It's the propaganda, stupid!

[JohnnyCougar]

We lost this election simply because we were unable to counter the Rove propaganda the RNC put forth. The RNC propaganda machine is coordinated, concise, and effective. It reaches people all over, from suburbs to country side. The message is coordinated and believable, because it is not coming from some well-groomed hack on TV. RW talk radio allows the public discourse to be controlled by RW talking points. The DNC doesn't have to change its issues and move anywhere, it just has to get better at the propaganda game. Progressive issues can be framed in a light that is attractive to the majority of the voting public, even in red states. Ignoring the effect of RW talk radio and Matt Drudge has gone on for far too long. We should start right away with building a counter-propaganda machine for 2006 and beyond.

<*>Poverty causes abortion. Republicans cause poverty. Vote Democrat and abortions will go down. Republicans do nothing because they want to keep abortion as a wedge issue.
<*>Gay marriage is a state issue. We don't want to expand the powers of the federal government and have "big brother" governing our every move. That is a Communist idea. Let the states decide like it says in the Constitution.
<*>In 2004, the Republicans ran on morals. Now they are running from them. The Iraq war has been a humanitarian catastrophe. We bombed more people than the rising number of abortions under Bush killed fetuses. And it brought us no benefit. We shouldn't be bombing pregnant women in Iraq.
<*>Letting the assault weapons ban run out was an idiotic idea. Now any terrorist can simply pick up a machine gun and fire into our schools. We can't let this happen. Keep our children safe!

Learn it, repeat it, use it!!!!

[slackmaster]

1. Propaganda works best when it's actually truthful

Spin and hyperbole are fine, but please leave the total bullshit out of it.

[JohnnyCougar]

4. You are why Democrats lose elections.

What part of the Republican propaganda is truthful? Is it working for them?

[slackmaster]

6. I will not tolerate my party basing its sales pitch on falsehoods

That's the main reason I'm not a Republican.

Mark my words, if the DNC starts spewing bullshit propaganda like some of what you just spat out I'll hit the silk. Maybe join the Libertarians.

[JohnnyCougar]

8. Explain to me how the following points are false.

[slackmaster]

10. Point by point per your request

<*>Poverty causes abortion. Republicans cause poverty. Vote Democrat and abortions will go down. Republicans do nothing because they want to keep abortion as a wedge issue.

You're right that poverty causes abortion and that abortions go down when Democrats are in power, but the latter is true because Democrats are more amenable to making birth control available. Republicans (at least as presently configured) restrict access to birth control and to abortion largely because some of them think both are morally wrong. They are wrong about that IMO, but a lot people agree with them and it's not a conspiracy to create a wedge issue.

<*>Gay marriage is a state issue. We don't want to expand the powers of the federal government and have "big brother" governing our every move. That is a Communist idea. Let the states decide like it says in the Constitution.

If you make gay marriage a state issue you'll end up with a gigantic cluster fuck as soon as a married gay couple relocates to a state that doesn't allow gay marriage and tries to file a tax return as married. You'll have two freight trains headed for each other on the same track unless there is a uniform nationwide standard or reciprocity among the states.

<*>In 2004, the Republicans ran on morals. Now they are running from them. The Iraq war has been a humanitarian catastrophe. We bombed more people than the rising number of abortions under Bush killed fetuses. And it brought us no benefit. We shouldn't be bombing pregnant women in Iraq.

Iraq was a humanitarian catastrophe before the war. Saddam needed to be taken out. The problem is we've gone about it the wrong way. As for the number of abortions vs. people killed in Iraq, without concrete numbers your statement looks like you pulled it out of your ass. And any soldier who bombs pregnant women or orders others to has committed a war crime. We have proper ways to handle that sort of thing. Your hyperbole will leave people unimpressed.

<*>Letting the assault weapons ban run out was an idiotic idea. Now any terrorist can simply pick up a machine gun and fire into our schools. We can't let this happen. Keep our children safe!


