My AIM conversation with a fundie on Stem Cell Research

[Hippo_Tron]

@l is me, Ted Williams is the fundie. This is in response to a rant I posted about the Bush administration and setm cell research.

(20:36:32) TED WILLIAMS2727: are you the author of the eloquent trash that is your profile
(20:36:51) @l: hrmmm, well in a manner of speaking, yes
(20:37:06) TED WILLIAMS2727: i commend you on your complete and total ignorance
(20:37:15) @l: on what?
(20:37:51) @l: ignorance with regards to?
(20:38:10) TED WILLIAMS2727: issues in American politics
(20:38:21) @l: specifically?
(20:38:35) TED WILLIAMS2727: everything mentioned in the trash that you call a profile
(20:39:02) @l: so how am I wrong about stem cell research?
(20:39:15) @l: which is basically the issue that I'm referring to
(20:39:53) TED WILLIAMS2727: well first of all your comparison to the seventeenth century is ludicrous
(20:40:29) @l: how so? the president is opposed to stem cell research on religious grounds, and that's it
(20:40:39) TED WILLIAMS2727: no see that's the thing
(20:41:00) TED WILLIAMS2727: your comparison to the religious grounds of the 17th century and the religious grounds of today is pure ignorance
(20:42:03) @l: no, it's still religious grounds. It's still allowing religious ideals to influence the progress of science
(20:42:52) TED WILLIAMS2727: but it's not comprable at all!
(20:43:49) @l: how so? it's scientific progress
(20:44:03) TED WILLIAMS2727: that's not proven
(20:44:24) TED WILLIAMS2727: newton was trying to understand the universe, it went against the church's understanding of the universe
(20:44:41) TED WILLIAMS2727: this is impeded scientific "progress" on the basis that it is not "progress" at all!
(20:44:55) TED WILLIAMS2727: in fact, it's not truly a religious opposition when you get right down to it
(20:45:05) @l: what's the opposition, then?
(20:45:28) TED WILLIAMS2727: destroying human life in order to perhaps find a way to(in the very far future) save a few human lives?
(20:45:34) TED WILLIAMS2727: how is that anything near the same thing as newton
(20:45:42) TED WILLIAMS2727: it's completely ridiculous and perfectly ignorant to say that
(20:46:31) @l: because the majority of people who happen to believe that embryos in a freezer are a life form that needs to be preserved (who are by no means a majority of people in this country) happen to be very religious christians
(20:47:19) TED WILLIAMS2727: well then we live in dark dark times
(20:47:42) TED WILLIAMS2727: where does it say in the bible "an embryo is a human"?
(20:47:44) TED WILLIAMS2727: nowhere
(20:47:51) TED WILLIAMS2727: it's not an inherently christian ideal
(20:48:26) TED WILLIAMS2727: how can an embryo not be a human? it's illogical
(20:48:35) @l: it doesn't, but that's the way that many christians have chosen to interpret their religion.
(20:49:12) TED WILLIAMS2727: and so if their ideas are based on religion and morality they must be wrong
(20:50:01) @l: no, but according to my morals it's wrong and I don't think that the morals of a small minority of people in the country should create public policy
(20:50:29) TED WILLIAMS2727: your morals? what morals?
(20:50:50) TED WILLIAMS2727: what moral code justifies murder?
(20:50:53) @l: my morals that we should do what we can to assist our fellow man
(20:51:10) @l: well my morals don't say that a single celled organism in a freezer is a human life, that's just my view
(20:51:19) TED WILLIAMS2727: it's not single celled god damnit
(20:51:24) TED WILLIAMS2727: you ignorant fuck
(20:51:42) TED WILLIAMS2727: don't you get it man? the fact that it's in a freezer is what we oppose
(20:51:51) TED WILLIAMS2727: the fact that it is not given the opportunity to live
(20:52:06) @l: it's already sitting in the freezer, what do you want to do with it?
(20:52:15) TED WILLIAMS2727: how many beings must die to make progress on a single disease
(20:52:17) TED WILLIAMS2727: how many thousands?
(20:52:34) @l: their not life forms, in my opinion, they're just cells
(20:52:46) @l: or at least not human life forms
(20:53:23) TED WILLIAMS2727: I just can't understand how you could even think about saying that
(20:53:30) TED WILLIAMS2727: it's so incredibly illogical in every way
(20:54:59) @l: It's just the way I feel, I think that they are just cells, no different than the cells on my skin or in my hair. And I think that we can sacrifice a few thousand cells to save and improve the quality of millions of lives
(20:55:30) TED WILLIAMS2727: stem cell research has not been proven to be able to "improve" or "save" even one life
(20:55:39) TED WILLIAMS2727: they aren't just cells man
(20:55:58) TED WILLIAMS2727: can your skin cells grow into a human being, capable of life, of a full and long life?
