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mrgorth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-04 11:15 AM
Original message
Fucking A.N.S.W.E.R.
Since the "election" I have been feeling the need to get more radical. As such, I was looking forward to a march on DC and some people had suggested the anniversary of *'s innaugeration. Now, I'm on ANSWER's mailing list, so yesterday I get a steaming pile of ANSWER shit in my inbox. It's not enough for these people to say "let's march on Washington to show our rejection of this administrations agenda". No, after working against * for 2 years I have to read crap about how the dems and the pugs are the same party blah, blah, blah. Sorry, not this year. I swear, the anti-war movement could attract people much easier if these jack asses weren't running it. I'll probably still do the march but if 1 mother fucker comes up to me with a "free Mumia" shirt on I'm gonna drop his punk ass.
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-04 11:17 AM
Response to Original message
1. It's not funny....
and it is... :)
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auburngrad82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-04 11:22 AM
Response to Original message
2. I'm with you
I'm so pissed that I feel that my blood is boiling inside. I'm all for doing "whatever it takes" to bring these assholes down. My aim over the next couple years is class warfare. I'm going to try my best to wake people up to the fact that the GOP is a bunch of fat white rich guys and they don't give a damn about anyone else. The poor and minority people of our country need to be made aware of just what is at stake. The rich get richer and the poor get poorer. ANd then they get drafted. Or end up paying the bulk of taxes because of a national sales tax. Or end up dying earlier than they should because they can't afford medicine because the GOP sold the government to the drug companies.
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NoPasaran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-04 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #2
35. What's your problem with fat white people?
Some of us are Democrats, okay?
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auburngrad82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-04 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #35
44. lol, me included
Sorry about that. Fat white robber barons, is that better?
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auburngrad82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-04 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #35
45. How 'bout rich white "fatcats"?
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Carl Brennan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-04 08:45 PM
Response to Reply #45
65. My cat isn't white, but he is a bit overweight. Your attitude
could be offensive. }(
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Atlant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-04 11:28 AM
Response to Original message
3. I'm still waiting for *ANY ONE OF YOU* to organize...
I'm still waiting for *ANY ONE OF YOU* to organize a demo that's as
successful as any of the ANSWER demos have been.

Action would speak far louder than your typing.

Atlant
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goclark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-04 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. Did Answer organize the march for the Recon Convention?


If so, I'm with them!

They did not riot, they were in huge numbers and they were brave IMO.
They were from all points of view and that is America, the real America.

If the Repubs marched it would be so boring. We would have the KKK with their crosses and without their sheets.

I would proudly walk for injustice to gays and Black Men who have been put in jail for trumped up charges and not allowed to vote when they get out of jail. I would march right beside them.

Their only problem was that the Media, other than CSPAN, refused to film them.

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Atlant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-04 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #5
14. I believe that was another ANSWER/UfPJ joint production. (NT)
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Teaser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-04 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #3
15. "successful?"
Yeah...stopped that war real good.
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Atlant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-04 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #15
19. It got hundreds of thousands of progressives together in one place.
Have you done better?

Atlant
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Teaser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-04 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #19
24. I did just as good as A.N.S.W.E.R. all on my on.
My attempt to stop the war was as effective as theirs.

Who the fuck cares if they got a buncha people marching together.
They did exactly nothing about stopping the war. They did exactly nothing about influencing public opinion towards stopping the war.

When will progressives learn that protests mean shit if they don't chagne anything.
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Atlant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-04 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. Funny, you vote for Democrats under the same circumstances...
> When will progressives learn that protests mean shit if they don't chagne anything.

Funny, you vote for Democrats under the same circumstances...

Atlant
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Teaser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-04 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #27
37. Nonsense.
Edited on Mon Nov-08-04 01:58 PM by Teaser
Democrats helped fix the pothole outside my house. They got my streets plowed last winter. They helped me get a lot of nice grants during my graduate career.

A.N.S.W.E.R.

Let's see...haven't stopped a war.
haven't ended racism.

What else are they supposed to do again?

Dude, if you can't rate, don't play the game. I've had your number every post of this debate. Bring your A game next time.
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Atlant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-04 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #37
42. Democrats....
Democrats...

