doesn't solve problems.

The DEMS on DU need people telling them to quit bashing Kerry.

If someone disagrees, that's fine, but the point needs to be made again and again because if Bush is impeached (can I get an AMEN?) then WE NEED TO DEMAND the votes be counted and Kerry will be the elected President after all this long, long time.

What the DU doesn't understand is that the World sees what Bush is doing and we aren't alone in our understanding of the truth about what happened in our own elections. Kerry won, but was denied due to vote fraud.

Kerry IS the President and if we can get the chimp out, he can be immediately restored to his proper place. It's true that most people voted for him as a vote for "anyone but Bush", but MOST people DID vote for Kerry, not Bush.

If the DU has swallowed this myth, is there any hope for Joe Public to see the truth?

[uppityperson]

11. Sometimes you have to let people have their own opinions

"Ignore it" means, to me, that sometimes you have to let people bash and be rude. By all means continue to engage people in conversation and dialogue, but it's ok to ignore the rude bashing stuff because that person might be trying to get you to waste your time and energy and not interested in conversing and thinking, or they might be sick or otherwise having a bad day and taking it out on you, or aren't very verbally adept, or some other reason. Use your time and energies where they are useful. Let people bitch and moan and whine (I've done it, the b/m/w ing, and appreciated people letting me) and work where your efforts pay off. Again, don't ignore problems, figure out what amount of effort you want to put into which battles. Continue to talk, continue to spread what you see as truth, let others believe as they may, be open to others believing otherwise and continue the fight.

Hang in there and fight on. Impeaching Bush is a very very very good goal.

[Tigress DEM]

15. Thank You - I love different viewpoints....

Still if someone is saying Nasty stuff just to be nasty I will call them on it and make them put their information out there because anyone can be nasty without substantiating it.... I think we call them freepers?? or is that a level beyond.. actual rw pretending to be one of us?

[uppityperson]

20. Hit the "alert" thingy if it gets too bad.

If it ends up being obviously just meant to provoke and not to discuss, usually you can tell after a couple posts/replies to a topic, click on the alert bar at the bottom left and the administrator will look and decide. BUT don't click alert just because you disagree. It's for people who are just here to be nasty.

DU has it's rightwinger fan club. Freerepublic is one of their forums, there are several.

[Tigress DEM]

22. Thanks

So there are right wingers who just see the chimp for a chimp?
That's cool.

[HeatherG.]

35. Most Freepers Hate Liberals

They worship Bush there, and rarely question anything he does. If you go there you will read comments from people who say things like they are going to pray that Kerry gets cancer again. In their posts they reveal themselves to be violent and without a conscience. They are aware of this site, and alot of them read our posts.

[NYCGirl]

36. If Bush is impeached (and since the GOP controls everything, that'd be a

miracle), then Dick Cheney becomes president. There is absolutely no way that Kerry would be able to take the office.

[Tigress DEM]

41. This was my dilema too.... but someone said that...

Impeachment can go down several layers AND I'm thinking with all the International Ciminal Court attention these days... Canada, Belgium and Japan have private lawsuits against our war criminals that the administration is trying to squelch.

Especially if we can get these people who are any part to ordering torture and violations of the Geneva Convention out, we are going to have the rest running scared. Bush is refusing to sign the ICC agreement that the rest of the Democratic nations have basically all signed. He's showing himself to be guilty as sin and the world sees it.

But yeah, we have to make sure Chenny is caught up too. Thing is with all he's benefitted by Haliburton running amok in Iraq, I don't think he has a chance once the truth hits the fan.

[qwghlmian]

58. There is a little thing standing in the way of your

little fantasy...

It's called US Constitution. And it has very explicit and detailed succession rules that in no way allow Kerry to become president before next elections.

[Tigress DEM]

73. Even if it's proven that the election was fraudulant?

Ken Blackwell (OH AG and co-chair of the repub committee in OH) was supposed to safeguard a fair election process which he did not, even with the current evidence I've read about. His actions and the actions of the judge who let him sidestep justice (also a man with conflict of interest written all over him) denied due process.

Don't you think there's a case to be made that the lack of integrity of the President, VP, AG and the RNC in general caused there to be an environment that prevented the checks and balances on the election from being maintained?

If not, who would we be stuck with? We can impeach Chenny too I was told.

[qwghlmian]

84. It does not matter what is proven -

if you impeach Bush, Cheney becomes president. If you impeach Cheney, Hastert becomes president. Read the Constitution,

http://www.usconstitution.net/consttop_succ.html

see how far down the list you have to go to hit a Democrat.

You have to understand something about Constitutional law. It trumps whatever other law is out there. If tomorrow a video comes out with Bush and Cheney personally stuffing ballot boxes in Ohio, you would still have to follow the impeachment process, and, if successfull, follow that line of succession in the Constitution.

[pbartch]

38. Ignore the bashers.....maybe they will go away

[GRLMGC]

53. Ugh, please don't condescend me

I'm saying that fighting them is futile because you're not going to change their minds. There are other things to worry about

[Tigress DEM]

2. Kerry IS my President. GW2 is a chimp in fancy clothes. n/t

[cali]

34. No matter how much we may wish

Jk was President, he's not. Denial is not a healthy thing.

[candle_bright]

43. I agree.

I might get bashed for this, but I think the ticket would have been stronger as Edwards/Kerry. Or Edwards/someone else.

[Tigress DEM]

47. Well, with that logic Russia wouldn't have protested their election.

I'm not in a bubble, I realize he is not in the White House and his own problems contributed to that. But a great injustice was done to the American people.

