Jesse Jackson: Kerry's "Early Concession Betrayed the Trust of the Voters"

[Q]

Jesse Jackson: Kerry's "Early Concession Betrayed the Trust of the Voters"


Tuesday, November 30th, 2004
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=04/11/30/1526202

As voter fraud in Ukraine's election dominates the headlines, we take a look at the U.S. election and the widespread reports of voter irregularities in Ohio. We speak with the Rev. Jesse Jackson who is calling for an Ohio recount and an attorney filing a lawsuit in the Ohio Supreme Court this week to contest the election.


We turn now to election news: Democracy Now co-host Juan Gonzalez writes in today's New York Daily News:

"Voter fraud in the Ukraine? Give me a break.

"It has been a month now and we still don't have a clear count of the votes for our own presidential race from the state of Ohio.

"For those who may have forgotten, Ohio supposedly assured George W. Bush a second term in the White House - only the most important job on the planet.

"The morning after the election, we were told Bush was ahead of John Kerry in that state's unofficial count by 139,000 votes, or 2.5%.

"At the time there were 155,000 uncounted provisional ballots and an unknown number of overseas ballots, but Kerry concluded they would not produce enough of a margin to erase his deficit, so he promptly conceded.

"At the same time, given the bitter Democratic memories of the 2000 Florida fiasco, he assured his supporters he would fight to have every vote properly counted this time.

"Within a few days, other problems began to show up in Ohio's preliminary tally."

Rev. Jesse Jackson, civil rights leader. He is the founder of the Rainbow/PUSH coalition, a progressive organization fighting for social change. This past Sunday, he appeared at a rally of over 500 in Columbus to publicly endorse a presidential recount in Ohio. Jackson's Rainbow Push Coalition has now joined with the Green and Libertarian Parties in demanding the recount.

Cliff Arnebeck, public interest lawyer who is filing a lawsuit in the Ohio Supreme Court this week contesting the election. He is co-chair of the Alliance for Democracy and Chairman of the Legal Affairs Committee of Common Cause in Ohio.

www.democracynow.org

[Cary]

1. Neo-cons continue to attack us.

We don't need infighting.

[mogster]

61. I agree very much with your point

But a fair questioning of Kerry's early accept of the election result is a part of the debate too.

No point in turning it into a blame-game like Jackson does, though. Better focus on the need to get acceptance for the fact that the election WAS flawed, and that some appropriate action should be taken by the democratic system to return the voters confidence in it.

[Tomee450]

79. Well

I think Jesse is expressing exactly what many people feel. It doesn't hurt to tell the truth. I never cared that much for Kerry but voted for him anyway and encouraged other people to do so. Many people including me, feel that Kerry let them down. It was shocking that he conceded so quickly.

[lateo]

2. Kerry did indeed betray us.

How could he just give in so quickly. Not only that he went into hiding immediately afterwards...

:wtf:

[comradebillyboy]

3. john kerry, a real fighter

NOT.

[elehhhhna]

4. Jesse stated what many think. I agree.

[uppityperson]

5. Exactly and please don't flame me for feeling let down

I know there have been many many threads of "wait and see" and I will apologize if I am wrong, but I felt very betrayed the morning after the election. Why not just truly wait and see? (That is a rhetorical question 'cause I can read all the past posts on this)

[goclark]

6. Surprised that Jesse said that but he must know more

than he is telling us.

Really in our heart of hearts we want to believe that John Kerry will pick us up in his arms and rescue us from this horror story.

Maybe Jesse is trying to give him a reason to speak out and explain what he has been doing. Perhaps he is setting the stage for John to enter the battle.

I love John Kerry and Jesse Jackson.

My prayer is that something breaks quickly and Kerry will rescue us.

He is a good and great leader!

[Stand and Fight]

11. I feel your pain.

But let's face it, friend, Johnny Kerry ain't gonna be reporting for duty. He has stopped fighting and we're holding the fort for a leader who isn't going to return.

[Cheswick2.0]

7. Kerry is just waiting to do that "strong closer" thing he does

He doesn't want to look like a soreloserman. I have 10 times the respect for Gore. If only the party had not been so worried about their image in 2000, we wouldn't even be posting about this subject.

[madrchsod]

8. edwards said every vote would count

the next day kerry said-we don`t care. get over it....betrayed? no we were fucked over.

[emulatorloo]

53. Kerry said nothing of the sort. . .you act as if you are quoting him

but you are simply putting words in his mouth.

[Stand and Fight]

9. Jesse Hit it on the Head

I totally agree with Jesse Jackson. I, however, do not believe that he is setting up the stage for anything. John Kerry has indeed abandoned his supporters, and as much as some may hate to hear it -- he ain't coming back to wage the good fight. John Kerry has given up and has set his sights on "holding Bush accountable" for the next four years. As of right now, he has my vote in 2008 if he runs again depending on who the other Democratic contenders are -- from the names I've seen floating around, Kerry has my support. Nonetheless, that does not mean I don't feel betrayed by his DAMN early concession.

[kentuck]

10. People knew Bush would declare himself the "victor" at first opportunity

He tried to convince everyone of the "inevitability" of it all. In my opinion, Kerry fell for it.

