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I've enjoyed all the latter-day attacks on Kerry and his campaign

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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 03:07 PM
Original message
I've enjoyed all the latter-day attacks on Kerry and his campaign
My favorite bits have been all the great stories about how this-or-that candidate got his rightful nomination stolen by an evil cabal of media-GOP-DLC scumbags during the primaries, leaving out the niggling details about vote counts and how one doesn't become the nominee for anything if one is unable to win primaries. Forget all that, because bitter We-Wuz-Robbed complaints based on opaquely formed grudges do wonders for the conversation.

Did Kerry's campaign make mistakes? Sure. They should have responded better, faster and more clearly to a) The Swift Boat stuff, b) The flip-flop charge, and c) The $87 billion vote. Would any of the other primary candidates have escaped similar mistakes and/or attacks had their rightful place at the top of the ticket not been so scurrilously stolen from them? Doubtful in the extreme. If the other candidates were unable to overcome Kerry and his evil minions, they surely would never have lasted a second against the truly evil Bush campaign crew.

Here's a reminder of the guy we had running. I hate to disrupt these latter-day revisions to history, but this is probably some important stuf to remember.

==

John Kerry was born to Richard Kerry and Rosemary Forbes, who met in Paris just before the war. Richard Kerry, marked early in life by the suicide of his father and the death from polio of his sister Mildred, became a student of the law who eventually distinguished himself in the Foreign Service during the Eisenhower years. Rosemary, despite her Forbes and Winthrop heritage, was not spared her own deep trials. When the Nazis invaded Paris, Rosemary had to flee the city on a bicycle. She spent weeks foraging for food, hiding in barns and cellars, avoiding German soldiers and falling bombs, until she finally reached Lisbon and boarded a ship bound for Boston.

How do the ordeals of parents affect the fate of the child? Because of his father's government service, John Kerry saw the world, and came to know the art of diplomacy. He learned very young that there is much beyond the borders of America to value. His time abroad with his father shattered the quiet xenophobic tendencies many Americans get with mother's milk.

Because of his mother's narrow escape from the Nazi armies, John Kerry learned that there is indeed evil in the world which no amount of money or privilege can deflect. Living in post-war Berlin during one of his father's diplomatic postings, Kerry saw the bombed-out buildings, the refugees who were everywhere, and the tens of thousands of people who left everything behind to flee the Soviet sector. Kerry learned that such evil must be confronted. In the experiences of his parents, John Kerry developed the nuanced, intricate and informed view of the wider world that has since defined his life.

Of course, he came from privilege. Educated at the exclusive Fessenden School, and then at the super-exclusive St. Paul's School, and then at Yale University, Kerry was surrounded by the scions of wealthy families and was afforded an education available to only the richest few. In order to fit in with his fellow students, Kerry should have adopted the attitude of world-weary condescension, of laid-back expectancy, which marked children of the wealthy Eastern Establishment in that time and place.

He didn't. Inspired by teachers like Reverend John Walker, who taught those privileged children at St. Paul's about the realities of race in America, and later by President John Kennedy, whose call to service motivated millions, and always by his father Richard, who taught by word and example that service to country is the highest calling, John Kerry became a man of action and of ambition. Here was no callow youth marking time until his family's money became his money. Kerry became active in politics, and augured his life towards government work.

John Kerry served in the Navy from 1966 to 1970, volunteered for combat duty in Vietnam, and earned the Silver Star, the Bronze Star, three Purple Hearts, two Presidential Unit Citations and a National Defense Medal. Upon his return from the war, he became centrally involved with Vietnam Veterans Against the War, helped to create Vietnam Veterans of America, and brought the realities of Vietnam into living rooms all across America. He served as a prosecutor in Middlesex County, Massachusetts, beginning in 1976. From 1977 to 1982 he served as First Assistant District Attorney, during which time he successfully battled organized crime, prosecuted and jailed the number two crime boss in New England, fought for victims' rights, and organized rape counseling programs.

From 1983 to 1985, John Kerry served as Massachusetts Lieutenant Governor, and transformed what had been a symbolic position to one with muscle. He organized Governors all across the country to combat a new and disturbing reality - acid rain caused by industrial pollution that was destroying lakes, rivers and the country's water supply. This activity began what has since become a lifetime of activism to protect our environment, a lifetime of activism that has made John Kerry perhaps the most effective fighter for environmental protection in American government.

In 1985, John Kerry was elected to the U.S. Senate, where he has served for the last 19 years. Coming into the Massachusetts delegation under the long shadow of Edward Kennedy, who had already cornered the hail-fellow-well-met market of Massachusetts retail politics, Kerry worked to the strengths he had inherited from his parents and became a master of national and foreign policy issues. It would take a great deal of ink to detail the committees he served on, the legislation he shepherded into passage, the arguments he championed and the policies he pushed.

The best illustration of the man Senator John Kerry became, the man we now see standing for President, came when he decided to wage war against one of the most far-reaching and dangerous criminal enterprises ever seen in the world. In 1988, the Bank of Credit and Commerce International, or BCCI, was a highly respected international financial institution which catered to the most powerful of the powerful. BCCI had allies all through Washington D.C. and across the world.

The public reality of BCCI changed completely when John Kerry, fresh from his lead role investigating the Iran/Contra scandal, was tasked to run down Iran/Contra drug connections as chairman of the Subcommittee on Terrorism, Narcotics, and International Operations. Very soon, Kerry discovered damning BCCI connections not only to Noriega and the laundering of drug money, but to a massive international network of dirty cash moving to and from the most dangerous people in the world.

Immediately, Kerry met with opposition from power-players in Washington. Everyone - literally everyone, from both parties, including President George H.W. Bush, whose son George W. had enjoyed BCCI financing for one of his doomed oil businesses - pressured Kerry to back off. Instead, Kerry took the information he had gathered and gave it to New York District Attorney Robert Morgenthau. Morgenthau agreed to begin a criminal investigation into BCCI. By 1991, the investigation had blown up what Morgenthau described at the time as "one of the biggest criminal enterprises in world history."

Journalists David Sirota and Jonathan Baskin, writing for Washington Monthly, published an article titled 'Follow the Money', which chronicled Kerry's work against BCCI. In their article, Sirota and Baskin state, "As Kerry's subcommittee discovered, BCCI catered to many of the most notorious tyrants and thugs of the late 20th century, including Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein, the heads of the Medellin cocaine cartel, and Abu Nidal, the notorious Palestinian terrorist. According to the CIA, it also did business with those who went on to lead al Qaeda. And BCCI went beyond merely offering financial assistance to dictators and terrorists: According to Time, the operation itself was an elaborate fraud, replete with a 'global intelligence operation and a Mafia-like enforcement squad.'"

"By July 1991," continued Sirota and Baskin in their article, "Kerry's work paid off. That month, British and U.S. regulators finally responded to the evidence provided by Kerry, Morgenthau, and a concurrent investigation by the Federal Reserve. BCCI was shut down in seven countries, restricted in dozens more, and served indictments for grand larceny, bribery, and money laundering. A decade after Kerry helped shut the bank down, the CIA discovered Osama bin Laden was among those with accounts at the bank. A French intelligence report obtained by The Washington Post in 2002 identified dozens of companies and individuals who were involved with BCCI and were found to be dealing with bin Laden after the bank collapsed, and that the financial network operated by bin Laden today 'is similar to the network put in place in the 1980s by BCCI.' As one senior U.S. investigator said in 2002, 'BCCI was the mother and father of terrorist financing operations.'"

Here is a man who came from a level of privilege most Americans have never known. He could have become what so many children from the upper echelons of money and power become - callow, shallow, lazy, biding his time until he got everything he thought his position granted him, leaning on powerful family friends to make up for the shortcomings that arise from an idle life and the sense that the world owes him whatever he desires, believing that making money and enjoying position are the alpha and omega of life.

John Kerry went in the opposite direction. He was raised to believe that privilege has its duties, that public service is the alpha and omega of life, and has worked every day to fulfill the obligations his parents and his education and his own deeply-held beliefs instilled in him. In his fight against BCCI, he revealed himself to be a man of great purpose, of mission, who refused to bow before the altars of status quo and go-along-to-get-along that are all too worshipped in Washington.