Total bullshit. The "assault weapons" ban had nothing whatsoever to do with machineguns. Automatic weapons were regulated in 1934 under the National Firearms Act, and that is still in effect.

If you want to really know what the impact of expiration of the ban will be, please educate yourself. I recommend this new document: http://www.mikecaswell.com/AWBGuide.pdf - You'll need the Acrobat 6 reader.

Thanks for asking.

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JohnnyCougar]

16. hehe...you just lost the argument

You're just a fed up right wing fundy. Always getting mad and bashing liberals. Go home to your right-wing fundy base and see if they believe your "fundy" reports. I know they aren't true, because I get my opinions from talk radio!

***********************

Ok, my little charade is over. But so you see what I'm getting at? I am using simple arguments that are easy to understand and memorize. They seem true, so they are true to me, especially if I hear them enough on the radio, and read about them on the internet. They make sense to the common people not very involved in politics, who are looking to identify with a point of view, and not get into a detailed debate. You're not going to woo people to your side by using the word "hyperbole." You tried, and you got mad at me because I didn't understand. If I were a dull-witted swing voter, how would that help convince me? It would convince me that you are an asshole, and I don't want to identify with you.

We already know smart people vote Democratic more often. You can't win over minds by out thinking the lesser educated. The Democratic party does better with well educated people, yet their policies are meant to help lesser educated people. Why this contradiction? It is simply the language that we use. We use educated language to reach out to non-educated people, and we end up attracting educated people instead. If we are reaching out to the poor right religious, we can't inundate them with complexities like Kerry did. I love John Kerry, and I think he is a wonderful candidate, but his message wasn't readily acceptable by the simple minded.

You only prove my points about what is wrong with the Democratic party. Of course I know what "hyperbole" means. Of course you are pro-choice. But you are over-thinking things in classic liberal fashion. Because I don't over think things just like you, you call me a fucKKKhead. The truth is, I was playing with you, trying to get you to realize how a swing voter views your argument. The more complex you make it, the less they will believe it. "Poverty causes abortion" is true, it is simple, and it makes sense! It will work, trust me.

I hope you get over your temper tantrum. I didn't mean to piss you off, I just wanted to make a point. There are more zombies than critical thinkers in this world, and if we continue to pretend that this isn't true, we will continue to lose elections.

[slackmaster]

19. You were the first to engage in argumentum ad hominum, friend

You're just a fed up right wing fundy.

Actually I'm an amused middle of the road libertarian, but you're not paying attention to what I actually say so it's not surprising you have this problem.

We already know smart people vote Democratic more often.

Another "fact" pulled out of your ass. You might be right, but without actual numbers you may be making an inaccurate guess. Conventional wisdom is often wrong. I read in the paper this morning that 42% of Hispanic voters picked Bush. I know "Hispanics" are a diverse lot, but that one surprised me.

Because I don't over think things just like you, you call me a fucKKKhead.

No, I called you a fucKKKhead because you called me a right-wing fundy. :D

I hope you get over your temper tantrum. I didn't mean to piss you off, I just wanted to make a point.

OK, whatever; but it would have helped if you'd used some sarcasm tags or smilies when you called me a right-wing fundy.

There are more zombies than critical thinkers in this world, and if we continue to pretend that this isn't true, we will continue to lose elections.

Yes, but we have to understand how best to address the problem of zombies. I say shoot for the head. 12-gauge slugs work well, and don't bother with a pussy 9 mm.

[JohnnyCougar]

22. Alright.

The point was that swing voters don't pay attention to what people say when their reality can be explained by simple facts. I called you a fundy because that's how swing voters' minds think. Most people strive for parsimonious explanations of what is happening. They are easier to believe because it hurts their brains to think. If you give them a complex explanation that doesn't fit their mold of reality, it is easier for them to call you a name and say you are wrong than consider your new facts. MENTAL LAZINESS.

Propaganda doesn't necessarily mean lying to people, it just means shaping the truth in a way that makes them want to believe it.

