I'm bothered by the caucus results...was the caucus freeped?

[ariellyn]

How did Kerry win over the frontrunners? I just don't see "it" in Kerry--that thing, the aura of greatness or whatever it is that attracts people to candidates. He just doesn't have the vigor and stamina I like to see in a candidate. I'm disappointed that he beat the previous frontrunners. I'm almost suspicious that the freepers, in the form of true dittoheads, voted to distort the results.

The one thing that bothers me about the people who have surfaced in the caucus is that they voted for the war. I am not a politician but it was obvious to me, from day one, that the war was unnecessary and unjust. If these people were duped by Bush, when I wasn't, I'm not sure I have a lot of faith in them. Of course most have come around to the anti-war side after the facts have come in but I'm not sure whether they are genuine or just want votes.

I'm just not confident that he can appeal to voters on a national level and beat you-know-who*. It's going to take everything we've got to do that. If Kerry wins the nomination, or any other Dem, I will vote for them. I am, first and foremost, ABB.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

1. Dean and His Supporters Would Be Well-Served, IMO, by Self-Analysis

And seeking what went wrong from within their campaign, rather than seeking to blame it on third parties.

You cannot freep the Iowa caucuses on any statistically significant scale. It's hard enough to get die-hard DEMS out to the caucuses on a cold night for hours and hours. There's no way Republicans are going to do it.

For that matter, accusations of freeping even the open primary states are invalid, IMO. So long as the ground rules remain the same throughout the election period, the candidates know the score and the terrain, and it's their job to account for the effects of open primaries and the possibility of Republican cross-overs.

DTH

[HazMat]

7. Exactly

Caucuses are far more mischief-proof than primaries. Caucuses take true party involvement and commitment, as opposed to primaries where all one has to do is show up, vote and leave.

[Melodybe]

14. We are treating Dean like he is god and not like he is a candidate that

could use some work. I saw it with Zephyr when she was here, complete hero worship and no constructive critism allowed. She ignored everything I told her about how to reach people here in MS. They are ignoring all of the really good ideas coming from their younger volunteers b/c they are older and therefore know what is best. Dean should have been on the damn Daily Show months ago. This is our fault for assuming that Dean will just appeal to the average TV watching Democrat, Iowa is proof that he doesn't. Yes our grass roots is good but maybe we should have spent a little more time getting Dean in a positive media environment (late night) than letting him spend all his time at Fox giving them credibility that they do not deserve.

We can still turn this around but Dean should spend a little less time exciting his base and a little more time trying to reach John Q Public.

Our campaign completely ignored 35 million voters and there is no excuse for that.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

16. Those Are Good Suggestions

The Dean campaign would do well to take them to heart, along with the other suggestions you allude to in your excellent post.

Thank you for being an eminently reasonable and dedicated Dean supporter.

:toast:

DTH

[Melodybe]

19. Hopefully I'll get to tell them to Tripi tomorrow!

Cross your fingers for me, even though I know you don't like Dean, there is a real Democratic movement going on (not just Deaniacs but all Dems) and I am afraid Dean's lose tonight might put us on the GOP's playing field. They are already saying that Dean lost b/c of Saddam and even the most rabid Dean hater will admit that it wasn't b/c of Saddam it was b/c Dean has been wasting him time and acting like an ass.

[bearfartinthewoods]

26. on MSNBC last night, i felt like i slipped into bizarro world

dean was being defended by pat buchanan, pat caudell and joe freakin scarboro! they were the ones saying to not count dean out. they said his problem was slipping off message and was fixable. then dean came out and spoke and all that stopped.

now this is the point i'm trying to make. the dean loyalists loved the speech. other people thought it was totally off the mark. dean has to remember the world is watching him and craft his message more broadly and his style has to appeal to mainstream.

[rucky]

2. What really goes on in Iowa happens off camera

Kerry knew that. Dean is still trying to beat the media at their own game.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

3. Why on earth would freepers lean the election towards Kerry?

ooh, I know..maybe we weren't freeped...we were Skull and Boneserized! :scared:

[Zomby Woof]

4. boner-sized???

Oh! Read that wrong! :D

[DoveTurnedHawk]

5. Bonercizing!

Now that's one form of exercise I can fully support! :D

Getting back on topic, there's no way Republicans would support Kerry over Dean. Every Republican I know is dying to run against Dean.

DTH

[Zomby Woof]

10. We should list the scapegoats

1. The Media! Grrrr!
2. Clark! He did it with remote-control outer space mind waves he personally sent!
3. Gephardt! No eyebrows! Eeeeevil I say!!
4. DK! He stole Dean's anti-war stance, ya know! :eyes:

[DoveTurnedHawk]

12. It's the NEW ABD!

Whose fault is it?

Anyone But Dean's!

DTH

[Bolo Boffin]

15. Now.

Behave.

*giggle*

[GalleryGod]

18. Petulance will get one slapped-about!

Good news for Dean: He's still odds-on.

BAD NEWS:wtf: If 'Murica took their "First Peek" last night, and thus saw Dean's Rally Speech to Prozac Nation?:silly: Uh-OH!

Rove's Folks saved THAT roll of video!:nopity:


Your Man in the Faculty Lounge, Talkin' Caucuses,
:smoke: G.G.

[kayleybeth]

22. LOL, ZombyWoof!

Ain't it the truth!

[IowaBiker]

6. Hard to freep a caucus

The people are your neighbors. Ten of them for Kerry lived within two doors of my home. They are Dems.

Some are former Republicans who can't stomache the radicalism of Bush.

They're people so pissed with Bush that the number 1 consideration is the ability to beat Bush. A vet who backs up his words with combat experience is impressive -- a lot more impressive than taking a pass for the ski slopes.

