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NH today: Dean 23, Kerry 20, Clark 15, Undecided 26

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NewYorkerfromMass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-20-04 02:57 PM
Original message
NH today: Dean 23, Kerry 20, Clark 15, Undecided 26
Edited on Tue Jan-20-04 03:23 PM by NewYorkerfromMass
Suffolk U/Channel 7 Boston http://www.whdh.com/features/articles/hiller/A147/

Edwards at 6 in pie chart:
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-20-04 02:58 PM
Response to Original message
1. That was quick...I mean
reaction to Iowa and Dean losing the rest of his soft support.
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NewYorkerfromMass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-20-04 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. polling on 18-19th
No Iowa effect yet, but Kerry surge is already in progress.
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maddezmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-20-04 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #5
11. wow
wonder what's going to happen to my man Wes? :(
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pscot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-20-04 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #11
19. His tactical decision not to fight in Iowa
may prove to be a strategic blunder.
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SahaleArm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-20-04 04:38 PM
Response to Reply #19
53. Depends - Dean was mid-40's and sinking fast...
His speech last night may have sealed his fate.

Clark skipping Iowa was a great move if he finishes 2nd in NH; if he's 3rd it's a push; 4th it was a bad move. The SOTU will drive the attention from Iowa to Bush. Then it's back to NH for a week before mini-Tuesday.
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gulliver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-20-04 06:44 PM
Response to Reply #11
58. Don't forget the debate Thursday.
That's where Clark can beat Kerry. A lot of people will be watching.
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incapsulated Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-20-04 02:59 PM
Response to Original message
2. Undecided: *26*
I saw this before.

It's going to be a dogfight, folks.
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DoveTurnedHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-20-04 02:59 PM
Response to Original message
3. WHEW!
Edited on Tue Jan-20-04 02:59 PM by DoveTurnedHawk
I was actually worried the first poll after Iowa would be MUCH worse for Clark, and much better for Edwards.

As long as Clark can keep his expectations set at third, he will be fine, and a surprise showing at second or first would be phenomenal.

DTH
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arcos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-20-04 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #3
36. this poll has no Iowa effect... n/t
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DoveTurnedHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-20-04 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #36
42. Well Crap
:evilfrown:

DTH
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TacticalPeek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-20-04 04:21 PM
Response to Reply #42
47. Except that some of the IA revised trends were already in place,
hence IA.

But this would be missing the 'winner'/exceeded-expectations aura, etc.

I doubt there will be much more than continuing shifting as now and recently. (Whistling nonchalantly)

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Joe the Revelator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-20-04 02:59 PM
Response to Original message
4. This might be bad for Clark...
Looks like some of his supporters are now undecided. It fits with the idea that he and Kerry are appealing to the same voters. He (Clark) is going to need a hell of a week.
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Bertrand Donating Member (764 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-20-04 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #4
13. Possibly
I think the goal for Clark is that he needs to at least finish third and ahead of Edwards, but because the state seems to be into play, anything could happen. It should be a fun race this week.

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windansea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-20-04 03:01 PM
Response to Original message
6. who will beat the spread???
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ShaneGR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-20-04 03:02 PM
Response to Original message
7. UNDECIDEDS 26??????????????????????????//
MASSIVE #
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NewYorkerfromMass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-20-04 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. Hey. Clark and Kerry are both great guys
eom
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GalleryGod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-20-04 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #9
24. Dean's Expectations "Bar" is HIGH, now...Must get 30+%
Who needs to do Ads against Howard?
Just tape his OWN appearances and do your own voice over!:nopity:
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Zinnola Donating Member (121 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-20-04 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #24
43. Any you wonder why some of us
Dean supporters votes may not be transferable. Your behavior towards my candidate is a turnoff, and the more I see this crap the less I will vote for Washington Insider DEM
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-20-04 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #43
46. So we aren't allowed to state our opinions about Dean
and if we do, you threaten to not vote Democratic. Sorry, but that argument is 100% unpersuasive.

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cthrumatrix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-20-04 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. no edwards..?
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bearfartinthewoods Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-20-04 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #7
29. the iowa 'undecideds" went to kerry and Edwrds 2-1 over dean
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mot78 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-20-04 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #7
33. It's scary that there are so many undecideds
Clark and Kerry will be jockying for these people.
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cthrumatrix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-20-04 03:02 PM
Response to Original message
8. this is 50 state war ....and the Dean people are ready...we know that
numbers talk...but we also know alot happens after Iowa and over time...

Alot of undecided ...split it three ways...and have Kerry and Clark go "toe to toe"...it shoudl be great
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DaisyUCSB Donating Member (455 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-20-04 03:06 PM
Original message
more like a 29 state war
if it goes until March 9th it's a 33 state war
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HFishbine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-20-04 03:06 PM
Response to Original message
12. Looks good for Dean
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DoveTurnedHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-20-04 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. Never Mind
Edited on Tue Jan-20-04 03:09 PM by DoveTurnedHawk
I found it, thanks. It's a little confusing.

