where we set up, played - before the primaries?

[donsu]

before the primaries Dean was the winner.

we all watched the primaries and saw Kerry win. two and two did not come up four. something happened at the primaries. the one I watched had a woman and several men going from group to group looking like they had an agenda. I could smell something rotten through the TV.

Kerry was gungho up until the election where afterward he gave a way early "I lost" speech and faded away and disappeared.

I feel like I've been played.

[BUSHOUT]

1. No, Dean sunk his own boat.

The rest is incidental. Of course lobbyists circulate at a primary convention.

[donsu]

2. I don't believe Dean sunk his own boat

nt

[Howardx]

4. im with you

i dont either

[The Wielding Truth]

9. Me either I think a contrived media moment got him.

[TR Fan]

11. But he lost Iowa

before the endlessly replayed "scream moment." Perhaps his comments made on Canadian TV during, I think, the previous year and played on NBC a few days before the caucases, that (paraphrasing) it was silly to let the few people in Iowa play such a large part in the electoral process, hurt him just as much.


edit: added "part in the" in last sentence for comprehension

[Atlant]

12. But, of course, it *IS* silly to let Iowa (and NH)...

But, of course, it *IS* silly to let Iowa (and NH) choose the Democratic
candidate since they so rarely (and/or so shallowly) support the
eventual Democratic candidate.

As usual, Dean got dinged for telling the obvious truth!

Atlant

[TR Fan]

13. I agree completely

but, when you tell a group that they are not as relevant (or shouldn't be) as they think they are and then turn around and ask for their vote, well...

[Rambis]

32. Iowans didn't shove Kerry down the throat of a nation!

Other states didn't have to back us up at all. We picked the guy we liked no one twisted the arms of the rest of the country. We thought a Veitnam vet hero would make a good candidate who knew the swift boat liars would be so effective.

[HFishbine]

16. And Iowa was stinky

First, the Gephardt sponsored attack ads against Dean (Dean and Osama), followed by Kucinich directing his supporters to caucus for Edwards. Seems as if Iowa turned into Anybody But Dean. It worked.

[Cheswick2.0]

20. those were Gephardt Kerry adds

Kerry's people were also helping to fund those adds.

[HFishbine]

23. I'd like to see your proof

Not that I'm arguing with you, but I followed the trail pretty closely when that crap was going down and seem to recall that the only evidence was to Gephardt's "people."

[HR_Pufnstuf]

5. And bush did too...

... when he said "internets".

The only difference is the Media didnt play that soundbite 630 times.

[okieinpain]

14. yes, he did. he made some mistakes. allowed kerry to pigeon hole

him. like on the medicare deal, but I believe dean is one of those people that learns from a mistake and would be smart enough not to do it again.

we need his brain, running things.

[bullimiami]

24. me either. our dean boat got torpedoed

and out lifeboats shot out from under us.

[BUSHOUT]

31. Regardless of the fairness of it, he was the one who screamed n/t

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

3. Sorry, Dean lost. Period.

[Atlant]

8. You should be sorry Dean lost.

The political assassination of Dean set the stage for the
Kerry Debacle.

Atlant

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

10. Political assassination did occur. I agree.

However, I still don't think Dean was the right candidate. There was no way he was going to win at the pace he was going. He peaked really early and had no place else to go.

[Cheswick2.0]

21. nah...he didn't peak too early

He was beat up by his own party

[flordehinojos]

6. I understand your suspicions.

Back in 2002 when Janet Reno and Bill McBride were running against each other in the primaries, it is said by some, that McBride was somehow in cahoots with Jeb Bush so as to steal the primaries from Reno ... so that Jeb, who really feared the possibility of a Reno win, because he knew she would wipe him out would have to face McBride rather than Reno in the gubernatorial elections... and that somehow. through this arranged state between McBride and Bush the field would be left open for Jeb Bush to beat McBride as his opponent. (Reno did lose to McBride through problems with the machines, but McBride had garnered enough votes that claims to voter fraud were not raised or raised only in a very weak, faint sort of voice)... and in an interview with Glenna Millberg of Miami's Channel 10 on the morning of the elections before all the votes were in and before all the votes were counted ... McBride exuded the image of a guy who knew he was going to be beat.

So, was Kerry set up by Skulls and Bones, or through the Skulls and Bones connection, to take the democratic nomination away from the others so that Bush could STEAL the elections without so much as a peep from Kerry ... In Bush world, anything and everything is possible, even when others make it sound like a conspiracy theory!

[Eloriel]

7. You BET we were played

It was the DNC/DLC along with Kerry, Gephardt, some of their friends, the Vilsack and Shaheen "machines." ANd oh, yes, a little backroom deal between Kucinich and Edwards in Iowa.

Not that the campaign didn't make mistakes -- but not enough to sink him completely by itself. Nor did the extremely short time frames between Iowa and NH help -- he was picking up steam mightily, but ran out of time.

I'm really not up to explaining the whole thing one more time, but trust me, they torpedoed him.

[okieinpain]

15. yes they did. I wonder what we could do to force them to put him in

the dnc chair.

