What's happened, from a Dean supporter.

[hellhathnofury]

They beat us up for three months, stab after stab, none sticking in, but that's not the goal. The goal of it all is to give the voter a bad impression, it doesn't matter if they have specific reasons. All they've got to do is vote for you, nothing more. Mr. Edwards and Clark tried to let the others do it for them. Clark even dodged the debates, god forbid a general get blood on his hands. Dean got Gored.

Then they went positive, take polls, find what resonates, doesn't matter if it's not realistic, steal the other guys lines, nobody important will notice, much less tell. Don't ask hard questions, make it easy, let me give my speech.

I'm not going to stand for it and Howard sure as hell is not.

They run on polls, not people.

Now they're shocked that he's still the same old Howard, how dare he yell a little bit at the rally? He should be humble, concede defeat, don't be blunt, don't be honest, fake it a bit, the voters like that. Has it really been that long since the days of Harry Truman?
Does everyone have to be the same bland politician? Not the least disconcerting, pleasant, earth-toned.

God help us if we fail.

"Carry the battle to them. Don't let them bring it to you. Put them on the defensive. And don't ever apologize for anything."
Harry S Truman

"You want a friend in Washington? Get a dog."
Harry S. Truman

"When given the choice between a Republican and a Democrat acting like a Republican the voters will always choose the real thing,"
Harry S Truman

[ALago1]

1. Look, I am a Dean supporter...

I contributed to his campaign. As a poor college student it was a big sacrifice to send him some dough. But that speech was not the way to win over independents and new voters. He scared me. He truly did. If a supporter (although not absolute #1) could be taken aback by such a performance, think of a person just seeing him for the first time.

[hellhathnofury]

4. So you like Kerry's contrived one-liners?

I want someone real and I have a feeling the voters really do too, but half of those people don't vote. I'm not about to dive to the bottom to be king of a relative ant hill.

[Guaranteed]

5. It's over. He knows it, we know it.

The Iowans have proved that the Democrats are simply scared. Case closed, Bush wins!

Let's all forget about the damned election and have a drink.

[ALago1]

14. Dems are scared?

Would that explain the awesome turnout tonight?

I think we're ready for a fight and want to put someone up there who will hold their own during prime time!

Dean hasn't shown me that he can do this yet...

[hellhathnofury]

16. My feeling is that alot of that was Dean GOTV and media hype.

There was a fight, people came.

[Guaranteed]

23. "Hold their own???"

How the hell is Kerry gonna criticize Bush's foreign policy when Kerry helped to authorize the war in the first place?

You actually think that this is going to be a fight? This is going to be ridiculous! For every criticism Kerry has for Bush, Bush is going to come back and say, "Well, then why did you vote for it?" Or, "Well, then why did you support that?" Or, "Well, then why didn't you say something at the time?" It's gonna be so stupid. Bush, of all people, is going to make Kerry---KERRY...an extremely intelligent man--- look stupid, simply because Kerry didn't have the courage to do what he knew to be right.

[DjTj]

53. um...

Kerry did say everything he needed to say when he voted for the IWR.

http://www.independentsforkerry.org/uploads/media/kerry-iraq.html

Read the bill and read the floor statements from all the Democratic Senators who voted for the IWR. Bush misled the Congress and misled the American people and he do what Congress expected him to do.

Besides, IWR != Foreign Policy. It's about the image of America around the world that Bush is projecting. The people are mad, but it's not just about Iraq, and I think Kerry articulated it very well in Iowa.

[Nazgul35]

31. Awesome turnout?

what was it.....10-11%?

That is what we are reduced too....that is awesome?

[demdave]

41. Make mine gin and tonic. I disagree with your statement though.

I don't see where Iowa is such a bellwether state. I mean, "as goes Iowa, so goes the nation" was never a saying I have heard before. The caucus system in Iowa does not reflect the results of an actual election. It cuts off at the 15% support level and also encourages the redistribution of `the less than 15% people. This is not a bad thing but it is how it works. I think Gephart jumped the gun and should have seen at least one election.


I hope this doesn't nix the drink. :toast:

[Guaranteed]

45. I understand what you're saying

but the numbers are ridiculous. 38% Kerry, 35? Edwards? Something like that. And 18% Dean. The voters have roundly rejected fighting Bush. They're not up for it, and the only explanation that I can think of is that they're scared.

[hellhathnofury]

47. dupe

[hellhathnofury]

48. So show them, the water is okay, trust me on this one.

Someone has to take the lead.

[lastknowngood]

9. we don't need independents we need democrats

If you cant get your base you lose period. If his speech scares you just watch the SOTU tomorrow night and watch the fascism ring.

[drfemoe]

55. do yourself a favor

watch the speech again. cspan had it on with some decent sound guys working the mixer board (or whatever they call it these days). The cnn version sounded rather shrill. The cspan version was juuuust right. cnn also skipped the first part where Harkin worked the crowd into a frenzy before Dean ever took the mike .. context. Don't give up based on a bad sound mix or by missing the part cnn cut out. If you still want to move on, may you walk on many warm sands.

