For all you hand wringing 'change direction' types out there..

[fishface]

just because the Talibornagains tell you you're wrong and that's why we lost the election (and that jury is still out) DOESN'T mean we are.

I don't give a shit how many smirking meanderthal knuckledragging toothless Bush voting morons giggle to us about how "more 'Mericans agree with US" horseshit ..that doesn't make them right.

Fuck..these idiot just elected Bush for christs sakes. You want to take THEIR word for it that we need to change?

Fuck them and any of you that buy into that Bushit.

We're right on our issues and they're serial liars and cheats and their core constituency is made up of idiots.

( and for all you smirking meanderthal knuckledragging toothless Bush voting morons that are peeking in..fuck you too. We're not all laying down for President Dumbfuck)

[The Icon Painter]

1. Keep on preaching, brother! nt

[Walt Starr]

2. Oh we definitely need to change

Certain issue must be jettisoned immediately. Gun Control is the most obvious. It kills us in elections because people who would otherwise vote for us straight down the line cannot stomach Democrats talking about limiting their ability to protect themselves.

America is basically a nation of cowards who feel a need for protection in their homes. don't believe we're a nation of cowards? Look who got elected by "security moms".

Next, we need to learn how to talk to the average American instead of talking above them. That shit killed us and Kerry is perhaps the worst. The only thing the average American liked less than Kerry droning on and on and on about anything you care to name was how phony he came off when he was trying to talk in soundbites.

[annabanana]

3. "killed us"?

Kerry got more votes than anyone in history (besides Bush). The margin was the thinnest since Woodrow Wilston in 1918 and the machines were rigged.

I am sorry to hear of your demise Walt, but count me out.

[RafterMan]

5. Bush is the worst president ever

and Kerry lost to him.

I keep repeating this, but the Dems haven't gotten over 50% in a presidential election since 1964.

Yup, stay the course, stay the course, no problems here...

[annabanana]

19. please re-read #3........n/t

[DemocratSinceBirth]

23. i believe carter got a bare majority- 50,2%

and Perot robbed Clinton of a bare majority in 96


but your main point is spot on.....

and don't forget LBJ was the last Democratic pres to win the white vote...

[blondeatlast]

6. Bullshit. Americans overwhelmingly approve of sensible gun

control.

Go ahead, try to create another wedge issue.

[slackmaster]

11. 100% Americans approve of sensible gun control

Every individual believes his or her position on gun control or any other matter is "sensible".

We have to stop using that kind of terminology. If you say your position is sensible and I disagree with you, then from my POV you are saying I'm not a sensible person. Whether intentional or not, any claim to a monopoly in sensibility will be seen by some an ad hominem attack against them.

I'm pro-choice on guns. If you don't want one then don't buy one. You have the right to not allow them in your home. But as long as I behave responsibly with mine you have no business tinkering with my personal property. When you start talking about controlling my guns I take the issue personally. I can control them just fine all by myself.

[Walt Starr]

18. I'm all for gun control

I use both hands when firing a weapon.

[chimp chump]

22. Bullshit. Americans overwhelmingly approve of sensible gun control

You mean the 37 states that have CCW laws? The others that will follow suit in the next few elections?

CCW isn't about protecting yourself from marauding wildlife.

[fishface]

7. We don't need to 'jettison' gun control, we need a campaign

that takes the fight back into their face and quit this pussyfooting 'we're better than that' crap.
Every election we allow them, to define us and we sit back and weakly go "no we're not" instead of hammering those clowns.Most Americans are for sensible gun control.

[RafterMan]

8. Why does it have to be decided at the national level?

What Americans define as "sensible" breaks down more easily on a regional level.

[fishface]

9. The republicans make it a national issue.

What was the democrats "gun control" issue in this election?

Anyone?

THERE WAS NONE .

Just what the republicans created.

We need our own Lee Atawater to beat the shit out of these clowns.

[RafterMan]

10. Yeah, but

why *didn't* they make an issue of it?

I did not support Dean, but he was dead on on this one -- he stated his case for state-level controls loudly and proudly. The ticket that ran just got painted with the same old brush, plus a goose hunt.

[fishface]

12. Because we have ineffective leadership.

And the DLC may be the biggest contributor to the problem.

[RafterMan]

14. Now I'm confused

You disagreed with Walt about the wisdom of jettisoning gun control, but you think it was a leadership mistake not to do just that.

Am I missing something?

[fishface]

15. I don't think gun control was even an issue this time.

What I think is we allow them to define us and sit back and take it.

As you pointed out..we had a weakass vulnerable president and couldn't beat him. There were so many ways Kerry could have attacked Bush that were left by the wayside.

That has to stop and we have to quit allowing them to walk all over us in the name of being 'better then them'.

Nice guys finish last.

[slackmaster]

13. Senator Kerry is a co-author of gun control proposals on the table now

At least one - See S.1431 (which is probably moot in its present form because it refers to sections of the United States Code that no longer exist).

The DNC gave lip service this year to supporting the right of Americans to own guns, but actions of individual candidates and members of Congress muddy the water.

Please don't shoot the messenger here - Senator Kerry donning camouflage and blasting a few birds out in the brush didn't convince the gun-owning community at large that he seriously supports their Second Amendment rights. You are free to disagree with what you think they think they mean by second amendment rights 'til the cows come home, but all the bickering about it here won't change the way a lot of "red" area people think.

FYI my support of the right to gun ownership is based on libertarian and not 2A grounds, so don't even bother trying to engage me in that discussion.

[Walt Starr]

17. Any presidential candidate must be able to handle an M1911 .45 ACP

The recoil is not as bad as many assume.

Any Democratic presidential candidate had damn well better be able to hit 8 out 10 shots into the kill zone on a target with said M1911 .45 ACP.

Any Democratic presidential candidate had damn well better be able to intelligently discuss the stopping power of the Berreta 9mm and why this is of concern for our military.

Any Democratic presidential candidate had damn well better be able to talk the talk and walk the walk. Photo ops goose hunting in camo only pisses off gun owners more, especially for a candidate in a party that holds the label of Anti-Gun.

[slackmaster]

20. Goose hunting pisses off animal rights people too

Another traditionally Democratic constituency chucked in a vain attempt to pander to one group.

[baltodemvet]

16. Change approach not direction

I agree with this: "We need to learn how to talk to the average American instead of talking above them" (and the way to learn is to listen.)

But this doesn't require that we jettison principles.

[blondeatlast]

4. HALLELUJAH! Amen to that.

I'll say it again and again: the Democrats need to look BEHIND them, at their history, in order to move ahead.

[chimp chump]

21. just because the Talibornagains tell you you're wrong

I've been reading some exit polling that indicates that Bush only upped his numbers among evangelicals about 1% over 2000.

But Kerry only beat Bush on the women's vote by about 3%. Gore beat Bush by about 11% among women.

And Bush did get 23% of the gay vote. Apparently, Bush improved his numbers among black voters and Jews a bit too.

Maybe this is what people should look at. Personally, I'm reconsidering whether there was a very strong connection between Bush being re-elected and the gay marriage bans passing. There is some connection there. But obviously a lot of Democrats voted for Kerry and the marriage bans too.

It'll take a while to sort this numbers out and draw the right conclusions.