Kerry and Edwards didn't say a thing

[pnziii]

to stop the war when it counted.
They both voted to go to war based on bogus info. And yes I knew it was bogus when Powell presented it to the UN.
When it counted they did nothing. Why do people think now they will do the right thing. Actions speak louder than words.

Both Kerry and Edwards voted FOR the Patiot Act.
Now they are telling us they are different than Bush. If they are why did they vote to go to WAR? Why did they vote FOR the Patiot act.

Look at their voting records. It's easy to say you're different than Bush, but harder to prove it.

[Lostmessage]

1. Kerry & Edwards were lied to

I will back anyone in our party that is up against the unelected Bush.

[maddezmom]

6. they were duped by bush&co

many Americans were originally duped as well.

[HFishbine]

25. Edwards insists he wasn't mislead

Edwards may have been lied to, but he insists he would have gone to war anyway.
---------


MATTHEWS: Let me ask you about-Since you did support the resolution and you did support that ultimate solution to go into combat and to take over that government and occupy that country. Do you think that you, as a United States Senator, got the straight story from the Bush administration on this war? On the need for the war? Did you get the straight story?

EDWARDS: Well, the first thing I should say is I take responsibility for my vote. Period. And I did what I did based upon a belief, Chris, that Saddam Hussein’s potential for getting nuclear capability was what created the threat. That was always the focus of my concern. Still is the focus of my concern.

So did I get misled? No. I didn’t get misled.



http://msnbc.msn.com/id/3131295/

[meegbear]

2. So you're supporting Sharton then?

[Uzybone]

8. Good point

anyone not supporting Kuchinich or Sharton should shut the hell up about IWR. All the others voted for or supported similar legislation.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

21. I agree 100%

talk *is* cheap

[TLM]

31. Kucinich supports Edwards.... so he supports the war

Kucinich is just another DC insider and Sharpton is just in this for the attention.


Dean is the only one who represents a change from the DC insider status quo.


Dean was the one who first stood up against the war, and he supported BL, which had more restrictions and sticter standards and limits for action in Iraq. Dean did not support the IWR that Kerry and Edwards voted for.

[cthrumatrix]

3. Clark and Dean will bring this up....you watch

[goodhue]

12. yes but

The real issue is not the past but the present occupation. We must join the call to bring our troops home now.
http://www.bringthemhomenow.org/

Arguing about the past is a loosing strategy which Clark and Dean do at their own risk. It is particularly in effective if their policy on current occupation is no different from Kerry or Edwards.

[HFishbine]

26. Backwards

You've got it backwards. If candidates have similar positions on what to do now that we are in Iraq, then their positions on going to war in the first place matter a great deal. A pre-war position is an indicator of the degree of good judgement and an indicator of the candidate's world-view.

[library_max]

33. Or possibly, just possibly

an indication of whether or not the candidate was a member of Congress when the IWR was voted on.

[JI7]

4. there are many things other than patriot act and IWR

most don't care about those issues that much. and certainly not as a top issue. that's why about 80 percent voted for those who did vote for those things even though majority of the voters were anti war. even kucinich wanted edwards to do better than dean.

[Monte Carlo]

5. The threat of force is what kept Saddam contained during Clinton...

... and that concern continued into Bush's Administration. He abused that fact for his own ends, and made Congress re-affirm that threat under his terms. Kerry and Edwards could not simply ignore the certain threat of Saddam Hussein (which he was) out of fear of a then-uncertain threat of the POTUS.

[Monte Carlo]

10. And Kerry said plenty about his concerns about Bush...

... during the leadup to the vote. Many people at the time, though, didn't want to hear it.

[Sandpiper]

34. Kerry was a moral coward when it counted

"And Kerry said plenty about his concerns about Bush during the leadup to the vote. Many people at the time, though, didn't want to hear it.

But when it was time to stand up and be counted, Kerry did the politically safe thing and voted for the IWR. His act was the act of a moral coward who chose to do the popular thing rather than right thing.

What makes it even more inexcusable is that this guy is a Vietnam vet. Shame on you Senator Kerry.

[Monte Carlo]

35. You dismiss him too easily.

He did not vote 'yes' because it was the popular thing. He voted 'yes' because he had to. This was more than about Bush and his little adventure. It was about pre-existing commitments, and the weight of the world on one's shoulders.

[sandnsea]

Clark said sanctions were crumbling

That's what he, himself, said in his testimony to congress in Sept 2002. He said Saddam had bio/chem weapons and was likely seeking nuclear weapons. Why is he so surprised now that people listened to him.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

7. I guess if you keep pushing that, your candidate will lose in NH as well.

It's a losing argument because the American people are smart enough to recognize what an oversimplification it is.