A life of service and study crafted a man of depth, of intelligence, who can see all the sides of any issue and incorporates all available data before making a decision. The opponents he has faced and defeated throughout his career have enjoyed painting him as vacillating, as indecisive, as a man who holds several positions at once in order to cover his political backside. In truth, these incomplete views on John Kerry are born from a modern political landscape that cannot fathom a man who is judicious, contemplative and thorough, because such attributes have been all too absent from our political discourse.

http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/093004A.shtml
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Tandalayo_Scheisskopf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 03:08 PM
Response to Original message
1. Shorter version, at least for me:
I think all the attacks are bitter and bullshit.

I will succumb to neither base urge.
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berner59 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. thank you....
I will still hold out hope that this great man will lead our country... It's still almost inconceivable that he lost to Bush...although I don't think he really did...
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indigobusiness Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #1
16. The only thing worse than a bad loser
is a bad winner.
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #1
49. Agreed, and I'm so damn glad the "hide thread" feature is back! nt
Edited on Mon Nov-15-04 06:03 PM by blondeatlast
Edit: oopsie; it's gone again.
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #49
50. nooooooooooo, it is?
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #50
57. It was this AM, it's gone again.
Damn, I soooooooooooo need it!
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NewYorkerfromMass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 03:10 PM
Response to Original message
2. Imagine if Kerry had won (and I believe he did)
It proves though the skin deep support Kerry has had to work with.
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robbedvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #2
47. But it was many more skins than Gore ever had - and Kerry let us down
Edited on Mon Nov-15-04 05:54 PM by robbedvoter
And, yeah, I have no doubt he won. he became a loser the next morning when he declined the leadership role history offered him.
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cidliz2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 11:32 PM
Response to Reply #47
88. You said a mouthful
The fact that the DNC backed Kerry and blackballed some of the other primary candidates, well, being taken down from within is something that Kerry didn't have to face. He was the INSIDER FOR WAHSINGTON FOR THE DNC ....PERIOD... Would he have done a good job as President? I'm sure that he would have. The point of the whole thing is that the next day he QUIT! A major flip flop. Every vote was supposed to be counted before this guy quit and started looking at his future in 08'. THAT IS THE PROBLEM. We supported Kerry to help save the United States Of America, He apparently was more concerned with his political future. My question; how much of a future do all of the Americans have to look forward to in 08?
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Skwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 06:25 AM
Response to Reply #88
111. "He was more concerned with his political future."
Well what did you expect? The guy voted for war because of concern over his political future.

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Dookus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 03:11 PM
Response to Original message
3. the main problem
is that so many people believe, against all reason, that THEIR candidate was somehow immune from right-wing attacks.

They don't understand that the attacks have NOTHING to do with the candidate - they have to do with Republicans and their tactics. Kerry wasn't attacked as a flip-flopper because he WAS a flip-flopper - they just thought it would work. Al Gore was known as a straight-arrow boy scout his whole career -until they decided to turn him into a liar.

The notion that there's a candidate who cannot be attacked is incredibly naive.
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DemOperative Donating Member (146 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #3
68. It's more naive to assume the same result
Given the vast differences in style and demeanor of the candidates in question. Who really knows? One thing for sure, no matter how you cut it, it was a bad campaign. Strategically, organizationally, and executionally.
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #68
124. EXCUSE ME but name a candidate that actually WON more than
a couple states from his own PARTY in the primary. If they can't win their own party over, how on earth can they win the country over?

Yes, I was bummed that Kerry conceded so quickly but he came within 2% of the popular vote and within ONE state of taking it.

Maybe he was slow on the Swiftboat attacks, but one must also note all the FREE media that O'Neill got in addition to his commercials getting aired.

Kerry was swimming upstream the entire election season and the Repubs had to pull every trick in the book.

Just to shut up half the people dissing him, I'd LOVE to see any of the other candidates take the body blows he took both by by Rove and all the various media talking heads.
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Nazgul35 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 11:16 PM
Response to Reply #3
80. So then the idea that a candidate
is more electible than another is also naive....

No?
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Dookus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 11:33 PM
Response to Reply #80
89. No
I think you're presuming that "electability" equals "invulnerability to attacks". I don't agree with that.

Clearly Kerry, Edwards, Dean and some others were far more "electable" than Sharpton.

Electability *IS* important, by definition. But I think the idea that the Republicans ONLY attack based on real issues is mistaken. They attack on pure lies, and will do so to ANY candidate.
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David Zephyr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 03:12 PM
Response to Original message
4. Exactly!
Good stuff, as always.
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TomClash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 03:12 PM
Response to Original message
5. Here's my main quibble
The two most basic problems with John Kerry was that he failed to connect to many ordinary people and he failed to provide a concrete, easy to understand reason why he should have been chosen over Bush.

That said, the debates should have aptly illustrated to the 59 million dunderheads who voted for him that he was easily the better man for the job.
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. It's hard to overcome a message as simple as "Vote Bush Or Die"
Said message having been broadcast 24/7/365 for three years straight, a year before any Dem candidate even got started on the trail.
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TomClash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #7
14. I agree
Hey, I know this well, I'm typing 200 feet from where the 2 WTC once stood.

We all "rallied around the President" and he used our patriotism against us in the 2002 and 2004 elections. Daschle was especially susceptible - now his staffers are blacklisted.

Remember though that Kerry had more money than any Dem candidate has ever had. He's not completely blameless here.

That's assuming he really lost.

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Cadence Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #7
26. That's true
I really thought the democrats were going to come out swinging saying 9/11 happened on Bush's watch. That he was the only one with the pre- 9/11 mentality, that he ignored memos that said in clear language exactly what the threat was. That Osama is still out there.

I thought they would hammer home that Clinton's administration successfully thwarted the millenium attack.

But I guess we didn't have the equal and opposite sound bites that we needed. Which is sort of what it boils down to. Sound bites and repetition.
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mrgorth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #7
32. Well we'd better fucking figure out a way
because that is gonna be there meme for a while. When that one gets tired they'll have another good one. These guys have their shit down. They're gonna have us look like racists over Gonzolez and Groeppenfuhrer. Their message is not an excuse. We know what the memes are gonna be. We have to figure out a way around them.
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Skwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 07:19 AM
Response to Reply #7
113. Just as it's hard to overcome the broadcast message
Edited on Tue Nov-16-04 07:21 AM by Skwmom
"Kerry is the most electable," Kerry is "our best chance to beat Bush." But since it worked for Bush in 2000, what the heck, there was a pretty good chance that it would work again.
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LisaL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 06:53 PM
Response to Reply #7
141. I think the republicans got their message just a little bit wrong.
They must have meant "vote for Bush and then die".
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LilKim Donating Member (355 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #5
30. I also think he lacked the 'vision thing'
Edited on Mon Nov-15-04 03:47 PM by LilKim
because every time I heard him speak, it was simply an attack on Bush. Not that such attacks weren't deserved or without merit, but I just didn't hear enough of "This is where I want to take America," or "This is how I see us becoming as a country," particularly in the last couple of weeks when it just seemed to be relentless hammerings on Iraq. I'm sure Kerry got a huge portion of the "I'm against..." vote but I don't think he ran enough of a campaign for the "I'm for..." vote. All you need to do is compare Kerry's run with Clinton's in 1992 to see the stark contrast in positive message and optimism.

BTW, I voted for Clark in the primaries.
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #5
51. Perhaps those are purely original thoughts, but they sound EXACTLY
like the RW talking points that were spoon fed to the media.
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Mikimouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 03:15 PM
Response to Original message
8. Good for you, Will...I am a long time Bostonian, just transplanted
to the south. I remember Kerry in his early days (70s). I got to know him through his radio show on WBZ and always admired his style. It is about time that we all stood up and cheered Kerry!
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Parche Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 03:15 PM
Response to Original message
9. Kerry
Great Post

I have always had respect for Kerry
I have supported him for 2years now, when he was "Unknown" in the
Presidential field, and supported him all through out this campaign

He ran a great one, yes he could have gone the other way and
acted like them, evil and distasteful
But he did not, like the true person he is.
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RafterMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 03:16 PM
Response to Original message
10. They're "latter-day"
because people *really did* put their differences on hold in the interest of presenting a united front for the election.