It's called Vote Fraud and denying that it happened isn't healthy either. What I'm seeing on this board is that the repubs succeeded in more than stealing the election. They made us believe it was Kerry's fault. Even if he'd done everything perfect there is no way he could have won with the election as crooked as this one.

When I say, cut Kerry slack and back him if we get the chimp back, I'm not just standing up for him, I'm standing up for every American that stood outside in the cold and voted for him and everyone whose vote was manipulated or denied.

The will of the people was "anyone but Bush" and we got robbed. Record numbers of people showed up to vote and only in predominately Democratic neighborhoods were there less voting machines than there were in the same precincts for the primary. Come on.

People stepped up to voting machines that wouldn't LET them select Kerry, when they did it popped up as the Independent or Bush. Come on.

What if the same thing had happened to Dean and he stood up? With the press against Democrats don't you think they would have done the same thing to Dean?

All I'm saying is the onus of the fact that Kerry is not in the White House today is much more on the theives that stole the election than the candidate and the people who got robbed. As co-victims of this crime we need to stand together, not tear each other apart.

[Geek_Girl]

63. I know it sucks that Kerry is not in the White House

But even if fraud was proofed and Bush was impeached Kerry would still not be president. If Cheney was impeached he would still not be president.

Kerry will not be president unless he wins in '08. I think he will be running, maybe you should put your energy and hopes into that. Ignore the Kerry bashers and support Kerry's senatorial initiatives. He is becoming a strong voice in the senatrand that is something that all of us on DU can get behind no matter how we feel about his '08 run or the past election.

[Tigress DEM]

74. So who do we wind up with if Bush and Chenny are impeached?

[NYCGirl]

79. The Speaker of the House, Dennis Hastert. NT

[Tigress DEM]

87. Oh, and he's a peach.....pitt.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A15423-2004Nov26.html

Sigh

[rockymountaindem]

3. I only saw one thread.

I didn't think it was too bad, overall. I was surprised there wasn't more complaining. Although in the past everyone with a gripe against Kerry would start their own thread, but now they seem to consolidate them, so perhaps it's just less visible.

[gizmo1979]

4. At least he's keeping his plans in the arena.

Unlike Gore in 2000.He's really trying to push the debate.

[WI_DEM]

6. Gore gave many highly publicized speeches on major issues

in 2002-2004--including on the Bush economic record and his opposition to the tragic war in Iraq--so he didn't just disappear. He also fought Bush for 32 days after the election taking his case all the way to the Supreme Court.

[JI7]

7. you need to get away from DU

or go to the lounge forum to get away from the politics.

[Tigress DEM]

23. Being PRO-Kerry makes me ineligible for Real Politics??!!

[stray cat]

8. I for one would love to grab a beer with Kerry

However, I like intelligent informed conversation. The idea of a beer with Bush always sounded painful.

[JoshK]

9. It's of no importance to express loyal devotion to Kerry.

He is a two-faced weasel who never should have been entrusted with the nomination. He couldn't defend himself; he didn't fight; he was too cowardly to speak any of the real truth about Bush. Why insist that people continue to pay hommage to him? He's an example of what has become loathesome about the Democratic Party.

[politicasista]

10. You must be a Deaniac or Clarkie

:argh: :wtf: :mad:

[JoshK]

12. Nope, neither.

I'm sort of neutral about Dean, and mildly negative on Clark. I like Kucinich, though. And I like the version of Al Gore that emerged in about 2002.

[ClarkUSA]

49. Thanks!

Not one Clarkista has said anything negative about Kerry here. Nor have we gratutitously touted our own guy at the expense of Kerry. Let's keep the stereotypes to a minimum, okay?

[Tigress DEM]

18. When you get the Democratic Nomination and ...

Bust your ass all around the country dealing with a media that twists everything you say, then you have a right to say Kerry is what is "loathsome" about the Democratic Party.

For my vote YOU are what is "loathsome" about the Democratic Party. Sit on your ass and piss and moan about how someone else who is DOING something isn't DOING it right.

<<< I still despise the way people rip our DEMS apart and I'm leaving my main comment in so people know what others are objecting to. I took out the worst comment.

AND FOR the Record I love the fact that we are free here to say our piece and maybe become better educated for it >>>

[uppityperson]

25. Excuse me, but aren't you doing what you're complaining about?

Discuss, disagree, talk, but quit bashing other people for having other opinions. This response seems rather, ah, nasty. You can't complain about people bashing if you do it yourself. Suggestion, clean it up and quit insulting.

[Tigress DEM]

28. Yeah, you're right.

To the person I told to take a long walk off a short pier, I'm sorry.

[Cheswick2.0]

29. Oh no, sorry but you are wrong

I am an american citizen and I have freedom of speech. Kerry was my candidate and I worked to get him elected. I gave time and money. I will say exactly what I think and so will anyone else who posts here. Get used to it, this is a democracy.

[uppityperson]

32. Regarding Message board rules

2. Treat people with respect. Don't be rude or bigoted. Discuss the message, not the messenger

Do not post personal attacks or engage in name-calling against other members of this discussion board.

