Lost another one to BushCo -- a "soured friendship" story

[Atman]

I attended a dinner last night with a group of my very closest friends, eight plus me. I've written about one of these guys before; he traveled to PA with my wife and I last September, and during the trip politics came up. He assured me he was disgusted with Bush and considered himself a libertarian, and would not be voting for anyone in this election. For some reason, though, probably out of the need to gloat about his "victory," he mentioned that he voted for Bush. His wife, too. They treated it almost as a joke..."Yeah baby! Bush all the way!" Made comments about his big tax cut (which they probably did receive, as they are quite well-off).

The group at the dinner table was first in stunned silence, then the "WHAT!?" stuff started, and the shit started flying, although nothing too, too intense. I was seated next to a friend who has to little kids, he's almost 15 years younger than I am. He was getting loud, getting really, really pissed. I found myself -- the once this group considers the radical seditionist among us -- trying to calm him down, doing the "come on guys, we're here to celebrate (our friend's) new job, not discuss politics!" Everyone kind of split up into smaller conversations for a while, while the guy sitting next to me went on and on and told me all sorts of the stuff we discuss here daily.

It really hurt me to know my other friend lies about his intended vote, especially after now hearing him gloat about it because he was getting big tax cuts. Fuck that...he knows I have two teenage boys, 19 and 17, and that they are Bush cannon fodder. Yet he voted for his tax cuts. I am really, really bummed and seriously considering how to proceed. I cannot feel good about spending more time with them right now.

What gave me a cold comfort, or something, I don't know what you'd call it, is that after dinner as we stood around doing the chat thing, he and his wife were kind of off by themselves. This is highly unusual, they're a fun couple and have always been a welcome part of this close circle of friends. But there they were, off by themselves. As I walked into the kitchen I passed them and overheard his wife saying to him, "Man, I don't believe this! It's like were outcast for voting Bush or something."

Yeah. I think so. Unfortunately, it is probably the only impact their stupid decision will have on them. They have no kids, got a huge tax break -- everyone else at that table, everyone, will feel a direct impact on their lives because of Bush. These two? Hell, if they're relegated to the corner at cocktail parties, that is probably the worst repurcussion they'll face. I hope it helps illustrate to them what a foolish thing they did.

But something tells me it won't. You know what I mean?

[BlueManDude]

1. The biggest lie of the 2000 campaign....

"I'm a uniter not a divider." Sad.

[yankeedem]

2. This is the only repurcussion that matters

If * supporters are treated like outcasts, maybe they will have a change of heart. Many things have changed for the better by treating the dissenters as pariahs- think of racism, and homophobia.

In polite circles, noone would THINK of mouthing anti-minority or anti-gay sentiments for fear of being marginalised as bigots. Of course, ever since Raygun the bigots have been getting bolder and bolder.

How many of us felt like outcasts because we didn't support * after 9/11? I did. I stuck to my guns, but most will not. A disturbing percentage of the population will vote based on what is "cool" and "acceptable".

[JusticeForAll]

29. Outcasts

Wow, it was so difficult being anti-* after 9/11. My family, solidly democratic, could not believe that I did not trust * during the nation's worst tragedy. After three years, and the rubble cleared, they finally see why it was unwise to support him.

[LiberalAndProud]

3. Those who voted against their conscience in favor of pocket money

are traitors to our country.

I can almost forgive voting out of ignorance (almost). But those informed people who voted for few extra bucks in the own pockets against better judgment are TRAITORS!

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

14. I can't even forgive doing it out of ignorance.

There is no excuse. None.

[seabeyond]

4. my friend up the street, kids in same classes

sent husband to take kids to the bday party yesterday. just dont want to be around her. a disgust sits between me and her. a week ago went to lunch together with another friend that voted kerry. she thank me profusely for convincing her to vote kerry, now she wouldnt have to feel the shame and guilt. as we left, i hug her goodbye. couldnt hug the other, my body wouldnt do it. was very uncomfortable

[lapfog_1]

5. I consider voting for Bush THIS time

to be a serious character flaw. 2000 can be excused because we
didn't KNOW (well, I knew, but a lot of people believed the hype
of compassionate conservative, a uniter not a divider). But this
time we all knew. Consider getting new friends.