DTH
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Eurobabe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-20-04 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #12
17. link?
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HFishbine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-20-04 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #17
48. Link
When one posts a link to an image on DU the image is displayed, not the link. To view the URL of an image, right click on it and select properties (Windows. Not sure how to do that on a Mac).
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TacticalPeek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-20-04 03:09 PM
Response to Original message
15. Polls. Is this one of the times they are about right?
Or is this one of the times they are about like two weeks ago?

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sleipnir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-20-04 03:09 PM
Response to Original message
16. Confirms Edwards' Iowa 2nd as an amolay...
I've said it before, I'll say it again until I'm proven right, Edwards performance last night was a freak storm that won't be repeated outside of the 12 southern states. Don't know what happened, but I hesitate to say that the odd way Iowa conducts caucus' probably contributed to Edwards' 2nd. It won't ever happen in an actual sealed, private vote.
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K8-EEE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-20-04 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. I Don't Think It Confirms Anything...
I wish people would stop drawing so many conclusions from these polls...not only Iowa but most Prez primaries in the past prove they are not very good indicators. It could all change this week. I like Edwards and Clark so I am hoping that is the case!

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GalleryGod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-20-04 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #20
30. NH Tracking in '92 had Clinton's "Bouceback" on the nose...
It's just that the cognoscenti didn't want to "believe" the tracking.
Watch "The War Room"...Team Clinton were glum-but-knew Clinton was coming "back off the floor" like a Champ...Georgie Steph-dismal as usual -thought they needed 48 more hours. Carville? "Bullshit! Let's do it!"

So-the Polls are pretty good sometimes..especially in New Hamp.

Out of the lounge & behind the lectern,:hangover:
Talkin' Iowa, New Hampshire, and the Late Nite with Howard Dean Show:wtf:
G.G.:smoke:
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jenk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-20-04 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #16
22. Edwards beat Dean by 14pts!
I say he would beat him in a private vote as well.

Gephardt dropping out also helps Edwards, since most of the Gep people went to Edwards last night. But even without them, Edwards wins 2nd.
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TacticalPeek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-20-04 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #22
28. Edwards' PCT exceeds Dean's and Gep's combined.
With record turnout yesterday, you'd have to blame Edwards for electoral appeal.

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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-20-04 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #16
40. I don't know what an "amolay" is, but I'm guessing it's something great!
I hope he gets amolayed all the way to the white house.
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isbister Donating Member (902 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-20-04 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #16
57. I think the results of this poll
is showing the pre-election bounce Kerry got from the polls in Iowa. This NH polll is from before the Iowa election.
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LoneStarLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-20-04 03:12 PM
Response to Original message
18. Kerry Has Cut In, But Can He Maintain It Over the Week?
I figured that Kerry would cut into some of Clark's support in New Hampshire after that Iowa showing. What I think is of specific interest will be to see if Kerry can maintain that percentage as the week goes by while voters get a good head-to-head look at all the candidates doing their thing.

In looking at the numbers above it looks like Dean fell hard with a lot of his folks going from support to undecided. It's that large undecided bulge that really piques my interest; talk about a wide-open race!
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GalleryGod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-20-04 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #18
27. Good Analysis on the Undecided "Shift" Huge Shift!
Watch "Go,Johnny,Go!" Edwards!

Your Man in the Faculty lounge, Talkin' Nut-tin' But Primaries!
Hey! It's in the Damned Syllabus!:think:
G.G.:smoke:
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-20-04 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #18
50. This poll was taken before the Iowa vote
so your analysis is based on false premises. Also, if you read the reports at ARG (http://www.americanresearchgroup.com/nhpoll/demtrack/) Dean's support is mostly holding and the big movement is from Clark to Kerry. Again, just to be clear, this is before the Iowa vote.
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Snivi Yllom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-20-04 03:15 PM
Response to Original message
21. I think we will see Clark drop
If Kerry surges, his support will come from Clark, not Dean.
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Joe the Revelator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-20-04 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. Saying Clark is going to drop out after NH..
is just as wrong as saying that Dean is going to. Both of them have enough money and enoough drive to at least take this thing into the south.
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returnable Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-20-04 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #21
26. Maybe. Maybe not.
"If Kerry surges, his support will come from Clark, not Dean."

As we saw in Iowa, Kerry can cut pretty deep into Dean's support, as well :hi:

I think a lot of folks have overestimated the extent of Dean's "strong" support.