...didn't stop the war either.
...didn't save welfare for everyone who needed it.
...didn't get you univeral healthcare.
...didn't leave no children behind.
...didn't stop Reich-wing judges from ascending to the bench.
...didn't pass the ERA.
...didn't stop the Partial-Birth Abortion Act.
...didn't stop the USA-PATRIOT act.

I'm glad they fixed your pothole, but there are more-important
issues in the world where they have done far worse than nothing
at all.

Atlant
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Moonbeam_Starlight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-04 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #24
36. Blame for that rests on bush and the neocon's shoulders
not on ANSWER. What did you want them to do beyond what they did?

He called us a focus group and said he doesn't listen to focus groups.

bush doesn't give a flying SHIT. Ten MILLION of us could sit our asses right in front of the White House and he'd just have the National Guard (no wait, they aren't here), he'd have the whoever he could get to come out there and just use high pressure hoses on us.

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norml Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-04 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #3
28. Actually some of the typing here has spoken very loudly.
To win friends and influence people there are many ways. While I think it's best to use all of them,not everyone can do them all at once. It's up to each to determine where their efforts might have the most effect.
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-04 11:33 AM
Response to Original message
4. UFPJ is much more to my liking..
United For Peace & Justice:
www.unitedforpeace.org
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mrgorth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-04 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. I thought they were almost the same group
aren't they at least affiliated?
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-04 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #6
11. they did work together a few times
but they are distinctly different. In general they haven't 'gotten along' all that well.
UFPJ is far less dogmatic and hierarchical than ANSWER.

UFPJ was the main organizer of the recent GOP protests in NYC.
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UdoKier Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-04 11:40 AM
Response to Original message
7. Sometimes i wish...
They sold T-Shirts with an arrow on it that say "I'm against the war, but I'm not with these nutjobs.

First anti-war protest I went to was a perfect example. The promoters "United for Peace and Justice" billed it as an anti-war event in their literature, so when several hundred of us showed up at the DESERTED LOT IN THE GHETTO WHERE NO TRAFFIC WOULD EVEN SEE US, we were pretty dismayed that it was mostly an anti-Israel hate rally. Like I want to take sides on THAT mess. Me and a Jewish guy I went with just ignored it and protested a little while away from the "Remember Jenin" crowd, but finally left since there was little traffic, and because we had come to protest the IRAQ war.

I don't imagine that ANSWER are as bad as that, but they don't exactly package their message for a broad audience.

But now that Kerry has conceded without a peep about touchscreen machines, one wonders if the parties are one and the same.
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jcappy Donating Member (101 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-04 11:41 AM
Response to Original message
8. even if Mumia were guilty
he would, at best, have been charged with manslaughter (given the situation of the killing) and been out of prison a long time ago. so, why does he tick you off--or is it the way some people on the left embrace him and his case??

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mrgorth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-04 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. Here's the deal
I've scraped the surface on both sides of the case. Maybe he's innocent, but I haven't seen any solid proof of that. I'm Irish Catholic and part of a group that memorializes Danny Faulkner. Bottom line, I'm pro-death penalty but if Mumia is innocent I'm all for freeing him. My problem is that you get involved to, say, protest the Iraq war or Bush's reelection, and the next thing you know all these people with pet causes hijack it. Frankly, if I go to protest something I don't need "free Mumia" people trying to make me part of their thing. Just protest the damned war. Make your Mumia thing a whole different event. Follow me?
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Capn Sunshine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-04 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. Guilty or not , the man is a sage
try listening to what he has to say. It's topical and genuine.

http://www.prisonradio.org
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goclark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-04 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. Thanks for the link , so why wouldn't I fight

for his views to be heard?

Bush is fighting for the views of Rumsfeld and Thomas and and and all the other killers voices to be heard!

He is fighting for the voices of bigots to be heard.

This link was helpful of my understanding of the ones that Bush wishes to surpress.


BUSH should be in leg irons! He has KILLED thousands of people.
He is the terrorist!