[bush_is_wacko]

75. My exact words re: this election were!

BUSH WILL HAVE TO BE DRAGGED KICKING AND SCREAMING FROM THE WH, LIKE THE 2 YEAR OLD CHILD HE APPEARS TO BE! HE WILL LOCK THE DOORS OF THE WH, BEFORE THE ELECTION IS OVER AND DECLARE VICTORY.

Not too far from the truth, from where I sit!

[David Dunham]

12. Guys, get real. Bush has GAINED VOTES in the OH provisional ballot count.

Kerry actually lost Ohio, which is in fact a fairly Republican state.
There is not a single Democratic statewide elected official in Ohio -- not at the state or federal levels.

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[kentuck]

14. So?

Let's hurry and concede ??

[David Dunham]

17. Kerry actually lost Ohio, whether you guys like it or not.

[Q]

16. So then...we should only take investigations seriously...

...if Kerry has a chance to win? No...this is about the NEXT election and the future of democracy. Free and fair elections? Let's make this more than just a slogan.

[goclark]

19. Blackwell said?

That the Democrats were in leadership positions to preside over the elections.

Blackwell said that one Democratic official told him that he would never let anyone take votes away from Black people.

HA!

There was too much smoke in Ohio to not have some fires.

Jesse said that it is not about the WINNING it is about the STEALING!

I'm sticking with Jesse thank you.

[Stand and Fight]

22. Right.

And I am right there with you. Even though my feelings on the matter have fallen into a great nadir.

[Pepper32]

41. Exactly! n/t

[ecstatic]

21. so what! they still need to count all the votes

people waited in line for over 9 hrs! Don't expect them to do it again with that attitude.

[Stand and Fight]

23. Yeah...

I think someone needs to come outta the closet. People, what we have here is a bad case of Republicus Hidaindaclosita.
:evilgrin:

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[David Dunham]

26. Numbn*ts. I raised over $1 million for Kerry but he lost. Get over it.

I co-chaired a large lawyers committee for Kerry. Between Feb 1 and election day, we raised $2.6 million for Kerry. But the fact is he LOST because more people voted for Bush. We need to accept that fact, as Kerry has, and move on to the 2006 campaigns,.

[zulchzulu]

43. Whaaahhh!!!! We here at DU want a circular firing squad!!!

Kidding... thanks for your good work.

I also put in a LOT of time and money into the Kerry campaign since mid-2003 and have come to the conclusion we need to move on and concentrate on the 2006 elections as well as other issues like electronic voting reform.

We can't count air and make it votes. We were gamed. We just need to grow up, pick ourselves up and get back into the fight.

[LittleClarkie]

46. I'll go along with the "grow up" part

Not a ton of maturity abounding these days.

I appreciate all the work that is being done now to find as much fraud as possible. Uncover every story (thanks Madsen). Make Bush look as illegitimate in his mandate as possible.

And in the weeks and months ahead, we will need to work for real reform of the election system.

But you're right. We won't get the air votes back. We can't count the ones who were suppressed into not voting.

Why everything has to be done NOW or we're all DOOMED is beyond me. This looks like alotta work to expect it to be done NOW. We're not likely to get a Prez Kerry out of this. But JJ says it's not about him. So why blame Kerry? He's the one who got gamed first. It's got to be a knife in the gut to find out you actually probably won, and there's little you can do about it.

Yes, I put in alot of time and work and what little money I could cough up too. But as upset and disappointed as I am, I refuse to turn on my guy. And as you can see by my name, I was a Clarkie in the primaries.

[Pepper32]

62. Why we must do something now

I can think of a few reason off the top:

1) The draft--- they are NOW harrasing/enticing our kids to join the military, B*sh needs more warm bodies.

2) Crazy Laws-they are being passed very quickly. For instance the mandatory "Mental Health Screening" for kids without parental consent. Randi Rhodes talked about this yesterday. They want to drug our kids and not allow them to go school, if parents refuse.

3) 2006 Election-If we do nothing now what makes anyone think we will EVER have another fair election? The black votes will continue to be at the back of the bus, uncounted. I want my vote to count!
I just hope that the people who were prevented from voting, do not let this scare them from voting in the future. Black people or Democrats.

[LittleClarkie]

77. I can see where you're coming from with one and two

but three is two years away. What makes you think that if the job doesn't get done in a month, that people won't be fighting for the next two years to fix the vote. That's what I'm getting at. Some of this may take more time than that. If it doesn't get done in a month, that won't mean that it's not being worked on for the next election.

[Pepper32]

80. Preventing a draft & Crazy laws are the most important issues NOW for....

...for the sake of our kids.

If we can prove fraud and voter suppression (voter suppression is an easy one) and get John Kerry into office, we can possibly prevent a draft or these crazy laws from taking effect via VETO power. So yes, for the sake of our children we need to do it NOW.

I don't want my son being forced to fight the chimp's war or being drugged. That indeed is my number one priority and that's saying a lot because I also want my ballot picked up from the back of the bus and counted. Am I wrong for feeling this way?