[underpants]

9. Edwards wrote the Patriot Act (I believe)

Making their voting record only the war as your litmus test is your perogative but not mine. I was against the war too but that is not the only standard by which I support or don't support someone (BTW I haven't 100% made up my mind).

IF you want what is their excuse it is this (or should be) the vote on the IWR was denounced by Byrd and others as giving away too much power, I agree with that statement. However the House and the Senate were voting to give W their support when he went to the UN. The White House told Congress that this was not a carte blanche to go to war but that it was their support to go to the UN. This is the MO often repeated by W&Co. they limit debate and the chance for the public to contact their reps on issues AND say that vaguely written legislation means this or that, as soon as it is passed they changed their tune. They did this with the UN too-Negroponte ran around reassuring everyone that there was no "automaticity" in 1441 but as soon as those rockets were found (later destroyed by Saddam) W&Co. said it was justification for war.

The problem is that this excuse is not shrinkable into soundbites.

I will also say this, their voting for the war will be a plus if the get the nomination. They will have the ability to point out the above and not frighten the public into thinking they might drop the whole thing, "Bring the troops home" is what many people think that means not getting someone else to man the guardposts.

[AP]

20. Elizabeth Edwards blogged that her husband did not author any part of PA

so you can correct your misapprehension.

[underpants]

23. okay good

Thanks

[Cocoa]

11. you're in a small minority, I think

most people see this as Bush's war, not Congress's.

I also don't think Dean's antiwar position is any more credible to most people as it is to me. I think his position was just positioning, and that looks very bad for such a serious issue.

[goodhue]

15. yes

Very much just looks like positioning.
If not, then he should be consistent and demand to bring out troops home now!

http://www.bringthemhomenow.org/

[cthrumatrix]

13. a vote for these two is more of the above....

[Jerseycoa]

14. Kerry and Edwards supporters have been saying

And last night proves it true. Voters UNDERSTAND. This is because they feel duped, too.

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[AP]

17. Voters said even a no vote wouldn't have stopped Bush. They're right.

They had an up or down vote on a dumb pill that posterity would have guaged as being a vote for protecting Americans, and they voted the only way they made sense.

If you think they're running so that America can do more stupid shit like invade countries with slight pretext, then you should probably do some more studying before posting.

[Virgil]

18. Kucinich voted against the war resolution

He also is calling to cut the bloated military budget, that when you add on the $80 billion fro the VA, that is much as the entire rest of the world.

DK voted against the Patriot Act and what is now called its extension that was signed the Saturday after they yanked Sadam out of the hole they held him prisoner in.

DK is for ending NAFTA and US membership in the WTO as it is a tool of industry and helps them while it hurts the country.

He is for a cabinet level position for a Department of Peace. He is for calling in the UN so that the US can get out of Iraq without precipiting a civil war.

He is also for universal health care. The for-profit system is broken in medicine.

DK is the man. That is why he is shunned by the media. I am totally excited for his message and I feel strongly he is sincere in everything he says and wants a more perfect union which is not relevant under the PNAC cabal.

[sangha]

Don't stop shouting that from every rooftop!!!!

It really worked for Dean

[AP]

24. heh heh

:)

[sandnsea]

19. Powell????

What are you talking about? The vote happened 5 months before that. Kerry gave a speech just days before Powell's presentation calling on Bush to stop his rush to war and let the inspections continue. The inspections needed to continue, the process needed to continue. War wasn't necessary at that time and John Kerry said so. And, by the way, maybe he couldn't come out against that war more because he was in the hospital getting cancer surgery.

[tjdee]

22. Well....Iowans bought it anyway.

I won't even bother mentioning that there is more to the country's ills than the Patriot Act and Iraq.

The idea on DU that John Kerry--the most liberal guy around-- is not that different from Bush is AMAZING. In favor of Howard Dean no less.

John Kerry has been proving for over 20 years that he's different from Bush--the last year doesn't change that at all.

And I'm not Kerry's biggest fan by any estimation.

[DaisyUCSB]

27. Is being anti-war all that mattters to you?

Dean has never said he wouldn't have voted for the patriot act

So I don't know why you include that in your bash against Kerry and Edwards

Voting no on the resolution wouldn't have been anything to stop the war either

My problem with the Dean movement is that it just seems to be the anti-war movement, politicized. Basically a single issue candidacy. You can talk about the Patriot Act, but the fact is Dean supports it in a nuanced way, which is really no better than voting for it

[Pallas180]

28. Edwards represents one very IMPORTANT thing in America:

the bush machine is trying to shut down the courts to the average man -
no more lawsuits against GE for polluting the waters and the land, no
more lawsuits against gun manufactureres, no more lawsuits against doctors who cut off the wrong leg, against HMO's who will not pay for
your treatment of cancer

That's total relinquishment of consumer/public rights to the corporate
fascist state.

