Do Kucinich supports feel they were "sold out"?

[KaraokeKarlton]

Clearly Edwards had enough support to do just fine without Kucinich supporters. So why didn't they hold up their end of the deal and send Kucinich enough of the Edwards caucus goers to Kucinich's group to make him viable in more caucuses?

I think Kucinich was foolish for making that Deal. Kucinich supporters might have ended up earning Edwards quite a bit more delegates than he would have otherwise gotten. Now the nation has been sent the message that voting against or being against the IWR is not a winning position.

Kucinich should never of made that deal. If Dean had of taken second in Iowa it would have given a lot more validity to being against war in Iraq and might have made others be more willing to stand up for what's right.

I'm just curious if any Kucinich supporters are upset by any of this.

[youngred]

1. not really

DKs campaign is about more than just the war

[DU9598]

2. He did okay on his own

He got his message out and was viable in our district. They were not sold out at all.

Go Edwards!

[loudnclear]

72. If Edwards should win, Dennis might be VP candidate!

He could do a lot worse...(Edwards, that is)

[snoochie]

3. Hardly

Nice try at sowing some discord and discontentment, though.

Maybe a good idea might be to let the other candidates supporters decide if they're upset without you trying to give them reasons to be? Just an idea.

[Terwilliger]

8. I'm not used to Kucinich supporters trying to quiet people down

If you'd noticed, the original poster is a long-time Kucinich supporter, like I am.

[diamondsoul]

12. Uh, no they aren't so then does that

mean you aren't either??:eyes:

[Terwilliger]

15. hey, don't question me

I've been Kucincih as first choice since the beginning

I'm trying to figure out why this doesn't bother you folks

[TLM]

43. Because they seem to care more about beating Dean...

than the ideas and concepts that Kucinich was supposed to represent.

New direction? Nope... Kucinich is just another DC insider trading around power with other insiders like Edwards to keep that power out of the hands of the people.


I though Kucinich was supposed to represent a change from the smoky back room deals kind of politics.

But it looks like when it came down to the wire, Kucinich was all talk. He was just more of the same status quo power brokering and back room deals.

Dean was the only guy who stuck to his guns and went right tot he people without any deals or double teaming... and he came in 3rd for it.

Dean seems to be the only candidate still standing who represents a real change and a change to take power back fromt eh DC insiders who seem to think this system belongs to them.

[diamondsoul]

56. It doesn't bother me because we have to defeat

the fear and childishness of people who refuse to support Kucinich. It doesn't bother me because it was strategic and not based in issues, and because it applied to a unique situation for a single day.

I "questioned" you based on an erroneous statement you made and still haven't corrected which does leave me wondering right now. Probably a touch of paranoia on my part because I've been through a meat-grinder as a campaign staffer.

Sorry but I think people are asking Dennis to split himself into about 500 people, places and positions, and that ain't gonna happen. He's ONE HUMAN man who is seriously fighting to save this country. If you can't back that up, even if it gets a little unpleasant then you have nothing to complain about.

[Zomby Woof]

32. no she's not

She is an avid Dean supporter.

Some of us are trying to figure out why you are so upset over the deal.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

33. A Kucinich supporter?

I thought KaraokeKarlton was a Dean supporter, since I have seen him/her mostly advocating Dean over Kucinich. Or am I thinking of someone else?

[Desertrose]

51. FYI- KK is a vociferous Dean supporter

I find her sudden concern for all us Kucinich supporters extremely touching....

not necessarily sincere, but moving none the less.

Peace
DR

.....and no, Dennis sold out no one or no thing...this is the way things work in a caucus. I actually thought it was a pretty interesting move. Maybe it will dispel some of the BS going around here that DK is not a pragmatist. I'd say this proves otherwise.

[KaraokeKarlton]

11. That's not what I'm doing

I'm just saying that, in my opinion, Kucinich got the shitty end of the stick in that deal. Edwards reps should have helped Kucinich out by sending some of their delegates to make him viable. That's how these kinds of deals are supposed to work...so that BOTH parties benefit from them. I don't see where Kucinich benefitted at all from the agreement. :shrug:

My favorite part of the Cspan coverage was that Kucinich supporter who was stubborn as hell. I missed the end so I don't know where he ended up going.

[goodhue]

46. benefit to DK was real

For instance, in Decorah . . .

http://news.mpr.org/features/2004/01/20_galballye_iowacaucus/

Moments later, the crowd scatters.

Supporters of John Kerry stretch along a side of the room decorated with posters, and red, white and blue streamers. They're the largest group here. The Howard Dean backers crowd another corner. Fans of Dennis Kucinich get a boost, when the smattering of John Edwards supporters decide to merge with them.