(20:56:06) @l: that's because it's a fairly new process. And if there weren't prospects of saving or improving lives, scientists wouldn't be working onto it
(20:58:05) @l: No, they can't, but I personally just don't believe that because it has the potential to be human life that it is a human life
(20:58:32) @l: An egg in a woman's body has the potential to become a human life and they don't do so naturally
(20:58:54) TED WILLIAMS2727: no poo that is a very false argument that you frankly shouldn't even try
(20:59:09) TED WILLIAMS2727: it does not have the potential to develop into human on its own
(21:00:32) TED WILLIAMS2727: all I know is that the wheels are in motion to making our society a champion of righteousness
(21:01:02) TED WILLIAMS2727: i hope and pray that someday everyone will see this is the right path for this country and for all of mankind
(21:01:37) @l: well that's great, it also sucks for the people with diseases, birth defects, genetic disorders, and not to mention the 50 million people without healthcare
(21:01:51) TED WILLIAMS2727: healthcare is not the issue here
(21:02:01) TED WILLIAMS2727: and on the other topic
(21:02:26) @l: no but if we're on the path to righteousness, we're sure as hell leaving a lot of people behind
(21:02:58) TED WILLIAMS2727: another ignorant comment
(21:03:16) TED WILLIAMS2727: you can't cure everything with some magical "death cure"
(21:03:37) TED WILLIAMS2727: what next? stem cells to prevent car crashes?
(21:04:58) @l: and that means we shouldn't try to cure diseases, with methods that many scientists believe will work
(21:05:13) TED WILLIAMS2727: at what price
(21:05:18) TED WILLIAMS2727: at what motherfucking price
(21:05:32) TED WILLIAMS2727: would you kill everyone in the future to cure everyone in the present
(21:05:35) @l: in my view, and in most of the country's view, a bunch of cells in a freezer that will be sitting in a freezer anyway
(21:05:48) TED WILLIAMS2727: those cells should not be sitting in a goddamn freezer!
(21:05:54) TED WILLIAMS2727: don't you fucking understand that!
(21:06:04) TED WILLIAMS2727: the sick fucks who put that shit in the freezer should be drawn and quartered
(21:06:22) @l: well they are, you want to turn them into life and bring them into the world without parents?
(21:06:40) TED WILLIAMS2727: first of all where are these embryos coming from?
(21:06:48) TED WILLIAMS2727: from people donating them am i wrong
(21:09:30) @l: pretty much
(21:09:43) @l: but there are thousands that are sitting there that can't be destroyed by law anyway
(21:09:55) TED WILLIAMS2727: those thousands shouldn't be sitting there
(21:09:59) TED WILLIAMS2727: they shouldn't have been donated
(21:10:04) TED WILLIAMS2727: this all gets back to the source
(21:10:23) TED WILLIAMS2727: rampant creation of human life for no reason is irresponsible and wrong
(21:11:17) @l: it's not the point anyway, the point is that I don't believe that embryos are humans. They resemble no living and breathing human, and I think that the research that we could use them for could actually save many living breathing human lives
(21:12:02) TED WILLIAMS2727: well i'm sorry that you or anyone else thinks that
(21:12:37) @l: your moral beliefs may tell you that, but mine, and millions of others', don't and I don't think that public policy should be shaped by the moral beliefs of one group
(21:12:48) TED WILLIAMS2727: see that's the thing
(21:12:55) TED WILLIAMS2727: your belief is not morals first of all
(21:12:57) TED WILLIAMS2727: second of all...
(21:13:05) TED WILLIAMS2727: millions of others?
(21:13:29) @l: I think it's fair to say that millions of the people in this country are willing to sacrifice embryos toward the progress of science, yes...
(21:13:40) TED WILLIAMS2727: but they don't understand the gravity of the issue
(21:13:58) TED WILLIAMS2727: first of all that stem cell research is not the be all end all of scientific progress in medicine
(21:14:08) TED WILLIAMS2727: in fact its benefits have all but been shot down in recent years
(21:14:20) TED WILLIAMS2727: second of all that embryos are not the only place stem cells can be obtained
(21:15:01) @l: bullshit, ask almost any scientist in that field and I bet that they would tell you otherwise
(21:15:18) @l: and embryos are the most practical place to get them from, adult stem cells don't work very well
(21:15:26) TED WILLIAMS2727: don't work very well?
(21:15:42) TED WILLIAMS2727: if they work even a fraction of the way embryonic ones do, why not use them?
(21:16:08) @l: because adult stem cells don't work for many of the things that they want to do
(21:16:36) TED WILLIAMS2727: the plain fact is that this "scientific progress" you're talking about isn't progress at all
(21:16:49) TED WILLIAMS2727: your analogy to the 17th century is once again perposterous
(21:17:03) @l: medicine is science, progress in medicine is progress in science