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GalleryGod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-20-04 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #21
32. No Praying Aloud, Allowed!
:think: :silly: :freak:
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oasis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-20-04 03:20 PM
Response to Original message
25. Kerry will continue to surge because he has a positive message which
outlines a sensible program for moving America forward. That's what people want to hear from their candidates.
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GalleryGod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-20-04 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #25
37. I've Watched Big John for 32 Winters,now...
Iowa was "typical"!
Don't think so...ask WILLIAM WELD:wow:

G.G.:grr:
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-20-04 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #37
45. Exactly. Kerry is one HELLUVA poker player.
BushInc. is ashaking in their boots.

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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-20-04 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #45
51. Oh you've got that right
Sssshhh....
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mot78 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-20-04 03:27 PM
Response to Original message
31. Thought Edwards would get a bounce from this
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GalleryGod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-20-04 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #31
35. It'll Come! Patience,Grass-hopper!
Dean Needs 30+% Desperately,otherwise the
"Go,Johnny,Go!" EDWARDS Express will pancake him in South Carolina!

G.G.:smoke:
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spooky3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-20-04 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #35
59. it's too bad he doesn't have 2 weeks or more in NH
Edwards had not spent much time there because it is the backyard of so many candidates, but changed plans Sunday or Monday when things were looking so good in Iowa. So the polls for me don't give a very clear picture of where things stand.
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-20-04 03:29 PM
Response to Original message
34. If we finish third and above 15%, we'll be fine
going into the other states. Kery's support I don't think will keep transferring. We will see.
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-20-04 03:42 PM
Response to Original message
38. In other words,
this is just like Iowa in that it could go to any of the top contenders.

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Jerseycoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-20-04 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #38
41. Yep
It's a mishmosh.
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Nicholas_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-20-04 03:43 PM
Response to Original message
39. Yes
Dean was hanging up in the high twenties in this poll until today, and I have seen several other NH newspaper polls that are reflecting the same drop of around 4 or 5 points for Dean in New Hampshire with Kerry now in 2nd place. He has already moved up to second place in the ARG poll. overtaking Clark.

MS NBC is doing an analysis of the exit polling from Iowa as more come in, and a much larger than anticipated reason for people dropping Dean at the last minute among people older than 50, baby boomers and older was based on Deans draft record and his ski summer afterwards. The article about this is reposted on the Kerry site, and I havn't had time to get the MS NBC URL for it.
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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-20-04 04:11 PM
Response to Original message
44. Clark in the changing picture.
I read a post here about whether a poll like this indicates that Clark made a strategic error in not competing in Iowa, and I still say no. I started a thread on this yesterday before the results came in, and there were some interesting observations others posted there that still hold water.

Here is the link to that now buried thread: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=135639&mesg_id=135639

But to keep the discussion on a current thread, I will copy my opening statement off that thread below, under these Tuesday afternoon comments. Because of Clark, Kerry became a viable candidate again (see reasons below). Some of Clark's surge over the last 3 weeks came from discouraged Kerry backers. Even before the results came in from Iowa, many of those former Kerry backers were feeling a lot more optimistic, hearing about Kerry's momentum in Iowa over the last several week. Hence this poll already reflects a movement back to Kerry from Clark on the part of some essentially Kerry supporters in NH. It in many ways anticipated the Iowa results in that regard. What it did not anticipate was Dean's very poor showing as a distant third. I think few expected the margin of Dean's defeat last night, I certainly didn't. It could not predict either the current round of negative spin swirling around Dean's concession speech.

So now, for the first time really, there is a chance that some of Dean's previously Hard core support in New Hampshire will move away from him. That is the variable I did not factor into my below reposted comments below. I still hold that Clark does not have to beat Kerry, or come very close to him in New Hampshire. Clark does not have to come in second either. Clark does have to come in above Edwards however. If Clark beats Edwards convincingly, some of Edwards southern leaning support may peal away from Edwards. The fight will leave Kerry's New England backyard. Clark is fully loaded to compete on more neutral terrain. This should be interesting. Here's that thread. See how it holds up in the light of the day after:

"In the excitement and glare of our mutual Iowa moment, there are a few observations that I believe are called for regarding the wisdom, or lack of it, of Clark skipping Iowa, and the consequences for his campaign.

!) Clark did not make a tactical mistake in not competing in Iowa. The correct statement is that Clark was at a tactical disadvantage in not being able to adequately compete in both Iowa and NH due to his very late entry. Clark had a total of four months to assemble a staff, organize his campaign, introduce himself to voters, ramp up fund raising, develop solid position papers on many issues that elected officials already had their political aids help them prepare, and do retail campaigning in at least one of those two states. Clark played his hand extremely well. Obviously it would have been far preferable for him to run solid campaigns in both states. He couldn't. The campaign operation Clark now has could well have done so, but he did not have that capacity 3 months back.