* * * *

Abby Evinger also had trouble choosing a candidate. She's a baker at a local tearoom, and voted Republican in the last presidential election. She spends some time visiting with Dean people. But when it comes time to make an actual decision, Evinger joins the Kucinich camp.

"He's who I wanted to vote for," says Evinger. "I think he's a great guy. And even if he doesn't make it, I would like to see other people take him seriously and his ideas seriously, and have more people say, 'Oh wow, people are interested in what he's standing for,' and maybe get that incorporated into the bigger names."

She helps Kucinich gain three delegates for the Winnesheik County caucus in March. John Kerry scores six delegates, the largest number. And four delegates will go on for Howard Dean.

[maxanne]

19. it's a shame

that asking an honest question is viewed as sowing discord.

[snoochie]

26. LOL honest question?

First he implies that Kucinich got screwed (which I don't agree with).

Then he calls Kucinich 'foolish' and implies that somehow there's a 'message' about the war sent by this caucus. Again, I don't agree. (And it looks to me as if too many people here are well versed in media spin tactics!)

Then he asserts that Kucinich should never have made the deal, and gives us the plea for support for Dean.

Sorry, but that has to be the most slanted 'honest question' I've ever seen!

(Well, except for those poll questions on the RNC site -- about how Saddam should still be in power? remember that?)

[youngred]

30. do a search on the poster asking

and then see if its an "honest question"

further this is about the 238th (Ok I exaggerate slightly) thread asking DID KUCINICH BETRAY HIS SUPPORTERS, 3/4 of which are from Dean supporters.....still think its an "honest question"?

[hippywife]

88. Guess they gotta do something

to draw attention away from the fact that their candidate sounded like a raving lunatic and once again lied about being the only anti-war candidate.

Maybe if they can make us feel we were sold out, then they won't feel so bad everytime Dean lies. :eyes:

Not a chance I'm feeling sold out. Taking the man and the message all the way to the convention. Count on it! ;)

[Terwilliger]

4. I am

I've said that I thought his throwing support to the Edwards camp was playing politics, and not a good idea given his unique positions. Kucinich knows his place...he should speak truth to power and ask his people to stick it out.

[jpgray]

7. Are you also a fan of Dean? I seem to remember you giving support?

Dunno, I could be wrong, it's happened before.

[Terwilliger]

9. defense

not support

I'm a fan of all the Dem candidates :-) (trying to be)

[AP]

5. They did keep up their end of the deal from what I saw on CSPAN

At the Caucus I watched, a K supporter went to the edwards group and asked for ONE person. Edwards's organizer didn't hesitate. They gave up one. By the time he got there, K had lost six or seven people. The K people did not bother to back and ask for more. They gave up. Except for the hippie-grunge kid. He stuck to his guns.

I'll also note that NOT all the K people went to Edwards when K didn't get 15%. It seemed like many of the Gep people did, however.

[Nadienne]

59. My group also:

I told them that if we weren't viable (which we weren't), the best way we could help Kucinich is by helping Edwards (which also wasn't viable and wouldn't have been even if all of my group had combined with theirs). A number of my group said that they already had a second choice.

[angee_is_mad]

6. Don't playa hate!

Theirs a long road for everyone. Tonight does show that no candidate can not take anything for granted, no matter how much money, how many endorsements and how strong their grass root support is.

It is time for everyone to sit back and view what happened tonight objectively and regroup for his or her candidate.

May the best man win the nomination and may we all get behind him to beat Bush!

[LWolf]

10. No.

[Eric J in MN]

13. No. After those bogus articles portraying Kucinich

No. After those bogus articles portraying Kucinich as far-out, Kucinich showed his political aptitude.

Kucinich got mentioned a lot in the media this morning, and that should help him should he decide to run for US Senator from Ohio in 2006.

[goodhue]

84. yes

The man is no space cadet. He knows exactly what he is doing.

[diamondsoul]

14. Not a bit.

I'm proud as hell of Dennis for trying to work with friends and be a real human being, even though it didn't help him much. My man ROCKS!

[oasis]

16. Carol Mosely Braun had a chance to back the right horse but blew it

with her baseless attack on Edwards during the debate.

[goodhue]

17. No

I think it was a brilliant move actually. Here is DK's statement:

"This is the beginning of the campaign," said Kucinich. "We've got 49 states left to go. The media had long ago predicted the winner of the entire process and even the loser of the general election, and tonight's caucuses have the pundits scratching their collective scalps in bewilderment. I moved from ninth place to fifth and won delegates despite the 15 percent threshold.

"The longtime poll leader dropped to third, which some pundits are erroneously crediting to Dr. Dean's status as an anti-war candidate. Dr. Dean did not consistently oppose the initial stages of this war and he has said that he will keep our troops in Iraq for years.