[angrydemocrat]

68. Amen LittleClarkie!

I have to agree with you. I feel we need to get to the bottom of the fraud and intimidation issues still just as much as anyone. Will it change the results of this election probably not but people can hope until there is nothing left to hope for. I wish it would but even if it doesn't I will not turn my back on John Kerry and start playing the blame game and making all the nasty remarks as so many around here do. It worse than a bunch of spoilt brats that when they don't get what they want, when they want it they start their whining, name calling, and making nasty remarks. Yes there are many that need to grow up. I would also like to say that I respect JJ but him blaming Kerry over what has happen is ridiculous. I have to say JJ would have been one of the last one's I would have thought of starting to blame Kerry for this mess. The system is broken and it has to be fixed and that is one of the thngs Kerry has committed to getting done. And like so many others I worked hard to get this man elected, I donated alot of money, and it hasn't been easy since all this other has happen. But I will never turn on the man calling him a quitter when I know full well he is not, I will not be so childish that because everything didn't go the way I wanted it, when I wanted it to, or the man didn't do things the way other's here thought he should and when they thought he should to suit them and start calling him names, making nasty remarks, and saying I want my money back. It is a daily fight around here over this but I have come to the point I don't let it bother me because I know who John Kerry is , what he stands for, and that he is a true American hero that loves his country and the people in it, and this is why the man has chosen to serve this country since he was a young boy and will continue to do so. No matter what people around here have to say or anywhere's else for that matter these are the facts about the man that wether they like him or not they or no one else will ever change. So there are those like me that realize the man is worth fighting for and at the same time you will always have those who refuse to take the blinders off.

[Pepper32]

71. Jackson blamed Kerry? Really?

I didn't see where Jackson blamed Kerry for this MESS. I did see him say what MANY are thinking. John Kerry conceded too soon. Who knows why? How that translates into blaming Kerry, is a mystery.

It's clear Jackson believe fraud was committed using the machines. And it's clear who he blames for these paperless machines, REPUBLICANS. It's also clear who challenged and suppressed black voters. Jackson did not blame John Kerry for this tainted election. However, Kerry did promise he would make sure every vote is counted. And many people feel that when Kerry conceded he weakened our position. And now were struggling to get the votes counted.

However, I still believe this will all become apparent soon. John Kerry is a smart man and a former prosecutor.

Thus, my opinion since Nov 2nd, has been this -he stepped out of way to get proof of fraud and prevent a possible civil war. I don't think he was just protecting his image. At least I hope not. However, as time goes on the picture will become clearer. I just hope time proves me right. :nopity:

[LittleClarkie]

76. I guess we saw blame because of "early concession" and "betrayed"

As if Kerry, who after all is the one who conceeded, therefore betrayed.

I'm at work now, so I still can't watch the vid. But if it's apparent that this is not what Jesse meant, I'm sorry. I should hope not anyway.

I'm also still unclear as to why reusing a tactic from 2000, one that didn't work, would benefit us this time around. God bless Al Gore, but what he did in 2000 didn't work. It may have made people feel like he was fighting for them, because they could see it. But it was still a failed strategy.

I agree with your last statement, obviously. Except if things don't come to light soon, it will likely be because there wasn't enough direct evidence. Even then, I won't believe the fight is over. As Kerry said on video, no matter the outcome of the election, we must continue to fight.

[Pepper32]

81. Well, if you see JJ is blaming, it's not for the BBV or Voter Suppression.

...it's for the turning a blind eye to it, that I believe Jackson is saying Kerry betrayed us. He is not "blaming" Kerry for the act itself but for not taking a stronger position to do something about it.
It's kind of like witnessing a crime and driving down the street and screaming I will help you and never calling the police or doing anything significant too help.

I don't know if this is what Kerry is doing or not. I'm just going to wait and see. However, I do know that Kerry weakened our position when he conceded by making it so much harder for us to get a timely and well funded recount in OHIO (hopefully, it was for a good reason).

If Kerry had not conceded we would have been able to use the money that was raised to contest the election and we also would have gotten a recount started faster. And just maybe, millions of people would have been pissed off enough to stand up and protest if they heard John Kerry say, "they did it to us again". The exit polls did not match our election results that was reason enough, to halt everything. Just ask Powell, he felt this way about the Ukraine election. That's the point few people are missing.

Protecting our IMAGE should never come before fiercely protecting Democracy. Just ask the Ukraine's!

[The Straight Story]

78. I had an idea on another thread:

Let's push hard to get diebold machines into the congress for their votes.See how fast things get attention. Get the word out to as many rethugs as we can and just wait for them to say 'that is a bad idea, no paper trail, how do we know who voted how and that it was not changed?'.

We could even scare them more by telling them we have a better voting machine, made some progressives in San Franciso (company run by a gay couple and funded by soros or moore, just to add to the overall affect). See how fast these people tell us how bad it is...maybe a little light bulb will go off in their head :)

[Pepper32]

83. LOL, I am all for that idea! E.O.M

n/t

[Name removed]

85. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sandnsea]

51. The machines don't work

The voting process is unfair. The registration process needs updating.

These problems need to be addressed and if we don't do it now, it won't get done. And if we don't do it at all, 2006 will be more of the same. Maybe Ohio is a Republican state because Democrats just never get a fair chance to vote.

[TruthIsAll]

86. The machines don't work? LOL. They work fine for Repukes!

Come on. Get real.

The machines work TOO well when they're programmed to steal your vote.

[sandnsea]

101. You finally have evidence????

You got the vote stealing code, did ya? The best we've got is the machines don't work and they don't work all over the country. Keep yelling fraud with no proof and we'll have this same mess in 2006 and 2008...