[lancdem]

2. I'm sorry

but I don't agree with your analysis. It's not a good sign when you blame everyone else for your candidate's problems. I'm ABB, BTW.

[Guaranteed]

3. The Democrats are scared.

Except us Dean supporters, of course. But, we don't count anymore, anyway.

Basically, most Dems wish they could just find a robot to send out there and take the beating that Bush is going to give them. Of course, best-case-scenario, in their opinion, would be for the robot to have a fairly pro-Bush voting record, so it doesn't get beat up that much. It'll lose, they know- it may as well not even be out there. Why "protest" so much? LOL!!! BUT, at least they won't be humiliated by sending someone out there that they really believe in, and having THEM lose! Man, that would be embarassing, believing in someone that the media just cuts down as another damned "liberal."

[hellhathnofury]

7. Exactly. I'm really starting to be ashamed of the cowardice that has

consumed our once great party. You never win a fight by sending the most pleasant guy out there.

[Democat]

52. Cowardice and Democrats go hand in hand since Clinton left

Our party is in a bad place right now - we are represented by a bunch of chickens who don't want to upset anyone, especially Bush or any other Republicans.

[shoopnyc123]

8. ...Honey, that old way will not work...

against Bush. Bush and Rove would chew both Kerry and Edwards with, "how did YOU vote, Senator"? End Of Story.

[eblack101]

42. Because You Knowingly Lied to Us!

Shoopnyc & Friends,

I agree with you, shoop, that Dean is the right man to fight Bush; and I agree with you as well that it's going to be a drag out, no holds barred battle to the death (at least the death of truthful rhetoric and principled combat).

But I'm for taking Bush out, and if our party chooses Kerry or Edwards to do it, then I'm right behind them. I'll take all the support I've been giving Dean, and throw it all behind the new nominee, and the devil take the hindermost.

Kerry and Edwards can fight with the same weapon that Dean is going to use. You(Bush)knowingly lied to Congress and the rest of the country. You and a small cabal of operatives waist deep in the defense and oil industries planned all along to invade Iraq (PNAC), and you re-arranged the truth, you lied to a Congress that trusted America's President to level with them and think of the nation 1st.

I'll tell you, Shoop, by the time these guys are actually in the ring, there will be a genuine movement afoot in the nation to remove Bush from office as 1/either a gross incompetent feathering his own nest and that of his corrupt cronies, or as an out and out traitor and war profiteer.

sincerely,
eblack101

[Guaranteed]

46. I like your perspective.

I hope you're right.

[shance]

12. Totally. A friend of mine said she couldnt believe the assault on Dean

by the media.

She said it was kind of sadistic, like they were enjoying being establishment whores and picking on the easy target tonight. Shes undecided, but even SHE saw the absurdity and immature antics of it all.

[mitchum]

13. This Democrat isn't scared (not even of your ranting, choleric hero)

[hellhathnofury]

15. And you shouldn't be. I don't know why Edwards and Kerry were,

hell Bush got them to vote for his repugnant stuff.

[mitchum]

21. Pity that Govs (of tiny states or any other) don't have that luxury

[hellhathnofury]

22. What luxury? Gov's win much more often than anyone else.

[mitchum]

26. Sorry, I meant voting on Congressional legislation

for or against

[regnaD kciN]

18. The robot they seek...

Basically, most Dems wish they could just find a robot to send out there and take the beating that Bush is going to give them. Of course, best-case-scenario, in their opinion, would be for the robot to have a fairly pro-Bush voting record, so it doesn't get beat up that much.

I suspect that the DLCers, specifically, want a robot who can be portrayed as "liberal," so that, when the loss comes, they can blame it on "extremist party activists," who prevented the Democrats from "moving to the center." Then you will see a purge you won't believe, where everyone to the left of Zell Miller will be described as the problem, and the solution will be, as it was after McGovern's '72 defeat, to stack the Democratic Party leadership positions with "centrists" who will make sure that liberals are kept under wraps for the next four years at least.

Unfortunately, if they can't have Howard Dean, John Kerry would be the ideal for these people. In fact, he may be even better -- after the election, they can go on and on about the futility of nominating a "Massachusetts liberal," a "friend of Ted Kennedy," and a man who led an organization to "give aid and comfort to the North Vietnamese while our soldiers were still dying in the fields." Of course, the fact that Kerry was one of those soldiers, or his support of Bush's Iraq blank check, will be forgotten -- the only thing that will count is that he's from Massachusetts, so he must be unacceptably liberal...

:-(

[hellhathnofury]

19. They don't want one bit of Dean. Look at his speech tonight,

we're going to come on strong, tommorow we start fighting back.

If there's one person in this race who can win, it's Dean. Clark has a chance but the base doesn't completely trust him yet. He's got to prove himself.

[Guaranteed]

28. Four hours ago that was exactly what I thought

Then these caucuses happened. How can my faith in the American people be destroyed for a SECOND time? It's gotta be a miracle.

[hellhathnofury]

32. They damn near engineered a Dean demise,

do you think it's just Democrats going through records? The Washington establishment and media is terrified of him. Now they're being smug, they think we're down, I intend to prove otherwise.

[Guaranteed]

36. Awww man

don't hit me with that.