21:17:15) TED WILLIAMS2727: no damnit it's not progress at all!
(21:17:24) TED WILLIAMS2727: it's a step backward into some sort of hellish dark ages or something
(21:17:50) @l: funny, that's the exact way I feel about suppressing science
(21:17:51) TED WILLIAMS2727: don't you understand? if you can kill embryos in the name of "science or medicine" what the fuck can't you do?
(21:18:10) TED WILLIAMS2727: i suppose you support cloning too
(21:18:25) TED WILLIAMS2727: hey that guy has a fatal disease! let's clone him so we can make another one of him that is healthy
(21:18:29) TED WILLIAMS2727: oh boy isn't this progress
(21:18:36) @l: that's not what cloning is about
(21:18:38) TED WILLIAMS2727: fuck man you are a twisted fuck
(21:18:52) TED WILLIAMS2727: cloning is the great crisis of our time
(21:19:11) TED WILLIAMS2727: if it isn't stopped then the whole world is in for a transformation I don't think anyone will like
(21:20:47) @l: I disagree but that's a different issue entirely
(21:21:20) TED WILLIAMS2727: not really it's actually along the same lines
(21:21:22) TED WILLIAMS2727: but I have work to do
(21:21:38) TED WILLIAMS2727: I hope you realize just how ignorant at least the first part of your profile is
(21:22:00) @l: you are correct, they are related, but cloning is crossing a different barrier
(21:22:18) TED WILLIAMS2727: I think it's on in the same as far as morality goes
(21:22:30) TED WILLIAMS2727: I gotta get outta here I encourage you to change your ridiculous profile
(21:22:32) TED WILLIAMS2727 logged out.

[seaj11]

1. Oh my god.

You obviously didn't make this up. Whenever I hear one of them blabbing like that I want to go take a shower. Yuck! I applaud you for putting up with that shit.

:yourock:

[pk_du]

2. would this guy be "our Ted"

http://www.forumplanet.com/profile/index.asp?u=6977975


btw - more than a little ironic given Ted Williams own desire to circumvent "gods plan" for his mortality?

[Hippo_Tron]

5. NO SHIT! I think it could be...

I know that he plays Warcraft III. If you're wondering what he's like IRL, he's a smart guy but a complete religious fundie who GOES NUTS about almost everything. BTW how did you find the guy on those forums, he's posted like 3 times?

[Ducks In A Row]

3. love that righteous foul language

hyprocrite

[andym]

4. One interesting bit of information

One interesting bit of information is that our somatic cells (the cells on our body that are not dedicated to reproduction) may very well be capable of being reprogrammed to act like embryonic stem cells using the very techniques of cloning mentioned later. The DNA of a somatic cell is the same as that of a blastomere, and can be reprogrammed by transferring the nucleus containing the DNA to an enucleated egg cell.
When it works that cell can then form an entire new organism, like Dolly the sheep.

So your argument that a somatic cell is like a cell from an early embryo (blastula) is a pretty good one.

The whole idea of how cloning works must be very disturbing to someone who believes that an embryo is a human, because it suggests that even skin cells are potential humans. From the religious perspective a human has a soul: how the soul enters/is created in this case would be problematic.

This example has real significance, because one of the goals of embryonic stem cell research is to develop a way to make embryonic stem cells out of somatic cells.

[seaj11]

6. I didn't know that.

Thanks!