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What's wrong with class warfare?

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baldguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-05-04 02:00 PM
Original message
What's wrong with class warfare?
Jobs. Health care. Social security. Pollution. Crime. Education.

All these issues effect the poor & middle class to a greater degree than the rich. And as the rich get richer the differences are greater.

The GOP is the party of the rich. The Democrats have to redefine themselves as the party of the people.
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GRLMGC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-05-04 02:01 PM
Response to Original message
1. Nothing n/t
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Xipe Totec Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-05-04 02:01 PM
Response to Original message
2. Nothing. What are we waiting for?
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jayfish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-05-04 02:02 PM
Response to Original message
3. The Same Thing That Is Wrong With Morals Warfare.
Nothing!

Jay
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baldguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-05-04 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #3
12. The "Morality War" is wrong.
Because the GOP defines it ONLY in the terms of gay rights. Morality is so much broader than that: equality, social justice, LEGAL justice, personal responsibility & everything I've mentioned above. They don't even come close to addressing any of that.

THEY ARE LOST when they talk about morality outside the context of gays.
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jayfish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-05-04 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #12
18. I Know, I Know.
I am just making a point. That point being that when ever the Pugs open their mouths about "morals", we need to say they are engaging in morality warfare.

Jay
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NYCGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-05-04 02:02 PM
Response to Original message
4. That's just something Republicans say when we're making good points.
NT
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davepc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-05-04 02:06 PM
Response to Original message
5. it only works when people THINK they're lower class
the rural poor who vote bush don't see themselves as lower class/working class/under class whatever.

They got their tax refund check so thats good enough for them.

Again, the republicans have defined the terms of the debate so well since 1994 we need to change the whole debate.
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baldguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-05-04 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #5
16. Why?
Is their job secure, or can it be outsourced by their employer? If they lose their job, do they still have health insurance? Whether or not they're employed, how are they going to pay for their kids' college? Do they what to keep their air & water clean?

We've got to make them realize that by supporting the GOP, they've given up their control of their lives to corporations that don't have any concern at all for their best interests.

The middle class doesn't want to be treated like serfs. Thats what the GOP wants to turn them into.
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Strawman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-05-04 02:07 PM
Response to Original message
6. Nothing at all
Edited on Fri Nov-05-04 02:09 PM by pse517
We have become intimidated from framing economic issues in terms of class and basic fairness. That probably has something to to with being beholden to the Rubinomics wing of the party's fundraising apparatus. There is class warfare going on if we point it out or not. And it's asymmetrical warfare. They have tanks from having every institutional advantage and we are using sticks and stones. Republicans have been very effective with the "it's your money" theme. Maybe we need to say something like "they (the rich) think it's all theirs." When it comes to wages, health care, college, and retirement security, they think it should be all theirs. All for them and none for you.
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auburngrad82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-05-04 02:12 PM
Response to Original message
7. Nothing is wrong with it but the GOP has succeeded in blaming us
All of the woes facing America have been blamed on the "liberals." You and I and everyone here knows that that's just a load of shit but the average non-thinking American has bought into the GOP's spin hook, line and sinker.

We need to start attacking the GOP for the problems. They've had complete control of the government now for 4 years, control of everything except the White House for the 8 years previous to that, and have expanded their hold on the government. We need to make sure that people are aware of all the negative effects of the GOP's failed policies.
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RafterMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-05-04 02:14 PM
Response to Original message
8. You're fighting it wrong
"Jobs. Health care. Social security. Pollution. Crime. Education."

You can't play the class card with a list of things you're going to give to people -- you're just asking them to grovel for your crumbs instead of someone else's.

Play class warfare by tearing down the powerful. Since the Dem policy makers are the powerful, they get in the way of their own message.
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IrateCitizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-05-04 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #8
15. EXACTLY! You need a unifying theme.
My choice is, "Nobody likes the boss. The boss tries to make you work harder and harder for less and less. We know you want to work hard. That's why we'll stand with you against the boss, to make sure you get your fair shake for your hard work."

And when the Republicans make their charges of "class warfare", we can reply, "Of course it's class warfare. You've chosen to join up with the boss against the workers, we've chosen to join up with the workers against the boss, because the boss doesn't need any help. It's the workers who need it, because they're the ones who we always tell that if they work hard and play by the rules, they can have a better life. We're helping the workers because they deserve to have that promise honored, not betrayed as you would do to them."
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RafterMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-05-04 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. Yes -- I agree completely
I've worked every grunt job there is and in all of them, everyone is convinced that they're the ones who *really* make the company run. There is a huge well of pent-up resentment to tap.

But the problem is that the latte liberals who shape Democratic policy are the boss. I would expect them to stamp out anyone who tried to use this powerful tool.
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FellowAmerican Donating Member (151 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-05-04 02:18 PM
Response to Original message
9. I'm really saddened
by the tone this site has taken since Tuesday! I hardly recognize some of the people here who spoke of unity and progress before the election. All I've seen as of late is how can we make the situation worse - and most of it involves hurting your fellow citizens! I am disgusted at the constant blame of every group - gay, rich, southern, 'red.' I don't have answers on how to fix things, but the direction that allot of people are advocating is just wrong. This is my opinion, of course and I fully expect to be creamed.
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jacksonian Donating Member (699 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-05-04 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #9
14. don't despair
it was a tough election, people need to vent. Obviously some blame has to go somewhere, and you know what opinions are like...