[robbedvoter]

55. I don't care if you are John Kerry himself - disrespect the voters

and the numbnuts is you,
Watch this
http://www.boingboing.net/2004/11/06/electionday_footage_.html
and don't expect a vote from anyone in the future.
Go spend your 2 million in Ukraine - aparently W allows democracy there.

[Pepper32]

63. Amazing picture. If only that were us... sigh I remember when there use

...to be a time, that WAS us.

Democracy used to be worth fighting for, it still is for me. Apparently, not enough for 2 million (AT THE VERY LEAST) to Stand UP and FIGHT!

[Name removed]

84. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[elehhhhna]

39. Troll-a-rama! Cleanup in aisle 7!

[Bush was AWOL]

27. While I agree that Kerry lost

I wanted to point out that those Republicans that are state officials are pretty moderate, and recieve many votes from Democrats.

[Pithy Cherub]

15. Jesse is also laying down a political marker.

While he is not a monolithic leader of the African American community, he does have a certain amount of resonance. Anybody who wants that demographic is going to have to prove that they will stand and fight. Gore's stock has actually risen becuase he did fight! Kerry/Edwards, geez... throw em a biscuit for rolling over!

[Stand and Fight]

18. You got that right.

n/t

[ecstatic]

20. Finally, someone famous said it out loud nt

[Q]

25. You can watch the interview on Democracy Now...

...at this link: http://www.democracynow.org/streampage.pl

------

Note: it's near the end of the video.

This is a great interview...talking about 'extensive' fraud in Ohio.

Jackson: "We need the Constitutional Right to vote for president...we need an amendment to the Constitution." "The common people must rise up and demand that their votes are counted".

[goclark]

37. He is giving the signal,we must follow his words

Listen to his words folks.

I worked the civil right movement for too long not to really hear what he is saying!

He is telling us ,"Help me, I can't do this without you, it must be every single person that voted for Kerry to take to the streets.!


"The common people must rise up and demand that their votes are counted".

He is rallying the troops and he needs everyone NOW!

What can we do to help him?!!!

[dennis4868]

28. where is the john kerry.....

that turned his boat around in vietnam to save hos fellow troops.....he did not turn his boat around this time...he just kept on going and ignored our screams for help!

[ohioan]

95. You sure about that?

Kerry Team Seeks to Join Fight To Get Ohio County to Recount

Sen. John F. Kerry's presidential campaign asked an Ohio judge yesterday to allow it to join a legal fight there over whether election officials in one county may sit out the state's impending recount.

A pair of third-party presidential candidates, who said that reports of problems at the polls on Election Day are not being addressed, are forcing the Buckeye State to recount its entire presidential vote. But David A. Yost, a lawyer for Delaware County, just outside Columbus, won a temporary restraining order last week blocking any recount there. He told the Columbus Dispatch that a second count would be a poor use of county resources. President Bush won the mostly Republican area handily, unofficial results show.

Lawyers for the Kerry campaign asked to join Green Party presidential candidate David Cobb, Libertarian candidate Michael Badnarik and the National Voting Rights Institute in the fight to force the county to participate in the recount. "If there's going to be a recount in Ohio, we don't want it to exclude Delaware County or any other county that might decide to follow Delaware County's lead," Kerry lawyer Dan Hoffheimer said. "It should be a full, fair and accurate recount."

Washington Post, Wednesday, December 1, 2004

[Pepper32]

29. Oh well... I was trying to have faith HOWEVER...

if John Kerry does not step up anytime soon, I will NOT vote for him in 2008. I couldn't allow him to betray me again. :cry: I just hope something comes from all of this. At the very least, GET RID OF THE DAMN MACHINES! :grr:


Also, get rid of KKK challengers, LET BLACK PEOPLE VOTE. We are still American citizens the last time I checked.

COUNT THE BALLOTS AT THE BACK OF THE BUS. :grr:

[Stand and Fight]

32. They're bastards.

The whole lot of them up there -- they are never going to allow our votes to be counted so long as we stand for this crap. Jesse Jackson is at least up there fighting the good fight. I saw let every vote count -- not just yours and mine.

[Pepper32]

36. I agree

Let every vote COUNT, despite race or party affiliation.

It's sickening, this is 2004 going on 2005. And they seem to be reversing time.

[Mike L]

30. JJ is sooooooo credible.

[Q]

33. Sarcasm?

Certainly he's more credible than the Chimp in Chief?

If Democrats allow the obvious fraud of TWO ELECTIONS to go unexamined...we'll never again have faith in our democracy. And that's what democracy is all about: the ability to choose leaders to represent us.

Otherwise...we're just a damn banana republic.

[elehhhhna]

40. Third world Government at First World Prices!

[robbedvoter]

57. He was credible in 2000, he is credible today.

Sorry for intrerrupting your pleasant rolling over.

[zulchzulu]

31. Perhaps Jackson has a little magic ball that counts air to make votes

Maybe Jackson also doesn't know that a concession speech is not a legally binding agreement.

Jackson needs to redirect his energy to BBV instead.