[seabeyond]

6. i agree..... n/t

[dmac]

17. You can get new friends but

you can't get new family. I have friends on both sides, but definitely gravitate toward the ones I have anything in common with - and more and more, I find I have less and less in common with those on the other side.

But what do you do about family members? People you love with your heart and soul and have so much in common with that it is a huge puzzle as to how you can see things so differently politically? I spent the best part of the last 3 years sending articles, engaging in discussions with 2 of my favorite people in the whole world - both brothers - only to give up completely a couple of months before the election. I finally admitted the futility of continuing to argue - it was only damaging our relationship.

But when I woke up on Wednesday morning after the election my heart sunk because I realized whether we ever discuss politics or not, it will forever be a wedge between us - because they assisted in re-seating this (%#^%#) back in the WH. My mother says everyone is entitled to their own opinions and of course they are - and of course, since it is America, they are every bit as entitled to their views as I am to my own. The unfortunate truth is their views are forcing me to live within a society governed by their views and their views are foreign to me - and their government steps on my rights to live as I want to live - i.e., taking my country into a war that kills hundreds of thousands of innocents, no charity for the less fortunate, all under the guise of compassion and Christianity. If my guy had won their views would still be safe within the society they live. I am so sick and disheartened to have blood on my hands - for we all do as we are ultimately responsible for our Government's choices.

[searchingforlight]

23. I agree that this is the big dilemma.

My sister and I cannot talk about this and made an agreement not to but it is always between us. We skirt the issue uncomfortably at least three times a week. We are sisters but no longer touch on a soul level. It breaks my heart and hers but there is no room for compromise here and we both know it.

My friends who are on the dark side are no longer part of my life.

[Atman]

20. Sadly, I think that's where this is heading

I very ironic twist to this...this guy make a great deal of money, as I stated. My wife and I are among those of us who've seen our relative income decline as a result of Bush's economic policies. Before the politics came up, "Joe" and I talked about snowboarding and skiing. We went together several times last season, and he treated on quite a few via lift passes he gets from his company to use as gifts to his clients. He says he doesn't play that, he doesn't do the close-the-deal-on-the-golf course game, he doesn't try to win accounts by handing out favors. He'd keep the passes and use them himself. It actually made sense to me...my wife (APRN) is constatnly bombarded by pharmaceutical reps who've offered us their ski chalets, expensive dinners, etc. It is gross, so I understood and actually appreciated his position.

He mentioned the lift ticket passes again, and how he was waiting to start skiing, and he'd call me. I won't be able to take them, now. I can't take anything from him. And there is the bitter irony...I will be "losing out," if you will. This will "cost" me a bundle if I have to start paying full price (or even paying at all) for lift tickets. But that is a cost I'll bear, no problem. I have to. This guy will not be harmed at all...he'll get more money in his pocket. Yay for him. Ironically, I voted against my pocketbook, but walking the walk. I proved my point about principle, albeit, probably only to myself.

[searchingforlight]

24. I think the key to this is that you are finally seeing this friend (couple

in a clear light. You have said that they are the center of attention at get-togethers. You have said that he has used his passes, gratis, to spend time with you. You have said that they voted their self-interest.

I think all of these go together. When I read your description of your relationship, I see a couple/friend who likes to be the center of attention (self-interest) uses his freebies to buy your loyalty (self-interest) and votes to his benefit (self-interest) He and his wife have not changed. You have been given sharper vision. You will be better off without them.

[Atman]

30. Okay, this is freakin' me out, man!

:hippie:

I'm reading your post and thinking, shit, this guy is right. An awakening that's of course kind of sickending, too. So...okay, you ready?


Okay, so like, I swear :LOL:...last night I stepped into the next room with one of the other guests for a few minutes. The tv room. Our hosts are moving soon, and trying to lease the house, so it's all cleaned up an ready to show. It's and old bungalow/farmhouse thing, "lots of character" type place, not a new catalogue home. I'm just trying to set the scene...but then...maybe you already know this! :tinfoilhat: ...

...because the ONLY video sitting atop the tv, the only video not neatly in its place in the cabinet, was a copy of "Brigadoon!"

WTF!