I think shutting up was a good thing to do then, and speaking up is a good thing to do now.
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. Fair enough
But speaking up about legitimate beefs regading the way the campaign is one thing. Barfing up ancient and utterly discredited conspiracy theories about how Kerry got the nomination is bullshit.
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TomClash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. Very true n/t
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indigobusiness Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #12
20. You are so right. Though I don't like putting it that way.
KERRY 2008
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Reality Not Tin Foil Donating Member (325 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #12
54. But...But...BUT!!
It's not a conspiracy theory if YOU CAN'T PROVE IT'S NOT TRUE!!!
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tabasco Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 03:18 PM
Response to Original message
11. Kerry's greatest enemy was the corporate media.
How can any progressive candidate "connect with the people" when they are constantly put in a negative light in the mass media. Kerry withstood the pressure very well. Other candidates probably would not have fared so well.
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rniel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #11
48. Agreed and...
I think at the time Kerry is going on the offensive against bush it was barely covered by the media. Then everyone saying he wasn't fighting back.
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Nazgul35 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #11
81. Wait a second...
Didn't Will just say that this was not a valid excuse for primary candidates?

Is it only allowed to be used for general election candidates?
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ramapo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 03:21 PM
Response to Original message
13. Kerry was the best choice
Will has pointed out the three mistakes of the Kerry campaign. Would the end result have been any different had Kerry responded better? Perhaps but certainly not to the hardcore Bush voter.

The $87B question really drove me crazy. I just don't understand why Kerry had such a problem with it. Republicans voted against a different bill to fund the war and Kerry never called them on that charade.

None of the other candidates would've had a chance against Bush. If Clark had some campaign experience then he might've been formidable but he did not perform well during the primary campaign and would've been ripped apart in the general campaign.

I don't blame Kerry. I don;t blame Bush.

I blame the American people, voters and non-voters alike. I hated the system, Bush, Olsen, the Supreme Court, and the rest of the cabal in 2000 (and held quite a grudge for four years).

In 2004 the American people failed themselves and that's all there is to it.
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pacalo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #13
18. I don't blame the people as much as I blame the media.
An educated vote is all I ask.
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pacalo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 03:26 PM
Response to Original message
17. Not one attack from me. I have complete faith in John Kerry.
I've read so much about Kerry that he's become a hero to me. I know whatever he's doing behind the scenes is all for the right reasons.

He knows what he's dealing with. As he told campaign supporters during a rally (when he thought the mikes were off), "These are a bunch of crooks."

I don't believe for one minute that he's not concerned with the voting irregularites across the country. I hear that he's got $millions reserved for the purpose of investigating election fraud.
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MikeG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 03:27 PM
Response to Original message
19. "success has a hundred fathers, failure is an orphan"
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #19
34. too true
i never stopped believing. after watching the media made a mockery of gore in 2000 when he went after his stolen votes, i fully expected kerry to take a different route... one that could never be construed as anything but dignified. i'll give him the benefit of any doubt; i fully expect him to 'turn his boat towards the enemy' as another poster so perfectly put it. indeed, all the kerry bashing around here smacks of thin-skinned loyalty. it's sad.
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robbedvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 03:30 PM
Response to Original message
21. Nice obit. Shorter version: "He won. Wuz robbed. Dropped the ball"
Edited on Mon Nov-15-04 03:33 PM by robbedvoter
All I can say: I respect Al Gore even more and John, the robbing of our votes was not God's test to YOU!
remember Will, when we argued on the stealing of the 2000 election? You contended Gore lost and gave him no break for his fight. So, nice rewrite of history.
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #21
27. "You contended Gore lost and gave him no break for his fight"
I honestly don't know what you're talking about...or perhaps it is you that doesn't know what you are talking about.

I am in the process of writing my next book, and have been pouring over everything I have written for publication since 1999. In those 400 or so articles, I stated in dozens of them that Gore got robbed by SCOTUS, Harris and ChoicePoint. Don't make me post them all here, because it will make you look sadly wrong.
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Terran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #27
39. Jeez...
I don't think *anyone* here (except assorted trolls) ever said "Gore lost." That's kinda why we're all here in the first friggin' place.

That response was a model of decorum, Will. I would not have been polite.
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robbedvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #39
46. That's a nice fan....
Edited on Mon Nov-15-04 05:51 PM by robbedvoter
There were wensites full of Will's naderist POVs at the time - didn't bother to save.
Not a crime, to be sure. Michael Moore for instance is a hero of mine these days, part of it being that he never tried to say: "I said that?" Instead, he just apologized to Gore and then did the right thing
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robbedvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #27
45. It was an exchange in a yahoo group "Al Gore Worldwide"
I am glad you revised your views...At the time you were reciting the "no difference - only Al Gore beat Al Gore" mantra as per St Ralph....
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #45
52. I've never been a member of Al Gore Worldwide
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rockydem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #52
55. It was the filthy money-grubbers
Edited on Mon Nov-15-04 06:30 PM by rockydem
and now they're trying to save their pencil-thin necks so they can resume their lame positions on the high thrones.

How does it feel?
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robbedvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 07:56 PM
Response to Reply #52
72. Riiight...And never posted there about Moakley's funeral, Big Dog's
arrival. Nor did you post on Friends of Bill. Again, growth is a good thing, hypocrisy is not.
The thread you started on the Gore group was entitled something like: "Can anyone tell me anything redeeming about Al Gore". I hope you kept the answers, they may help you with the new book.
You forgot to deny that you weren't a proponent of "no difference" in 2000 btw.
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 11:30 PM
Response to Reply #72
85. *That* I will admit to
I was a 'No Diff' proponent until sometime in September 2000. Then I got my head screwed on straight.

I also remember posting on FoB...but I don't remember the Gore Worldwide list. Troof.

Your allegation that I somehow glazed over the Florida fraud and the SCOTUS theft, however, is 100% wrong.
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robbedvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 12:46 AM
Response to Reply #85
93. So you could say Gore (who fought the theft) was identical to Bush
that being the same Gore who spoke against the war in Iraq, but we are not entitled to criticize Kerry, not for the vote on war, not for folding on the second election theft - just cuz you say so? Do you perceive a little lack of standing for you to preach to us here?
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 02:47 AM
Response to Reply #93
107. My 'No Diff' stance
had nothing to do with the way the election unfolded. The Gore post-election-2000 was a wholewholewhole lot different than the guy who ran for President...because he cound be, because he was unshackled.

Let's not get silly with our revisionist history.
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robbedvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 08:55 AM
Response to Reply #107
116. So, Gore fought GOP, people like you and still had the guts to contest
the theft. No Moveon, Air America ABB for him. "Why did he give up so soon?"
And yet, now some are praising Kerry for cunningly "avoiding the Loserman label" by pretending he conceeded, but, oh, we know that his private own little CIA is parachutting inside computers....,
Not sure who is doing the revising. I was awake through both thefts (well, the 3 of them actually), and all I can say - Democrats got only better at rolling over as the ruling party got better at stealing....
Back to crying in my teacup.
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 03:33 PM
Response to Original message
22. Kerry's greatest weakness was his heritage and his greatest strength was
everything else he did with his life.

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Cheswick2.0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 03:36 PM
Response to Original message
23. sorry, I remember what happened in Iowa
Telling me it didn;t happen is going to do no good at all. I worked my ass off to get him elected and no matter how anyone feels about it,and no matter how many inspirational stories you write about his history, I have earned the right to my own opinion.
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. How about some proof?
I've asked for proof of these Iowa allegations probably a hundred times. Never seen one bit. Here's your chance. Convince me.
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #24
33. Hello? Proof?
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #33
41. *tapping foot*
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. *tap tap tap*
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Reality Not Tin Foil Donating Member (325 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #42
56. You won't get any proof from him.
At least I haven't seen any...I've only seen flames thrown my way. And because I...GASP...Admit that Govenor Dean would make a creat DNC Chair but was a bad candidate who blew his chance.