[ecstatic]

34. don't attack the messenger nt

[Q]

35. Uh...why don't you actually listen to the interview before...

...you make such asinine comments? Jackson states that it's not about Kerry...but about actually making sure every vote counts. He goes on to talk about Republicans owning the companies that make the voting machines...kind of like the owner of a sports team also refereeing the game.

[zulchzulu]

38. Perhaps the subject line of the thread is misleading..no?

No, I didn't listen to the interview yet. I will. But I'm sure that the host of the interview made no mention to Jackson that Kerry conceded too soon with an interjection that a concession speech is not legally binding. That might require actual even-handed journalistic skills, which I find Democracy Now not to usually have.

As for your thread title and the responses that spawned from it, it sure looks like the typical mealy-mouthed Kerry bashing some people here at DU do as a knee-jerked Monday Morning Quarterback reaction.

Please bash the others that contributed to this thread that they need to listen to the interview.

Also, were you for Dean in the primaries? Curious....

[LittleClarkie]

44. I can't listen, I don't have RM. Mac doncha know

But considering the behavior of people last night toward Michael Moore, I am starting to think that some of these people will believe and turn on anyone if they don't understand what's going on.

It's like being surrounded by Left Wing Freepers sometimes in here.

If I have to staple myself to the floor, I'm not going anywhere. Still a John Kerry supporter. I've made my choice, and I haven't seen anything yet to change my mind.

[zulchzulu]

48. You can use RealMedia on a Mac...I do...

Free player link:
http://www.real.com/freeplayer/?rppr=npr

[Q]

50. You can download a copy of the Player on the linked DN site...

The campaign and election are essentially over...except for the investigation of fraud.

You have every right to continue to support Kerry...but it's unfair to suggest that those who didn't support Kerry or have changed their minds are 'left wing freepers'.

[Q]

49. The thread title is the title of the article on Democracy Now...

...and it's a direct quote from Jackson.

The complaint isn't about the concession not being 'legally binding'. It's that he didn't have to announce it while workers were out in the field trying to investigate what really happened.

Once again...the thread title is a quote from Jackson...and as you can see many agree with it.

The only reason that I suggested that YOU watching the interview is that you brought up subjects that you accused Jackson of not covering...but DID cover in the interview.

I didn't have a favorite in the primaries. But many of us who didn't exactly back kerry promised to hold our tongues after the primaries and during the campaign. We did so...but are now expressing our feelings about the campaign and candidate.

[LittleClarkie]

42. If it's not about Kerry, then is he calling him a betrayer or not?

I don't think the fraud was as obvious on Nov. 3 as it was in the days and weeks after. Work is being done.

Those who say he should do something: I wish they'd define what "something" is exactly.

It feels like everything is so compressed. I can't tell you how many "Do this NOW!!" threads I've seen in the last week. We're not going to enact legislation NOW. And the work is being done now.

What should John Kerry be doing "NOW?"

[ecstatic]

45. What he is saying is

This is about the people whose votes were not counted. However, Kerry had the power to insist--DEMAND--that the votes were counted. He had the power to do it, and instead opted to step aside and let the fraud go unchecked.

[LittleClarkie]

47. So 17000 lawyers are just twittling their doinkers

I think they're doing their best. But I think they were prepared for suppression, and a closer race that would need recounting, than outright fraud. That's what Madsen seemed to be saying a couple days ago.

I can forgive flat-footed. But it's good to hear they're meeting with and giving that reporter support.

Right now I'm still in the camp that thinks Kerry up front is the last thing we need. Al Gore tried that. God love him for the effort, a circus ensued. We don't need a circus.

[goclark]

54. Kerry needs to be lending support from behind

and I believe that he is doing that,he is just that kind of a man.

And,we must remember that Jesse got his start from putting pressure on the pedal and that is what he is doing.

Jesse can best rally his troops by saying things that Kerry could never get away with and that is fine.

This is a big tent and we must have big shoulders and not sweat the small stuff right now.

Jesse and Kerry need to know that they have our support!

They are eager to see that we are 100% behind them.
We must be the wind beneath their wings!

[Pepper32]

60. Umm...

If they were prepared for suppression, then why did so many of our/Black votes get trashed? Why did they allow so many Black people to be challenged/harrassed? I DO think they were twiddling their doinkers, as you say.

I saw the Michael Moore video and I don't recall seeing any lawyers in that video standing up and doing anything. They perhaps, took reports but I thought the whole point of them being there was to NOT allow this to happen. Perhaps, I misunderstood. Seems like the republicans ran the whole show. :puke:

https://voteprotect.org/index.php?display=EI
(Just look at all of the incidents of voter suppresion, it's crazy)

http://www.theneighborhoodnetwork.org/Video/Vote/Vote.htmlRMapNation&tab=ALL

And one more thing, why did one of the lawyers in Florida say Black Box Voting was just "causing trouble"?

I still believe in John Kerry and want him as my president (VERY MUCH SO) but I do question his efforts, so far. I think this will all become clearer as time goes on, I hope.

[LittleClarkie]

67. Indeed, as time goes on

Reasonable comment, especially your last sentence.

I think the lawyers were unsure of what they were supposed to be doing. Lack of training I think one said. I don't know if the vid shows lawyers or not. Somebody called the cops on the Republican observers. I was glad to see them ejected.

It looked to me like the voter registration lists were fucked.