A number of caucus attendees remarked, "The Dean people remind me of Bush people, only mirror images." Meaning angry and devisive. A lof of folks are fed up with that.

Brian

[Must_B_Free]

9. Is it easier to cauc a freepus?

frauc a creepus?

[Skidmore]

28. That was pretty much our experience last night

and I caucused for Dean. I agree it would be pretty hard to freep a caucus.

I will support any of the candidates, except Lieberman (who to me sounds too much like Bush).

[Dover]

8. I agree that it is hard to fathom Kerry's "miraculous" come from behind.

Kerry has been the candidate of choice for those inside the beltway from the start. Is it possible to manipulate results? Sure, there's always a way. I remember reading that Joe Kennedy bought his son's candidacy for president and bought off media people.
JFKennedy was popular and charismatic in his own right, but it doesn't hurt to have help in the right places.

Is there something going on with the Iowa caucus's?

Who knows. Wouldn't even know where to look. But if there was, I doubt it was the freepers.

[Must_B_Free]

13. And how does this fit with the Rove line on Dean?

"We'd like to run against Dean, that would be easy" (What the hell was that about anyway?) Did the Republicans get what they want?

I'd like to see Kerry in a wrestling match with Bush. Of all the candidates I think Kerry gets the maddest. I could see him tearing Bush apart in the debates.

[GalleryGod]

17. When Results Don't Align with one's Dogma? Freeped? Pay-Off?

Read a poli-Sci Book why don't you?

Almost as inane as the Newbie who stated "Well this was the FIRST time that Iowa came before New Hampshire!" SHEEeeeesh!?
Sorry, my class started yesterday-see the Comptrollers Office for a pass!:wtf:

Your Man in the Faculty lounge:donut: ,
G.G.:smoke:

[kayleybeth]

20. So we're trashing John F. Kennedy now?

Seriously?

[GalleryGod]

11. Then Get Over Your War Vote Litmus Test.

:puffpiece: :shrug: :kick:

[Lexingtonian]

21. If you followed the polling

Kerry was indeed the frontrunner during the past few days and second choice for many more. Dean wasn't ahead- and his margin in New Hampshire has also been shrinking at very much the same time.

About half of the Democratic base didn't oppose the war- many because they were poorly informed, but many others because they were well informed and agreed with waging it. It's a fact, and getting judgmental about it or accusing such people of stupidity (although many surely know more things about the subject than you or I) gets them against you rather than for your side, whatever the further merits of your argument. Claiming that Democrats "voted for the war" by supporting Kerry or Edwards yesterday is a selective reading of the evidence which is ethically wrongful.

For all your questions, why exactly you have let the war become an absolute in your mind, an idolatry you must obey rather than an example of human failure and vanity that people of goodwill could not nonviolently prevent, is probably something you should look into. Absolutisms pair with irrationality. (I love the Prologue, aka the Story of the Grotesques, of Sherwood Anderson's "Winesburg, Ohio".)

Perhaps your true objection is mostly that you don't vicariously emotionally connect with these fellows, and they don't impress you in the way you wish to be. Perhaps you may want to consider whether you have overemphasized the importance of an element of poorly warranted righteousness in your affinities for candidates so far. Genuine confidence proceeds from humility and proveable capability, not desire and manipulation of anxieties.

[blondeatlast]

27. You said it very well.

MANY (not all) Dean supporters are just a little too awestruck by their man. If he mucks up, it has to be someone else's fault, not a mistake made by their guy.

The fact is, one can only play the outsider for so long. If Dean gets the nomination and then wins the election, he is going to have to work with those "insiders" he despises so on both sides of the aisle in order to reverse the downhill slide we've seen for the past 3 1/2 years.

If he had any chance whatsoever of winning my support, he pretty much blew it in his bizarre speech last night.

[Iverson]

23. you don't like war, eh?

Well, the likelihood of the Iowa caucuses being freeped is so minute as to be discounted as a reasonable hypothesis.

A better explanation is found in some of the responses here which chide you for letting the decision to kill others become some kind of absolute (sic). The leftmost edge of the mainstream (DU) has a substantial percentage of people who find invasion reasonable and will say so on the heels of the Martin Luther King national holiday.

"Get over it" indeed.

[spinbaby]

24. He looks presidential

Sad to say, appearance often matters more than anything else and Kerry definitely manages come off looking very presidential.

[MaineDem]

25. The Undecideds

In every poll ... or most of them anyhow ... the "undecided" vote was the largest percentage. The polls tended to ignore those people. I think that has a lot to do with how skewed the polls seemed to be.

Also, it's hard to poll for a caucus. It comes down to how many people actually show up for their candidates and who changes to whom after the first vote, etc.

[creativelcro]

29. Well, did you see what the idiot on CSPAN did ?

he read aloud the number and the pin he would call to report the results.... Well, gues waht? Busy line busy line busy line. FInally, he makes another call and he is told that the results for his precint WERE ALREADY IN!!! He managed to correct them, BUT, what do you think happened ? Somebody called the number and punched in results before the legit person could... Wondering if something like this went on on a larger scale...

[quaker bill]

30. I do not know

However I agree with you. No IWR voters for me thanks.

[Kbick]

31. maybe Iowa was MLK jr's revenge.

I know Dean supports "States Rights" and South Carolina's right to fly the confederate flag.

So maybe Iowa was MLK jr's revenge.

It would have been a sad day if the Democrat who won on MLK jr's holiday supported "States Rights".

[mmonk]

32. Caucus's

are more inclined to be influenced by the party heads and who they prefer (not always, but arm twisting exists, especially with undecideds).