If you are going to disagree with someone, please stick to the message rather than the messenger. For example, if someone posts factually incorrect information, it is appropriate to say, "your facts are wrong," but it is not appropriate to say "you are a liar."
Do not publicly accuse another member of this message board of being a disruptor, troll, conservative, Republican, or FReeper. Do not try to come up with cute ways of skirting around the spirit of this rule. If you think someone is a disruptor, click the "Alert" link below their post so the moderators can deal with it. Unfortunately, it has become all too common for members of this message board to label anyone with a slightly different point of view as a disruptor. We disapprove of this behavior because its intent is to stifle discussion, enforce a particular "party line," and pre-emptively label a particular point of view as inappropriate or unwelcome. This makes thoughtful and open debate virtually impossible.

Democratic Underground is a "big tent" message board which welcomes a broad range of progressive opinions. As such, you are likely to disagree strongly with many of the comments you see expressed here. Please do not take these differences of opinion personally. The simple fact that someone disagrees with you does not give you the right to lash out and break the rules of this message board. A thick skin is usually required to participate on this or any message board.

[LittleClarkie]

48. Well, considering we're moderated, it's more of a benevolent dictatorship

And by our very words, we can't stop anyone from saying whatever they please. I'm always amused when another, not you, but others act as if we can somehow cow them from our little keyboards. Grow a pair, I say. If you have something to say, just say it, popular or not.

And I say that I also worked and gave money to John Kerry's campaign, and if I still believe he's a good man and still want to support his endeavors, I also have that right.

So you post yours and I'll post mine, for good or ill.

But I still don't see how this helps us fight Bush Co. Damn primaries are over. So is the election 2004.

Election 2006, on the other hand, is looming large. So is the DNC Chairmanship (go Dean). And the Gonzalez vote. So why are we still bashing the last candidate?

[JoshK]

31. Cool post!

I really have the greatest respect the high intellectual quality of your remarks.:eyes:

There seems to be an assumption on websites like this, that anyone who dissents from the conventional wisdom, is "sitting on his ass and moaning." Actually, you haven't the faintest idea of what I do, and it's meaningless to accuse anyone on an anonymous website of "sitting on his ass and moaning" because that's all a website like this is, anyhow. If you whine about Republicans, you are sitting on your ass and moaning. If you criticize Democrats, ditto. I guess the only thing one can do to escape such judgements, is to agree with you, eh?

Kerry's problem wasn't a media that "twisted" his remarks. It was his gutlessness, his trying to pass himself off as a war hero while concealing his very significant past as an outspoken anti-war activist. It was his support of the indefensible Iraq war, even as he pretended to criticize Bush's management of it. It was his gutless refusal to mention the torture scandals, Enron, the lack of WMD, etc. He lost because he stunk.

[saracat]

50. And 59 +million voted for him.

He wasn't passing himself off as anything. You sound worse than the opposition. It is amazing what some who haven't a tenth of Kerry's accomplishments will say to bash him. How many medals do you have? how many times have you been elected to the Senate ? And How many anti-war movements have you led? Just curious.

[Tigress DEM]

55. Thank You - the TRUTH cuts both ways.

And buying the bs the opposition put out or being arm chair quarter backs afterwards is always easier than organizing and doing something about it.

What I think is if this board gets people motivated to write their Senators or newspaper or protest at FOX it's all good.

No one could have won an election as rigged as this one. So making it Kerry's fault amazes me.

[Generator]

101. You call that a mandate?

I laugh. I scoff.

A REAL mandate is when you get more votes than your opponent any way you can, especially by not counting the votes of said opponent accurately and as added bonus(or as we say in my family-BoneASS) stop as many people that wanted to vote for you opponent any way you can.

That's Democracy at it's finest. Don't forget to mock and deride anyone that dares to question your mandate.

[Tigress DEM]

52. Additional Edit about getting out of line

Uppity was right, I did it too.

Tearing each other apart and sitting on our asses pissing and moaning WITHOUT IT LEADING TO POSITIVE CORRECTIVE ACTION is what I think is loathsome about the Democratic party.

Having our own opinion is great. Having to tear people down to feel we are right isn't. And I feel if we bash Kerry we bash those who supported him.

My Irish got up and I blew my mouth too, however I did apologize and I've felt bad about it all week. I'll be a better person because of it. If that happens for other people as well, I'll be happy - even if they disagree with me.

[LittleClarkie]

42. Die Heretic!

Have at you!!

Homage? No. But is bashing such as yours helpful. Criticism is one thing. But comments such as yours are divorced from reality.

[Upfront]

13. Kerry= Skul&Bones

Same as Bush. He did not even try to win. Just make a good show. Fooled you, not me! You want to win, hire Dean! If you don't, good by!

[New Earth]

14. um

ok

[mvd]

17. I second that

:hi:

[Tigress DEM]

21. So you buy the repub lie that Bush really won?

Who is the one fooled? Afraid it is you and not me.

Dean isn't a bad guy, but he isn't the President who was elected and lost in the mis-managed counting process.

Sure, I really wish Kerry had fought for it, but if we know what we do and it's this awful, how much more awful is it really? Bush has removed everyone he possibly could and outs whistle blowers.

Russians tried to poison their contender, if he'd died a recount would have done no good.

A dead President doesn't do me any good either.

Dean is someone to consider for the future, but if we can oust Bush before 2008 we should get behind Kerry as the one we did elect and who is honestly the REAL President.

[LittleClarkie]

46. Your tinfoil hat is on alittle tight. You might want to loosen it.

It's strangling your brain.

S & B = B & S

[Tigress DEM]

56. So because I believe there was election fraud...

You think I take the short bus to area 51 on a regular basis.

Please.

Have you read anything about the disgusting way they are treating the people who were trying to get our votes counted? Did you see the video of what happened in Ohio? These aren't little conspiracy theories I'm manufacturing. This is DUE Process broken in half by people who have big money behind them.