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UdoKier Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-04 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #16
32. Yes.
The whole lot of them should be.
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DoNotRefill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-04 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #12
40. so sages shouldn't be punished for murder?
eom
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donheld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-04 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #40
50. Sages shouldn't be punished for murder if they didn't do it.
:shrug:
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DoNotRefill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-04 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #50
52. the evidence against him is fairly damning....
namely that he a) had a gun at the scene, and b) that it had been fired until it was empty.
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donheld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-04 07:58 PM
Response to Reply #52
55. I didn't say he did or didn't
only that IF he didn't he shouldn't be punished.
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Goldmund Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-04 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #10
41. Amen.
I had the same thoughts when I first started protesting Bush's agenda in late 2001. In those days, the protests hadn't turned very massive yet, and ANSWER people were a good chunk of the protest crowd -- and you could hardly tell what the protest was about.
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UdoKier Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-04 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #8
31. Really?
After shooting a cop in the back, then twice between the eyes at almost point-blank range?

How is that manslaughter, and since when have juries been lenient with cop-killers?

Just because a guy speaks eloquently from prison about causes we happen to like does not make him innocent, and there are certainly much more compelling cases of people of color being railroaded than his. A certain segment of the left simply idolizes his intellect to the point that they are willing to ignore the facts of the case - and ignore less glamorous/famous guys on death row.
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DrWeird Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-04 07:05 PM
Response to Reply #31
51. Well, the cop was beating his brother.
Sounds like you're ignoring that fact.
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UdoKier Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-04 04:32 AM
Response to Reply #51
56. No. I see that as no excuse for murder.
Who shoots somebody in the back, especially a cop, because they are beating on somebody?
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DrWeird Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-04 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #56
57. Are you telling me...
that if you saw somebody with a gun raping your daughter you wouldn't shoot first?
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UdoKier Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-04 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #57
58. Seeing one's daughter being raped is different than a cop roughing up
your brother, but no, either way, I doubt my FIRST response would be to kill the guy. Clock him with a baseball bat, yes. A bullet in the back and two between the eyes - no. Sorry.

Whether Mumia is guilty of first degree murder, I don't know, I wasn't on the jury. But he is not the least bit "innocent", and certainly is no political prisoner.
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DrWeird Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-04 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #58
60. Not really.
A cop doesn't have any more right to beat up my brother than a prowler does to rape my daughter. Now are you telling me that if you found a prowler with a gun in his hand raping your daughter that you would put down your gun, go find a baseball bat, and then go hit the guy who has a gun with a baseball bat? I call bullshit.

If Mumia was charged and convicted and sentence for first degree murder when it wasn't first degree murder because he was a Black Panther than he sure as hell is a political prisoner.
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ProudToBeBlueInRhody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-04 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #8
59. The problem with Mumia.....
...is he's a cause celeb who's monopolized a bunch of time and money under circumstances of his case that are at best, questionable. Meanwhile, there's some kid in Texas or Florida, land of the Bushies, who's probably TOTALLY innocent, but because of some sleeping/dumbass uncaring lawyer is going to get sent to the gallows without having Ed Asner or Mike Farrell say a peep about him to "60 Minutes or "20/20".
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LibInternationalist Donating Member (861 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-04 11:47 AM
Response to Original message
9. no kidding
I went to the march in Washington before the Iraq war, and those jokers were so all over the map I was embarassed -- people didn't come there to hear about Mumia or Israel or whatever the hell they were talking about -- there was NO unified message whatsoever
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Capn Sunshine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-04 11:57 AM
Response to Original message
13. 'Twas ever thus MRGorth
Evry anti-government movement will attract ALL poeple against the government for ANY reason. Just try to get along.

If the distractions of the jesters are just too much for you, try thinking of armless Ali or other innocent victims of our avarice and empire.

Remember what you're there for : it ain't your comfort at stake.
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goclark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-04 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #13
17. Well said Capn Sunshine nt
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zulchzulu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-04 12:30 PM
Response to Original message
18. ANSWER is an embarrassment to me
Edited on Mon Nov-08-04 12:32 PM by zulchzulu
I remember protesting the war back in 2001 and 2002 in SF and ANSWER would set up the event.

We were there to protest Bush's war, not some fundraiser for a socialist group or an anti-semetic hate group. If I go to DC this January, I ain't standing in their crowd. I always felt there were right-wing interlopers in the group trying to make the "Left" look bad.