Edwards stands between that happening to American law and justice.

I like him a lot, although I leaned toward Dean.

Either of them is fine with me. One can straighten out the medical system and return it to sanity.

The other can block the supremes and the federal courts from closing the
doors of the courts to the average Joe in the streets.

Personally, I'd like to see the two of them make it. Pres and Veep
or Vice Versa.

[polpilot]

29. Kerry MTP '03: "George Bush is a good man trying to do good things"

Dean '04...

[TLM]

30. Yeah but they're so bland and non-threatening...

they will never get angry and will lose to bush in a nice respectable way.

Nothing americans like more than a boring and bland democrat.

[Snivi Yllom]

32. I wish they would be proud of their votes and show conviction

Instead of trying to hide behind it and invent explanations. Lieberman should be a Republican, but at least he has principles and stuck to his conviction. Edwards and Kerry are trying to have it both ways.

[bigtree]

36. This is a tactic that will work against Gov. Dean

especially now that Congress is back. You see, a sizable number voted as Sen. Kerry and Sen. Edwards did. For the war. They are a bit miffed at the governor for labeling them as pro-war because of their vote. Many made that decision with the best of intentions for their country and almost all of them feel they were duped by this president and his cabal of spooks with 'detailed' presentations of large stashes of chemical and biological weaponry, and nuclear capabilities that Saddam was poised to release upon the region and the world. Powell went before the U.N. with the same presentation and the world was misled. Most Americans initially supported the war. A majority polled still give the president high marks for his handling of foreign policy. Therefore, most Americans were duped by this administration.

My point is that these folks, who rightfully expected the president to tell the truth when committing our men and women to war, are not stupid or inept. They were betrayed by this president, who launched a premeditated assault on Iraq, outside of any mandate from Congress or the American people; outside of any mandate from the international body whose 1441 resolution forms the basis for Bush's justification for war.

Most Americans who initally believed the president won't countenance anyone blaming them for Bush's betrayal. They will likely recognize the explanations of those in Congress who voted to believe the president as kin to their own ambivalent support at the time of the vote. They share the sense of betrayal.

The 'Blame the Democrats First' strategy that Gov. Dean and others have employed will alienate those who stood with Sen. Kerry and Sen. Edwards at the time. To brand Sen. Kerry and Sen. Edwards as inept is a slap at the majority of Americans who agreed with their vote at that time.

Gov. Dean feels that in his opposition to the invasion, that he was smarter than the majority of Americans. Good for him. Don't be surprised though, as those of us who weren't as smart as the governor, unite behind someone who may be more understanding of the betrayed trust we reluctantly, tragically, placed in the president's word.

As for the Patriot Act:

Most of the Patriot act amends existing federal statutes that were targeted by conservatives before the 9-11 terrorist attacks. (Like the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, which was enacted in the wake of FBI surveillance of U.S. citizens in the '60's and the '70's) This national security intelligence tool is now being recklessly manipulated in the administration's zeal to prosecute their cynical "war on terrorism."

The FISA was sponsored in the ‘60's by Sen. Edward Kennedy and others in an attempt to reign in warrantless surveillance. But the FBI and the NSA have used the act to set up a secret courts and have perverted the act to conduct surveillance for domestic criminal investigations in addition to their foreign counterintelligence probes.

The FISA court and the Court of Review authorize government wiretaps in foreign intelligence investigations. Under FISA, all hearings and decisions are conducted in secret. The government is normally the only party to FISA proceedings and the only party that can appeal to the Supreme Court.

In an appeal, the ACLU argued that,"These fundamental issues should not be finally by courts that sit in secret, do not ordinarily publish their decisions, and allow only the government to appear before them."

The ACLU and its supporters have asserted that some of their members and many other Americans are currently subject to illegal surveillance, noting that the FBI has already targeted its members in numerous other ways. Under the FISA statute, a U.S. citizen may be subject to a FISC surveillance order for political statements and views that are determined to be unpopular by the secret Court of Review.

So this administration has used the Patriot Act, and the FISA to subvert the constitution and evicerate rights, far outside of the mandate of Congress; far outside of their intentions expressed in the legislation. It happens. Sometimes presidents exceed the authority given to them by Congress.

Kennedy's not a dupe for passing the FISA. The other Democrats aren't dupes for expecting the Patriot Act to be used without recrimination or guile.

[cindyw]

37. Can you tell me "when it counted". Also, what could they have done to stop

the war. I think you give them more power than they have.