Diebold voting machines owned by repubs. An AG in Ohio who promised - in writing - to deliver the votes to Bush.

You want to live in a dream world that blames it all on Kerry - go ahead. It's a free country, or it was anyway. Just don't cry if I think you are the one who isn't getting the point.

The point is there is more going on here than one candidate blowing it and it's going to take a lot more than talking trash about him to fix it.

[LittleClarkie]

65. Ahem, follow the thread trail. The Skull and Bones conspiracy theorist

was where the comments were directed.

I am your kind of tinfoil hatter. My battle cry is "Karen Hughes was RIGHT!" in regard to the electoral landslide.

And I am a Kerry supporter to the point of being sickening. Though I will admit it was a flawed campaign, that was but one aspect of what was going on. I think it was a flawed but ultimately effective campaign, in that we actually won, and the other side had to either suppress or outright fraud the vote to be victorious. They must be so proud.

If there is some blame to be handed out, I believe it is to be shared, with the media, Kerry, me, you, Soros, Moveon.org, and whoever else was involved. Too easy just to point at Kerry and absolve ourselves of any responsibility, even in regard to the fraud.

So... I agree with you for the most part.

[Tigress DEM]

67. You are so cool. You are so right.

If each of us fixes our own piece and helps the DEMs in place to see the light of what needs to be done moving forward, we can get this thing done.

It's really exciting and humbling at the same time. Not just because I got lost in the thread.... but because before all this happened I thought I was a good DEM because I always voted and kept current, I thought, on what was going on.

[Laurab]

57. LOL B & S

First time I saw that (S&B = B&S). I still can't believe there are people who actually believe that "B&S".

Of course I can't believe people are wasting all that good anger on John Kerry, either. It could be so much more useful if it were used fighting the bad guys.

[Tigress DEM]

77. Wonderful Post!

Anyone who can get with actually using our anger to deal with the people who REALLY put this mess together with malice and forethought is a common sense DEM.

:bounce:

[Laurab]

97. Wouldn't it be nice?

And probably effective too. The energy from that anger could write SO many letters, make SO many phone calls, and do so many productive things. It just makes no sense to me at all that people choose to bash and rebash, not just Kerry, but a lot of the dems. With friends like that....

[Hell Hath No Fury]

121. The "angry" folks here at DU...

have spent the last four f**king years writing SO many letters, making SO many phone calls, and doing SO many productive things that it would exhaust you just hearing about it.

Fours years of GWB and too many Democrats refusing to do their duty as the opposition makes for a very l-o-n-g time and a very short fuse.

[Arkana]

16. Thank you!

Finally, someone else who doesn't think Kerry should be lynched. I'm so sick of hearing "he should have done that" or "he should have said this" or "that windsurfing crap was a mistake" or "Kerry threw the election to Bush because they're Skull and Bones buddies."

[salin]

19. Not just Kerry bashing here today

some Dean bashing and on both of those type of bash threads some Clark bashing.

Somethings haven't changed at all in the past year. Expending all this bashing energy on each other - pulling at scabs to keep internal wounds festering... all of it seemingly counter productive.

[Tigress DEM]

26. Agreed - for the record, I like Dean also.

[saracat]

61. What , Heresey!

Don't you know it is an either or proposition? You aren't allowed to like them both!LOL!;)

[Tigress DEM]

80. Funny!

:yourock:

[ScreamingMeemie]

54. To me it signals that the time has come for major changes within the

party. What we've got isn't working...and yet I think a lot of our ideas might be the wrong way to go.

[Tigress DEM]

60. What I'd like to see...

Is the Progressive ideals and the DEM ideals both come together and make this a stronger party.

If the Progressives are progressive in name only and merely want to trash the DEMs and take over, then this is all stupid, a waste of time - another way to hand the country over to the repubs again.

On the other hand, I've seen a lot I like and people like Uppity who make us all accountable to demonstrate the best in us and leave the rest behind.

I understand venting, but the time for the blame is long behind us. Whether we need to act assertively to back the DEMS who are making an effort to do their job in this screwed up legislative environment or try to define what platform truly defines us as we move forward, all this pissy stuff just gets in the way - no matter who it is directed at and for the third time - I'm sorry I was part of the problem even if it was only one thread.

[killbotfactory]

24. I'm not a republican, so I don't devoutly follow any of our leaders

and mindlessly excuse their mistakes.

[Tigress DEM]

27. Good that you aren't mindless... are you saying I am?

[killbotfactory]

33. Only if you think Kerry was a perfect candidate

Whose loss was due to no fault of his own

[Tigress DEM]

82. See misplaced post #37

:silly: I'll get the hang of this yet.

[madrchsod]

30. ok i`ll fess up..

i don`t like the way kerry folded. when edwards came out and said we will count every vote then the same morning kerry folds up and walks away-sorry in my mind he quit. we believed in the process and it failed us again. so for me i don`t give a shit what he says or what he does.he didn`t stand and fight. there are others who just might want to get this party moving away from the republican light of the dnc. we need dean,boxer,dayton,durbin and any other democrat who is willing to take this party away from the failed policies of carter,reagen, the bushs, and clinton presidencies.

[Tigress DEM]

37. Nobody is a perfect anything, I agree it would have been great...

If Kerry would have continued to fight and this whole election fraud business had been overturned by one man.