<Cue twilight zone theme.>

[searchingforlight]

35. That IS freaky!!

Honest. I wasn't there but I do believe in serendipity

[RevCheesehead]

40. I have an ethical problem with someone who steals from their company

Those lift passes were given out by his company to give to clients. He's decided that he's above that, that he doesn't close the deal that way. He falsely claims the moral high-ground, but in reality, he is stealing from the organization he works for. I can't help but wonder what his bosses would think if they found out he was keeping it all for himself.

[whodiedandmadeUSgod]

7. I think you should have pointed out to them that they

voted to support the draft. I've noticed that people who vote Bush* are unable to see beyond themselves and only come around when they are personally affected. For instance it takes them to have a child with type I diabetes to discover that they should support stem cell research.

I went out with a group of friends the other evening. A friend next to me whom I'd considered quite open minded in the past said to me,"Do you think our waiter is a Fag?" I responded,"I think he is probably homosexual but that word is not in my vocabulary!"

[1monster]

13. My answer to a question like that is ALWAYS "I don't know and WHY

THE HELL should I care?!!!?"

[classof56]

8. Yeah, I know what you mean...

I'm dealing with a family situation right now, the gist of which is that my daughter does not want to attend Thanksgiving dinner if her Bush-loving half-brother is there. I am trying to make it clear to everyone that politics will NOT be a topic of discussion at this brief, once-a-year event and can't we all just get along? The thing is, my step-son is very poor and Bush's policies will have zero benefit for him, as far as I can see, and it won't be long until he faces sending his 14-year-old son off to war. I frankly don't get it, but will suck it up, be nice and determine not to "go there" (the Bush "victory") during our time together. Not sure if my rather volatile and angry daughter will be able to control herself if her brother mentions it. Will try to set the ground rules ahead of time. I'm also having a problem with a good and long-time friend in another state who informed me he voted for Bush because "that's where the money is and he wants to jump on the money train". Yeah, right. I hope it works for him--and soon, because from what I'm hearing, by the end of next year our economy is pretty much going to be a shambles. Unless you're very, very, very rich, of course. Maybe that's where your friend is, and I guess if money's the bottom line...well, I don't really get that, either, but I suspect a lot of friendships and family relationships stand in danger of being broken because of our "uniter not divider" so-called president.

[dmac]

22. This is so similar to the reality

that I am living right now, only I guess I am your daughter. My mother shares my views, as does my sister, but my brothers (how odd to be gender divided like this?) are avid Bush supporters - on because he is an evangelical Christian and the other - I still have not figured out why, but I think it has something to do with his belief in that we should use our military superiority to make the world a better place, however twisted that may seem to some (and to me of course).

Anyway, my problem is MINE is the house of holiday celebrations - and with everyone knowing how I feel and how strongly I feel it I am sure that no one will try to lead us down a political path. But it is almost like I cannot even stand to face them. Can I keep my mouth shut? I do not want to acknowledge his victory (because I do not believe it was an honest one) - and if either of my brothers or their wives dare to even say sorry about how it turned out or anything I am afraid I will launch into a tirade.

Therefore I have pretended holidays weren't happening this year and awoke to the shock last Thursday that Thanksgiving is 2 weeks away and I cannot continue to run from it. What do I do? I honestly feel I cannot face this? And to make matters worse one brother's first and only, long awaited child is also due in the next two weeks and I am so happy for them and so excited for him - but once again, this whole BS is tainting everything! Why can I not stop being so selfish?

[classof56]

39. Yes, you are like my daughter, and I can really relate.

Guess the years have mellowed me somewhat and I strive hard for "domestic tranquility", plus have been the "mediator" in many a family dispute through the years. My daughter, however, just does not hold back expressing her opinions (a lot like her father), as does her half-brother (a lot like his father--who happens to be her father, too), so there we go with the head-butting scenario. In this instance, the father in question agrees with me and both our daughters, while the son/brother is the Bush fan. I'm just so worn out with this whole situation I can hardly say anything that makes sense--like you said, this whole BS is tainting everything. You hang in there--you are not being selfish, but like so many of us you're having a very hard time dealing with what's been foisted upon us by people who don't yet fully understand what they have wrought. Try to enjoy your new niece or nephew. He/she will need you in the future more than you can imagine!

Take care!

