Is it true that Kerry is winning a greater amount of mail-in military

[mom-mad-about-bush]

votes than Bush? I heard this on another site...but I'm not sure if it is true. Are there any statistics on this yet??? Please let me know any information you may have....thank you.

[The Backlash Cometh]

1. Kick

[Old and In the Way]

2. Would the Pentagon tell us, if that were true?

[Karenina]

6. Absolutely NOT.

You've also heard ZIP of the RECORD NUMBER of expatriate who attempted to vote whose numbers DWARF the "military vote."

[txindy]

27. When these 'irregularities' are straightened out

and the election 'results' are changed in Ohio, we'll get a chance in 2008 during Kerry's re-election to see how the Americans overseas truly vote.

[Freddie Stubbs]

28. The Penatagon wouldn't know

Absentee ballots are sent to the counties where the soldiers are residents.

[Old and In the Way]

39. Really?

The Pentagon doesn't collect them from the soldiers stationed outsde the US and send them to the Pentagon for dispersal to those precincts?

[charlie]

40. No

They send off their applications and receive ballots through the post office, like overseas civilians.

[Old and In the Way]

44. How about returning them?

They aren't consolidated and transported back to the US by the Pentagon for dispersal to election offices here?

[RivetJoint]

45. No

They go through the US mail.

[Old and In the Way]

51. That have US post offices in Iraq?

[RivetJoint]

52. There are a LOT more military people overseas

outside of Iraq than IN Iraq, don't just focus on that. And, yes, there are postal units that are are part of the US postal system, even in combat zones.

[Old and In the Way]

57. OK, but they military does control the pipeline.

http://hqdainet.army.mil/mpsa/main.htm



Profile

Until 1980, each military service and government agency managed its own mail program. In 1980, the Department of Defense designated the Secretary of the Army as the single military mail manager. The Military Postal Service Agency (MPSA) was created to perform this task, with a jointly-staffed headquarters located in the National Capital Region. MPSA is required to adhere to United States Postal Service (USPS) rules, federal laws, and various international laws and agreements for movement of military mail into over 85 countries. MPSA is the single DoD point of contact with the USPS. It conducts DoD contingency planning and provides postal support to theater Combatant Commanders through Services' theater postal commands. It serves as a proponent of DoD's cost control policy for DoD official mail and as the functional director for military mail. MPSA also monitors transportation funds dedicated to overseas mail movement.


I know Don Rumsfield and General Meyers would do nothing to tamper with our soldiers votes.....that only happens to civilian votes.

[charlie]

53. Yep

With zip codes and all -- Iraq is mostly in the 093XX series.

[charlie]

46. Uh-uh

You take your ballot to the post office.

There was a goofy program offered by the Pentagon this year for soldiers deployed in Iraq/Afghanistan -- email voting. Soldiers would send email to the Pentagon and they'd distribute them to the precincts. But I don't recall a single state that agreed to the cockamamie idea (and I doubt a grunt would want higherups giving him the hairy eyeball for voting for the "wrong" candidate), so it died aborning.

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Catherine Vincent]

8. Because they can't stand Bush?

[Bluebear]

11. Re your "Duhland" graphic, what's a terrast?

[othermeans]

4. I wonder how you would verify this? Don't the votes go to the home

precinct of the soldier?

[Hey Zeus]

5. wish it were so...

but seriously doubt it.

[babylonsister]

7. Kick-hope someone knows of a way to find out... nt

[nadinbrzezinski]

9. Miliary votes have NOT been counted for the most

part,

Now you folks are intelligent, anybody care to guess WHY?

[DoYouEverWonder]

10. The few reports I've seen

Show the military vote was going Kerry, but then the word went out and there haven't been any more reports since the first few a couple of days ago.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=203&topic_id=51457

[flresident]

12. 4 to 1 Bush Over Kerry

According to a survey of several thousand GIs done by the Air
Force Times:  In the 2000 election, the military votes favored
Bush over Gore 2 to 1.  In 2004 the military votes favored
Bush 4 to 1 over Kerry.  The military usually tends to vote
Republican, but many people believe that the even higher
Republican vote this election was due to a combination of
Kerry's stance on the war in Iraq and the Swift Boat
commercials.  True or not, the perception became that Kerry
sold out the military and falsely accused his fellow vets of
fictitious war crimes ... not to mention making the POWs'
lives even more miserable.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

13. I 've seen 4 reported....

all on du, all show Kerry ahead! one in FL, TX ....

[Spazito]

14. That survey was done only among the command level, not at the

foot soldier level therefore has little merit on the actual vote. It has already been discredited.

[ArkDem]

31. The Air Force doesn't have 'foot soldiers'.

[pacalo]

15. That information is questionable, compared to everything I've read

about the growing bitterness in the military.

Do you have a source for that information, please?

[NewYorkerfromMass]

16. we're talking about actual votes cast by ALL personnel

not some fluffy poll dominated by career military respondents.