However, having read as much as I have about how deep the rot goes not only in Ohio but in Washington and how Ken Blackwell and the repubs above him simply behave above the law and the media lets him get away with it, I think it's going to take more than one man to make the change.

Also, the commander in theif is not rational. He's a raving lunatic with the entire military at his command. His people are selected for loyalty. Colin Powell is being outsted/leaving as is any other person with half a lick of sense. The CIA has been retooled and the head of the FBI has been ignoring their operatives who complain about torture in Guantanamo Bay.

To me it's entirely possible that Kerry was given a really persuasive argument to step back. After all, it isn't just his own life, he has family.

All I'm asking is that people cut him a little slack and that in spite of him being an imperfect candidate, he is the actual person elected by the will of the people. If, miracle of miracle happens and Bush et al get impeached, we should stand behind him at least to replace the mad man at the helm.

I'd be saying the same thing if Dean had won the nomination and if in the analysis had won the election in spite of obviously fraudulant results.

2008 comes I will vote for the person the party selects and it's most likely going to be someone new.

I just want to remind people WE DID WIN, the bogus results of the vote count not withstanding, WE DID WIN. If we get as much support behind any candidate again and in the interm nail the people who committed vote fraud so we can have an honest election, WE WILL WIN AGAIN and this time everyone will know it.

[zulchzulu]

40. The problem with your theory is the myth that Kerry quit on Nov. 3, 04

He didn't.

This was just the beginning:
http://rsa.cwrl.utexas.edu/archives/2004/11/from_cam_kerry.html

[zulchzulu]

39. Watch him on MTP and see that he is indeed our President

Windows Media

Watch him and see someone with a full grasp of what is going on. And he is a gentleman about it. What a concept.

[Malva Zebrina]

44. Kerry is not my own people

OK?

He is not, imo, being kept alive for my benefit or for the benefit of the nation, from what I have seen and read of his recent press releases and PR photo ops.

I voted for him as an ABB voter. Never again will I do that with my vote.

Right now, he is nothing but a Senator from Massachusetts and a failed presidential candidate, trying desperately, as a belt way player far too long, to keep alive for another run on ----- nothing much.

The crucial most important issue is the war on Iraq. And what have we heard about that from Kerry? When hundreds of thousands have been killed and murdered, when so many of our own are dead and/or mutilated and wounded, when we have a farce of a godamm election that makes Bush look like a hero because of the PR accounts

Where is Kerry in all of that? Instead, Kerry comes out in favor of health care for children, relatively silent upon what is happening in Iraq.

Not for me,. Thanks but no thanks.

Let us move on to someone who is not playing this game, OK?

[ScreamingMeemie]

45. You tell 'em!!

:yourock:

[marcologico]

62. Kerry didn't run as "my own people." He ran as an intelligent risk-taker

with serious policy solutions to urgent problems, like Iraq and the economy. If you can't be bothered to tune in that's your fault.

Anyway the policy-lite guys will be happy to flatter you while fleecing you.

[Malva Zebrina]

98. Likie everyone else on these boards

I tuned in, every day, every minute, every second up to the last minutes of the election and the aftermath.

Do not accuse me of not being tuned in.

I am tuned in,was tuned in and I am a realist. I do not fawn over anyone for the sake of adoration, blind adoration, and can see clearly what the flaws are/were .

Kerry is undoubtably a good man; he lost to the worst president ever.

Fact.

There are reasons why and there are reasons why this should not have been.

It is wise imo, to examine them all and the failure of Kerry to cop the win when it could have been a pushover against stupid.

I cannot see these bids, these photo ops, these initiatives, that are somewhere still on the fringe of the real issues, as anything positive, but the pitch to stay in the game, when the game is over.

[LittleClarkie]

99. Fact?

You're discounting talk of fraud and suppression and such then? Do the GOP normally do that if they're confident of a win?

[Tigress DEM]

66. Let me ask you this...

Let's say Bush and his administration get what is coming to them for everything they have done.

We aren't the only ones who see what a sham our elections were and if you think people who aren't watching FOX think Bush is a hero. You're not giving most of the world much credit.

The world is stepping up and trying to get behind us here - 3 countries have public outcry and some law suits against Bush for war crimes. If we can get those creeps out on war crimes brought up by other courts and all their other illegal activities we could force an impeachment process.

The DEMS should stand together in outrage over what has been done - the election fraud, the torture, the no-bid government contracts for a war that shouldn't have been fought anyway. We can shame the repubs into going along with impeachment. "What ARE you FOR toture?"

In that event, once the stranglehold on due process is released, we have a chance to at least get our Anyone But Bush election results. It doesn't matter why you voted. It matters that you voted and that there was corruption that mangled the results.

Kerry won whether he walked away or not. WE WON. I for one want the White House back. It belongs to US - not the lying cheating assholes who rigged the election.

WE stepped up to the plate and hit this damm thing home and the upmire called it for the team paying him the most money - so to speak. And that pisses me off. This is MY country. This is YOUR country. WE voted and WE got screwed.

I wouldn't let a rapist get away with this kind of crap and I don't think the DEMS should lie here and take it either. Much less blame our candidate who got screwed worse than we did.

[Malva Zebrina]

100. No, we did not win

face it.

Magical thinking by holding on by one's fingernails to a failed effort by inventing an excuse, is counterproductive.

to both reason and logic and to any efforts in the future to win


If you do not admit the mistakes, they will repeat themself in the future.