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LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 06:58 PM
Response to Reply #56
59. I've asked for that proof myself
I keep hearing about what my guy did to Dean in Iowa. Well, I'm in the dark. Somebody enlighten me.

I still contend that if Dean couldn't overcome whatever in the primaries, that Bush wasn't going to be any easier.

Kerry fought like a lion.
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Cheswick2.0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 07:08 PM
Response to Reply #59
63. your guy?
he was Clintons stop Dean candidate. He said so on charlie Rose. Look it up.

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LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 07:19 PM
Response to Reply #63
65. Who said that: Clinton, Kerry or Dean
Hmmm?

Yeah, my guy. What are you saying, he was less legitimate if Clinton wanted him to stop Dean?

Are you saying Kerry didn't want to be prez?
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Mike L Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 07:16 PM
Response to Reply #63
143. Kerry stopped Dean when he drug out Jim Rassmann in Iowa.
Iowans saw who they thought was candidate that could beat Bush. They didn't get even half of the story.
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LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 05:17 AM
Response to Reply #143
149. I'm getting sick of these cryptic references
What the hell is the other half of the story?

I don't believe the Kerry/Rassmussen reunion was staged in any real way. I believe it happened just as Rassmussen said it did.

What are the dirty tricks that Kerry supposedly pulled on Dean in Iowa. Inquiring minds want to know.
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Cheswick2.0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 07:06 PM
Response to Reply #42
62. why are you pretending people have nothing better to do than to
Edited on Mon Nov-15-04 07:07 PM by Cheswick2.0
pay attention to your posts? Nice to see you are desperately seeking my attention. It makes me feel so important.

Proof? Give me a break Will. We were all around during the primaries we know what happened. I am not supplying you proof for what is common knowledge.

PS... I also remember how you jumped on every Gore or Dean thread for the last two years and played this same belligerent game. Karma sure is a bitch huh? I'm not impressed or intimidated. Nor am I a fan of your fantastical, florid rewriting of the Kerry story.

How's your electable, strong closer, won't take any shit candidate working out for ya?
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 07:20 PM
Response to Reply #62
66. Hyperbole and sour grapes aren't proof
Yes, 'we' were here for the primaries, and I still have no idea what you and the other Iowa tinfoilers were talking about back then. The first of my 100 requests for proof started then, and I'm still waiting, and your post did nothing to help.

*tap tap tap*
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Nazgul35 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 11:20 PM
Response to Reply #66
82. What are sour grapes over sour grapes than?
We are sorry Will....very sorry you didn't get a cool job in the White House...

Back to square one I guess...how long before you start pushing Hillary 2008?
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 11:24 PM
Response to Reply #82
84. I don't even know what that means
I'll push who I have to push to get these people out of power. You want moral? I can't think of a more moral course of action.
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anamandujano Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 01:39 AM
Response to Reply #62
96. Any spin on why he conceded so quickly and
why he asked us to support Bush? I just skimmed the article and thread so maybe there is something here.


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Djinn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 12:50 AM
Response to Reply #42
94. completely uninterested in this topic
as far as I'm concerned it's OLD news but had to say...

just because someone doen't answer you immediately doesn't mean they can't - perhaps Cheswick has a job and/or life and can't spend a solid hour and half on DU?

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emulatorloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #23
58. say it enough times and it will become true? EOM
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Cheswick2.0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 07:10 PM
Response to Reply #58
64. blah blah blah........ bullshitting other democrats and denial
haven't gotten us far have they? Try another tactic.
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 07:20 PM
Response to Reply #64
67. Like proof?
*tap tap tap*
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emulatorloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #64
75. say it enough times and it will become true? EOM
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KurtNYC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 03:38 PM
Response to Original message
25. Personally, I like Kerry but
Edited on Mon Nov-15-04 03:40 PM by KurtNYC
Buying a jockstrap with the media in tow? Clearly a weird mistake.
Saying "I voted for the 87 billion before I voted against the 87 billion" A politically unsavy remark which made our jobs harder.
Going windsurfing at every opportunity? Horrible photo ops -- lone rich guy in midlife crisis practicing a richy rich sport.

There were more but my point is 1) talking about what went wrong or right is not simply bashing Kerry. If it is done with realism and sensitivity, it is a useful process of getting better results next time. The candidate needs to be instinctively mindful of what works and what is a liability. The savy candidate would have responded to the Swift Boat liars on Day One of their attack. 2) there ARE candidates who come across better on television and who seem to better understand what it takes to connect with the average voter.

As for handling slanted coverage, summarizing Karl Rove's take on Dean, Mike Hersh noted: They fear Governor Dean because Dean thrives on slams and bad press. Clinton had a similar knack.

http://www.australianpolitics.com/news/2003/11/03-11-13b.shtml
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chimpymustgo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #25
38. "Dean thrives on slams and bad press"??? In what universe?
Dean, under pressure and long overdue media scrutiny completely imploded in Iowa - well before The Scream. He could not handle it. He was yelling at hecklers, begging Terry McAuliffe to make people stop picking on him - after he had been the biggest attack dog against the other candidates since day 1.

I have come to respect Dean enormously as a spokesman for the party since he dropped out. But he was a horrible candidate. Pressure will bust a pipe.
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ibegurpard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 03:41 PM
Response to Original message
28. You, yourself, were the author of several threads
about factions in the Party determined to take out Dean. Had he managed to pull off a primary win then I have no doubt he would have lost because he would've been running against the Republicans AND powerful Party insiders.
That's not a slam at Kerry although I must admit I am surprised that he didn't seem prepared for what many of us knew that he would be up against.
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #28
31. The frontrunner always always always gets tagged by the others
Edited on Mon Nov-15-04 03:48 PM by WilliamPitt
Go look up what Muskie went through in 1972, and then what McGovern went through in 1972, and what Humphrey went through in 1972. Wallace got shot in '72 the second he took the lead. Look up what Clinton went through in 1992. Look up what Bush went through in 2000. The frontrunner always gets attacked by the other primary candidates. That's not a conspiracy; that's American politics, and if a candidate cannot weather that primary storm, he or she has no business being the nominee.
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #31
125. And what did frontrunner Kerry go through from his fellow Dem
candidates the moment he assumed the mantle?

Jack Squat.

As a matter of fact, Kerry gained "frontrunner" status by winning the Iowa caucus. Kerry was protected by his Conressional buddies by vote swapping. Edwards w/ Kucinich, Gephardt w/ Kerry.

Move to the first post-Iowa debate. Remember how Kerry was hammered by his fellow candidates now that he was the "frontrunner?" Neither do I. Dean was challenged, rightfully so, in all the previous debates. Kerry got a pass.

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zulchzulu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 03:42 PM
Response to Original message
29. I call them "air counters"
People who demand we find out the votes from electronic machines that have no paper trail surely must believe we can count air and somehow bring this "evidence" in a court of law to prove someone voted a particular way.

That's an "air counter". There is nothing wrong with an "air counter" in terms of intention and feeling mad about the obvious; what's annoying is that they don't see that legal evidence in a court of law demands tangible molecules of matter.

Most people knew that the Diebold machines that didn't offer a paper receipt were going to be a problem. We were gamed by the Repugs that allowed such machines to go into communities and we were gamed by Diebold.

Do we need electronic voting reform? You bet. Will it happen by 2006? We'll see. Do we need political ad reform? Obviously. More controls on campaign finance reform? Damn right.

Let's stop the circular firing squad and work toward these reforms. Otherwise, we're fucked.
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anamandujano Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 01:58 AM
Response to Reply #29
102. "we're fucked."
"Do we need electronic voting reform? You bet. Will it happen by 2006? We'll see."

The dems have had a bill in for a year or so (for a paper trail for the diebolds) , so said Jerrold Nadler on Charlie Rose last friday. The republicans have resisted it, he didn't know why.

The repukes have increased their margins in both houses. What kind of chance does a bill like that have now? (Answer in the subject line of this post.)
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GumboYaYa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 03:51 PM
Response to Original message
35. I am a Dean supporter who became a Kerry supporter.
Edited on Mon Nov-15-04 03:52 PM by GumboYaYa
You have not heard any "latter-day" criticism from me. Personally, I think any candidate we run will be excoriated in the press. Pick any person in the primary and the result would have been the same most likely.