When the ANSWER people decided to go smash windows of people's businesses in the name of "peace", I knew these little twits are just punks looking for an excuse to be a "anarchist".
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Atlant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-04 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. Perhaps you can find the DLC and stand with them.
They're probably helping guard the Free Republic porta-potties.

Atlant
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zulchzulu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-04 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. No, I ain't there either....
I'll stand by myself over standing with hooligans and sellouts.
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graywarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-04 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. Will you wear a hooligans t-shirt so I can redognize you?
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zulchzulu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-04 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. Nah... I'll have an AWOL Cowboy hoodie
I doubt it will be t-shirt weather in DC this January. :->
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-04 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #20
29. *lol*
------------------------------------------------------------
Help expose the election 2004 voter fraud today!
http://www.geocities.com/greenpartyvoter/electionreform.htm
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demokatgurrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-04 12:42 PM
Response to Original message
22. A march like the one in NY during the RNC would be beautiful-
peaceful and BIG.
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mrgorth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-04 01:00 PM
Response to Original message
26. Here's the e-mail I got BTW.
It is time to take a close look at what actually happened with the election of Bush and the defeat of Kerry. We should cut through the myths, clichés and banalities that are pumped out by the politicians and TV punditry - the establishment propaganda machine - and then too frequently echoed even by progressive people. It is also an important moment to make another commitment to organize and mobilize for the January 20 and March 19/20 mass actions against the criminal war being waged in Iraq. That war is about to escalate sharply as the Pentagon prepares a murderous reign of terror against the people of Fallujah and other Iraqi cities, and all people of conscience must take action.

It is more than ironic that Bush can openly prepare to make the streets and alleyways of Fallujah run red with blood so Iraq can have "democratic elections" in January.

More than 100,000 Iraqis have died since March 20, 2003, as a consequence of the U.S. invasion and occupation of their country. At least 10,000 U.S. soldiers have been killed or wounded according to the official figures. The death toll will grow higher on both sides as the nationalist insurgency of the Iraqi people deepens.

A Shared Vision for War and Conquest - Why the Truth Was Never Spoken

This is not just Bush's war. The Democrats, including Kerry, complain only that the criminal war has been badly managed. Kerry’s program was to bring in other imperialist countries, give them a share of the contracts (also known as the loot) and share the burden of aggression and occupation with others. There are millions of people including many "conservative" working people in swing states who are either opposed to, or apprehensive about, the war. Just as in the Vietnam War, millions of people can turn actively against the war - and can even become its most militant opponents - once they come to understand that they have been lied to by the government. Their children and spouses and neighbors are being sent to kill and be killed.

For people to learn the truth and accept the fact that the government that they pledged allegiance to is really a bunch of lying criminals takes a process. It requires people who know the truth to tell it and to speak plainly so that there is no misunderstanding. Kerry has always known that Iraq was not a "grave and imminent threat" to the people of the United States. He also knows that the war was a brazen act of lawless aggression and that every life lost in Iraq constitutes an act of homicide by the officials who planned and ordered the war, who should all be tried for war crimes.

Instead of stating clearly that Bush was lying, instead of telling the people that this was a war of aggression for the power and enrichment of Corporate America, Kerry voted for the war, agreed that he would do it all over again, and then asked people to vote for him because he had a "better plan" to win the war.

How could anyone think that such a confused and disingenuous position could appeal to traditionally Republican voters who are, in fact, deeply worried about the escalating war in Iraq? Kerry decided instead to wrap himself in the flag, tout his war record in Vietnam, dress up in fatigues and go duck hunting for a day. Only a rich liberal aristocrat and his Democratic Party operatives could believe that working people are going to find this convincing.

The Real Divide

Millions of hard-working people did everything they could to help Kerry get elected and to fight against racist disenfranchisement. They registered new voters, passed out literature, went door-to-door, acted as election monitors. Many were labor activists, others were from the antiwar movement, for many it was their first political experience.

Now, that Kerry has been defeated by the concerted effort of the right wing political machine, many in the Democratic Party leadership are promoting an absolutely false reason for his defeat. They are blaming gay marriage, and the so-called liberalism of the Party on "social and cultural issues." The Democratic Party leadership has, in fact, proven itself incapable of defeating the right-wing once again.