[dmac]

42. Thank you for your post

and the encouragement. You are right about my new niece or nephew of course, and I will definitely be there to help where ever I am needed in that regard. But I had really thought the prospect of a new life would have helped my brother a bit to absorb some of what I have tried to send him or tell him - about leaving a decent, sustaining environment for this baby he has wanted for so long. I will never understand the divide - but it runs deep and wide. It is like we are from different worlds even though we are more alike than any two people I know in every other respect.

I hope your family manages to have a happy and peaceful Thanksgiving and once again, thanks for your reply.

[leesa]

27. No offense, but I think this is part of the problem. We refuse to discuss

what is important in this country. It's IMPOLITE to discuss politics.
This is what determines our future for God's sake!
I have a sister-in-law who has always played this game...no politics...no religion...no sports, etc... Her son is 16 years old. Her husband is a raving lunatic Fundie RWinger and they both go to the same "church of the GOP". Had she violated her rule a few times, perhaps her son would not be facing the draft in 2 years.

[Vickers]

9. No kids, huh? Wonder if she's ever had an abortion...

:shrug:

[merbex]

10. Relegated to a corner -

It wasn't someone I know - I was in line buying a book a couple of days after the election. The guy paying saw a display of F9/11

Very loudly he cracked "Better discount these or better yet THROW THEM OUT"

He looked at theclerk - no reaction - he turned around and looked at another woman and myself and we glared at him. You could see the shocked look on his face. He got very read(embarrassed it looked to me) and he quickly left.

I made a vow then to make any B* ite I find VERY UNCOMFORTABLE

[Dark]

11. I have conservative friends,

and I just try not to talk politics around them. Most of them aren't rabidly aggressive towards liberals. You just have to avoid talking about politics. But I've been in your situation before. Just remind them of the rising costs of gas, food, healthcare, and other necessities. Then there tax cut is 'poof' gone. End of discussion, move on to something else.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

12. I know it sounds cold

but they made their choice. They need to lie in that bed.

Personally, I couldn't respect them enough to still maintain a friendship with them.

Ditto for my own * voting FORMER friends.

They have gone so far off my values map, I can't find them anymore.

And that blood dripping off their hands is just gross.

[Wright Patman]

15. Six-figures and greater

income people were the most enthusiastic, highest-percentage-turning out and most nearly unanimous group voting for the Chimp, not "moral values" people.

If that guy was a churchgoer of the Southern Baptist variety, he would now declare himself to be "persecuted" for his belief in "Christian" tax cuts.

No joke. Our youth pastor preached a sermon in April 2003, when the Chimperor was at his highest approval rating, that dear leader was being "persecuted" (I took him to mean anyone who disagreed with the Iraq war was ipso facto engaged in persecuting the Chimperor) for his "Christian" belief that we should bring "freedom" to the Iraqis.

When are the lions going to be thrown to the Christians?

[shesemsmom]

16. It hurts

I know when you have so much to loss that people you consider your friends would do you that way, and then BRAG about it. I had some what the same experience with a woman that I thought I knew who told me she voted for Bush,because she was against Abortion. I said crips, what about our living breathing kids Bush is killing in Iraq. Is that okay? And those living in Iraq that we are killing massive numbers? Is that okay too. She had no answer.It hurts to think that people can be so selfish and ignorant. :grr:

[Stevious]

18. Family & Friends

Leading up to the election, I thought it was fairly clear how Bush's policies were directed at taking away gay rights, etc... And it's not like I expected to change the minds or votes of family and friends, but I didn't expect the kind of gloating responses from friends and family after Bush won. I scanned in a letter with a picture and posted it on my blog, that my mom sent, which was pretty hurtful. And then, just this weekend, just got into a somewhat heated discussion with an old (now ex-)friend of mine on my blog about Bush's stance on gay marriage.

As we approach the holidays, I can't even fathom spending any time with my family, either at my home, or theirs. Fortunately, my partner's family is far more tolerant.

:argh:

[GOPFighter]

19. One of the biggest changes in America in my lifetime

Money. A growing segment of our population is obsessed with it. Not the poor and working class people, their obsession with money is mostly how to pay the bills and keep their head above water. It's the wealthy and near-wealthy and young college age kids who are born to privilege - acquiring wealth is not only an obsession, it is their measure of worth. They are haughty and contemptuous of those of us who feel we are our brother's keeper and that our government should help poor and working class Americans get a foothold in the American Dream.

