How will we know if we have lost our democracy ?

[kentuck]

What will be the signs? Will it simply dawn on us one day out of the blue that we have lost it?

[acmavm]

1. It's gone already. And the people who stole it are so proud of themselves

that they've pulled off the coup.

Now we have to try to pry it from their greedy grasping bloody fingers and take it back.

[canadianbeaver]

5. I agree........

Underground Revolution....thats the only thing gonna stop this wheel from spinnin'....even then they will infiltrate it and say that the people molest children or are bad for the US Democrapy and safety, or "insert comment here" any thing they say the sheep will believe.

I fully believe that is the only way....REVOLUTION!!!

[DoYouEverWonder]

2. When it was apparent that we no longer

had a free press. Without a free press, you can not have a democracy.

[Warpy]

3. Yes, that' s the key

Between corporate pressure and anthrax in the mail, the Bush team has managed to turn everyone in the major media into a toadying coward.

Until an independent, small scale, non corporate press manages to spring up, we are screwed.

[r3verberate]

19. If what you say is true ..

.. then why would that Kevin Sites video make it on to your TV?

[alittlelark]

25. Once a story/pic/vid is all over the foreign press

it will make it here in a few days. Abu Ghraib photos were all over the world before here. They had to get their spinners in gear.

[Mist]

4. I think it's mostly gone now

and the corporate/state media bears a lot of the blame.

[robbedvoter]

6. A bit late to ask. here's my perspective:

http://robbedvoter.forclark.com/story/2004/11/19/125843/98
and here are the 14 signs of fascism:

snip
14. Fraudulent Elections - Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a
complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns
against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of
legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries,
and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their
judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.
http://www.couplescompany.com/Features/Politics/Structure3.htm

[WCGreen]

8. The author confuses Fascism with

the Nazi party even though she claims they are seperate....

If you want a look at real Fascism, take a look a Italy....

The blending of the corporate or business elite with the government is probably the best and clearest definition of Fascism. All the other 13 items on the list are really means to get to that end.....

We are fast approaching this state of affairs and have been since the 1950's when the military industrial complex began to dominate the federal budget, the direction of our country and our economic vitality.....

But it was really sealed in the early 90's when the duoploly laws regulating the ownership and operation of the media was significantly changed......

[robbedvoter]

28. The author examined SEVERAL fascist regimes (Italy included)

as shown in the article:

"Dr. Lawrence Britt has examined the fascist regimes of Hitler (Germany), Mussolini (Italy), Franco (Spain), Suharto (Indonesia) and several Latin American regimes". Britt found 14-defining characteristics common to each:

The 14 traits are THE COMMON ELEMENTS OF ALL

[Kahuna]

7. Stolen elections pretty much does it for me.

:shrug:

[deutsey]

9. Throw in lack of an effective, viable opposition party

and domination, if not outright control of most media outlets.

[Zhade]

10. What do you mean, "IF"?

NT!

[gordianot]

11. Very simple test turn on the following news.

NBC, CBS, ABC, CNN, read the Washington Post.

Don't worry about Fox they were never part of free media.


What we all really need is a clear channel Our Leader sign. That is the test.

[proudbluestater]

12. When our elections are stolen again and again.

This is where we stand today:

The 14 Defining Characteristics Of Fascism
Free Inquiry http://www.secularhumanism.org/fi/
Spring 2003; 5-11-03

Dr. Lawrence Britt has examined the fascist regimes of Hitler (Germany), Mussolini (Italy), Franco (Spain), Suharto (Indonesia) and several Latin American regimes. Britt found 14 defining characteristics common to each:


1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism - Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights - Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.

3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause - The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.

4. Supremacy of the Military - Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.

5. Rampant Sexism - The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Divorce, abortion and homosexuality are suppressed and the state is represented as the ultimate guardian of the family institution.

6. Controlled Mass Media - Sometimes to (sic) media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.

7. Obsession with National Security - Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.

8. Religion and Government are Intertwined - Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.

9. Corporate Power is Protected - The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.

10. Labor Power is Suppressed - Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.

11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts - Fascist nations tend to
promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts and letters is openly attacked.

12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment - Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.