Take, for example, "Iraq has WMD's." It is simple, and people wanted to believe it, because after 9/11, they were looking for an enemy. Any enemy would do. When people think they are under attack, they want to attack back, no matter who attacked them.

Poverty is our wedge issue. "Republicans cause poverty" is not only true, but it is easy to believe. Republicans have the stereotype of being for the rich all the time. It is simple.

"Poverty causes abortions" is easy to believe, too. You can easily imagine a poor girl with no money having to get an abortion because she has no job or healthcare. Simple, concise, and with enough of an element of truth to make it worth repeating.

The conclusion is simple. "Republicans cause abortion." Rural and swing voters are highly skeptical of politics and Washington. Tell them that the Republicans will never get rid of abortion, because the need it as a wedge issue to survive. Paint them as Washington insiders that can't be trusted.

The Republicans have been doing this for years to the Democrats. I suggest we do the same. This is politics, not high school debate club. It's fuck or walk. And I don't like walking.

[slackmaster]

23. Thanks Johnny, I understand you now

It took a long time to diffuse in through my thick skull.

I was being dense and took it hook, line, and sinker. You got my goat and made an excellent point.

[HootieMcBoob]

9. Everything there is true!

We have the truth on our side we don't have to lie the way they do.

I guess you think Al Gore really said he invented the internet huh?

[FrenchieCat]

2. Propaganda works well

when you got a corporate media calling Kerry a Flip Flopper and treating the Swift Tidy Bowl Vets like they are guest Stars on a game show.........

It's the media spreading the RNC propaganda....stupid!

[JohnnyCougar]

5. The media can't spread our talking points

because we don't give them any. We need talk radio and coordination with our websites if we are to get our message out.

[FrenchieCat]

11. We gave them some....

They just don't like them!

[DemOperative]

3. yes, a basis in truth helps. Those points all have that.

Its a FACT that as the poverty level increases, abortions rise. It's also a fact that abortions went DOWN under Clinton and UP ever since Shrub took office.

Gay marriage should be a NON issue. How and what threat does a sanctioned relationship pose to the family?

What is moral about war? It's the most immoral act perpetrated by one group of humans upon another. Especially when there is massive disregard for civilian populations.

If I didn't know better , I'd think someone who called these points "bullshit" spends way too much time at the board whose name ends with "republic"

[JohnnyCougar]

7. Exactly. You have to present evidence for this.

Show people the studies that show abortion on the rise. Give them to liberal talk radio hosts, liberal websites, congressmen giving speeches, etc.

Circulate pictures of Iraqi citizens that have been bombed, just like those crackpot anti-abortionists circualte pictures of aborted fetuses.

As for gay marriage, we're protecting the constitution, not destroying marriage.

We need a coordinated message!!!

[sandersadu]

12. Johnny Cougar

I'm with you. It seems as if some people here just aren't "practical" Propoganda works. We ignore at our peril. See 2000, 2002, 2004 elections. We lost they won, what's so hard to understand about that?

[ElectroPrincess]

15. Well put ... find "wedge issues" that spur intense emotional

responses, divide the electorate into US vs. THEM categories ... perfect recipe to promote corporate fascism. Throw the fundies a bone by stirring conflicts up or starting another war right before 2006 and 2008 elections. SHAKE, RE-STIR, RECYCLE ad nauseum as needed -for *'s Godly Crusade to Democratize (Christianize?) the Middle East.

For me - - - > simple sentiment "YIKES!"

[Walt Starr]

17. Good thread!

:thumbsup:

[JohnnyCougar]

18. Thanks, and Kick!!

I want people to start using these talking points!

[wiggs]

20. That's the whole enchilada, IMO

Their propaganda, with media help, shaped the issues, shaped Bush's image, shaped Kerry's issues. The candidate and issues don't matter because RNC will create perceptions of each that don't exist.

They voted for a Bush that is not real, against Kerry that doesn't exist, and for a few issues for which they have incomplete understanding.

Bottom line: control of information works, truth be damned

[Robert Oak]

21. Damn Straight, massive propaganda machine n/t