The only people reading this right now are junkies. Chill.
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jacksonian Donating Member (699 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-05-04 02:18 PM
Response to Original message
10. Nothing. it is what we should be fightng for
The upside is economic justice. We need it.

Downside is we will never raise the kind of money you need to compete.

Frankly, I think we should deal with the downside and work toward the upside.
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-05-04 02:18 PM
Response to Original message
11. Nothing is wrong with it. Get out there and FIGHT!!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
FIGHT! Take this country back one town and state at a time!
http://www.geocities.com/greenpartyvoter/electionreform.htm
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IrateCitizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-05-04 02:20 PM
Response to Original message
13. Step one of redefinition -- actually becoming a party of the people
I'm going to keep saying this until I turn blue, and have everyone on this site against me. I think that the Clinton years were perhaps the worst thing, long-term, for the Democratic Party. And before anyone responds with blind fury, let me explain.

With the Clinton years, the Democratic Party adopted a new attitude toward big business. It began to champion free trade (i.e. NAFTA). It supported the push for deregulation of the telecom industry (1996 Telecommunications Deregulations Act, pushed by Clinton). It sought economic guidance from Wall Street bigwigs (Robert Rubin) as opposed to labor and traditional friends of labor. It made the conscious decision to court corporate cash in order to try and overcome the Republicans in fundraising.

Throughout all of this, the brunt of the Democrats' newfound friendship with Corporate America was borne by the American worker. These were the people who were taught that if they played by the rules and worked hard, that they would be OK. They were betrayed in this. Every time jobs were shifted overseas, it wasn't the Bob Rubins of the world seeing their health benefits disappear, savings dry up, and job opportunities diminish. Hell, the Bob Rubins of the world made boatloads of money off of this. No, it was this honest, trusting American worker who saw all this happen.

Of course, the Republicans were just as complicit in all of this -- probably more so. But with the mouthpieces they had and the Democrats lacked, it was too easy for them to glide in and fill these people's heads full of places to lay their blame (liberals, Democrats, gays, blacks, and so on). Furthermore, they pointed out the emerging cultural liberalism of the Democrats and how it contrasted with the "values" that were prevalent in the heartland.

If the Democrats still had the card of economic populism, of standing on the side of the worker, they could have trumped this cultural conservatism. But they had already thrown that card away, in the process of cozying up with Corporate America. Therefore, they were caught relatively empty-handed, and had little left outside of a strategic retreat.

Bill Clinton won election and re-election due to several factors. One can cite the presence of Ross Perot in 1992. You could also cite dissatisfaction with an out-of-touch incumbent that same year. Also, Bob Dole was a less-than-appealing Presidential candidate. But perhaps more than anything else, Bill Clinton won these races on the sheer force of his overflowing charisma.

Charisma may get you elected, but it won't push through an agenda unless that agenda really speaks to people. Therefore, much of the Clinton years -- especially from 1994-2000 -- could be best described as a strategic retreat in the face of a Republican onslaught. Granted, it was a quite well-executed retreat, but it was still a retreat.

The response of what Skinner termed the "center-left libertarian" wing of the party, typified by the Democratic Leadership Council, however, was to describe this as "winning". It sought to promote this kind of embrace of corporate power while proposing "nibbling around the edges" policy initiatives as a winning formula. My belief is that Bill Clinton was elected twice, largely IN SPITE OF this formula, due to the aforementioned reasons.

In the midst of all of this, with the seizure of the "values" card by the Republicans and the abandonment of economic populism by the Democrats, the results are quite predictable. While there are promising happenings in localities and state houses in the country, on the national level the Republicans are in full control and the Democrats are adrift. The conservatives STILL view politics as a marathon race, while the Democrats STILL approach it as an electoral sprint every few years. Republicans appear to be the party of ideas because their ideas -- no matter how half-brained they are -- are always wrapped around central, emotional themes; while the Democrats largely react to Republican proposals or drift off into wonk-speak, expecting people to respond to policy initiatives described simply in pragmatic terms without any connection to greater values.

We'd better wise up to this trend, and fast. We'd better learn to re-embrace economic populism, and to play it up on the "values" end to the electorate. We'd better start coming down on the side of the worker, as opposed to talking about him while we continue to shill for the boss. We'd better do all of this, otherwise we'll be consigned to the dustbin of political history, preserved for viewing purposes only in a glass jar right beside the one labeled "Whigs".
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baldguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-05-04 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #13
19. Agreed. Clinton is "GOP-Lite".
And people will always go for the real thing over a poor imitation.

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TheDonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-05-04 02:55 PM
Response to Original message
20. Democrats need to hammer away class warfare
because the republicans have declared war on the middle and lower classes.
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