"As I climb higher in New Hampshire and each successive state, and as the situation in Iraq continues to worsen, Democratic support for peace will be reflected in my campaign's success. I predict a brokered convention in July. By the end of this month my campaign will have raised over $10 million, including matching funds, and I'm just getting started.

"As part of my strategy in the Iowa caucuses, I worked out an arrangement with Senator Edwards that may have allowed each of us to pick up a few more delegates. Our supporters, of course, ultimately chose their own courses of action. But none were left with their only strategic choice being leaving their caucus and going home. John and I are friends and I wish him the best. But we have 49 states left to go, and we're each on our own."

http://www.kucinich.us/pressreleases/pr_011904b.php

[ThirdWheelLegend]

18. go go Dennis!

And I agree, I do not feel sold out..
Kucinich and Edwards have been good friends for a while. Back when Kucinich was on the Daily Show, John Stewart asked Dennis if he gets along with the other and he named John Edwards.

TWL

[plurality]

20. nope

DK and Sharpton are the only anti-war people in this campaign. So regardless of what happened DK people would have to caucus with a pro-war candidate, and since Edwards actually has a poor-person friendly domestic agenda, I think it's a perfect fit.

[HFishbine]

21. Certainly some things to think about

- Edwards supporters clearly were numerous enough that they could have reciprocated and made Kucinich a viable candidate. They didn't. Kucinich got the short end of the stick.

- The other ant-war candidate finished a distant third, casting doubts on the viablity of an anti-war position.

- Kucinich lost his credibility. Having encouraged support of a pro-war candidate, Kucinich will no longer be able to credibly critisize those who supported the war.

[snoochie]

22. What's with all the non-Kucinich supporters all of a sudden so concerned

with whether or not Kucinich's actual supporters will be troubled by this?

- I disagree. Kucinich's supporters in Iowa may feel that way, but I certainly don't. And judging from the calls I heard on C-Span, they were fine with the situation and impressed with the turnout. I certainly didn't hear any of the consternation from them that I've read here.

- I disagree. This caucus was not a referendum on the IWR. I don't think people outside of this forum are so dedicated to that one issue. Kucinich's supporters, now that the invasion is history, are now focused on ending the occupation, not the ranting about the IWR.

- I disagree. He did not 'encourage support' for Edwards, he tried to negotiate for a better result during this caucus. Whether or not you think it worked or was a good idea is immaterial, since it's not your campaign, and he's not even your first choice as a candidate.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

25. yes, way more complains from Dean supporters on this

then Kucinich supporters. Plus, people are reading into this much more than is there - there was no endorsement of Edwards!

[snoochie]

27. I suspect they expected some crossover support

Kind of like what happened after Dean broke his pledge to stay within the public financing system. Now that was selling out. He criticized the very idea of going outside the system - even going to far as to say he'd attack anyone that did, and ... well we all know the rest of the story.

I think they expected to get the same kind of benefit from this strategic move by the Kooch, even though (unlike Dean) Kucinich didn't compromise his own principles. Heh. :)

[Freddie Stubbs]

23. This was good for Kucinich and Bush

They want a long, drawn-out primary campaign. Last night's results muddle the field meaning there is no clear front-runner.

[goodhue]

49. well

I don't think brokered convention is good for Bush but it is what DK expects will happen.

[tobys]

24. How can you sell out by supporting another Democrat?

I know that Howard Dean people are used to the politics of bashing other Democrats, but can they please explain to me how supporting another member of the Democratic Party of which Dennis is a member is in any way selling out?

Now, if he went and said he supports George Bush, then that would be selling out.

[mdmc]

28. DK didn't have 15%

His support should go somewhere. DK could have supported Dean or Kerry, but chose Edwards. It was his choice, and the choice of his supporters.
Its not like the DK group HAD 15%, then broke up to increase the strength of Edwards.

[snoochie]

29. And?

This doesn't confirm any 'selling out'... it just means Kucinich is smarter and has a better grasp on strategy than anyone wants to give him credit for. Throw his support to the stronger candidates, who have less reason to bother with any reciprocal support? Right.

[ShimokitaJer]

34. I think you're attacking someone who's on your side, snoochie

mdmc was making the same point you are. Kucinich's actions were simply politics, pure and simple. Not necessarily smart politics, considering it was a one-sided push towards Edwards rather than the give-and-take that you need to stay viable in a caucus state, but politics nonetheless

I think the reason so many Dean supporters were surprised by this is that they honestly believed that Kucinich was about more than politics. I know I certainly did. Kucinich wasn't my candidate, but I admired his idealism and refusal to back down from those ideals.

Maybe you are all cynical enough that you didn't really believe Kucinich's talk about the war. Maybe that was all just politics as well. But for a candidate for whom the strongest selling point was that he refuses to take the expedient path over the path of his own convictions, I don't see how playing politics can gain you any additional support.

