We are not the "Majority"...

[kentuck]

First of all, let's be honest with ourselves. We are the minority. We do not control any branch of government and we are losing ground each and every day. Denial will only get you more denial. It was not the Diebold or ESS machines - even though they should not be trusted. That is only an excuse.

We are the minority but that does not mean it has to be that way forever. And because we were once the majority does not necessarily mean that we will be the majority again. We will have to work at it. We will have to change our present way of doing things. That means we may have to change leadership and strategy.

[dave123williams]

1. Bah; I'm moving to New Zealand...goverened by the sane.

[GOPBasher]

6. US policies affect everyone in the world.

It might be more comfortable there, but can you do us a favor and stay involved in our politics here? Can you remain a citizen, vote on an absentee ballot, maybe even donate? Remember, the US policies affect everyone in every country. We can't run away from it, even if we move. And the more of us who move, the more right wing this country will be.

[dave123williams]

11. Yeah; well, it'd be highly unlikely that I'd get locked up for dissenting.

I can't say the same here; we're on a slippery slope right now. People think that what happened in Germany can't happen here; they're wrong.

[GOPBasher]

12. Yeah, I'm scared of that, too, but you can still vote with absentee ballot

Can't you? Please?

[The Gigmeister]

30. Name on person who's been "Locked up for dissenting"?

And please don't disrespect the 6 million Jews and countless other victims of Hitler's Germany. We're not anywhere even close to that and anyone with any sense KNOWS that!!

Please?

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[robcon]

41. Name calling... "moron" and "idiot"

undermines whatever limited value your opinion has, dave123williams.

The examples you showed - of military people who apparently abandoned their posts/refused to follow orders - has nothing whatsoever to do with dissent.

edit:spell

[dave123williams]

46. You think not? Why, then, did they abandon their posts?

Think it might have something to do with their disagreement with the policy; it's not dissent in action? Sorry about the 'idiot' thing, but if the shoe fits...

[robcon]

49. It could be disagreement with policy....

or dislike of the military

or dislike of their superiors in the military

or dislike or fear of the task they were told to do

or a change of mind - don't weant to be a soldier any more.

Or it could be something else. The idea that it was "dissent" is a stretch.

[knight_of_the_star]

57. Leonard Peltier

The man is still in prison and all the evidence levelled against him was bogus.

[KSAtheist]

59. Nonsense.

I deplore the FBIs tactics, but to suggest that Peltier's hands were clean is a gross misreading of the facts.

[EGisJUICE]

60. Schenck

Ever heard of ? It's the case where the Supreme Court upheld the "espionage" conviction of a lower court that imprisoned Schneck for this pamplet during WW1, upholding the lower court ruling, the Supreme Court said that saying anything that was insubordinate twoard the government and didn't support them (in this case by speaking against the draft) during a time of war was not protected by the 1st amendment, and that the lower courts conviction of "espionage" for Schneck because of his pamphlet was just. His pamplet against the draft which is dissent at it's finest got Charles Schenck locked up and the Supreme Court said that it was just. They had to lie about it to lock Schenck up illegally for dissent. So there's one person that has been locked up for dissent. -

Schenck's pamphlet:

Assert Your Rights

The Socialist Party says that any individual or officers of the law intrusted with the administration of conscription regulations violate the provisions of the United States Constitution, the supreme law of the land, when they refuse to recognize your right to assert your opposition to the draft.

In exempting clergymen and members of the Society of Friends (popularly called Quakers) from active military service the examination boards have discriminated against you.

If you do not assert and support your rights you are helping to "deny or disparage rights" which it is the solemn duty of all citizens and residents of the United States to retain.

In lending tacit or silent consent to the conscription law, in neglecting to assert your rights, you are (whether knowingly or not) helping to condone and support a most infamous and insidious conspiracy to abridge and destroy the sacred and cherished rights of a free people. You are a citizen: not a subject! You delegate your power to the officers of the law to be used for your good and welfare, not against you.