[LittleClarkie]

19. A survey doesn't mean jack

What you say in front of your fellows, and what you do in the voting booth, are two different things.

The coordinator for the Vets for Kerry in Milwaukee commented that the soldiers would say "Bush" in public and "Kerry" very quietly in private.

[Doctor_J]

20. fr, you are posting too many freepish thoughts to last

here much longer. The fact that soldiers would vote 4-1 for a lying coward who doesn't give a damn about them over a decorated war hero is preposterous.

[Anarcho-Socialist]

21. That survey has been posted before and is known to be unscientific

[CAcyclist]

23. This Magazine Goes To Officers and Career Military Not The Kids

fighting this war.

This is not idicative of how the military vote will go.

[flresident]

24. To Answer Some of Your Posts...

To help answer some of your posts:
1.  Spazito - The Air Force Times survey I was talking about
was done across all ranks, not just the command level, and
across all branches of the military.  Most of those surveyed
were junior and mid-grade enlisted.
2.  8-year - Again, the source was the AF Times but you're
right - any source can be questionable.  No survey is perfect,
just look at how many pre-election and exit polls/surveys were
incorrect.
3.  New Yorker - The AF Times is read by everyone and can be
purchased at any military base.  Career military respondents
would mean high-ranking enlisted and mid- to high-level
officers.  This particular survey included the whole spectrum.
4.  Clarkie - You're right about saying one thing in the
survey and another at the polls.  Again, who can trust a
survey 100% anyway?  Anecdotally speaking, I can tell you that
it has been my experience in the Air Force that the military
in general (all ranks) is overwhelmingly conservative (in the
same way that unions are typically Democratic).  Not totally
sure why.
5.  TOJ - sorry if you don't like my post, but I was simply
trying to answer the original question.  My facts are correct
and my personal experience (whether or not we agree) supports
it.  Trust me when I say that the vast majority of the
military (all ranks, all branches) leans heavily Republican. 
For example, the highest percentage of FL counties that voted
Bush?  The military ones - Okaloosa, Santa Rosa, Escambia,
etc.  Why would they do that in spite of the war in Iraq?  The
military consensus (right or wrong, agree or disagree) is that
the was isn't going that badly (or at least as well as this
kind of war can) and that Kerry sold out his fellow brothers.
6.  Anarcho - You're right.  No poll is 100% accurate.  Take
it with a grain of salt, but I can assure you that there were
more military votes for Bush; how many more isn't definite.

[charlie]

30. #3 - NewYorkerfromMass is right

Right about the type of respondents the poll is drawn from, that is:

Army Times Publishing sent e-mails to more than 31,000 subscribers and received 4,165 responses on a secure Web site. The publisher cautioned that the results are not a scientific poll. Its readers are older, higher in rank and more career-oriented than the military as a whole.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/politicselections/nation/president/2004-10-03-bush-troops_x.htm

While there are more Republican than Democratic voters in the military, this poll's demographic is skewed more toward the Repub end of the spectrum.

[MADem]

43. Also, the number of SUBSCRIBERS

...to the military TIMES papers (it's the same paper, published in Springfield VA, for all services--they change the front, they put a few specialized articles in for each branch, but it is essentially the same rag across the board) is a SMALL PERCENTAGE OF THE MILITARY.

In all the time I spent in service (which was considerable) I never subscribed. Hell, we had a bunch of command subscriptions, and would pass the thing around--this was common everywhere I went. A lot of people with subscriptions are retirees, people who want to stay in touch, civilians who work for the branch, that sort of thing. If there was any article that you just HAD to have, you bought a copy at the exchange or the Class 6 store--back in the days before computers, the thing would sell out when the promotion lists came out--people would want to see who of their pals that they used to serve with got advanced, and commands were not as good as they are now about getting the word out. Nowadays, you can get all that crap on line.

[Touchdown]

58. Also, more soldiers subscribe to Hustler than Army Times

SO if they read the articles (a bit unlikely) then they're getting Flint's liberal wit regularly.

[MADem]

60. If they want that mag, they HAVE to subscribe

Even with the paper wrappers, they have been BANNED from military exchanges (Playboy, too). After the ban, postal clerks noticed that the mail bags were a lot heavier!

[txindy]

25. That's funny!

As if a survey conducted in the military would be valid considering all personnel know there would be repercussions for not giving the 'right' (in more ways than one) answer. Too funny! :crazy:

The real irony here is the outright hypocrisy we've seen over this year's military absentee ballots. Four years ago, the GOP went into a dramatic public swoon because, supposedly, we weren't waiting for those ballots to come in before deciding the election and were disenfranchising our military men and women. Now, they can't bury those ballots fast enough. Talk about two-faced!

[MADem]

61. That's not a military paper, though

They are "boosters" and "supporters" but they get NO money from DOD--though they aren't stupid--they tend to try to give a favorable impression of the services, in exchange for access. Pre-9/11 you would see TIMES reporters wandering the halls in the Pentagon and associated DC area facilities like they owned the place--not just during pressers, either, whenever they felt like it. You'd sometimes catch them trying to read shit upside down in people's in and out boxes.