At the same time, the pundits are announcing a "divided America," arguing that the people of the U.S. are split into two sectors - the progressive, open-minded, peace-loving people, and the hateful, ignorant, warmongering bigots. But the post-electoral pundits' certification of this national divide misses the real divide, in the same way that the Democratic Party and many progressive organizations ignored the real divide in the United States during the electoral fight.

The vast majority of people in the United States, who voted either for Kerry or Bush, are working people, far from rich. This is the unexposed divide. But this divide did not determine the election because it could not, as neither candidate represented the interests of this majority. The Bush campaign fostered a divide of fear and bigotry. The only way to overcome this strategy would have been to openly counter it, to tell the truth about what the real divide-and-conquer program was, to openly support progressive issues and undemonize the demonized by raising the curtain on the real workings and intentions of the political and corporate establishment. This could not happen. Kerry, and many of the progressive organizations that supported him, accepted the belief that Kerry had to "speak to the right" on social issues and pander to this falsely created "moral" divide, with the quiet assurance that he would not be as regressive on social issues as Bush is sure to be. But once one accepts and panders to the Bush program and its fostered social divide, how can anyone be educated or be won from it?

The Unspoken Unity

Inside of the political and economic establishment, the ones who financed Bush's and Kerry's campaigns are not "sharply divided," rather they are united. Both candidates and both parties are advocates of "winning" in Iraq, unconditional support for Israel's war against the Palestinians, the ouster of Aristide in Haiti, the maintenance of a half-trillion dollar annual military budget, implementation of so-called free trade agreements and the outsourcing of jobs that are destroying the lives of working people everywhere, opposition to equal marriage rights. Kerry said repeatedly that he would simply manage Bush's program better. Both are almost identical in class representation. Not only did all four candidates for president and vice president possess vast personal wealth, but both candidacies were funded by the largest big banks and financial corporations, and Bush and Kerry shared four of the same ten largest donors. The Big Business imprint on the election was total and complete. Think about that unity. This is the unity of both Bush and Kerry and both of their parties, and the unity of all the corporations and banks and media corporations, including the newspapers, as well as the entire Military-Industrial Complex.

If they weren't completely beholden to the same big business interests as the Republicans, Kerry could have easily captured a section of the Republican working class base that voted against their own interests.

Many of those who voted for Bush were opposed to the Iraq war or had serious misgivings, and are also facing a concerted drive by Corporate America to slash health care benefits, pensions, cut wages and attack unions. Kerry could not make a strong, convincing appeal to these voters because both the Democrats and Republicans are imperialist parties and, as such, are united in wanting to conquer Iraq and are united in their view that working people in the U.S. should give back their hard won economic gains. Why would a voter leaning toward Bush on some other issue break away and vote for Kerry because of Iraq, when Kerry announced over and over again, "we are not talking about leaving we are talking about winning." Today Bush is set to unleash new attacks in Fallujah and other cities throughout Iraq that will kill thousands, mainly civilians. Kerry will support this offensive even though many more will die. Young soldiers are going to be used as faceless cogs in a racist war. The corporate powers and the politicians don’t care what happens to the Iraqi people or to the soldiers. Nor do they wish to see a united base of working people in the U.S. who join together for their real shared interests.

Why the Election Shows the Strength of Opposition to the War

Given their united political position on Iraq and the political, economic and media power that they wield it is a testament to the strength of the antiwar mood in the country that nearly half the population has broken from that position. Of the 54 million people who voted against Bush, opposition to the Iraq war was a central issue even though by voting for Kerry they were supporting a candidate who embraces the U.S. occupation and vows to "win not leave" Iraq.

The electoral outpouring against Bush does not indicate a continuing trend toward the political right. The opposite is true. One need only think back to the political climate on September 12, 2001, or even just eighteen months ago when Bush was sporting an approval rating of over 70% when he landed on the USS Abraham Lincoln Aircraft carrier dressed up as a soldier and proudly standing under the banner "Mission Accomplished." If the 2004 election had taken place 18 months ago, Bush would have won the largest landslide ever. With each passing day the war in Iraq becomes more inflamed, more violent and huge parts of the country are under the control of the Iraqi resistance. The Bush plan for Iraq and the Middle East is politically premised on imperial arrogance and driven by the desire for Empire. The growing hatred of the occupation force inside of Iraq will only increase and every day more people in this country, including many in uniform and their families, will join the ranks of the antiwar movement.