I think that the higher ups in the party are having trouble wrapping their heads 'round this whole thing. That these people could be so damned evil.

[Pepper32]

69. I didn't see any lawyers in the MM video , perhaps someone can confirm?

...standing up to the challengers/observers, that is!

"Somebody called the cops on the Republican observers. I was glad to see them ejected."
<snip>

Yes, I saw that. I also saw that they stuck around (outside) and continued to harass black voters.

I agree, maybe the lawyers were unsure of what they were supposed to be doing. However, every effort should have been made to ENSURE they did, prior to the election. This was no game. And as history is showing us, in America (not Ukraine) we don't get a do over.

I believe Madsen said they were all business lawyers and NOT civil lawyers. Not sure if this is true or not. However if this is found to be true, it will raise many eyebrows.

[Lizzie Borden]

90. What Little Clarkie said. YES!

:)

[zulchzulu]

52. Absolutely untrue

Kerry has been continuing efforts to count the votes...to say he "opted out and let the fraud go unchecked" is a complete lie.

Here's a QuickTime link of his message on 11/9/04:
http://mfile.akamai.com/10211/mov/johnkerry.download.akamai.com/12645/111904_web_msg_qt_dsl.mov

RealMedia:
http://mfile.akamai.com/10211/rm/johnkerry.download.akamai.com/10211/111904_web_msg_real_dsl.ram

[Stand and Fight]

82. Video Posting Date

It was 11/19/2004

[ohioan]

96. Kerry joined the court fight on recounts - breaking news . . .

[robbedvoter]

58. Uh, SPEAKING UP?

http://www.nyobserver.com/pages/frontpage8.asp
Mr. Kerry, for instance—if he were smart, if he were truly forward-thinking and unselfish—could have changed what is now becoming the Master Narrative of the Election (a "mandate" based on "values" means: get pious or else). If he had made the speech I suggest (or some version of it), he could have changed the focus from Mr. Bush’s popular-vote win (only 51 percent anyway) to a narrative about the unresolved closeness of the margin. About how the country remains divided—at least electorally—rather than the false (based on misread, inaccurate exit polls) triumph of righteousness (and self-righteousness).

The Democratic Party would be exposing the scandal of the failure to reform our voting procedures to affirm fairness (no more four-hour lines in minority urban precincts, as in Ohio, and similar abuses) rather than getting its collective knickers in a twist over how to appease the intrusive, self-proclaimed moralists by discarding its principles.
snip

He made it all about him. All about how he’d look, about his image, perhaps about his future, his pathetic dream of running another inept campaign. What about his followers, who put their hearts into the campaign and were cheated of certainty so Mr. Kerry could bask in the goo-goo congratulations of the sappy and wrong-headed "spare the country" editorialists.

and the author of this, unlike me, doesn't even believe it was stolen. One last paragraph:

Still, after the nightmare of Florida and the destabilizing effect it had on the polity, we all deserve a fair and exact count, and Mr. Kerry should be out front fighting for it. Didn’t he run as the bemedaled hero unafraid to fight the Viet Cong and Al Qaeda? Should he really be afraid of Ohio? Turn that Swift boat back to shore, John. You’ve stranded your supporters. "

[Q]

64. Why concede at all? He could have waited a week without any backlash..

...but he chose to look 'graceful in defeat' rather than give the voters words of encouragement. It doesn't matter if people are working behind the scenes to count the votes...HE could have led the charge to FINALLY get something done about the horrible mess our system of elections has become.

A great leader leads by example. But Kerry seems more concerned about his image than leading the way to election reform.

[KerryDownUnder]

56. I want to believe that Kerry won, but...

The provisional votes are going to add a net of only 15,000 to 20,000 votes to Kerry. With Cuyahoga now reporting and if you take away the 4,000 votes that Bush received in "error" then Bush is still ahead by approximately 126,000 votes in OH with approximately 30,000 more validated provisional votes to count. Even if you give every single one of those votes to Kerry he is still behind by 96,000 and if you give every single one of the undervotes to Kerry he is still behind (and the chances of that happening are zero anyway).

[robbedvoter]

59. Please read #58 - even if he didn't, ignoring the fraud sets us up

for more abuse in the future. he sold us up to make himself acceptable to those who slimed him and will fleece and oppress us.

[KerryDownUnder]

65. I understand your point...

which makes the manner in which Kerry handled this issue even more confusing IMO. I guess I was just being unrealistic when I was hoping that Kerry would have made bigger gains with the provisional votes.

[Name removed]

66. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[angrydemocrat]

72. I can tell you don't know John Kerry

You don't know what he believe's in or what he stands for because if you did you would know your statement is total garbage. Kerry has worked all his life to get to where he is in his career. Kerry loves this country and has worked hard to serve this country since he was a young boy and continues to do so today. Kerry has always wanted to be president and that started well before Vietnam and the 1970's protests. Yes you have some that call him a traitor for what he did when he came back from Vietnam like the Jonh Kerry wanna be John O'neill so what. There are many that consider him a hero for what he did. Not many people had the gonands to step up to the plate and call it like it was and stand up to Nixon and all his croanies for their unjust war. There are people in my own family that were in Vietnam that greatly respect what Kerry did. They and other vietnam veterans I have talk to will tell you that it was Kerry who help bring a end to that war. Everything Kerry testified to was true and has been proven true over the years. They will also tell you that Kerry didn't blame the soldiers for what was happening he blamed the goverment. Kerry read staements from other soldiers during his testimony. All you have to do is read it all for yourself. Kerry hasn't one thing to be ashamed of when it comes to Vietnam and what he did when he came home so to say he was running for president because he thought it would look better in the eye's of many is total garbage. Who in the hell does he need to look better to all the jealous A$$ES that are John Kerry wanna be's like Fat A$$ John O'neill and Steve Garner that have both been proven liars and can't keep there stories straight. Give me a break. You need to take your blinders off.