They are your servants; not your masters. Their wages come from the expenses of government which you pay. Will you allow them to unjustly rule you?

No power was delegated to send our citizens away to foreign shores to shoot up the people of other lands, no matter what may be their internal or international disputes.

To draw this country into the horrors of the present war in Europe, to force the youth of our land into the shambles and bloody trenches of war crazy nations, would be a crime the magnitude of which defies description. Words could not express the condemnation such cold-blooded ruthlessness deserves.

Will you stand idly by and see the Moloch of Militarism reach forth across the sea and fasten its tentacles upon this continent? Are you willing to submit to the degradation of having the Constitution of the United States treated as a "mere scrap of paper"?

No specious or plausible pleas about a "war for democracy" can becloud the issue. Democracy can not be shot into a nation. It must come spontaneously and purely from within.

Democracy must come through liberal education. Upholders of military ideas are unfit teachers.

To advocate the persecution of other peoples through the prosecution of war is an insult to every good and wholesome American tradition.

You are responsible. You must do your share to maintain, support, and uphold the rights of the people of this country.

In this world crisis where do you stand? Are you with the forces of liberty and light or war and darkness?

[Debs]

67. If we are talking historically then all doubts are gone

My nicknamesake Eugene Debs went to prison for years for making an antiwar speech. So if you are not talking about right now there is no longer any arguement whatsoever

[Debs]

66. Plenty of people have been locked up for dissenting

And while none of these people did long sentences lets not pretend no one has been locked up for dissenting. I have read numerous reports of people with anti Bush signs right next to pro Bush signs that were told to leave and when they refused were arrested. The two people with an anti war shirt at a Bush rally in North Carolina were arrested. So we arent talking about concentration camps here but people have indisputably been locked up for dissenting

[foo_bar]

63. unless you're declared an "enemy combatant", of course

in which case your citizenship is immaterial. As an added bonus you wouldn't get a trial date.

[Capn Sunshine]

2. That's a pretty large leap you're making

Since when do we HAVE leadership and strategy?

[jarab]

3. You'll have to forgive some of us ...

It's been so long since we were dug so deeply into this minority role, we have forgotten how to act.
I'd say some of us will take a while longer to adjust to the reality of the situation. Some will never. I'd agree the sooner we come to the realization you mention the quicker we get our feet under us and begin functioning as the minority we now are.
...O...

[AndyTiedye]

4. Are We?

A majority thinks the war in Iraq was a bad idea.
A majority supports a woman's right to choose.
A majority support the separation of Church and State.
A majority doesn't want Social Security messed with.
A majority doesn't approve of Boosh**'s economic policies.

Seems to me that we're in the majority on all the major issues.
Yet we "lost". Something is terribly wrong with this picture.

[goclark]

10. We,the majority ,know that it was a ROVE TRICK

When will we ever learn.

[lakelly]

15. Can I hear an Amen!!

I'm totally with you on this. I don't know why others cant seem to recognize the hypocrisy of "You are in the minority but your opinions and positions are not" BS.

[RaleighNCDUer]

5. I refuse to believe that.

We may be in minority positions in the government, but that is only because of the votes (or fraud, if you will) of a slightly larger minority.

I believe that the majority of Americans want peace.
I believe that the majority of Americans want the respect of the international community.
I believe that the majority of Americans want the respect of their fellow citizens.
I believe that the majority of Americans want financial security.
I believe that the majority of Americans want decent jobs at sustainable wages.
I believe that the majority of Americans want quality educations.
I believe that the majority of Americans want affordable health care.
I believe that the majority of Americans want their votes to count.
I believe that the majority of Americans want a separation between the state and religion, in order to protect them both.
I believe that the majority of Americans want abortions to be safe, legal, and rare.
I believe that the majority of Americans want reasonable restrictions on guns.
I believe that the majority of Americans want the poor to be fed and sheltered.
I believe that the majority of Americans want the social security that we were promised, even if a little tweaking becomes necessary.

There are many more things I believe the majority of American want, and overwhelming corporate power and greed, suspect elections, and wars of choice are none of them.