This is the one thing that seems to distinguish Americans from Europeans and Canadians. (The other is our embrace of pseudo-Christianity, but that's another story, and easier to understand)

[Doctor_J]

28. and along with that

all countries have poor people (different economic strata), but the US is the only place where the people with the most are the ones who are always complaining about the way thigns are.

[RevCheesehead]

41. I think the irony is that pseudo-Christianity is embracing wealth.

I still don't understand how people can be obsessed with material wealth and still claim to know and understand the Gospel of Jesus Christ. They apparently don't read his words, because Jesus spends more time talking about money and economic justice than any other subject (except the Kingdom of God, of course). And Jesus never once mentions homosexuality. He spent time hanging out with tax collectors, prostitutes and sinners. He abhorred the religious mainstream of his day, calling them "a brood of vipers."

I begin to think that the monastics were right when they called for a lifestyle of poverty, chastity, and obedience. When you live in THAT reality, you begin to see the rest of the world in a whole new way. (and I think I know whereof I speak!)

[indigobusiness]

21. It's tough...Like living on the Mason-Dixon line.

Brother against brother stories, everywhere you turn.

The fabric is ripping.

----

There's a terrible sense of dread filtering across America at the moment and it's not simply because of the continuing fear of terrorism and the fact that the nation is at war. It's more frightening than that. It grows out of the suspicion that we all may be passengers in a vehicle that has made a radically wrong turn and is barreling along a dark road, with its headlights off and with someone behind the wheel who may not know how to drive.

BOB HERBERT

====

Anybody have the Gandhi quote about opposing evil?

[nine23]

25. Sad. I just don't get it.

Judging by the age of your kids, I can assume we're all about the same age (late thirties/forties). Haven't these folks (your two lost souls/friends at the party) learned, or more importantly, "retained" anything?

Our age group "missed", but only only by a hair, being seriously involved in the Vietnam conflict (although I'm sure you had older brothers or cousins who were. I'm Canadian, I had American draft dodgers as HIGH SCHOOL TEACHERS, a PRIVILEGE I'll take with me to my grave.). Didn't they LEARN anything from that era?

I was in first year university when Reagan got elected. By that time, we were no longer scared of the "big, bad Soviet Union", didn't buy it for a moment. If anything "good" came out of that era, it was that we got to see ReRon burn out on tired old rhetoric, while Gorbie acted like a REAL MAN on the world stage, as the wall came down. Didn't your friends learn anything?

I'm a child of the 70's; I drank this stuff in.

Not to gloat, but I've "done OK" financially myself (self employed in media; made a few good real estate moves over the years, etc.) If I lived in the States, I'd qualify for tax cuts (I worked it out), BUT I DON'T VOTE WITH MY WALLET. It just doesn't compute. I have this thing called a SOUL...it would take a fucking pounding.

I could go on and on about this...folks our age, how they're conducting themselves, the way they're living their lives, given our age group's "timeline"...

But that's a thread of it's own.

My advice? Fuck 'em. It's what I am; it's what I've been taught.

[Doctor_J]

26. that's why were are trying to move

I am in IL, but by socio-economic standing (upper-middle) has put me in a situation where most of my family and friends are wingers. the thought of spending holiays with these hypocritical slobs has me severly depressed.

So we are actively pursuing a move to Canada, or at least CA, where we can live amongst some more like-minded (sane) people who is doesn't make me sick to be around. Life's too sort.

[littleleaguemom]

34. Be careful where you look to move in CA

Outside of a few counties, Bush won, in some counties by 20%.

[KayLaw]

31. To be fair

Bush did say that there will be no draft and a vote for him would be the surest way to avoid a draft. We need to remember this and hold him to it.

One poster said that we should discuss politics more often and I don't see a problem with that. The real problem I see here is that the couple's behavior was inexcusable. Had you and they gone to different colleges and their team won, their behavior would have been would have been somewhat socially acceptable, but still obnoxious.

[Jade Fox]

32. These people have got to start experiencing the results of their actions..

Having spent quite a bit of time in my life around people with lots of money,
I can tell you that a constant in their lives is not having to deal with the
negative consequences of their actions. They make a mess, someone else
cleans it up. Sounds simple, but imagine it being that way your whole life.