My problem with Kerry is that now he is allegedly behind the scenes trying to to put Vilsack in as head of the DNC to stop Dean. That is just a little too two-faced for me. During the election the DNC and Kerry stumbled over themselves to get Dean's support. Dean gladly gave the support become a great advocate for Kerry. Now Kerry appears to be stabbing Dean in the back to maintain the status quo at the DNC.

Sorry, but if it is true that Kerry is doing this behind the scenes he has lost all the goodwill he built with me over the campaign. If the DNC goes to Vilsack, I may be saying hello to the Greens in 2006.
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nomatrix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 03:51 PM
Response to Original message
36.  This one is actually worth a look
Ex Girlfriend Writes Book on Kerry


I didn't see anything negative on John, actually would have helped his "Harlequin Romance" votes.

The DU posts shook me out of my depression.
Some of the best humor is found at DU!
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rockydem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 03:54 PM
Response to Original message
37. Dean was destroyed by the money-grubbers
The filth that can't see the light, who live in the shadows of a power mad world.

Now they are comin' out of the woodwork all over the country trying to save their reps.

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lastliberalintexas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 04:15 PM
Response to Original message
40. While I didn't support Kerry in the primaries
I have had to defend him a couple of times since. Yes, Kerry ran a pretty bad campaign, and the things I didn't like about Kerry came back to bite us in the ass (lack of charisma, gun control votes) However, it wasn't Kerry's fault that we lost, since I concede that ANY of our candidates would have fared no better. I say that with a fair amount of certainty, since our party is entirely inept when it comes to dealing with the realities of BBV.

Either that, or the party is in on it too.



That said, some people here really need to let go of their Dean/Deanie hatred.
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Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 05:16 PM
Response to Original message
43. I agreed with many Kerry positions...
Edited on Mon Nov-15-04 05:18 PM by Q
...especially on choice and religion. But you seem to forget that he was an ABB candidate for a vast number of Democrats. Although we supported him through the campaign...we didn't think he had much chance of winning because he was taking the advice of the DLCers who wanted him to avoid (or soften the tone on) many of the important issues facing America.
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #43
44. Again, you make legitimate complaints
See above.
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meti57b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 06:13 PM
Response to Original message
53. great candidate! I didn't think his campaign was the best ...
we could have done.

Dems let that swiftboat thing go unanswered all through August.... four weeks of it.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 07:00 PM
Response to Original message
60. Kerry made Vietnam the centerpiece of his campaign
Unfortunately most voters were too young, or weren't even alive when Kerry was shooting 8mm movies of himself prancing about the jungle.

If you wanted a "war hero" perhaps Wes Clark would have done better. At least Clark didn't have a disputable voting record.


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chyjo Donating Member (615 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #60
133. actually to me he did. His votes for Reagan
were very disputable in the primaries.
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NoPasaran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #60
134. Unfortunately, the only people who still care about Vietnam
Are the rightwing crazies with a bone up their ass because they imagine that the war could have been "won".

Everyone else seems to have pretty much forgotten about it, or not cared to learn---which is why it's so easy for us to repeat the experience in Iraq.
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LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 07:04 PM
Response to Original message
61. Thanks Mr. Pitt. I would add one bit to the bio, though
It doesn't make clear enough that Kerry only got to go to those ultra exclusive schools because of a maiden aunt. His father was a low-level civil servant. The family was comfortable, and related to money, but they certainly were not privileged. He had a more ordinary upbringing than Bush did, certainly.

Even so, he is unique in his Preppy Veteran status. Few with his options went the direction he did in service.

I too think that he is one hell of a strong candidate. Sadly, he reminds me of Lincoln, in that we'd have trouble getting old Abe elected too.

I'm not done trying though. I want a man like Kerry in the White House.
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Larkspur Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 07:43 PM
Response to Original message
69. Hey, Will, did Kerry pay off his $6.4 million mortage on his half of
his Beacon Hills mansion yet?

Inquiring minds want to know.
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Demobrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #69
74. You're kidding, right?
That was paid off out of campaign funds before he made the first payment.
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Demobrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 07:50 PM
Response to Original message
70. People are allowed to criticize Kerry here now?
I thought anybody who had reservations about the annointed one had their posts pulled immediately and were banned forthwith.
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Larkspur Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 07:53 PM
Response to Original message
71. Will, you also forgot this piece of Kerry biography...
He's U-N-E-L-E-C-T-I-B-L-E !!!!

Kerry couldn't beat the most corrupt and most incompetent president in history. Kerry LOST to Bush because he tried to be like Bush and as Harry Truman says, if voters have a choice between a Republican and a Democrat pretending to be Republican, the Republican wins.
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robbedvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 11:00 PM
Response to Reply #71
78. Nope. He won. Then folded.
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anamandujano Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 01:45 AM
Response to Reply #78
97. Well, he's giving us another chance in 2008.
I'm just glad he's all fired up.
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robbedvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #97
126. Chance to what? Cry in our teacups? Throw our votes in Diebold trash cans?
What is all the firing up all about?
ABB won.
The use of "later day" is insulting - considering most of us held our nose for the greater good.
My criticism is these days pointed SOLELY - at the ignoring of election fraud. And it's a continuation of said criticism since 2000 - hence my ORIGINAL handle.
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anamandujano Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #126
135. I"m on your side
I was being sarcastic. The idea that he thinks he's running again means that he really thinks the voters are stupid beyond words.

I argued that Gore should run with all potential candidates throwing their voices behind him, because there was no way any new candidate was going to escape the same treatment by the press. Also thought the whole campaign should blow the voting machines issue out of the water.

I said that the press would have to re run all their stuff from 2000 and everyone would get bored--either no one would watch or the media would have to get some new angles to tear Gore apart, and you know how lazy they are. Lot's here said Kerry could look after himself. Guess it didn't happen.
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 07:57 PM
Response to Original message
73. thanks for an excellent bio
it's a shame that in Murka, the cream no longer rises to the top.

Great man, imperfect campaign, tragically flawed election.
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graywarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 08:02 PM
Response to Original message
76. The rest of the country never learned this information
Viet nam was at the center of the campaign. What a waste of talent.
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LSK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 08:13 PM
Response to Original message
77. excellent read on an excellent man, makes me mad at freepers
It makes me boil over in rage when I think about all the CRAP freepers made up to put a bad image on such a perfect candidate.

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Anarcho-Socialist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 11:13 PM
Response to Original message
79. Thanks for the article, great post n/t
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WildEyedLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 11:23 PM
Response to Original message
83. Not only the "latter day" criticism
But also those who claim to have disliked him from the get go. And all those people threatening to go Green next election. Somehow, if your support is that shallow and superficial, I doubt it's all that integral to the campaign, so chances are we won't miss you anyway.

I love how suddenly people have decided that Kerry had some fatal flaw or that he was suddenly unelectable, as if some other Democratic candidate would magically have been immune to RW smears. Only our party will crucify our own candidate and blame him for things beyond his control, like horrendous media bias and an opponent with the moral fiber of Ted Bundy. So many people here scream and wail that by conceding, Kerry isn't "fighting for us." No, he's just smart enough not to walk into a transparent Bush/Rove booby trap. The Bushies were WAITING for him to raise a fuss and file lawsuits; it would've played right into their grubby little hands. All right, Kerry haters and Doubting Thomases - in four years, if John Kerry has sat on his ass and done jack shit against Bush, I'll admit you were right. But only then will I lose faith. And, given the story of his life thus far, the chances of that happening are less than the chances of Bush actually being a good, inclusive, and honest President.

I also like how someone accused your biography of being hagiographical. It must be nice for some people to disregard truths that don't mesh with their narrowly defined worldview. Actually, the last time I checked, those people were called Republicans.
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Pastiche423 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 02:12 AM
Response to Reply #83
104. My decision that Kerry had a fatal flaw
did come suddenly. It came on October 10, 2002.