[ScreamingMeemie]

51. Gee, it's funny how truth=bashing today.

Kerry wasn't my pick, but I busted ass for him on the streets and yes he let me down. He's not my personal saviour. He's a politician, a follower, a do what everyone else is doing kind of guy. There was so much more he could have said and done, and yet he sat back and played "chess". Sorry, that's just how I feel.

[LittleClarkie]

59. That's fine

That's not what I'm talking about, anyway.

It's the "Skull and Bones" "Kerry rolled over" "Kerry's a coward" "Kerry who?" comments that make my personal teeth itch, not the "he let me down" "I don't support him" comments. I think you're dead wrong, but you have a perfect right. He was one of the 2 who voted against Condi in committee, and only one of 13 who voted against her in the Senate. That's not exactly "what everyone else is doing."

There's just a certain level of childishness in some of the bashing. And no bashing does not equal truth. Most of the time, bashing equals someone's opinion. The Skull and Bones posts are based on paranoia, for instance, not on any fact except that they both were in the same frat. Oh ah.

[marcologico]

64. You tell 'em!!

:yourock:

[ScreamingMeemie]

70. Tell us what?

:shrug:

[marcologico]

76. What we told you. n/t

[ScreamingMeemie]

81. Absolutely zippo...

Nothing I haven't heard before. Nothing that'll ever change my mind. :hi: I'm all for big change.Sorry.

[ScreamingMeemie]

69. ...and he voted for the war. This has and will always stick in my throat.

But I put it aside, only to see him let us down time and again, by not responding to charges levied during his campaign. I am sick of Washington Insiders. Period. Most of the time, bashing=truth..no matter who the supposedly bashed is. But it has never been specifically directed at Mr Kerry. He got off pretty clean IMO.

Thanks.

[marcologico]

75. Well I can tell you that you're misinformed. Why don't you look into what

Kerry actually voted for? Getting facts from fund-raising pitch letters is not the hallmark of a responsible citizenry.

[ScreamingMeemie]

78. I did look into Kerry before I threw all my energy behind him, against

my better judgement. This one vote, and the disaster, destruction and death it caused, is enough for me. Sorry. Not just your average "fundraising pitch" reader here...but that was cute...and new even!

[Name removed]

83. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ScreamingMeemie]

85. No. Every explanation Kerry gave for his vote, that they all gave for

their votes, wasn't kosher. As a member of our local Dem party (long before this election) I call these people into question for one reason alone. I knew what Bush was going to do with that vote, my neighbors, husband, friends and family knew what Bush was going to do with that vote...and yet, we should follow along and think that our Congresspeople had no idea what he would do with that vote...that he would wait? Come on. I don't buy it and never will. If that is the truth then these people have no right representing us. Which further illustrates the very pressing need for change within our party. We've got to stand up at some point. This has nothing to do with primary arguments. This has to do with very real problems we have. The primaries are over. With or without the other candidates, I still call Kerry into question.


And on edit: I could say you're defending Kerry in the very recognizable manner of all die hard Kerry supporters on this board. You have a right to support him...just as I have a right to not care much for him.

[marcologico]

88. Then try this explanation:

He voted for it to win Iowa. He won Iowa. He got the nomination. That wouldn't have happened if he'd voted no. And the war would have happened wether he did or not.

Anyway just to remind you for the thousandth time, it was not a "war resolution," and it was not an endorsement of Bush's war. It was simply an authorization to use force. If Bush abused it, which he did, the responsibility is not Kerry's, just like if you cause a pileup it's not your state's responsibility because they issued you a driver's license.

[ScreamingMeemie]

89. Your second paragraph further illustrates what I posted. Everyone

knew, except supposedly our senators, what he was going to do with that vote. It would have been simpler to vote no, like those senators with the courage to stand up did.

That he voted no just to win, is not something that I consider a good thing. I'm a Democrat, against the war. We need to stand up. That wasn't standing up. It was insider politics.

[marcologico]

92. We need to stand up, groan. I wondered when that was coming. n/t

[ScreamingMeemie]

94. Sorry? You've lost me there.

Anyway, nice debating with you. A pointer, I never "talk down" to someone, or assume that they are not involved or listening to "talking points" when I disagree with them. It makes for a pleasanter exchange.

Take care.

[marcologico]

95. Let's just say you confirmed my original suspicion.

You hear that phrase a lot in certain quarters.

[Tigress DEM]

90. I hear you. Yet, I do remember what he said and ...

I had a different reaction.

When he voted for the resoultion the administration had witheld critical information - even from Colin Powell, the Secretary of State. So, even as a citizen, I thought we might have to go in and take care of the situation if it really means preventing nuclear war.

When the truth came out, Kerry, was being promoted as a war hero. I mean how can you go wrong with that? One went to war, the other was AWOL? He was also being accused of flip flopping just for actually analyzing new information and making an intelligent decision to change his mind - something beyond the grasp of neo-cons.

What I heard Kerry say is that he still would have authorized the resolution with some important caveats.

#1 Work with the UN.
#2 Wait until we get more support from our allies.
#3 Be upfront about why we wanted to attack Iraq
- Saddam was committing atrocities and needed to be disposed.

With those in place on the resolution, we'd still be arguing about the election results and Iraq would have never happened.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

120. I'm sorry, but that will not fly...

"When he voted for the resoultion the administration had witheld critical information - even from Colin Powell, the Secretary of State. So, even as a citizen, I thought we might have to go in and take care of the situation if it really means preventing nuclear war."

That is what Mr. Kerry wanted you to believe, that he was mislead by the Evil Bush Adminsration.