People like this might respond most to the info that, thanks to Bush's deficite
spending, the value of the US dollar is declining rapidly world wide.

[graywarrior]

33. Man, your story hit a nerve with me

My sister has dual citizenship in the US and Canada. After living in Canada for 27 years, she gets herself an absentee ballot from Mass and votes for Bush.

That was the straw that broke the camels back for me. I have been listening to her bash gays, the Pope, liberals ever since she moved to Canada. In fact, her community banded together in the 80's and had a teacher suffering from HIV fired from a school.

I have tried very hard because she is my sister to stay out of political discussion. But she is a born-again Baptist and nearly everything she believes in goes against my grain. We now have nothing in common except our dysfunctional family past, and that, it seems, is my fault because I remain a pagan.

If I cannot connect with the soul of another on basic humanitarian concepts, I cannot be friends. My best friend in the world is an extremely wealthy author who has no money problems at all. She voted for Kerry. Why? He has a soul and the same values as she has.

I started a post yesterday about republicans being Morlocks and Dems being Eloi. I'm really beginning to believe that. I cannot associate with Bush supporters. Not now.

[lildreamer316]

44. Agreeing, and having a hard time..

..dealing with the fact that I invited a friend of 10 years and her 2 year old daughter to stay with me (abusive boyfriend situation). She is very repuke and has an Army (Ft. Bragg) new boyfriend who has served in Iraq who also voted Bush. I haven't gotten into any kind of discussion with her/them on the subject, but I'm so very very upset at the way everything is falling apart and the inherent danger to us all, that I'm having a hard time tolerating the fact that she is under the same roof. I can't believe she would not see how this is going to affect her daughter's life...if not be the end of it someday.(ref. to 60 min. interview about Osama w/nukes). I have an 11-month old myself. I'm ashamed to say that I have gotten to the point where I see every hurt and dead child as my own...I cannot bear to watch the news (or some CSI episodes;) ) or read some posts here, because of the pictures of the children. It haunts me so that I cannot sleep. As one of the other thread posters said, I sometimes wish for the bliss of ignorance. Back to the roomie; she seems to get off on the whole macho thing (hence the abusive boyfriend--she's a drama queen), and that seems to be the main reason for supporting Bush. I do want to confront her, but not without being armed to the teeth (pardon the expression!) with references and back-up info. I did get into a very brief discussion with her boyfriend and my hubby awhile back, where he said the media had a liberal bias. I couldn't do anything but laugh. I tried to correct him, but did not have the pertinent info at hand.
Well anyway, thanks for letting me rant. I just wanted to agree with greywarrior that if I cannot make a soul connection with someone, then they do not need to be in my life. Life is (going to be) too short for me to put up with less than authentic ppl. I will let her stay as long as I can, because she needs, it but I feel my friendship with her is probably over. That's not easy. Oh well;)

[zulchzulu]

36. Many voted for Bush due to the Selfish Vote

They think he sucks, but just love the tax cuts. It is truly pathetic.

Hopefully, they will see that getting a tax cut is not the best thing to have. If they have a conscience...

[Tace]

37. I've Started Laughing Uncontrollably To The Point Of Tears...

when Bushies show their colors in polite company, as if they are simply out of their minds. "Oh, I needed that. Tell me another one!" I'll say.

It seems to hurt their feelings. Awww. I'm so mean.

[NashVegas]

38. Don't Toss Them For Voting Bush

Toss them for gloating.

I have a couple of acquaintances/friends who voted Bush, and we've agreed to disagree.

Then there are the ones I'll have nothing to do with: those who wish to extend the Bush v Kerry victory into the platform of our acquaintance. "I won, you lost," and relish this personal competition.

Fuck 'em.

[AspenRose]

43. Gloating

RW radio is helping to promote this....

I mentioned this yesterday: I was listening to a college football game on the radio. This station also, unfortunately, broadcasts Rush and Sean. Apparently, according to one of the promos during a time out, Sean is coming to the area for a "gloating victory" tour or some such nonsense.

'GLOATING' was actually part of the title of his promotional tour.

I expect to see a lot more of this to counteract the Bush voters who MIGHT have had two brain cells to rub together, who now regret their vote. The encouragement to gloat is designed, no doubt, to counteract the cognitive dissonance and buyer's remorse these people might be experiencing.