Then again, maybe I'm just supremely naive.

[CWebster]

38. I think you expressed this beautifully.

I always though Kucinich's input informed the debate--he was the conscience of the party. Now it turns out he is just another politician, ready to sell-out to gain a few points.

[redqueen]

40. LOL

How again did he 'sell out'? By trying to advance his cause?

Sad... see, to 'sell out', you have to actually compromise your principles. Since Kucinich did not change his stance, he did not compromise his principles (i.e. he did not 'sell out).

Aaaaaanyway. :)

[CWebster]

42. I'm sorry

was he trying to advance his cause?

[redqueen]

44. Shyuh!

He kept the field competitive heading into NH, and also managed to come out with enough support to get at least one delegate. It's great to see people who denigrated him as being unable to get any delegates now switching gears to attack him for 'selling out'.

His campaign has grown steadily, and this will not stop it, no matter how many of Dean's supporters shout and scream 'sell out!'

[ShimokitaJer]

45. Advancing "one's cause" and "one's campaign" are not the same

I know you will reply with the same old "Well you've got to win elections to get your cause noticed" canard, which will of course prompt me to ask "What makes you think getting Edwards elected will advance Kucinich's causes?"

Just two days before the Iowa caucus, Kucinich said "The Democrats forfeited a chance to regain the House in 2002 because party leaders supported this war. We will forfeit the White House this year if we take the same path. Voters will not turn out for a Democrat unless the Democrats offer an alternative to the Republican agenda. All of the other candidates in the Iowa Caucuses are forfeiting to Bush the debate on what should be the central issue of this campaign. Bush wants to leave our troops in Iraq for years, and so do they."

Tell me how he didn't change his stance or compromise his principles in throwing his support to Edwards, and tell me how he advances his cause by doing so.

[redqueen]

50. He didn't 'throw his support to Edwards'

When you figure out what happened, we'll talk. :)

[diamondsoul]

53. Back up, please-

One, it's ok for Dean to flat out LIE to advance his campaign and thus his "cause" whatever the hell that is, but it's not ok for Kucinich to negotiate some collaboration with a fellow Dem who hasn't spit in his face to advance his campaign and thuse his causes?

Some people really need to employ some logic around here.

[goodhue]

60. they are one and the same for DK

He is trying to promote the progressive vision and get the 10-key issues to the convention in July. He believes that as the progressive vision is communicated to average working people, that there will be increased support over time. Much like the moral majority transformed the Republican party in the late 70s and throughout the 80s, DK believes that a progressive transformation of the Democratic Party is the only path to a reinvigorated party.

http://www.kucinich.us/issues/10key.php

<1> Universal Health Care with a Single Payer Plan
<2> Full Social Security Benefits at Age 65
<3> Withdrawal from NAFTA and WTO
<4> Repeal of the "Patriot Act"
<5> Right-to-Choose, Privacy, and Civil Rights
<6> Balance Between Workers and Corporations
<7> Guaranteed Quality Education, Pre-K through College
<8> A Renewed Commitment to Peace and Diplomacy
<9> Restored Rural Communities and Family Farms
<10> Environmental Renewal and Clean Energy

[TLM]

48. Exactly... the biggest thing Kucinich had going for him was....

he was not a typical status quo back room deal kind of politician who brokered power and influence over his convictions and ideals.


Monday night he proved that was all talk.... kucinich is just another DC insider working with other DC insiders to shut out the grassroots.


Shame really. I thought more of Kucinich.

[Nadienne]

64. The biggest thing in your opinion.

Here are some other big things:

Universal single-payer health care for all, as opposed to health insurance for all.

Cancelling NAFTA and the WTO and setting up bilateral trade agreements, as opposed to trying to change NAFTA.

Free, quality education for all, pre-K through college.

Job creation through infrastructure repair, an FDR-type plan.

[ShimokitaJer]

77. ... and which of those positions does Edward support?

After all, we're trying to find reasons Kucinich pushed his supporters to support Edwards in the primary. If they had similar positions on any of those issues, I would understand his actions better.

[Tinoire]

65. This type of arrogance could be the death of the Dean movement

I really wish you guys would just stop it, quit bitching about 3rd place, roll up your sleeves, and GET BACK TO WORK! It's going to be a long, hard Primary. No easy victories on this one. If you were expecting an easy 1st place simply because of enthusiasm and blind conviction that you owned the anti-war vote, be grateful this real message came in early so that you can re-adjust your strategy, tweek it or whatever you want to do.

-----


DK could have supported Dean or Kerry. Whatever for?

And number 2. It was the choice of his supporters to do whatever the hell they wanted to; he simply let them know that both he and Edwards would appreciate it if, in areas where one of them had the numbers, the rest wouldn't mind helping out.