You are kind of new here, but folks here at DU knew what the truth was at the time -- knew that what Bush & Co. was presenting as the truth was indeed a pack of lies -- knew that what Colin Powell was saying to the UN was a load of crap -- and we knew that EVERY SINGLE SENATOR & REPRESENTATIVE KNEW IT TOO.

Boxer knew it, Kucinich knew it, Bryd knew it and they had the balls to say so with their votes -- but many, including Mr. Kerry and Ms. Clinton, took the "plausible deniablity" route by voting for the IWR knowing full well thay would later claim ignorance. They were (are) first and foremost politicians who did not want the "stigma" of voting against the IWR used against them in later races.

And PSista: Kerry was not my choice as the Democratic candidate but I did my part and voted for the man to try to save my country from another four years of GWB. And guess what? I get to bitch and moan about and "bash" Kerry or any other Democratic or Republican or Green or Socialist or Libertarian candidate as I please.

George W. Bush hasn't done away with the First Amendment quite yet. Welcome to America. :hi:

[LittleClarkie]

123. In other words, he would have authorized again if Bush would have done

what he said he was going to do in the first damn place.

Like Michael Moore said, Kerry had but one position on Iraq. "He trusted YOU, Mr. President." Bet he's not gonna do that again.

[Tigress DEM]

86. Bashing is when we say it was ALL his fault and turn it all...

into something that one person could have fixed.

I felt let down too. I just don't throw a candidate out that I stood up for. Get in his face and make him accountable, yeah, but it doesn't have to be so nasty as some people do here.

You have some good points and you're certainly entitled to feel as you do.

I just feel fired up when I realize that without the election fraud, WE DID DO OUR JOB, and when people say every little breathe Kerry didn't take right "cost" him the election... and I'm not saying you are putting forth anything like that, but I've seen a lot of scathing posts on Kerry... then I feel it takes away from all our hard work.

[LSdemocrat]

68. Yes it would have been good if we had nominated someone inspiring

But we managed to nominate the LEAST inspiring candidate (other than Lieberman) instead.

[LittleClarkie]

71. Gee, he inspired me

Not always with his words, but often with his actions in the past.

[marcologico]

72. Quite a few voters find Bush inspiring. Maybe we should use a better

metric?

Anyway I find Kerry as inspiring as any Dem to come down the pike in the last 70 years.

[Tigress DEM]

93. Right wing inspiration is a little different....

I take intelligence and committment over political glitz anyway.

Inspiration isn't a bad word. Being inspired by Bush or watching Ann Coulter on FOX, well that's plain nutty, but the act of being inspired really isn't affected by what some people are inspired by.

Someone might be too busy to appreciate a sunset that inspires you. Doesn't take away from your experience.

Besides, they have taken ownership of a lot of good words - and I'm not giving them any more.

:hippie:

[Tigress DEM]

91. I was inspired. Not from the start, but he blew Bush away in the

Debates. I was jumping around like a Super Bowl fan during a few places where he handed Bush his ass in a sling.

Still remember when Mondale got "un-nice" in 2000 they say that is what cost us the election too.

[marcologico]

96. me too! Kerry pitched a threepeat shutout

but GOOD!

:toast:

[sendero]

102. I criticize Kerry...

... in two types of threads.

The first type is where the know-it-alls here, you know, the "electable" crowd, the ones who were sure that Kerry was working "behind the scenes" on Ohio, those folks - come in here bashing Dean or Clark.

Where do they get the fuck off. Their guy got the nomination and he LOST. He LOST against what should have been the easiest candidate to beat in our lifetimes.

Then, the other type of thread is where Kerry is going to run again in 2008! This pisses me off to no end. He had his shot, he is a good man and I respect him for that but he cannot win because he doesn't have the chops. If he is nominated again, I fucking give up.

So there - you wanna know why Kerry gets slammed around here? Its because the Kerry junkies cannot admit IT IS OVER FOR HIM. Why should the party give him another shot? Exactly in what fucking parallel universe is he not going to make the same obvious mistakes again?

Winning a campaign against the Rep noise machine is not easy and it is not for nice people. Kerry is too fucking nice to be president. It is that simple.

Flame away, I could care less.

[wisteria]

103. Lynn Cheney said he "wasn't a nice man".

Nobody is perfect.Why would you think a smart man wouldn't learn from his mistakes and not repeat them. Gosh, I suppose your candidate wouldn't make any mistakes. I don't share your opinion that it is over for him.If he runs again, I will support him. If you follow your logic than Dean and Clark shouldn't be able to make a come back either. Obviously, they made mistakes in the primaries and forfeited their opportunity to try again.

[marcologico]

104. LMAO, good one. Welcome wisteria!

:toast:

[sendero]

105. Bullshit..

... don't compare a primary to the general election. That is exactly our problem, the primary winner is not running against another Dem, it is a whole different ball game.

Lynn Cheney's opinion could not interest me less.

[progmom]

106. .

[sendero]

108. Can I have some?

:)

[marcologico]

107. . . . and now you know why Kerry voted for the authorization to use force.

Congratulations, you're learning.

[sendero]

109. No mi amigo..

... I already know. I know that that single vote is the biggest mistake Kerry made. One decision of political expediency that eventually cost him the election.

Once the campaign was underway, he had to tread the "good war, badly done" nuance bullshit and that did not play in Peoria. If he had done the right thing to begin with, he could have played it differently and maybe won.

Or maybe not. But that is my opinion, and I see a pattern in his actions. He did not get into the fray in Ohio because he was already worried about 2008. That makes me 100% uninterested in him.