Voting for Kerry, for most progressive people, was a way of showing repudiation of the Bush administration and its warmongering, anti-people program, and that was an important message to send. But Kerry offers no hope for progressive change and his defeat does not mean that the true progressive movement in the United States is weak. It means simply that Kerry was not, and could never have been, its standard bearer nor able to win people to a movement for true historic social change he was not part of.

The Next Steps for People of Conscience

What is the perspective of the antiwar movement in the face of the growing escalation of war in Iraq and repression at home? Are we supposed to now just hang our heads, lament the victory of the right, wallow in despair, and proclaim "we are too weak," in the face of the triumph of Bush?

We do not have the luxury of taking a break for despondency and despair. The antiwar movement must merge the struggle for peace with a militant fightback movement at home to defend women's rights that are on the chopping block as Bush and company try to reverse Roe v. Wade. The antiwar movement must be part and parcel of the workers' movement to defend our unions and to launch a broader struggle against the merciless attacks on health care benefits and pensions. The antiwar movement must unite with the anti-racist movement in defense of affirmative action and civil rights and liberties. We know full well what the Bush administration has in mind regarding civil rights. The threatening opening salvo by the government’s IRS against the NAACP for the crime of criticizing Bush should be understood as a harbinger.

The unrelenting assault on the Muslim and Arab American community doesn't give that community the luxury to take a break from the struggle for justice. The rights of the entire elderly working class in the United States are also in the cross-hairs of Bush's Wall Street gunslingers. They want their hands on that social security money for the investment portfolio of the banks and corporations. The antiwar movement must speak plainly: instead of spending $270 million a day to make Iraq safe for Halliburton and Citibank, those tax dollars should be used to protect social security and to build schools and provide health care. We can bet that the Democrats will head for the hills on equal marriage rights as Bush and the ultra-right unleash a wave of bigotry. The antiwar movement must stand openly against all divide-and-conquer bigotry.

The past three years have been an awakening for many people in the United States, a realization of the role and aggression of the U.S. in world affairs and also a realization that people of the United States have the right and obligation to fight to change the direction of the country towards justice, equality, and in support of self-determination for others. Many people participated in mass action, for the first time in their lives taking to the streets, organizing educational events and petition drives, and doing outreach in their communities to their neighbors and co-workers. During this period of great drive and excitement, there was a growing hope that the global antiwar movement could bring about monumental change, and a growing political consciousness. This hope is real, and remains.

This global movement is strengthened not by looking up to the corporations that fund the two primary U.S. parties to raise up a leader to offer mild reforms, but from people standing side by side and engaging in collective action around positions of principle. This is the true democracy, and the only source for hope for our collective future.
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norml Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-04 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #26
30. Correct in that this defeat is due to the right wing political machine.
Blame does not belong anywhere else. The power of what I've called the right wing media machine,with their republican infomercials,running 24/7,with all their insult,and misrepresentation,that's what's to blame,and that's what must be countered.
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Road Scholar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-04 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #30
39. Egg-zakley!
I do wish we had something to counter Fox News etc. That twisted spin is killing us.
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StickNCA Donating Member (74 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-04 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #26
43. Huh?
Why the Election Shows the Strength of Opposition to the War

Given their united political position on Iraq and the political, economic and media power that they wield it is a testament to the strength of the antiwar mood in the country that nearly half the population has broken from that position. Of the 54 million people who voted against Bush, opposition to the Iraq war was a central issue even though by voting for Kerry they were supporting a candidate who embraces the U.S. occupation and vows to "win not leave" Iraq.



This is pap.
First they say that the war is *'s fault.
Then they say that Kerry was just as bad as he wanted the war to begin with, supported it, and merely had a different plan.
Then they say that voting for Kerry was an anti-war statement?



I've heard straighter talk from insurance salesmen.