Nothing wrong with that.

It's legal.
It's a common caucus practice.
It's not like Kucinich supporters don't have a mind of their own. Kucinich never told anyone to do anything. Just said "Hey, if you're comfortable with this, here's what Edwards and I would like to do for each other".

What the hell ever happened to ABB?

Or does ABB only mean NBD, or NBK, or NBC?

[Nadienne]

71. Yes. Exactly.

It was the choice of his supporters to do whatever the hell they wanted to; he simply let them know that both he and Edwards would appreciate it if, in areas where one of them had the numbers, the rest wouldn't mind helping out.

Who spun this story, anyway?

[redqueen]

31. No, I don't feel 'sold out'

I find the question to be absolutely ridiculous, actually.

Go Kooch! :D

[goodhue]

35. deal went both ways

DK benefited in some precincts such as this precinct in Decorah (in a county where DK got 6.7% of delegates) described in this excellent MPR story . . .

http://news.mpr.org/features/2004/01/20_galballye_iowacaucus/

Moments later, the crowd scatters.

Supporters of John Kerry stretch along a side of the room decorated with posters, and red, white and blue streamers. They're the largest group here. The Howard Dean backers crowd another corner. Fans of Dennis Kucinich get a boost, when the smattering of John Edwards supporters decide to merge with them.

There wasn't a lot of debate on the issues at this caucus. Most people came with their minds made up.

* * * *

Abby Evinger also had trouble choosing a candidate. She's a baker at a local tearoom, and voted Republican in the last presidential election. She spends some time visiting with Dean people. But when it comes time to make an actual decision, Evinger joins the Kucinich camp.

"He's who I wanted to vote for," says Evinger. "I think he's a great guy. And even if he doesn't make it, I would like to see other people take him seriously and his ideas seriously, and have more people say, 'Oh wow, people are interested in what he's standing for,' and maybe get that incorporated into the bigger names."

She helps Kucinich gain three delegates for the Winnesheik County caucus in March. John Kerry scores six delegates, the largest number. And four delegates will go on for Howard Dean.

[spindoctor]

36. I trust Kooch's judgement

If Kooch does not have a chance (as in Iowa), then I will trust his judgement on who to boost with whatever votes we have.

He knows the other candidates better than I do. I trust his integrity and I trust his integrity in pledging his support.

No, I don't feel "betrayed". I was hoping for a better result in Iowa, but it wasn't there. Let's move on.

[CWebster]

37. So much for kucinichs high ideology and principles

He expected his followers to do his bidding based on a pact he had with Edwards--A personal relationship took priority.

What say you?

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

47. what should he have done - do the trade with *Dean*?

If he was going to do a trade with Dean, why not Lieberman?

The only reason Dean didn't vote for IWR or another similar measure is because he didn't hold an office.

[Terwilliger]

58. He shouldn't have done any trade

that's the point

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

66. of course he should have - it's a caucus

You know what, sticking to your principles doesn't mean being an asshole. If I'm caucusing with a group of Democrats who support someone else, I'm willing to lend a hand for their candidate if they lend a hand for mine.

If Kucinich's supporters are "selling out" by trading with Edwards supporters, Kucinich fans may as well not be in the Democratic party. If we aren't going to vote for the Dem nominee, than why vote in the primary?

That would be GOOD in the long run - the white, wealthy, over-educated liberals in the Green party can keep it all to themselves, while the actual, real working class of America - mostly Democrats and independents - can stop trying to pander to the Suicide Purity Party.

I for one want to infiltrade and control the Democratic party, not hang out with a bunch of priviledged cranks who want to be the new vanguard.

[diamondsoul]

55. "do his bidding" my butt!

It was a suggestion about which of the remaining candidates Kucinich supporters should try to keep viable. DO NOT imply Kucinich used any sort of coersion here. That did not happen on EITHER side.

[youngred]

61. I say you have no clue what you're talking about

yet another outsider who feels this was a wrong idea.

I see ONE Kucinich supporter who disagreed with it.

[Cocoa]

39. Kucinich's antiwar position is very different from Dean's

he's not fixated on the IWR, he's more concerned with what to do now, especially his plan to get the troops out.

That makes it much more credible to me.

I imagine, without claiming to know, that Dennis resents Dean's antiwar pretense as much as Gephardt resented Dean's liberal pretenses.

[TLM]

41. Did you see on CSPAN... that kucinich guy trying so hard...

to get TWO folks from the edwards camp to support Kucinich so they wouldn't be ruled out... and none of them would do it.


Kucinich is my number 2 or 3... or he was. If I was a DK supporter and supported him because he was against the war and he was supposed to be so different, then I was told to support Edwards who voted for the war... I'd be pissed.

Seems that Kucinich was full of crap... he's just another DC insider brokering power with other DC insiders.