This so-called "survey" has absolutely NOTHING to do with reality. It takes a small subset of readers of AIR FORCE TIMES (the Air Force is not doing the heavy lifting in Iraq, FWIW--the brunt is being taken by Guard, Army, and USMC), polls their subscribers, gets back a small sample from that, and publishes the results while noting in small print that the results are not scientific. The likely respondents to this puff poll probably responded to it from a dot mil address, while sitting in a nice leather chair wearing a freshly pressed uniform of the day, from somewhere within the continental United States.

That's not representative of the rank and file in any way, shape, or form.

It's easy to cheer the CinC when it ain't your ass on the line!!!

[Coyul]

26. link please nt

[leftynyc]

34. If true, I'm sorry to see our military personnel

are so easily fooled.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

36. Yeah...let's all listen to this guy

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=110&topic_id=9113#9343

[LynnTheDem]

37. Not true.

Some MYTHS just refuse to die.

OFFICERS are more rightwing in general; 56% rethug vs Dem/Indy.

Officers make up only 15% of the military.

ENLISTEDS are on average one third of enlisted troops are Republicans, one third Democrats, and the rest independents, with the latter group growing.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0921/p02s02-usmi.html

They didn't support bush much back in 2003 BEFORE everything really went total FUBAR;

2003 Military Times poll — We asked. You answered.
Military backs Bush more than civilians do — but not by much

The poll found solid support for the president’s Iraq policy. Fifty-six percent of those in the Military Times Poll approved of Bush’s handling of Iraq.

“Fifty-six percent is not very high in terms of support,” said Andrew Bacevich, a a professor of international relations at Boston University and a retired Army officer. “There is plenty of reason to be skeptical of the handling of Iraq on the part of the people who are paying the price.”

But author and retired Army officer Ralph Peters called the numbers “a pleasant surprise.”

http://www.airforcetimes.com/story.php?f=1-292925-2513919.php

[ThoughtCriminal]

54. A very flawed self selected poll

Very unreliable.

[RivetJoint]

56. Agree...not scientific at all

[rniel]

17. Also heard

80% of those in the military now are from Red States so if they are voting Kerry that should tell you something.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

18. Nope. Look at the military deaths map

most of the casualties are from the big states: NY, CA, TX, IL, NJ, PA. Most of the dead are from blue states.

[ThoughtCriminal]

55. Posted this yesterday

543 fatalities from Blue States. That's actually about 45% of US casualties. If Red staters are 80% of the troops in Iraq, they are spending a lot of time in the Green Zones.

[bones_7672]

22. We will have to wait until all states report their absentee ballots

And then someone(s) will have to pour over the results. I think any articles about it before then will be only speculation.

[mom-mad-about-bush]

33. Do you know when the final results of the military vote will be in????

[RivetJoint]

42. Most of it is in

It's done state by state.

[mom-mad-about-bush]

47. Are the results going to be put out????

[RivetJoint]

50. It's contained in the state totals

[Freddie Stubbs]

29. There has been no hard evidence except for

a few reports of Kerry winning the military ballots in overwealmingly Democratic counties. This shouldn't be a big surprise. What would be if Kerry carried the military vote from swing counties or red counties.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

32. Somebody Made A Big Deal About Kerry Doing Well

In Broward County Military Ballots...


I just assumed that most of the GIs voting were African American...

I doubt African Americans become Republican when they join the military...

[Freddie Stubbs]

35. And Broward County is overwealming Democratic

Not a big surprise there.

[Tsiyu]

38. I heard they were being sent to the Pentagon

for "cleansing."

Why shouldn't an AWOL cocaine addict steal votes from a few more of his victims? The troops sitting in the desert for years don't matter.

Jeebus told him that.

[RivetJoint]

41. They don't go to the Pentagon

They go to the county which sent out the absentee ballot.

[Karenina]

48. That is SOP

but not correct in this instance as there were "problems" with getting ballots in time. The whole absentee ballot from overseas issue is another rotting fish omelette. Some in the military were "encouraged" to FAX their votes which went THROUGH the Pentagon. Civilian votes (which far outnumber the military) are a COMPLETELY UNDISCUSSED ISSUE. People turned out in DROVES to register. *PNAC has STOLEN AMERICA.

[RivetJoint]

49. I don't think anyone faxed ther ballots

you might want to check on that. BTW, the vast majority of overseas military are NOT in the Middle East.

[Karenina]

59. Doch.

My point is that military overseas are a FRACTION of the number of American civilians, who registered, or tried to in RECORD NUMBERS (the info of their whereabouts was fed into a database and their votes have likely been discarded).

A FAX brings the issue of a "secret ballot" into question.

http://www.channelone.com/news/2004/10/30/ap_election_soldiers/

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/afp/20041102/ts_alt_afp/us_vote_military

http://business.newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=04/09/02/0538238&tid=110