He folded to whistle ass then and he folded once again to whistle ass on November 3, 2004.
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angrydemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 05:45 AM
Response to Reply #83
110. I Agree You 100%
Edited on Tue Nov-16-04 05:53 AM by angrydemocrat
WildEyedLiberal,

It is nice to find someone other than myself willing to stand up for this man. It is truly unreal how some of these people change their mind and support of a canidate like turning a light switch off and on. Kerry poured his heart and soul in this campaign just as alot of his supporters did. All the remarks about he's a quitter and the down right nasty remarks that some of these make has gotten to the point you know these people don't know nothing about Kerry. Because if they did you wouldn't hear all the trash you do. This man has never been a quitter in his life. Kerry is a very smart and intelligent man, he has always been a fighter not a quitter, he is a true patriot, he loves this country as much as anyone, and he will never stop fighting and working for the people of this country. If you want to know who the real quitters are it is all the people that supported him a few weeks ago and trusted him enough to vote for him and then wham when things didn't go to suit them, kerry didn't do what they wanted him to when they think he should have then they turned their backs on him and started all the name calling and nasty remaks. So if this description fits any of you reading this go take a long hard look in the mirror and you will see who the real quitter is! Kerry was a attorney himself he knows what he is doing and how to go about it to come out with the best results. He brought down BCCI. It didn't happen overnight but he did it. This man has been in politics for alot of years and he knows that he can still unconcede if they can prove he won this election. But he is also smart enough to know had he not of conceded when he did they would have the media and repugs with all their spin and have the repugs getting in their way trying to cover their A$$ES to cover up all the fraud and intimadation. But Kerry is smarter than that by saying he conceded they are off running their mouth making their brags and doing all there planning all the while they are digging up evidence of fraud and intimidation and trying to prove he won this election. I also know for a fact wether this election is overturned or not before all is said and done Bush and the repugs are going to wish they never heard the name Kerry!
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lastliberalintexas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 10:30 AM
Response to Reply #83
119. Wow
You've been registered here for a month, but you're so certain that these posters' criticisms of Kerry came "suddenly"? Guess you weren't lurking here during the primaries...


And Kerry HAS sat on his ass and done jack shit against Bush for 4 years- the past 4. Read his voting record, please don't just take my word for it. So why would anyone think the next 4 will be any different?
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WildEyedLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #119
130. Not talking about the primaries
Obviously I wasn't here during the primaries. I'm talking about the weeks preceding the election, when there was so much support for John Kerry, support which seemed to evaporate the day after. Because he didn't take the obvious path of litigation (which, I reiterate, is exactly what KKKarl wanted him to do), there is much wailing and gnashing of teeth about his "cowardice" or his lack of conviction.

I think the problem is that people have reverted to the primary mindset, and returned to their old criticisms of him from then and insisted that if their guy had got the nomination, we would've won etc. That's just sour grapes to me, and pointless speculation. Also, as I recall, John Kerry has spent the last year and a half of his life trying to get Bush out of office. I don't call that jack shit, personally.
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lastliberalintexas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #130
131. One had to support Kerry
or stay silent on the subject in order to keep posting here. That was the administrators' rule- one that they had every right to impose at their website. For the most part, I personally stayed silent.

Some people truly did start to like him. But for most, it seemed like it was more of an arranged marriage than a true courtship.
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angrydemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #119
145. You are right about one thing.................
.....I have only been registered for a short amount of time and I wasn't here during the primaries. But it sure don't take a rocket scientist to figure out the ones who supported Kerry then voted for him and when everything didn't go their way and Kerry didn't do what they wanted him to, when they wanted him to do, and how the wanted him to do it they started calling they man names and making nasty remarks. All you have to do is read the boards very simple you don't have to be a member for the past two years.

Now why wasn't I here? Well I will tell you. I didn't have time to sit on my A$$ in front of the computer all day. I along with thousands of others worked for Kerry from day one. And everyone of us had a great time doing so and will gladly and proudly do it again!
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Jo March Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #83
121. Hear! Hear! I agree, WildEyedLiberal
I supported Kerry from the get-go and was only more sure of my support when he picked Edwards as a running mate.

Kerry is a good man. Did we all forget that? Who says that he was unelectable? The results from the "election" that we all know was flawed (to say the least)? I'm certain that Kery was electable and was elected.

If Kerry was President-Elect Kerry right now, would we have all of these negative posts about him? Hell, no.

The exit polls showed Kerry winning. The votes were there, people. Did you miss all of the pictures of the MASSIVE crowds that Kerry commanded?

I won't ever say that Kerry was unelectable. That is just crap.

History will bear out that Kerry did win. He was cheated and robbed of the Presidency.
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LiberalAndProud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 11:31 PM
Response to Original message
86. Thank you WilliamPitt. I am saving this. I yearn for him to be president.
He was the man for this time. I believed it when I voted. I believe it now.
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valis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 11:31 PM
Response to Original message
87. Let's face it: we were led down the precipice by blind leaders.
That's all I can say. Now nobody knows exactly how to get out of it.
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evilqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 11:42 PM
Response to Original message
90. Thanks Will.
Well written, as usual, too.

I'm saving this one.
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Senator Lamb Donating Member (492 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 11:48 PM
Response to Reply #90
91. stop it
Kerry was not a repubican lite DLC, he was and is a LIBERAL. he lost because the American people didnt do their homework.
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BlueInRed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 12:38 AM
Response to Original message
92. It played out like I said in 2/04; I'm not revising history
Edited on Tue Nov-16-04 01:18 AM by BlueInRed
I always thought Kerry was a candidate who appealed to the base, but not to swingers. I thought he'd win the primaries because the base picks the nominee. Kerry wasn't pulling in the independents in the open primaries; they were going for Clark, Edwards, Dean, etc. The base was focused on Kerry's resume; swingers focused on whether they felt comfortable with Kerry.

This is a very old debate. There were plenty who wanted someone besides Kerry because they saw qualities they thought would cost us swing states.

For example:
* I said that most swingers don't vote on resume (Vietnam) or issues (the majority agrees with our issues), but they vote on their gut reaction to a person. Right or wrong, smart or not, this is what history proves. Kerry was a resume and issues candidate, not a gut reaction candidate.
* I said back then that Kerry would abandon the South and not try to win it. He did exactly that. I can't see Edwards, Clark, Graham or Dean abandoning the South entirely. Too many electoral votes in places like Tennessee, Missouri, West Virginia & Arkansas to simply toss aside.
* I said that DNC strategists would focus on Ohio and Florida because of the large # of electoral votes, ignoring the strong possibility that vote fraud would steal the votes away (ie, Wally & Jeb). That is what has happened. BBV has been saying this for over a year.
* I said Shrum & his team would run the same flat-footed campaign they always did. They did. It's 0-8 I think.
* I said ABB was enough for the base, but not for the swingers. That proved true.
* I said Kerry's Iraq vote would prove a real problem and it did.
* I said Rove would push horrible wedge issues at the swingers and I wasn't sure Kerry was a gifted enough speaker (like Clinton) to deflect them back on the Bushies.
* I said the out of touch Massachusetts liberal label (whether fair or not) was a problem in the purple states. It goes to the gut reaction, regardless of Kerry's actual record.

Please, I know what I said & it happened; I'm not revising history. And I REALLY wanted to be wrong -- I desperately wanted * gone.

Slap the johnny come latelies around all you like, but some people said these things all along. We were in the minority in the primaries. :)

On edit: One person I did misread - Gephardt. I was never a fan, but I have to admit he would've had more of a connection to the people we lost -- working class folks in purple states. And the possibility of him delivering Missouri might have made a difference. And the DNC insiders would have been fine with him.
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 02:49 AM
Response to Reply #92
109. Great post
Nicely argued.
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BlueInRed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 11:02 AM
Response to Reply #109
122. thanks
:)
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cprise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 01:21 AM
Response to Original message
95. whatever.
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 02:48 AM
Response to Reply #95
108. Eloquent counter-argument
or something.
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AntiCoup2K4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 01:46 AM
Response to Original message
98. Latter Day attacks? You mean attacks from Orrin Hatch and Mitt Romney?
:shrug:
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 01:48 AM
Response to Original message
99. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
geek tragedy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 01:51 AM
Response to Original message
100. His big problem was that he was the wrong guy to deliver the populist
message.