[redqueen]

52. Well it's a good thing you're a Dean supporter

Seems like many Dean supporters are very, very upset over this move by Kucinich.

What I don't get is why they care. :shrug:

[youngred]

63. They assumed that we "owed" Dean our votes

when we didn't come along to play they got angry

[Desertrose]

70. very astute, youngred

I find it quite interesting that some Dean supporters are so upset about DK working with Edwards....

....and a few days ago they acted like we didn't exist and were totally unnecessary....how many said DK wasn't a "major" candidate?

Well if he isn't then why do they care???

I think the coming days will prove Dennis is not only a major candidate but is someone to seriously be reckoned with!

:hi: youngred

Peace & hope
DR

[ThirdWheelLegend]

89. great observation!

"how many said DK wasn't a "major" candidate?

Well if he isn't then why do they care???"

Exactly how it is playing out.

TWL

[youngred]

93. I sure hope so

I think his plan is to try and bring some delegates and make a difference in the planks and platforms, one thing for sure, he isn't going anywhere

:hi: DR

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

54. Seems to me that Dean ...

... has been "full of crap" since day one, along with the DC insider power brokers that endorsed him. Dean: new boss, same as the old boss. Plenty of us aren't fooled - maybe Iowans weren't easily fooled either.

[Nadienne]

67. Lumping things into black and white like that

...isn't that a conservative trait?

And, fancy that: a Dean supporter criticizing Kucinich's strategy.

[goodhue]

68. lol

Yes, who would have thunk.

[Tinoire]

57. Sold out? The man did exactly what we asked him to do!

He went to get a platform for his ideas and his message by WINNING.

He won.

And I'm not upset at all. I'm ecstatic.

This is how caucuses work.

I also disagree with you that this sent a message to the nation that voting against/being against IWR is not a winning position.

The real message in there is that you're either really anti-war (which means Afghanistan, Yugoslavia, Columbia, Palestine), anti-occupation, and really liberal or don't count on the anti-war vote. Certain people feel that if we have to compromise that much, we may as well go for a Domestic Progressive/Liberal. Kucinich's platform is about a lot more than being anti-war. All of Kucinich's causes are related to war for us, the Iraq war is not a stand-alone issue. It's indeed the most important issue but you have to bear in mind that 1a. most Kucinich supporters don't believe that Dean is really anti-this-war and 1b. many feel that Dean hasn't been very honest about presenting himself as "the" anti-war candidate (especially given 1a.) and 2. Dean is not domestically that liberal.

Certain days I agree with them, certain I don't. The best thing Dean has going for him (to get someone like me on board) is the grass-roots movement, the people's movement. That is the main reason I would passionately join the Dean camp- to be part of the people's movement telling the establishment to stick it but Dean himself & his positions don't excite me.

Hope that makes sense.

[goodhue]

69. amen

makes perfect sense to me

[ozone_man]

78. Nice rationalization.

I know your heart is in the right place and you believe that DK is doing the right thing.

I was listening to the talking heads on the radio on the way home saying that the Iowa results indicated that the anti-Iraq war message is being over shadowed by the strong on defense message. Is this what you want? To be given a choice between fear candidate #1 Clark, four star general, and fear candidate #2, Vietnam Vet, Lieutenant Kerry?

I will not bend on this issue and Kucinich has lost me as a potential supporter. Nader would not cave in like this, and I have to say that he replaces DK as my alternate. No Dean is not anti-war, but he is anti this war, and this war is at a critical turning point where we either turn Fascist or turn back to Democracy.

[goodhue]

80. Did you hear DK's speech last night?

He will be taking the anti-occupation message all the way to the convention!

DENNIS KUCINICH SPOKE TO HIS SUPPORTERS LAST NIGHT AND SAID:

Some would think it's unwise to suggest that when you have 1% of the delegates that somehow you can take that as a springboard to the nomination, but I will say that kind of daring and fearlessness is what this country is actually looking for at this time, because if we have learned anything over the past few weeks, it is that the political condition in this state and for that matter in this country is very volatile, that somebody's up one day and down the next. So this campaign is always going to be committed to consistent principles which I believe at some point the American people will wholeheartedly embrace and I'm going to begin with this: and that is the principle that we must work for a peaceful resolution of the situation in Iraq which means bringing in UN peacekeepers and bringing our troops home. Let me tell you that while this becomes urgent that some of the election results already are being interspersed as being a rejection of the message about getting out of Iraq.

I will make a prediction that the American people, as this campaign season continues to advance, will begin to focus very sharply on this question of Iraq and the connection between the positions of the various candidates and what those positions will mean with respect to that prospective nominee and whether or not we're going to continue to be in Iraq. This campaign, and we are at the beginning of this campaign, will offer the American people a sharp contrast with all the other candidates.