[marcologico]

110. Wrong, it DID play in Peoria, and the rest of Illinois, in case you

weren't paying attention.

[sendero]

111. "playing in peoria"..

... is a figure of speech. But I suppose such concepts are well over your head. Sorry, I'll try to use simpler terms in the future when talking to you. :)

[marcologico]

113. Thanks for explaining the obvious. The point is that it was a shrewd vote

for this reason: he kept his base (did you notice the unified convention?) and they voted for him -- the real base, not the faux "netroots" -- and he got enough swing votes to come within shouting distance of a win.

If he'd blown that vote, you would have been campaigning for Edwards, who incidentally also voted for it.

[sendero]

114. I understand the theory..

... but I'm not sure I buy it. Right after the election, the "was the war worth it" polls were less than 50%.

The fact is (ok, my opinion), Kerry could not differentiate himself from Bush on the issue of National Security because he had to stay behind the war. That made him just a "me too" compared to Bush on the issue, and the incumbent always wins in a "me too" scenario.

We'll never really know the outcome of all these "what ifs". But I stand by my opinion, vehemently, that Kerry had his chance and he is damaged goods. It's near impossible to get a Senator into the presidency any more anyway. And certainly not someone like Kerry who will stand by and let the Swift Boat folks and other define him. this is a lesson we already learned and why he hesitated to fight back on that I'll never understand.

[marcologico]

116. I'm saying he needed it for the primaries, and it didn't hurt

him in the general. But consider this: the only group that went for Bush in a bigger way than in 2000 was white women, not Mexicans, fundies, or NRA nuts, and guess why? Security. Bush and Cheney scared the shit out them. That's who Kerry pitched his get-tough convention to.

Also, did you watch the presidential debates? Kerry criticized the war continuously for two months, starting with his NYU speech on Sept. 9, and pretty boldly, too.

[sendero]

117. I watched all three debates..

... but Kerry could not make the real and obvious points that we are LESS SAFE for even going into Iraq because he VOTED FOR IT. (I'm aware that he didn't actually vote for it, but that point is lost on 90% of Americans so it isn't worth pursuing).

He could have WON THE NATIONAL SECURITY DEBATE had he a way to truly differentiate himself from Bush. He couldn't.

And finally, Kerry did not win the debates, Bush** lost them. There were many, many opportunities for Kerry to step in with a strong uppercut and he missed most of them. He just doesn't have the instinct for the kill that is required to win against the Rep machine.

IMHO.

Finally - we disagree and you have your man and I have mine (Clark). I respect your standing up for him and agree or not we're really both on the same team in the final analysis :)

[marcologico]

118. Kerry pounded Chimp into the floor, but I agree with your last point.

:toast:

[LittleClarkie]

119. I would disagree that Kerry didn't win the debates

So many things he brought up resulted in that wonderful look on Bush's face. He said things designed to get under Bush's skin, and he did it. He had Bush changing personas for each debate like Gore did in 2000. The volunteers around here saw it... suddenly we had more people than we quite knew what to do with at Kerry HQ. We had to wheel out the yard signs a week early so that these new people coming down for signs and stickers wouldn't be turned away empty handed.

It strikes me as revisionist to take those battles away from Kerry. He lost the war, but those wins still belong to him.

I can't believe Kerry brought up Bush's dad. And Tora Bora. And several other things that gave us the glorious "Blinky" persona. And as some said at the time, we thought Gore won the first debate too in 2000, but people didn't stay up all night talking abou it.

Kerry worked his ass off for months one report said, making sure his answers were tight and that he had the timing down to the second. He knew he could get under Bush's skin, and he ended up winning the debate handily that the Republicans thought was going to be his weakest.

So... I dispute your conclusion that Kerry didn't win the debates and that Bush merely lost them.

[marcologico]

125. Yep the debates were awesome, even with Chimpy's handpicked moderators

lobbing him handpicked questions, like "tell us about the women in your life, because Karl is worried about that demographic." Funny how the abortion questions always came at the end too.

[TayTay]

112. Because it' never over

You don't know what is going to happen between now and 2007. (Probably mid-year, when most potential candidates really make up their minds.) At this time in 2001, it all looked so different than it does now. There will be potential dems who will rise and fall between now and when decision time dawns. Nobody knows what will happen. Could Kerry run again, sure, anything can happen. Should he, shouldn't he, etc, is all speculation. It's too early to tell. (Lots of things happen to potentials, family problems, illness, not wanting to do it again, etc.)

If Kerry runs again he goes back into the primary meat-grinder with everybody else. He has to get support, raise money and fight it out. He will have baggage. He will have name recognition. He will have enemies and friends. Who knows what will happen. It is still too early.

If he does run and you dislike him, then I heartily recommend that you find someone else and vote for them. This process is usually referred to as participatory democracy. When it works, it can be a great thing. In the mean time, there is this bill that the Dems introduced that will fix a lot of problems with the last election and how it was run. I'm concentrating on that for now.

[wisteria]

124. I agree with TayTay

I also want to thank Marcologico for the kind welcome.

[Califooyah Operative]

115. The bashers of anyone, including kerry,

are loud. that's all, i don't think they represent much, a small minorities who have nothing/no one positive to rally around and believe in so they instead bash. The majority of us i think are rational, and respectful of our democrats and their right to their own opinions and views and can respectfully disagree with thing we don't like with out bashing and slandering; it's farely transparent.

[radio4progressives]

122. Kerry's getting bashed today? Really? Please provide URL n/t