Don't you see that they don't want to fight? Our OWN PARTY doesn't want to fight!!

[hellhathnofury]

39. You're right, they don't want a fight and that's why Dean got undermined.

[Guaranteed]

49. Well....

I don't wanna be like them.

What the hell, though? They're not coming around. What the hell are we gonna do to get them up off their knees?

[hellhathnofury]

51. Stand up first. That's what leadership is about.

[LTR]

6. I don't get it

I'm shocked about all the attacks on my preferred candidate by Dean supporters, and the gall they have complaining about being unmercifully attacked.

You know what they say about glass houses and stones, don't ya?

[hellhathnofury]

11. We didn't start the tit for tat.

We surged in the summer, got crowned in the fall by the media, and have been getting thwacked hence forth. SOA, voting for Republicans, being a defense lobbyist, it's not much, and it's been pretty soft.

The house ain't much, I think it needs to go down. Look at what 1964 did for the Republicans.

[Nazgul35]

38. You're projecting....

you are taking the nasty atmosphere here in DU between certain idiots from all camps and trying to compare that to the horrendous beating that Dean took (as the study that was discussed on DU shows) from the media in the electorate at large.....

Here there is a give and take....there is no opportunity for response from Dean supporters in the SCLM.....

Most of what occurred here was frustration at not being able to get to the real sources of our anger.....the media pundits....


Buckle up......Dean's dead (in their eyes)....they are going to come after fresh meat...and that meat is named Edwards, Kerry and Clark.....let's see how that works out.....

[cthrumatrix]

10. The Dr. was firing up his team...get commited ...get energized and stay

focused....that's leadership...yes he's passionate. He will regroup with his supporters and re-double the efforts.

Your comments are right on. He knows what happened and the game is now on a primary turf in 50 states where he has good momentum.

Nobody needs to tell anyone on past Iowa success...let's keep the message of change and hope ...we move on.

[imax2268]

17. It's not over yet...

Dean is still in it and will still be in it until the end...

[pacifictiger]

24. Dean has been fielding attacks

from all sides over the past month, so I'm not surprised the undecided voters in Iowa did not go to him. All the candidates have their strong points - if they decided to run as a team they could win against Bush hands down. What sets Dean apart in my opinion, is that he is the one coming up with the new ideas. The others have all ridden on his message coat-tail while he was fielding the attacks. I have been watching c-span (thank god for that where you can get the non pundit, unspun message) and have been very impressed by his creative ideas combined with his realism of how things really are. He is succinct and direct in speech, but I suspect too many people like more of the touchy-feely bedside manner that Edwards brings to the table.

[hellhathnofury]

20. kick

:nuke:

[demon67]

25. Honest to God

About that speech . . . I was in the next room while my wife was watching Dean's speech on television. Not knowing what was on, I honestly asked her, "What are you doing watching professional wrestling?" She said, no, it's just Dean's speech. It was a lot of things, but presidential it was not.

[hellhathnofury]

27. Define presidential.

Is this a campaign or a petting zoo?

[demon67]

34. It is a campaign

a very serious campaign to convince voters, not just that you are against Bush, but that they can feel confident and positive and safe with you in office. To me, being "presidential" means that people can trust that you will make wise decisions, use sound judgment and act based on logic, not just emotion. Dean can convey passion, no doubt. But can he convey these other qualities? Only time will tell.

[hellhathnofury]

35. Bush, Clinton.

Bush was dumb and constantly said stupid things, Gennifer Flowers broke a few weeks before NH.

Presidential standard is all relative.

[demon67]

37. True

But it was how Clinton handled the Gennifer Flowers incident that made him appear presidential. Again, calm, cool and collected. Likewise, Bush said (and says) stupid crap all the time, but always in a confident, calm and self-assured manner.

[hellhathnofury]

40. What's wrong with excitement, passion?

I'm not about to be calm when there's no real scandal in my house. It's a Goring.

[mikehiggins]

29. The paranoia in this is charming. n/t

[hellhathnofury]

33. Paranoia? Reality. What's been on the front page of the newspapers?

Since when was it not the "anti-Dean" camp.

[quaker bill]

30. Amen friend

I love Harry Truman's stuff.

"When given the choice between a Republican and a Democrat acting like a Republican the voters will always choose the real thing,"

This is the message for 2004.

[Wonco_the_Sane]

43. Like the passion here but...

...as a Dean supporter, I'm taking a deep breath now. Cmon friends, it's Iowa. Nothing against Iowa (I'm in Ohio and voting on Super Tuesday) but it's only Iowa. Sorry to see Gephardt leave, I think it's early for that myself, but Dean has LOTS of life yet.



Good luck to all Dems, I will support you when it counts.

[hellhathnofury]

44. We do have some life, but we're going to have to fight....

media perception that we're dead and that starts now.

Gephardt is gone, one less knife in our back.

I'm ABB too, but I'd like to win.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

50. "One less knife in our back."

I like that!

[hellhathnofury]

54. The truth is public domain, right?

[Snivi Yllom]

56. media whores

CNN and MSNBC especially did a humber on Dean.

MSNBC was joking about Dean last night like he was a joke. Disgusting.