2) Clark has gotten incredible attention for his campaign by moving up from 6% or so to 20% or so in NH. That shows in the National polling numbers also. The entire "Clark is a flavor of the month, he is an armature who will wilt under campaign pressure" line of attack has been rebutted and laid to rest. Now Clark is discussed as a very viable candidate whose positions actions, and prospects are taken seriously. Had he been mired in the middle of the pack in two states likely none of that would have happened, except perhaps for the prediction that he was a "flavor of the month".

3) By showing strong movement up in NH, Clark established that Dean was not the only Democrat capable of exciting voters. During that period all of the other campaigns were either stagnant or collapsing. With Gore's endorsement, Dean's bandwagon might have become unstoppable had no other candidate shown promise of being able to compete with Dean during those critical weeks. Clark's strategy enabled him to slow Dean's bandwagon when no one else was doing so. Clark helped both himself and the other candidates by doing so. He would rather have helped himself only, but you can't always get what you want. At least now there is still a race going on for Clark to potentially win.

4) The earlier projections and assessments about what Clark needed to accomplish in NH have changed with changing circumstances. Previously the question was, what must Clark achieve in NH that will position him to continue the fight against a relentlessly effective Howard Dean campaign that was wearing the aura of virtually preordained nominee? Either Kerry, Edwards, and/or Gephardt will "bloody" Dean in Iowa, or they won't. If they don't, they will lose luster for having failed to do so, and Clark will regain momentum because, not having competed in Iowa, Clark can not fail in that regard. If one or more of those men do hobble Dean, then the race we will subsequently be looking at is far different than the one everyone anticipated only a few weeks back. It would be unlikely to end in a quick knockout for anyone. Clark has the resources and national organization needed for a prolonged competition.

5) Assuming for the moment that Dean's momentum is slowed by Iowa's results, where does that leave Clark? What will he need to accomplish in NH, and how likely is it that he can? The most important thing to keep in mind is that Iowa for the most part becomes a foot note to history as soon as NH's results are in. Iowa is important because it helps set the stage for the contests that follow, but Iowa is small and somewhat quirky, and everyone knows it. A very small group of Democrats actually participate in Iowa's caucus. Momentum anyone achieves coming out of Iowa instantly dissipates, if that momentum is lost in New Hampshire. So lets say Edwards or Kerry has a strong showing in Iowa, the question then becomes, can they follow it up?

For Edwards it will be very hard for him to explain away coming in behind Clark in New Hampshire should that in fact happen. Even if Edwards moves up in New Hampshire, building off a good showing in Iowa, the fact is Edwards did not have to face Clark in Iowa, and everyone knows it. Should Clark beat Edwards in New Hampshire people will revisit the Iowa results and conclude that Edwards was pulling votes there that otherwise would have gone to Clark had Clark contested the state. Edwards needs to finish ahead of Clark in NH, if Clark prevents that Clark prevails in their contest. Should Kerry win in Iowa, that likely sets Kerry up to come in first or second in New Hampshire, pumping new energy into his campaign, but not inevitability. Kerry campaigned long and hard in his neighboring state. Unlike Edwards, Clark is not required to beat Kerry in order to remain highly viable. Clark however NEEDS to beat everyone other than Dean and Edwards to retain some, most, or all of his momentum heading into the following week's contests.

That in many ways brings us back to square one for Clark. He has to finish third or higher in New Hampshire. Second or higher would be great, but not necessary. Contests held during the following couple of weeks will include many that Clark is well positioned in, with Clark having ample resources available there to ratchet up his efforts. In closing, the last point that many are missing is:

6) Clark did NOT compete in Iowa, get it? That means some, certainly not all but some, of the surging support other candidates in Iowa are receiving at Dean's expense comes from voters who otherwise would have chosen Clark had Clark competed there also. That means those same men will now have to fight to keep those votes from reverting back to Clark in all the subsequent contests where Clark is in fact competing. The perceived popularity of all the candidates in Iowa to some extent is inflated, because they are not facing one of their leading opponents, Clark, in that contest.

We have not yet begun to fight."






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Justice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-20-04 04:25 PM
Response to Original message
49. This is a Different Poll - Not the ARG
which yesterday had slightly different numbers.

Correct?
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-20-04 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #49
52. Correct. This one looks much better for Kerry.
Or worse for Dean, depending on your perspective.
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NewYorkerfromMass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-20-04 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #52
54. It's a small daily sample of 200 voters
but the overall trends look good for Kerry (as they should).
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-20-04 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #54
56. Is this the rolling average we are looking at or the daily?
They haven't laid out the info in a very accessible manner.

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jsw_81 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-20-04 06:33 PM
Response to Original message
55. Wow
Dean is collapsing. If Kerry takes New Hampshire, he's going to be our nominee.
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