Now there's one candidate, Al Sharpton, who has also agreed that we should get out of Iraq, I want to make that clear. And we ought to be grateful for him taking that position. And we should credit when someone takes that position. But in this race here in Iowa we began the debate, I stood alone in putting that message out to people.

But this is just the beginning and we need to recognize that. And being at the beginning of a debate is an important moment, because we start to lay the basis for a continuing discussion nationally about the wisdom or lack of wisdom about this country's position on continuing the war against Iraq and continuing the occupation. I want to review this tonight, because this is really going to be the basis for so much of our campaign down the road. All of the other democrats in this Iowa debate just kind of swept this position aside, and said we're going to have to stay the course, we're going to be there for a long time, and there's nothing we can do about it. We've got to clean up the President's mess.

Our campaign is the vehicle by which our soldiers are going to have their security protected. We have to. We have to recognize that we're at a dangerous moment with respect to Iraq. Where the Iraqi people, 100,000 Iraqis, marched through the streets of Baghdad in a nonviolent protest demanding that this American government stop this effort to basically rig the elections in Iraq. That our government must take a whole new direction. We must take a Boston where we go to the UN and say look, we're giving up the ambitions to oil

- We're giving up the ambitions to contract
- We're giving up the ambitions for privatization
- We're giving up the ambitions to contract
- We're giving up the ambitions to control the government of Iraq
- That we want a new approach and working with the new world community
- We want to bring in UN peacekeepers
- We want to bring our troops home
- We want to help rebuild Iraq
- We want to provide help to people who lost their lives, the innocent people
- We want to help provide for UN peacekeepers
- Because that's the right thing to do
- We're going to keep this campaign going
- We're not going to let this go
- We're going to keep this campaign going
- We're going to go on to New Hampshire
- We're going to go on to South Carolina
- We're going to go to New Mexico and Arizona
- We're on our way to the west, the north, the south,
- We're carrying this campaign all the way to the convention
- And we will win at the convention
- And we will win because
* we stand for social and economic justice
* unifying the world
* bringing peace and stability to Iraq and the only way we're going to do that is to
- Bring in UN peacekeepers and bring our troops home.

Our President said "Bring 'em on" and I say "Bring 'em home". Bring our troops home. And so you know the polls talked about us having 3% support. Every delegate here raise your hand, I want to explain what these delegates represent. This means in these precincts that we got 15% of the vote. All around this state we had people who were able to demonstrate that by rallying together we were able to get 15% of the vote, that's how we get delegates. That's how we have delegates in this room right now, and there are many more outside the city of Des Moines that are celebrating tonight that they're going to be delegates. But we have to recognize something. This election we started off one of 9 candidates considered to be in 9th place, because we came to Iowa, because we campaigned in Iowa, over the period of the last 11 months, we moved up from 9th to 5th. So what we need you to do now is to join with us in continuing to organize as we go state to state.

So we need your help in continuing to raise money at our website at kucinich.us, we need your help in continuing to assist us in organizing in other states. The ones that are near Iowa, for those of you who are able to drive, you can help us. We need your help in continuing to build this grassroots effort. We recognize that we've taken the first step today. But the first step is the most important when you are taking a journey of a thousand miles. But this step that we took today is a step that demonstrates the courage of this campaign, the commitment of this campaign, the heart of this campaign, the spirit of this campaign, and the spirit of all the people who are in this room and all of the people who all over America are counting on this campaign to really bring the light of peace to this nation and the world.

Now Chet Quinn talked about Dr. Martin Luther King, and he gave a speech at Riverside Church in New York, and I believe it was in 1967, where he talked about the war in Vietnam, as destroying the hopes of peoples of two nations. Of Vietnam and of the United States. This war is already costing the American people, the treasure of so many of our young people, 500 casualties, as well as great financial losses. Now I am letting you know that I am going to be there for you every step of the way. And that we will either bring these other Democratic candidates into an identical position or we are going to sweep them aside as we go to the nomination.

Now tomorrow, at 3:00 this morning, I'll be on my way to New Hampshire to show you that I'm not going to miss a beat, waste any time or get any sleep. And what I will be talking about as I arrive in New Hampshire is an issue that is greatly affecting the people in New England, and that is trade. And how people there are losing so many industries because of these trade agreements that have basically enabled giant corporations to just move jobs out of this country in quest of lower wages. Every working person in this country realizes that corporations are trying to drive down wages. So what we need to do is to raise this issue. I talked about here it in this state and I'm going to talk about it in New Hampshire as well. How urgent it is that the United States totally change the direction it is going on trade. And that it is urgent that we repeal NAFTA and the WTO and go back to bilateral trade conditioned on workers rights, human rights, and environmental quality principles. And I will continue our campaign for universal single payer not for profit health care.