[Orangepeel]

17. if Dean couldn't win the primary, he wouldn't be able to win the general

I was a strong Dean supporter, meetup leader, the works. But, in retrospect, I don't believe he would have won either.

We can list a variety of reasons why he lost. Some might be fair, some unfair. But, he did lose. Media manipulation, an inferior ability to play the game, whatever. Those same problems would have come up again. If he couldn't beat Kerry, he wouldn't have been able to beat bush.

[Julien Sorel]

18. But there wouldn't have been a vast, anti-Dean conspiracy

in the general election, so he would have won in a landslide.

[Orangepeel]

22. hmmm.... is that sarcasm?

it is so hard to tell, nowadays.

In case not, I'll rephrase. Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that Dean was subjected to every nasty, dirty, unfair trick that the other Democrats could come up with. Do you believe that they, even as a group, could come up with nastier, dirtier, less fair tricks than bush? I don't.

If he was done in by the media in the primary, he would have been done in by the media in the general. If he was subject to unfair attacks in the primary, he would have been subject to unfair attacks in the general. If he lost the primary, he would have lost the general.

[Julien Sorel]

25. Nonsense.

If America, not just two small, white states (hey, they're just like Vermont. Imagine that), had been given the opportunity to see the wonder that is Dean, they would have thrown off the shackles of media manipulation and followed Dean into the Promised Land of enlightenment.

Sigh. If only Iowans and New Hampshirites had sense...

[Rumdummy]

26. I disagree with the Iowa/NH bashing

After all, even after those two primaries- Dean was still campaigning.
So was Clark.
So was Edwards.
So was Kucinich.

Iowa/NH comprised less than 1/20 of the delegates needed to win. The issue becomes- Why did the primary voters in every state after the first two believe in the 'electability' meme pumped by the MSM?

[madfloridian]

28. No, Dean did not campaign much after NH.

Sorry, but the party did its job very well. Just as it was intended.

I can show you the primary schedule, and I can tell you that 37 states had primaries AFTER Dean dropped out altogether....including the FL, CA, and NY...states in which he was leader or near leader, and states with large populations.

I have more if you want it...Abortions? Yeh, they did that do...said he and Judy performed abortions.

One Democratic campaign paid for the confederate flag demonstrations at Dean rallies.

Oh, yeh, they did their job well.

[newyawker99]

37. Hi Rumdummy!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[eataTREE]

19. Attention, K-Mart shoppers: Blue-light special on tinfoil hats in aisle 5!

Now I've heard everything.

First it was that Kerry couldn't have possibly lost the election, it was a Vast Right-Wing Conspiracy that stole it for Bush.

But no, their plan was much more devious! The Vast Right-Wing Conspiracy has been running Kerry as a sleeper agent for the past 35 years, all so they could steal the primary from the noble Howard Dean!

Sometimes I think that it's not just the Bushies who aren't in the reality-based community.

Kerry lost the election because... more people voted for Bush.
Dean lost the primary because... more people voted for Kerry.

[madfloridian]

29. You need to do some research.

I am very reality based. The reality is that our Democrats were bought out by corporations, and Dean's campaign funding by grassroots was not to be tolerated.

[KurtNYC]

27. And Rove said (Dean) might be the Democratic Reagan

he meant that in a good way. From one year ago (11/13/2003):

How do I know? Because if they really thought Dean would be easy for Bush to beat, they'd build him up to make sure he'd win the Democratic nomination. They were doing that last summer, but no longer. They now fear Governor Dean most of all. That explains why Republicans bash Dean constantly. On right-wing hate radio and on the talking head shows. On the editorial pages and in the "news" sections. As these tactics fail, Republican fear grows.

http://www.australianpolitics.com/news/2003/11/03-11-13b.shtml

[Sugarcoated]

30. Hey, this is what stood out for me

Didn't a pretty well known former Nixon campaign guy, forget his name, back Al Sharpton? Now, why would they be doing that? I seem to remember Sharpton's accusations of Dean not hiring any African American's in his cabinet seemed to hurt him, the MSM of course jumped on and repeated this with glee. But it looks to me like the Repub's were way ahead of us and were pretty effective in contributing to the taking down of Howard Dean.

[zulchzulu]

33. Divide and Conquer! Divide and Conquer! Divide and Conquer!

Yeah...you was played. Git 'im! Dean wuz gwoin' ta win and them po-litical hacks made people vote against Dean! Yeah!

[madfloridian]

34. This statement is by someone active in Iowa politics: Not good.

SNIP..." IDP (Iowa Dem Party) specifically instructed state and local Iowa candidates to minimize any ties to Dean. Dean was told by IDP he was not welcome to campaign in Iowa. IDP instructed candidates to take anti-gay positions. IDP recruited pro-life candidates and it was those candidates they actively supported and gave money. Vilsack is clearly of the wing of the party that will move it to the right and completely dis-enfranchise progressives...."

[Larkspur]

35. That explains why anti-Dean Party hacks took over most of the Caucuses

I will never vote for a DLC clone again. Kerry was the last.

[madfloridian]

36. And the saddest part was many of the IA party liked Dean.

They were told he would not be electable because he signed the civil unions bill in VT. Guess who told the IA leaders that. H,mmmmm?