The only thing we need to change is how to get our beliefs out there. We are the majority, if we can only convince the most of us to stand for our beliefs. We don't need to change our strategy, we need to have one in the first place. We don't need to change our leaders so much as to tell our leaders to actually lead.

We are the majority.

[illbill]

8. Agreed.

Great reply.

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bobbyboucher]

19. Speak for yourself.

I just can't wait until you can start a thread.

[RavenSaysNeverMore]

20. I am speaking for the myself

Why should I, a law abiding citizen not be allowed to protect myself and family from those that would rob or harm us? Do you have an answer to my question or just another vapid guess at what my next post will be?

[Hephaistos]

24. I wonder what the Secret Service thinks about this

Why should I, a law abiding citizen not be allowed to protect myself and family from those that would rob or harm us?

Doesn't this amount to a threat against the president and various ranking members of congress?

Remember, as Ari said, be careful what you say, be careful what you do...

[RavenSaysNeverMore]

27. I hope the SS is non-partisan and logical enough to understand

But I get your ancient Ari message 9 by 9 :-)

[w4rma]

25. You're speaking for me too, Raven. I agree. (nt)

[RavenSaysNeverMore]

26. Thanks.

I am also not one of those that thinks everyone needs a tank or their own nuclear bomb to stop a rape, murder, mugging or other personal harm just to put my stance on file.

[OhioBlue]

35. There are extreme ideas on either side

some repugs want carry/conceal to be okay in bars for crying out loud. I don't want to take away anyone's second amendment rights, but I also realize that the nation was in a much different place than it is now when the bill of rights was written. They did not have the same weapons that we have today. As a liberal, (speaking for myself) I think guns for hunting are okay. If you feel you need a gun in your house to protect yourself, okay - as long as you are responsible and keep it in a place that children cannot access it. Also, I feel there is no argument to be made for the average citizen to have free access to armor piercing ammunition or assault weapons. There is a line and the debate should be where the line is.

[ncrainbowgrrl]

23. You just made me feel so proud to be a democrat.

Thank you.
And thank you for your amazing post.

[Nederland]

48. I agree

...that is what a majority of Americans want.

The problem is that a majority of Americans don't believe that the Democrat party is the one that can deliver on those desires.

[GOPBasher]

7. Do you know it wasn't because of Diebold or ESS machines?

I'm saying this because, although I don't know for sure if the election was stolen, you can't know for sure that it was NOT stolen. These machines can't be verified. That's the problem.

[Stinky The Clown]

9. We are NOT the minority, we're simply not in power

As stated above, we hold the same positions as the majority of our citizenry. What we have lost is being in power. Now I am not minimizing that. Its pretty huge! But we are not the minority.

The party leadership and our consultants may suck, but not our basic beliefs. I for one, am damned sick of losing and our national candidates' penchant for (to paraphrase the line in Casablanca) rounding up the usual consultants.

Our message is muddied to the point of incoherence. We are justifiably seen as the Mommy party.

The overall results from the last election were neither a mandate (for the Chimpus Khan regime) nor a death knell for the Democrats.

Have we work to do?

Duh!

Yeah, we have a shitload of work to do .... starting with retooling our image and getting the fuck away from the DC insiders that have a death grip on our party. We need a clear, "sound bite" message. We need some party discipline and a clear, consistent message.

Coming out of the embarrassment that was the 2004 election cycle, we're very much in disarray. I suppose that's to be expected. The next milestone is the vote for party chair. I think that will be a huge watershed for the party's faithful. I fear more than anything a "more of the same" chair who wants to continue our rightward, appeasing drift.

And the list goes on from there ........

So yeah, we have our problems. But we're not a minority.

[moggie12]

13. I agree with you

If we can get us some smart strategists and run really tough, intelligent, message-thumping campaigns that force Americans to look at what's really going on, we'll have a shot at winning..

[bobbieinok]

37. AND get good speakers on TV and radio.....sure, that'll happen

[okieinpain]

14. voice of sanity. good post.