So once again let's talk about you, let's talk about what you've done to help us win delegates. I cannot thank you enough. I'm ever so grateful for the demonstration that you have made of your commitment. Remember that it was 15% that enabled you to be able to stand here as a delegate or to recognize the work to gain a delegate in your precinct. That's an enormous statement of the work that was done in a campaign that most people said there wouldn't be any chance we could get numbers like that.

You accomplished something. Now think of what that means, as we keep that spirit going, as we communicate that courage and that love. I am so grateful for your support, I am so grateful for the contributions that you've made, and I will carry this goodwill and these wishes and this energy with me to New Hampshire to begin our campaign to take the message to New Hampshire and to get some more delegates! Thank you very much!"

=====================
WHAT YOU CAN DO TODAY

Call your local television stations and ask them to air Dennis' State of the Nation address, which is available to them via satellite live at 1:15 Eastern.
Give them this link: http://www.kucinich.us/pressreleases/pr_011904a.php

=====================
Keep an eye on the media!
http://kucinich.us/mediawatch.php

Contribute!
https://kucinich.kintera.org/contribute

[ozone_man]

81. Nice speech,

but he still sold his soul to the devil. Rationalize it anyway you want.

[goodhue]

83. well

Edwards has long been my number two, so I don't need to rationalize. Economic populism is the way to go.

[Ficus]

62. I caucused for Edwards

without apologies after my DK group wasn't viable. I like John Edwards and he's the only one who hasn't run a trashy campaign like my other two viable choices - Dean and Kerry.

[goodhue]

82. way to go!

Edwards indeed is very much like DK when he speaks about helping the poor and the left behind rather than focus energy on other candidates.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

73. He sold out. Too bad.

His making a deal with a pro-war candidate like Edwards stinks. He would have done less harm if he'd done a deal with Lieberman.

[Nadienne]

74. That would have been hilarious

Lieberman, who insists the world is much, much safer now that Saddam is captured. Lieberman, who is against pro-choice and gay rights. I think Kucinich has more in common with Dean.

[youngred]

79. Nope

Look at it position for position. DK matches more with Edwards than he does the moderate Dean.

[Tinoire]

75. Let's not discuss selling out

Unless you really want to

Afghanistan. Yugoslavia. 13 years of Iraq. Columbia. Palestine.

Not a peep from Dean, from Clark, or from any other candidate up there who supported every single one of those actions (except Sharpton but he's a fringe candidate!).

Not a peep.

But now, just because, it's fashionable to be anti-war, we're supposed to accept that simultaneously "anti-this-war" "pro-occupation" candidates and their supporters are somehow entitled to cast stones.

Words will never hurt us. We know where we stand on the balance of things.

Kucinich did exactly what we wanted him to do. He got himself and us a platform to express our ideas.

And we want it badly because he's the ONLY one speaking to the majority of our ideas.

[Tinoire]

76. Jeezuz Christ. Get a grip n/t

[Tinoire]

92. Oh and this post was not directed to KK/

It was directed, out of total frustration yesterday, to most Dean supproters on this thread. I couldn't (and still can't) stand to see the gloom and doom and disappointment. You guys did great in Iowa. Keep going like that and you've got a winner. Don't give in. I know you won't anyway! No way you guys came this far to let this deflate you.

[mvd]

85. No, because..

in his view, there really isn't that much difference between the foreign policies of the candidates.

[anti-bush]

86. I was in Iowa, and was told about the deal on Sunday

I was a volunteer at the Edwards campaign, and was told about the deal on Sunday. The deal was to move camps ONLY if Edwards or Kucinich were not viable. The deal did not involve moving supporters from a viable group to a group that wasn't viable.

There is no sell out at all, because once your group is not viable, you can either go home or support another candidate. The groups were advised that Kucinich hoped his group would support Edwards if he was indeed viable. That's it.

I can assure you that Kerry, Gephardt, and Dean precinct captains were told which group to try to move their people to if their candidate wasn't viable. That is how caucuses work. Just because Kucinich and Edwards had a deal, it doesn't make it a sellout. All the candidates were telling their non-viable groups where to go.

[goodhue]

87. thanks for the voice of reason n/t

[Tinoire]

90. That was crystal clear from the start. Purposefully misunderstood but

crystal clear. Thank you for stating that clearly for all.
Peace


And thank you for co-operating with us.

[HazMat]

91. Who says Edwards got all of the Kucinich supporters

even with the "deal" ? What the results showed is that Iowans don't listen to the pundits, polls or party bosses (most of which were in Dean's favor), and I doubt they simply went to Edwards just because there was a "deal". From what I know, many Kucinich supporters had Kerry as their second choice, mainly due to his proven liberal record, especially on domestic issues, and it's likely many of them contributed to Kerry's victory.