[politicasista]

70. I have to agree with Jesse

I like many were suprised that he conceded so soon. It almost sent the message to us, like thanks, but it's over. Again, instead of trusting his own instincts, he listens to his lousy campaign advisors. I bet he is probably under some pressure to respond publicly to this. However, I feel like it is somewhat a slap in the face to young and old peeps who waited in long lines, rain or shine, to cast our votes for him. Now many here are turning on him because of that. We shall see.

[zulchzulu]

73. Those that didn't vote and BBV betrayed democracy, not Kerry

The point is we will never really know all the votes in Ohio, Florida and elsewhere where votes cannot be verified.

Those that didn't vote in heavy blue states because they figured their vote didn't count didn't help matters by shoring up the popular vote count. That would have made not conceeding a little easier than having 3+ million votes to make up for.

Jackson needed to get in the headlines and is possibly being chided by Moore to get more meat for the F 9/11 part Deux film. That's my guess. Add that Amy Goodman always likes to add her own agenda in the mix and wants people like Jackson to say stuff that will make the far Left even happier in their tinfoil hat dens.

Until Jackson can summon up some magical gismo that counts invisible and unverifiable votes that would be seen as credible evidence in a court of law to overturn the election results and also channel those that didn't vote to have their intentioned yet undone vote counted, it's best to work on using our efforts on election reform and the upcoming 2006 elections.

No wait... let's use our energy on each other and make Karl Rove even happier.

[Pepper32]

74. Those that didn't vote or were PREVENTED from voting, via Rep challengers?

I have never seen so many people determined to vote. They stood in the rain, cold, and heat (in Florida etc) for hours. No one should have to stand in line to do anything for 3 plus hours. So many people in minority precincts waited anywhere from 2 to 8 hours (many left without the opportunity to vote), that's just nuts! No, it's just racist!
https://voteprotect.org/index.php?display=EIRMapNation&tab=ALL

http://rwor.org/a/1258/elections-ohio-fraud.htm
Shades of Jim Crow:Election Intimidation 2004

http://www.blackcollegeview.com/vnews/display.v/ART/2004/11/05/418bf982c4518
Smith was one of countless voters who battled cold, rainy weather and mobility issues at Columbus polling sites.  The sites were housed at public schools, recreation centers and churches---all locations that should be “handicap accessible,” yet Smith and others discovered the label and the reality are two different entities.<snip>


I don't see anyone else other than Keith O (I appreciate him also) that is getting the MSM attention. Who's side are we on if we are criticizing Jackson for speaking out on the behalf of those that are the victims of voter suppression and BBV?

And no, John Kerry is not the blame for BBV or voter suppression (Jackson never said he was) but if time proves that Kerry turned a blind eye to it, will he still remain our hero? TIME WILL TELL

It's a fact, our position has been weakened since he conceded. But I think he did that for a good reason, which remains to be seen. I hope. However, in the meantime we struggle to get a timely recount.

I'm not bashing Kerry, I'm just taking a wait and see approach. Yes, I voice my concerns about his efforts but I do this to hopefully appeal to someone with power/knowledge (Kerry, Edwards, Elizabeth?) of this situation, to address it. Wishful thinking, perhaps. :shrug:

[Name removed]

87. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

88. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Q]

89. Please don't tell other DUers...

...to 'take their meds'. It's very childish and infers something sinister.

If you can't debate or think of something intelligent to say...then....well, you know the rest.

[zulchzulu]

91. His message was deleted..but here's the gist

Because I see the election results as how not enough people voted as well as not enough votes counted and that many votes are untraceable, somehow my nearly two years of working my ASS off for Kerry with web sites, money, grassroots efforts and fundraisers and videotaping events to share with fellow Kerry fans can be somehow be seen as that I FUCKING VOTED FOR THE CHIMP.

That was my conclusion that this person needs some help.

Perhaps you find that if someone has reached the conclusion that this election (while stolen) is over for now that the person probably voted for Bush.

While it's convenient to listen to people like Jackson who whisper sweet tinfoilhatisms to the grand dame of leftie fringe Amy Goodman, I'm moving on to the next REAL battles. I'll leave the childish hand-wringing to those that don't see what needs to be done.

[Pepper32]

94. Lovely comment!

"Because I see the election results as how not enough people voted as well as not enough votes counted and that many votes are untraceable, somehow my nearly two years of working my ASS off for Kerry with web sites, money, grassroots efforts and fundraisers and videotaping events to share with fellow Kerry fans can be somehow be seen as that I FUCKING VOTED FOR THE CHIMP."
<snip>
-------------
Not sure if you are agreeing with the person that was bashing me but I agree completely with what you said above. Except for the first sentence, I do believe people tried to vote and left out of frustration because of all the BS challengers threw at them. Yeah, many did not vote for whatever reason but many tried (unsucessfully) and did not vote. It has been documented in Ohio hearings etc. Witness after witness stating they saw people leaving their polling place, never voting. That was my point.