[rockymountaindem]

16. I disagree.

Having people agree with you and winning elections are two very seperate things. A lot depends on campaigns and how you manage the debate. That's where our problem lies.

[RavenSaysNeverMore]

17. We owned congress for forty years

So we should have forty years of our good will to work with for the next forty years. We kicked their butts and made the rules for that timeframe so why not plan on doing it again?

<speling>

[amjucsc]

21. Regardless of wether or not we are in the majority...

We need to change. I feel that a candidate can win on a Democratic platform, but the manner in which we deliver our message to the American people is inadequate. I feel that an incredible amount of effort put out by a vast horde of volunteers was wasted because the Dems didn't present the American electorate as a whole with a sufficiently compelling message. That must change, and (I mean no disrespect to anyone by this) I think that a great many people here are distracting ourselves from the larger task by telling themselves that Kerry had the election stolen from him.

So, flame away.

[LynnTheDem]

39. We don't need to change; we need a way to get our MESSAGE HEARD.

The majority of Americans who voted for bush were WRONG about what bush supports.

I mean HELLO!

NO ONE IS HEARING US.

THAT is what we must change. NOT our platform.

[mattclearing]

22. Our leaders are unpersuasive.

We need people who actually know what they're up against and what they're fighting for.

Howard Dean comes to mind. Not too many others, though, I'm afraid.

[kodi]

28. could it be that this is the reason a republic exists?

.

[The Gigmeister]

29. Outstanding post!!

Thank you! Thank you!! THANK YOU!!!

We need to move forward, like Senator Kerry has. Personally, I stand with him, not the conspiracy kooks. If there was anything to all of this, Senator Kerry would be standing up and screaming it from the rooftops...Of that, I have no doubt!!

Thank you for the bit of sanity in this sea of whackyness.

[greenohio]

55. "sea of whackyness"

You know, it does seem that way sometimes.

[EVDebs]

31. Right, the majority DID'NT BOTHER TO VOTE. 40 % NON VOTER TURNOUT

In an election that had 60% turnout, that means that 40% didn't vote or had their votes tossed in the circular file somewhere. Bush apparently got 51% of that 60% turnout, or about 30% of the total electorate; Kerry got 49% of that 60% turnout or about 29% of the total electorate. Bush doesn't have anything to call himself a 'majority party' either kentuck.

The dismal performance of our flagship of democracy, which the Middle Easterners are viewing, leads them to think that maybe, just maybe, we're kidding ourselves over here in the US of A. They'd be happy with an elected benevolent dictatorship of mullahs and we were stupid enough to let Chalabi and his clowns con our neocons into believing that wouldn't happen. OOOOOPs.

[dolstein]

33. Since when is 40% a majority ? -- DO THE MATH!!!!!

NT

[EVDebs]

34. I DID ! BUSH GOT 30% Kerry got almost 30% and 40% DIDN'T VOTE

or had their votes circular filed. That's what you get with a 60% voter turnout.

[greenohio]

56. Uhhh, thats called a plurality.

[EVDebs]

68. Exactly. Nobody got a majority of votes when you include

the entire electorate ! Bush has no 'mandate'. In fact, his party controls a minority of the electorate. But the newspapers trumpet

Bush 51% Kerry 49% being careful not to mention that 60% of voters turned out with 40% not voting or those votes being shitcanned.

[greenohio]

32. Depends on your definition of we.

If "we" refers to a big tent Democratic party, then I think we can muster a majority. If "we" refers to the "little tent", "kick people out who don't fight hard enough" or "kick people out who don't agree with with the true blue", then you are correct....we won't ever be a majority.

[LynnTheDem]

36. We ARE the MAJORITY.

The MINORITY that owns the entire US government and most the US State Media WANT you to feel like you're nothing but an insignificant irrelevant minority.

BUT WE ARE NOT A MINORITY. DON'T LET THEM BE OUR ABUSER!