Fuck these guys. They can stand by the mailbox all winter and wait for my next check.



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Sterling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-04 08:36 PM
Response to Reply #43
63. "First they say that the war is *'s fault."
Whose fault is it?
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genius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-04 01:36 PM
Response to Original message
33. ANSWER is affiliated with the Communist Party This isn't a flame
The connection at the top of the group was explained to me a while back. This explains that attitude. I don't have anything against communists so this isn't a put-down. Check it out for yourself. I don't have a link but the people I've spoken with are pretty reliable sources of info on the group.
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Sterling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-04 08:38 PM
Response to Reply #33
64. If Dems keep it up I will be affiliated with the Commies too.
If anyone can turn this country commie it's Bush and the Pink Tutus.
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-04 08:52 PM
Response to Reply #33
66. It's actually the Worker's World Party.
More radical than the relatively moderate Communist Party USA.
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Emboldened Chimp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-04 01:37 PM
Response to Original message
34. Fuck Mumia
He's a fucking cop killer. Let him rot.
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Hobo Donating Member (452 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-04 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #34
38. Agreed...
He should rot.



Hobo
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-04 05:11 PM
Response to Original message
46. Rage all you want to friend, but answer me this
Who else is out there conducting an effective anti-war protest and movement? Ooo, Ooo, wait for it, . . . . that's right, NOBODY!

ANSWER is THE only group out there herding the cats together into a cohesive anti-war movement. You may not like their politics, they may not like yours, but you have got to give them props for doing the job they do. Now if you can get out in front of this thing, and start running the anti-war movement on your own, then you'll have room to speak. Until then STFU. We can all get along in this coalition, but we don't need some keyboard character assasian undercutting the one group that is doing something positive.
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goclark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-04 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #46
53. Speak MadHound Speak!

There is power to the people only in numbers now.

Our government won't speak for us.
The Media has been silenced.
Our leadership has been silenced.

Only the brave souls from ANSWER and other groups like them are responding.

To see how effective we are, we got out and voted in record numbers and campaigned out hearts out, only to have our votes suppressed.
There went our voice.

Today I saw a repeat of a Bush press conference. Someone tried, David Gregory? to ask a follow up question. Bush told him "there will be no follow up questions!"

So who is speaking for you/for us?

ANSWER seems to be one of the only ANSWERS
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-04 05:14 PM
Response to Original message
47. I am anti-war. and ANSWER does NOT speak for me.

That's all I'm going to say on the matter.
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-04 05:28 PM
Response to Original message
48.  LMAO!
:toast:

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AlbertoMo83 Donating Member (123 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-04 06:37 PM
Response to Original message
49. I'm not a part of A.N.S.W.E.R.
But at the same time I dint understand this intense hatred for it, or this whole "Fuck Mumia" thing. What's that gonna accomplish??? Nothing it just makes u sound like an ignorant Right-Wing asshole. If it's a communist organization so be it, and if they think Mumia is innocent so be it. More power to them!! They have the right to there own opinion. I'm not gonna sound like a close-minded asshole and waste my time whining and bitching about it. U dont have to join!!! Im sure the DLC will get some balls and start an Anti-War movment right??? :eyes: Gimmie a fuckin break, those pussies. :mad:
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robbedvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-08-04 07:53 PM
Response to Original message
54. Made the same mistake in 2000: "We'd protest Gore if he won"
posts made me ran away - and I never stopped.
They did a lot to discredit the anti-war movement.
Not until Unitedforpeaceand justice took over was that able to grow, go international.
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Cookie wookie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-04 08:12 PM
Response to Original message
61. A.N.S.W.E.R. does have communists in their group
I watched one of their antiwar rallys in Los Angeles on CSPAN before the Iraq war and they had a small crowd. When the communists got up to speak, the crowd quickly dissolved to practically no one.

I've wanted to join marches but the only ones organized from Georgia are A.N.S.W.E.R. so I don't go.

I want nothing to do with Communists or Communism. Now that's a solution to the problems in our country -- NOT!
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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-09-04 08:28 PM
Response to Original message
62. ANSWER are lunatics
I find them to be completely beyond the pale.
Ramsey Clark, the war criminals best friend, is only the most obvious example.
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