I don't know how anyone could not see that a lot of fraud took place as well as suppression. This must be ok for you. Well, it's not for me. It hurts to no Jim Crow type things are becoming OK and ignored again. I guess it's a black thing. No meds needed though.

So excuse me for not being ready to call it quits :eyes:

[zulchzulu]

97. Please let me know about that device you have that counts air as a vote

You will make TONS OF MONEY with a device that can count votes that can't be traced due to BBV technology.

I await your invention.

Getting untraceable votes to be legally seen as verifiable could be one of the greatest inventions that Humankind has ever made! Perhaps there is a FraudFinder that turns vague and/or unverifiable votes into legally and profoundly legitimate votes that take Kerry over the top! Hey, if it can be possibly created on a X-Files show, then, hot damn, it can be done here!

I know you can do it! Please invent the "Invisible Vote Counter" device soon! We await your genius!

[Pepper32]

99. Hmm, if I had that capability I'm sure I would not be wasting time....

...responding to YOU.

I guess your whole point is BBV ate our votes with no trace. So exactly, what is Bev doing in Florida and why did she request the largest FOIA in U.S history?

Let's see, could it be that something is traceable, like changed polling tapes and logs that show someone entered the tabulator. And that's just to name a few reason why we should not give up on proving fraud. Also, who is to say that the recount in OHIO will not show a gross error in the in the initial counting? Can't we at the very least try to restore voters confidence and hand-count ALL of the votes? Is it asking that much, for every vote to count?

Also, maybe I'm the only one that feels this way but VOTER SUPPRESSION is more than enough evidence to prove this election was anything but fair and equal. Why you choose to gloss over this issue, is disturbing.

[zulchzulu]

102. Oi Vey!

Why do you think I'm not aware or don't care about voter suppression?

Mmmkay...so maybe we can all bitch about the obvious and somehow develop a formula where suppressed votes can somehow be translated into Real Votes and then turn this "evidence" in to a court of law and the FEC and overturn the Election...Yay!!!! Wow! That was SO easy!

Um...it don't work that way, homey.

[Pepper32]

103. Homey? lol okkkk

I'm curious, how does it work? Continue to humor me.

Why don't you think the evidence of voter suppression is NOT there or real?

Have you not read the Ohio hearings or the thousands of reports that were made on election day? This should be more than enough reasons to demand a remedy for this in court. I read somewhere at DU that this is a REAL possibility and that we could minus some electoral votes as a relief or do a revote in certain counties (I forget the exact words that was used). In fact, that was the whole point in collecting these reports on voter suppression, intimidation and trickery, so that we could have PROOF.

Also, articles have been written about voter suppression, however it's still not "obvious" as you say, because some (people like you and the media) would rather sweep it under the rug. Finally, Jackson is speaking up, so maybe we can get to truth now and demand justice. Regardless of what you say or think.

Also, I'm willing to bet that those so called "spoiled ballots" at the back of the bus are 80-90% black votes. http://www.ocnus.net/cgi-bin/exec/view.cgi?archive=57&num=15011 http://www.gregpalast.com/detail.cfm?artid=393&row=0

VERY INTERESTING ARTICLE
http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/SOL411A.html
Ohio, Republican challengers were witnessed harassing voters at the Mott Library, Central City polling station, a low-income African-American community. Observers said that they believed these challengers had repeatedly called the police producing absurd stories in order to intimidate voters. One of the Republican challengers was recognized as Dennis Lange, a prominent local business owner who owns Pumpernickels. Mr. Lange aggressively tried to push back African-American community members who were poll watching and voting at the site. At one point more than four police and sheriffs officers, including undercover officers, were witnessed at the site for no apparent reason. For a photo go to http://michiganimc.org/newswire/display/7580/index.php


HERE IS A BRIGHTER PIC... slightly fuzzy though

At 7:05pm, 25 minutes before polls closed in Toledo, Ohio, white, Republican challengers were witnessed harrassing voters at the Mott Library Central City polling station, a low-income African-American community. Observers said that they believed these challengers had been repeatedly calling the police producing obsurd stories in order to intimidate voters. One of the Republican challengers was recongnized as Dennis Lange, a prominant white business owner who owns Pumpernickels. Mr. Lange aggressively tried to push back African-American community members who were poll-watching and voting at the site. At one point more than four police officers, including undercover officers, were witnessed at the site for no reason. <snip>

[Pepper32]

93. Wow, someone told me I need meds?

Talk about bashing our own! Well, I'm black so maybe, nevermind... Sigh, it's real disheartening some people can't accept anyone else's opinions, other than their own. Hmm, who really needs meds here?

Anyway, thank-you for speaking out on my behalf - I think

[zulchzulu]

98. It wasn't you

It was........somebody else.

[Pepper32]

100. It's showing that the post was made under my post, so naturally ....

I thought the person was speaking to me. E.O.M

[GRLMGC]

92. Didn't Jesse Jackson say that Bush

had won fair and square? What made him change his mind?