Just like men who belittle their spouses until the spouses BELIEVE they're nothing, THAT is EXACTLY what the MINORITY running this country are trying to do to us, the MAJORITY.

The MAJORITY of Americans OPPOSED bush's unilateral invasion of Iraq. America only shifted to a majority (54%) approval AFTER the actual invasion began.

The MAJORITY of Americans now say the invasion of Iraq was the WRONG thing to do.

The MAJORITY of the populations of every nation on this planet OPPOSED bush's invasion of Iraq. NOT ONE NATION in the entire world had a population majority that supported bush's invasion of Iraq.

The MAJORITY of Americans say bush is taking this country in the WRONG direction.

The MAJORITY of Americans DISAPPROVE of bush's handling of Iraq.

The MAJORITY of Americans DISAPPROVE of bush's handling of the economy.

The MAJORITY of Americans DISAPPROVE of bush's handling of the environment.

The MAJORITY of Americans DISAPPROVE of bush. His "job approval" is a NEGATIVE. Again.

The MAJORITY of Americans DO NOT APPROVE of "preventive strikes".

The MAJORITY of Americans DO NOT APPROVE of US unilateral wars.

The MAJORITY of Americans DO NOT APPROVE of unilateral invasions for "humanitarian interventions".

The MAJORITY of Americans INCORRECTLY BELIEVE bush supports issues that he in fact does not support.

We are a minority in the US Government.

We are a minority in the US State Media.

But when it comes to the issues, WE ARE THE MAJORITY.

[sampsonblk]

58. We ARE the MAJORITY!

Amen. Now if our party "leaders" would only figure that out.

They are the ones kicking our asses, not the Repubs.

[RandomKoolzip]

38. I agree, with two caveats:

1. The true story here is that most Americans agree with most planks on the liberal platform, but the word itself has been so demonized that a sizable portion of people in the above mentioned group will not identify themselves as liberal; the word "Democrat" is also about to fall into this sinkhole.

2. Changing leadership to adapt to a more "center-right" culture will not work. Our leaders need to stick up for themselves and adapt a succinct, coherent, positions which are identifiably in opposition to the prevailing zeitgeist, not just "nicer" versions of the zeitgeist, like Wellstone, FDR, etc. used to do. Our current leaders are too tied to corporate donors and convulsive pollsters, and it is this lack of spine that causes a lot of disrespect in both the left and right; even the right respects someone who fights. They DON'T respect an opponent who folds. This country (both sides) loves fighters, not squishes.

In the rush to change tactics, this should not be taken for granted. We can win by being more ourselves, not imitating today's kings.

[tngledwebb]

44. Well said.

But real change will not come until MSM is outed for the BFEE propaganda mill it is...

That is one of the hardest tasks ahead.

[tngledwebb]

42. Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. And ...

Wrong. Say it again Sam.

WE are the majority, if the truth ever comes out, or if the polls are ever to be believed.

And if the middle of the road Republican voter were in full possesion of the truly evil nature of THIS regime, I'd bet we'd have nearly a 75% majority.

Of course that's a lot of 'ifs'...

[ecstatic]

43. Maybe if more than 50% of Americans vote

We'll find ourselves in power again. It's really hard to have discussions like this because I do think the machines were tampered with/defective. It makes it hard to move forward because there is no closure or consensus on exactly what went wrong on Nov 2.

[kentuck]

45. Good point....

If we had a message that would appeal to more of those "non-voters", then perhaps we would regain the majority. However, with the present voting electorate, we are the minority.

[rman]

47. but how many Bush voters voted for him because they were decieved?

you know, Rove's wedge-issues, the mainstream media and all that.

[EVDebs]

70. It is sad when Nixon's impeachment offenses list misusing intell agencies

and abusing intelligence and federal agencies and now thirty years later if you do it nobody blinks an eye. The media even looks the other way and labels those who investigate "X-Files conspiracy theorists".

Is it any wonder joe sixpack votes for an dolt like Bush when the media is feeding him lies ? See http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1476913

We've come a long way, baby ?