A campaign emphasizing populist economics would have benefited from a candidate who wasn't an elitist or an aristocrat.

And an Alpha Male, ass-kicking stance on national security wasn't sufficiently credible to swing voters coming from someone with his record since serving in Vietnam.

The Dems's two major weaknesses this election cycle were the perception that they were out of touch with mainstream voters in small towns and rural areas, and that they didn't take national security as seriously as the Republicans.

Kerry was not the kind of candidate who could overcome those question marks about his own party.
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Demi_Babe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 01:58 AM
Response to Original message
101. Thank you...great read!
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 02:02 AM
Response to Original message
103. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Lexingtonian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 02:17 AM
Response to Original message
105. Right on, Will!

I look at these as attempts to sow divisiveness and sabotage Kerry with his core groups.

There is just too much effort by (recognizable) conservative infiltrees being expended around here, exploiting latent conservative tendencies or engrained stupid ideas and selfpity. Very Communist of them, but isn't everything on their side these days.

Look, the Republicans are deathly scared of the 48% support for Democrats holding together as solidly as it has. They're feeling fragile by comparison.

It's The Electorate, Stupid. And it wants Democrats to bring renewal. Not "reform", not repackaging of revisionist latent or crypto-conservatives.
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txindy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 02:24 AM
Response to Original message
106. Great piece, Will. Thanks for posting it.
I'm reluctantly coming to the conclusion that those who can turn on someone so suddenly and so virulently, never truly believed in him the first place. And that's a shame.

I still believe. And I have no problem saying that.
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bklyncowgirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 06:53 AM
Response to Original message
112. A couple hundred thousand more votes in Ohio and Florida and...
...we'd be calling the man Mr. President.

Kerry ran a good campeign and in the last couple of weeks after the debates I thought he'd hit his stride and that there was a good chance of him winning.

Considering what he was up against, that says alot. The guy was battling an opponent who was prepared to use any means necessary to win and a media that had no interest in trying to tell people the truth. I had always believed that he would have had to get almost 10% more of the vote overall in order to counteract the sort of cheating, voter intimidation and vote rigging that the Republicans were going to pull.

I am disappointed that he conceded so quickly. I also have my criticisms of the primary process that got him the nomination. I think that there were many flaws in the campeign but I also am not convinced that Dean (who I like very much) or Clark (who I like very much) would have done any better.

All in all, I think he's a good man, perhaps too good for this particular period in history.
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CroixRoussienne Donating Member (49 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 07:20 AM
Response to Original message
114. As a Certifiable Deaniac
It took me a long time to come around on John Kerry. As the endless campaign wore on, I learned much more about the man than I had known, even though I am old enough to have faced the draft.

He is truly an old-school statesman, and has my respect and support. So far.
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shockra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 07:41 AM
Response to Original message
115. Oh please
Like I want to read even one more word about Kerry's life. I was sick of hearing about it a month into the primaries. It's like the Democrats annointed a false god to mirror the Republican's false god of George W. Bush.

As to the DNC not blatantly manipulating our choice -- I suspect most of us know how political, for example, the entertainment business is. What matters most are your connections, more than talent or looks. Millions of people have talent and looks. The power brokers in those industries annoint their chosen ones and then advertise the hell out of them, hyping them to the skies, and most of the time it works. The public starts to believe they're actually worthy of fame. If the entertainment industry is that political, then well politics itself is absolutely so.

The major moment that turned me off of Kerry was during the primaries. I watched speech after speech on C-Span of each candidate (and it was hard to catch one of Al Sharpton, but I managed most of one) and no sooner had I turned on a Kerry speech than he had an occasion to shock me. A middle-aged woman was sitting next to her husband telling Kerry a heartfelt story about how rough their lives had become under Bush, and that she "was more afraid of Bush than of the terrorists." You just weren't used to hearing people say things like that at the time. Kerry chuckled dismissively, and kept right on talking past the emotional impact of her statement. HE DIDN'T GET IT. I sympathized with her completely and was thouroughly taken aback by his response. The one thing that I had assumed we were all on the same page about, ESPECIALLY the candidates for president, was that George Bush was the most serious, urgent threat to democracy imaginable and should be removed, like, yesterday!!!

I was so bewildered by the Kerry following I remember writing an angry letter to the editor early in the primaries, ending with "Kerry is leading the Democrats like sheep to the slaughter." How the hell I wish that wasn't true. All of the people who worked their hearts out and gave money have been kicked in the gut by his speedy concession. Sure, he worked hard all year too. But on his own behalf, not ours.

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HFishbine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 09:24 AM
Response to Original message
117. As one who worked my tail off for Kerry
After donating scarce dollars to the Kerry campaign and the DNC, after going door-to-door in my neighborhood to register voters, after distributing yard signs and bumper stickers galore, after 20 hours of phone banking, after going door-to-door during early voting, after writing a letter to the editor in support of Kerry, after knocking on over 200 doors on election day to get out voters, I've earned the right to criticize, question and lament if I feel like it.

Cynical jerks who never lifted a finger and were just waiting for the opportunity to unleash on Kerry have no room to talk. But those of us who supported another candidate in the primary yet rallied around Kerry and played the role of good little foot soldiers are entitled to a little reflection, even if it is critical of Kerry.
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sampsonblk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #117
139. Small disagreement regarding your entitlement point
I can understand some people not lifting a finger as you (and I) did. Some Dems had a real conscience thing about supporting John Kerry. Some of the positions he took really rubbed people wrong.

I said several times early on that I would never ever vote for Kerry, only to do the good soldier thing just as you did. But looking back, I don't feel any more entitled to complain than those who jumped off the boat after hearing some of the things Kerry said - like supporting Ariel Sharon's fence. Like saying he'd still vote for the IWR even after knowing what he knows now. Some people had a real problem with that stuff - as I did.
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hippiechick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 09:31 AM
Response to Original message
118. Blah Blah Blah ....
:eyes:


:hippie:
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unfrigginreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 10:41 AM
Response to Original message
120. Revisions? It seems the same people that loved him early also loved
the campaign that he ran. If you mean revisions in that after the nomination some 'swallowed their own vomit'( I stole that sentiment from someone ) to support the guy and now are expressing their disappointment, then I guess you might have a point.
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ventvon Donating Member (137 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 11:07 AM
Response to Original message
123. I don't attack, I point out.
I'm also not saying anything that I haven't said since January 2003.
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robbedvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 11:59 AM
Response to Original message
127. Candidate talk makes no sense, seing that we didn't have an election
(or that, to the extent we had one, we, ABB, won)
Digby - the perfect candidate?
 http://haloscan.com/tb/digby/110046577887234397
The Pageant
Atrios is full of 'tude these days and rightly so. This nonsense about finding leaders who are immune from GOP criticism is just ridiculous. I thought we all understood that the attack machine has no relationship to the truth. There is no such thing as an acceptable Democrat anymore. There isn't even such a thing as an acceptable moderat republican anymore. Look what they are doing to Specter.
I simply cannot believe that after the last twelve years any Democrat still believes that there are limits to what the Republicans will say to assassinate someone's character or how far the SCLM will go to promulgate it if the story is juicy enough. Perhaps Mr Nelson needs to make a run for the presidency and see if all that Red state love sees him through.

That being said, no excuse for folding, for ignoring the cooking of elections - from 2000 onward. No excuse for the "Get over it" remark, for the lack of legislative muscle to keep Diebold away, the burrying head in sand after 2002 fraud, the concession....
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KerryDownUnder Donating Member (73 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 12:15 PM
Response to Original message
128. Kerry would have won decisively if...
Edited on Tue Nov-16-04 12:16 PM by KerryDownUnder
a) He had run the same campaign in the months of January-August that he did in September-November.

b) He had not made the $87 billion comment...no matter how accurate, it was just too easy to smear him with it.

c) He had had addressed the Swift Boat Liars the day after they started running ads (and done so by offering an apology to anyone who was offended - it's all in the eye of the beholder, you know - with his 1971 testimony/comments - it wouldn't have stopped them, but it would have made their attacks appear even more lame than they were).