13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption - Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.

14. Fraudulent Elections - Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.


http://www.omnicenter.org/warpeacecollection/facism.htm#14fascism

[Saffy]

14. 5. Rampant Sexism

"The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Divorce, abortion and homosexuality are suppressed and the state is represented as the ultimate guardian of the family institution."

I see this happening on such a grandiose scale that it defies logic! WHy aren't the women of this country fighting back?

And, just to validate this point, here's a link to an anti-abortion clause currently being included in a "must spend" spending bill:

http://www.nytimes.com/auth/login?URI=http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/20/politics/20spend.html&OQ=orefQ3DloginQ26th

"WASHINGTON, Saturday, Nov. 20 - House and Senate negotiators have tucked a potentially far-reaching anti-abortion provision into a $388 billion must-pass spending bill, complicating plans for Congress to wrap up its business and adjourn for the year.
The provision may be an early indication of the growing political muscle of social conservatives who provided crucial support for Republican candidates, including President Bush, in the election."

Saffy

[newyawker99]

26. Hi Saffy!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[robbedvoter]

30. They are. See?

[Saffy]

31. That must be the 49% there on the Capitol

I meant ALL the women in our nation, robbedvoter...not just 49%. I can't believe that so many are willing to give up so much after so many generations of hard work and nearly insurmountable challenges.

While it is comforting to know that at least 49% DO give a shit about their reproductive rights, economic equality, political voice, etc., so many apparently not only don't give a shit, but seem rather fanatical about stripping away the hard earned rights for ALL of us.

[Technowitch]

13. I think it's already lost

But that which is lost can be recovered again, you know.

We just need the collective huevos to do it.

[Saffy]

16. Women's Homeland Terror Alert System

Saffy

[genius]

15. The vote is rigged as just happened and we don't riot in the streets

We're there.

[leftofthedial]

17. it's done over with

12-12-2000 really did it

[LisaL]

18. We know it when our media loudly complains about

election FRAUD in Ukraine. But doesn't make a peep about the election FRAUD right here in US.

[GingerSnaps]

20. Kentuck it's been lost for a while now

I knew it the night of the election after my last class. The right wing press is the major issue and we must work together to fight against them.

I am sick of the red vs blue states. My family came from the south and I still have some people in the south. None of them voted for Bush and they don't know anyone that has.

We all have one thing in common and that is we are being lied to by the press. It's no longer free and we must work to stop them.

Our democracy is gone and I believe that allot of us know it in our hearts we just don't want to believe it.

:hug:

[Dr Fate]

21. I know-I've been saying this for years- ITS THE MEDIA-STUPID!!

n/t

[GingerSnaps]

23. Same here

I have been trying to get a protest the media day going for several years now.

We have to start by fighting the source of the bullshit first which is the right wing media. We need to bring Ruppert Murdoch's empire of liars down first.

[erniesam]

22. we'll know its lost, when everyone in Washington is owned by lobbyists

[Fleshdancer]

24. When we start to question when we would know if we lost our democracy

No viable opposition party (just look at what Hastert wants to do in the House), no free press, Americans being held indefinitely without a right to a lawyer, extreme secrecy over something like energy policy, etc.

I don't know what it would take to wake up the masses though. I assumed 9/11 would have opened the eyes of most Americans to the world we live in but instead it turned off the head and turned on the emotion which added to the fear and bigotry.

[driver8]

27. Resistance to re-count effort

For me, the fact that so many people involved with the "election" (ie. Ohio) are trying to prevent a re-count. If the election was fair, they should have nothing to worry about.

[Cheswick2.0]

29. Do you mean, "when did it happen"?

Election 2000 when the democratic party told Gore to shut up and go home because they had committee chairmanships to negotiate.

[spanone]

32. If Bush* gets reselected by the Christian right...........never mind.

[buddysmellgood]

33. When they say "Get over it"... the "it" is democracy.

If you can't audit the vote, if you can't know your vote was counted, you don't live in a democracy, period. It doesn't matter if the vote in your own state can be audited, it only takes one state, where the outcome is in question. If in that state, you cannot recount, you don't live in a democracy.
When they say "Get over it" the "it" is democracy.