[kentuck]

71. You make a good point also...

There is nothing to say for sure that the Repubs have a "permanent" majority - although they had a majority in the last election. Perhaps many voters were deceived? Perhaps many more were fearful? Perhaps many bought into the bullshit propaganda from Bush and Rove? Perhaps many of those were Democratic voters in the past? We do not know. However, there is no proof as of yet that it is a permanent majority.

[jswordy]

51. 60% was the U.S. turnout in Nov. 2004

Next theory please!

[no name no slogan]

65. That's still 40% who DID NOT vote

And quite pathetic by voter turnout rates in the other industrialized democracies of the world, too.

Those 40% were the ones who didn't see any major reason to vote for either candidate. Why?

Which major party candidate supported a Livable Wage law?

Which major party candidate supported cutting the bloated defense budget, and spending the surplus on rebuilding our inner cities and rural towns decimated by the unbridled 'free market' economy of the last two decades?

Which major party candidate unequivocably opposed going to war with Iraq? Which major party candidate unequivocably opposed the PATRIOT act, and promised to repeal it?

Which major party candidate supported breaking up corporate monopolies? Which candidate supported greater controls on agribusiness giants who control our entire agricultural economy? Which candidate supported greater oversight of the securities industry that preys on the weak and vulnerable, and 'invests' their hard-earned money in risky stocks and bonds?

It's not too hard to see why 40% of the people stayed home last year-- even though we had so much at stake. When your choice is between the guy who'll beat you with a bat and a guy who'll beat you with a tire iron, who can blame you if you decide to sit this one out?

[EVDebs]

69. We need Australian voting law: It's a crime not to vote ! n/t

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

50. We are the majority. Just not in "Murka".

Americans love to delude themselves into thinking that we are the "Shining City on the Hill", or "The New Jerusalem". That the whole world wants to be just like us and enjoy the benefits of unleashed capitalism and fervent (alleged) Christianity. They just can't understand why the rest of the world can't accept their assigned role of servants and contributors to our greed.

Rome, Britain, Germany, and all of the rest of the colonlialists suffered from the same delusion.

[wadestock]

52. Our Problem is more one of CAMARADERIE

We are the open minded, the progressive, the free thinkers.

We tend to be individualist. We can rally together for common causes, but in comparison to the freepers who successfully unite and believe in success at the hands of greed and power as if it were a religion, we are a splintered bunch that needs EXTRA effort to come together on common goals and purpose.

It is for these reasons that we are also easily pray for con artists that take pot shots of this or that or practice the politics of individual destruction. If you doubt the truth of these statements, make an analogy to what happens in the workplace. Consider the difference of getting things done on whether you are considered an insider or outsider.

In other words....all the right things....all those cherished beliefs and goodness that we represent, aren't going to coalesce as easy as the crap that they believe in. As I've said where I work, it is very easy for the scum bags to come together. They seem to have a nature affinity for reveling in their sorted schemes.

The fact that we as a people have to really rally and potentially get through to our pathetic democratic senators and representatives makes the job that much more difficult. It is these supposed elected officials that should have had the sense to rally more strongly around Kerry and form more of a united front.

[DaedelusNemo]

53. for lots of them it is, and it's called "Dominionism"

"freepers who successfully unite and believe in success at the hands of greed and power as if it were a religion"

[wadestock]

61. Thanks

I love the new words and concepts learned here....

[Clarkie1]

54. We HAVE to change leadership and strategy - no "may have to" about it!

[SOS]

62. The Democratic Party

could refuse all corporate and PAC money.
A party of the American people must be 100% funded by the American people.
The distinction would finally be made clear - Republicans represent Wall Street, Democrats represent Main Street.
As long as corporations control the Party, there is no change possible. Ever.

[latteromden]

64. The "majority" in politics has nothing to do with the number of people

that vote for you. Well, okay, I shouldn't say in all politics, but in Washington, at least. The majority is the party in power, not necessarily the party with more members. We are NOT the party in power.