And when I say decisively, I say he would have flipped 500,000 votes in OH, he would have also flipped more than enough votes in NM, NV, IA, and FL...Kerry would have won something like 316-222.
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mogster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 12:34 PM
Response to Original message
129. I've always liked Kerry. He would have been a GREAT president!
Edited on Tue Nov-16-04 12:41 PM by mogster
Too bad he didn't get the chance.
As for the tripe-slinging, little of it stuck here in Europe.

I've tried to kick some ass on US. boards every time I've seen the Right-Right drag him down - which, of course, happened all the time:

-----------
> After arriving in Vietnam, he received three injuries so devastating that he spent a total of 1 day of sick leave. For three injuries? He must be the toughest guy ever to wear the uniform...or...

It's so very interesting to see you try to underplay the US military's own way of appreciating the sacrifices people do for their country.
Don't you trust the Army's own system of awards, that Kerry DID in fact do a decent job?
Seems to me that you don't know the US Army too well - perhaps you'd care to state your own service record?

> Kerry may offer something valuable to the office of the Presidency, but military service is not it. It is not logically possible to support a man who denounces a war, charging his own government with atrocities, confessing that he committed atrocities himself, and then runs on the premise that his military service contributes to his qualifications as commander in chief.

On the contrary - it is.
Kerry's military experience and willingness to ask questions about afterwards is a huge asset to bring into the Presidency when you think about the current world situation.

The combination of the willingness to sacrifice and the ability to ask questions about it afterwards is very important to a President about to start the cleanup of the Republican mess.
-----------

I watched a program on TV prior to the election, from the first debate with the leader of the infamed Swift boat veterans for truth, in 1968 or something. The SBVFT-guy, this male version of Linda Tripp, looked perfectly uncomfortable in young Kerry's company, I'll tell you :-D

That a perfectly decent military carreer is turned into crap, and the guy that screwed and boozed himself through his is turned into something worthwile (if not divine), well, that just shows how little the Repubs know about what war really is.
Guess this list has been posted before, but hey - a good thing can't be viewed too often?
http://www.democrats.us/beta/forum/view_topic.php?id=1896&forum_id=9

It's about like this:
1. Republican support in the population grows
2. Unjust (or just plain weird) wars start
3. Reality of what a war really does (bodybags, disabled people, unpopularity, unstable economy, limp wallet et cetera) overcomes population (not to mention: troops) and restores reality mindset.
4. Democrat(ic) support in population grows
5. Economy boosts, population biases towards commericialism (=republican)
6. Republican support in the population grows
7. Unjust (or just plain weird) wars start

And so on.
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deutsey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 02:00 PM
Response to Original message
132. I think in order to beat Bush,
Edited on Tue Nov-16-04 02:26 PM by deutsey
the Democrats needed to ignite a fire of passionate grassroots activism in the electorate.

As much as I grew to believe Kerry was better than Bush, I just did not see his campaign do that. I base this assertion on the many anti-Bush people I know who just did not find Kerry the type of candidate they could rally behind with much enthusiasm. They voted for him, some even did campaign work for him, but I heard lots of people say they were working more to help oust Bush than they were to elect Kerry.

That kind of support just doesn't do much to help tip the scales in our favor, especially with the zealotry of Bush's supporters.

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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 03:36 PM
Response to Original message
136. Dukakis also ran a great primary campaign
In retrospect it is very hard to imagine that virtually anyone he had beaten in 88 wouldn't have run a better campaign in the general.
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 03:38 PM
Response to Original message
137. why'd he quit so soon?
and so meekly?
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sampsonblk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 04:45 PM
Response to Original message
138. Who are you trying to convince?
Great bio. Baaaad, uninspired campaign. Kerry never got any strong traction with voters from either party. His main support was ABB, and he never seemed to understand that. The whole swing voter strategy was damn near a betrayal of all the lifelong Dems who work so hard to win for our party. And it was based on assumptions that so many people here knew were flawed.

There are people at this board, including yourself, who can explain in just a few words why voters MUST not elect Bush to a second term. But John Kerry never did that.
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AuntPatsy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 06:48 PM
Response to Original message
140. All that I can concede about Kerry at this point after reading this
short essay on his underground accomplishments is that he seems to have had more of an impact behind the scenes than he has ever had in front of them..

There were many details of Kerry's career that was entirely ignored by his campaign committee that in my mind should have been used in an effort to get those who did not wish to know this candidate on a more personal footing which never happened because of what was seemingly a blackout of alot of Kerry's true accomplishments that were definately worth mentioning but were largely ignored not only by the media..

If he runs again in 2008 without 2004 being upheld to a more factual accounting of it's accuracy regarding the voting scandals, he in my opinion will have to do more than just talk the talk to gather back alot of his lost flock..

Kerry won this election of this I have no doubt had it been more accurate in it's tallying, this would have shown itself to be a fact, but for personal reasons known to a select few I am sure he chose to give up seemingly without an ounce of the fighting persona he chose to portray..

You cannot expect any less of the amount of hee hawing we have been seeing since Nov 3 towards a candidate who seemed to base his campaign towards the end on fighting any and all seemingly small or large inconsistances that was foreseeable regarding this election for the past four years swearing he would fight to the bitter end...

His past will not win back his shaky base at this point no matter how much one repeats such, only his present or future accomplishments that can prove the fighting mantal that he used so visibly on the campaign trail to be more of a factual perspective of his character and not a more fictionalized accounting would be the key to regain his deserters back inside his camp..

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Mike L Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 06:58 PM
Response to Original message
142. We need a better way to screen primary candidates.
The candidates can't beat each other up because they must support the winner later. I wish some independent Dem group (how would it be formed?) would dig up the worst dirt on each candidate (hire Chris Lehane to dig it up) and lay it all out for us to see before the start of the primary season so we can choose the best candidate to win the general election.

Kerry wasn't the candidate we thought we were buying in the primaries. Iowans didn't know about his 1971 Senate testimony or the fact he used the obscure Navy three purple heart rule to leave Vietnam in 4 months. I don't think that anyone knew he was capable of saying so many dumb things and not taking a firm position on the War. Dumb things-- I voted for.....before I voted against it; sensitive war; global test; terrorism...nuisance. You would think that a 20 year politician would have learned something.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 04:02 AM
Response to Reply #142
146. Saying dumb things?
You are only capable of even remembering them because the SCLM kept repeating them 24/7. The Spoiled Brat in Chief was caught by the Brits punching his fist in the air, smirking and saying "I feel good!" Did we get that even once, as opposed to hearing nothing else after the Dean 'scream' and the 'global test'? How about 600 repetitions of "Let me finish!" addressed to someone who was obviously not there at the first debate? Didn't see that anywhere either. Not sure that any Dem could have won against our current media.
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bleever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 07:20 PM
Response to Original message
144. Right on. Still believe. A little early to turn on such a good guy.
Thanks, Will, for being in on this, and for all the fantastic work you do at Truthout. :yourock:
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Gelliebeans Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 04:27 AM
Response to Original message
147. thank you
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Sleepless In NY Donating Member (749 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 05:11 AM
Response to Reply #147
148. Kerry is a good man, but I feel sorrier for Kristen Breitweiser
I dont regret voting for Kerry, but I do regret the free pass he gave bush on 9/11. That last debate where Kerry told bush he did a good job on 9/11? I thought I would be physically ill. Bush ignored every warning given him, and Richard Clarke, sat through the attack & then flew away & hid. That's a good job?

Then I think of Kristen Breitweiser & her "Jersey Girls" fighting for that commission, being stonewalled by bush, being called names by Rush & his minions. These women were the real fighters. And they came out and backed Kerry. But I'm sorry he never championed their cause or dared mention that bush bordered on incompetent.

And what was suppose to be bush's greatest strength? National Security. 3,000 dead and two towers down on his watch, and they let him get away with it. Why?

Well the election is over and I wish the Kerry & Edwards family well. What I'd like to see now is for Kerry & the democrats to
do everything they can to prevent Condi Rice's appointment. She doesnt deserve it. So I'm just going to sit back, be quiet & see what my party does. That will tell me all I need to know for 2008.



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