Straight people who think gays cost the party can kiss my lesbo ass

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

I keep hearing this argument mostly from males that issues of a women's rights and GLBT rights are costing us.

One must stand defiantly for equal protection under the law. Selling out and COMPROMISING is what got us here.... first with the poor, then with unions, now with women and GLBT's.

Furthermore, I am tired of hearing that it's different than being AA since I can go into the closet and AA's can't.

I won't be the scapegoat of the middle.

We either stand FIRMLY on the principle of equality - or we equivocate and claim some people's rights are more equal than other people's rights.

[Dookus]

1. I agree

it's sickening.

[autorank]

156. Nothing to do with gays: see below!

Corporate America controls the media and we get manufactured news.
Corporate America now controls the voting machines and we get manufactured elections.

http://www.blackboxvoting.org/

[NewYorkerfromMass]

2. I'll say it right here. Cultural issues didn't cost us shit

Kerry's dense intellectualism did.
Anyone who listened to him got it. The idiots who didn't did not.

[TwilightZone]

12. Oh, cultural issues certainly cost us plenty.

When 22% of the voters claim "moral values" as an issue, denying that cultural issues cost us is impossible.

Unfortunately, the Republicans were quite efficient at getting out the bigot vote by scaring the sheeple with the gay marriage issue.

We shouldn't deny that it happened. We should figure out what the hell to do about it.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

18. Those people were voting for Bush no matter what

we lost the middle with people who thought Kerry would not be hard on terrorists, or just didn't trust him in general.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

43. It's not an issue of changing minds. It's an issue of energizing them.

Let's face it, people got energized to get out and vote for the anti-gay marriage amendment. It passed by huge numbers even in OREGON. To say it didn't get people motivated to vote is the understatement of the year.

[TwilightZone]

63. I think you're missing the point.

They DID cost us because they voted in higher numbers than they normally would have, thanks to the underhanded BS of the Rove machine.

It's obvious that most were going to vote for Bush anyway. So, should we just accept that and assume we're down 22% immediately regardless of the outcome?

I think not. Obviously, the only way to counter votes that we have no chance of obtaining is to obtain some of our own, which means an even more concerted effort to get out the vote on our side.

Though, I also believe that the entire 22% is NOT a lost cause. We need to do a better job of making other issues a stronger influence - health care, education, SS, jobs, unemployment, etc.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

72. I think you are all assuming these issues got people to the polls

who normally wouldn't have voted. I simply don't believe it. Exit polls don't refelct that. If they do please steer me to the evidence.
I will be more than happy to concede the point.

[TwilightZone]

90. Exit polls most certainly DO reflect that.

Tons of people on DU have quoted the CNN exit poll - 22% of the people polled claimed that "moral values" was THE primary reason for their vote.

"Moral values" is Republican code. It definitely means anti-gay, and it likely includes anti-choice and/or anti-minority, as well.

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/pages/results/states/US/P/00/epolls.0.html

Scroll down to "Most Important Issue".

22% of the total is 25,000,000 people.

I don't know about you, but I really doubt that we got 25,000,000 people to go out and vote because of "moral values". It's obvious that these are Bush people - Bush got 80% of that vote, according to these same exit polls.

Prior to the last couple of weeks before the election, "moral values" wasn't even on the radar screen - it was in the single digits. Obviously, something got these people out there.

I think we have to acknowledge that there are an awful lot more single-issue voters out there than we would like to believe and that the Republicans motivated them.

Edit: minor changes

[eridani]

173. Moral values is THE number one issue for me, period.

Invading a country that never attacked us and could not attack us is far and away the one of the most morally evil things that has happened in this century.

[Nashyra]

181. Cultral issues did not cost us the election

It was the marketing of the cultural issues and the media's spin on how they were presented to the American public. And don't even say fuck about moral issues. The people of Nevada voted for the * and they voted to keep the "brothels" open. Go fuckin figure. It's a strategy, we need new leadership at the dlc, Dean.

[President Kerry]

28. so you say pple want a redneck C student as our president

as opposed to an intellectual? It's frightening if that's what bush voters really think....

[NewYorkerfromMass]

33. bush voters... think?

That's the problem. They don't think.

[d_b]

60. A 'redneck' from connecticut no less

[TwilightZone]

65. Bush is a simpleton. He has a corner on the simpleton voters.

And, apparently there are a LOT of them.

[arewenotdemo]

70. so why the "dense"?

Why blame Kerry if the ignorant didn't listen or listened but didn't understand? Do our candidates have to do the impossible? Do they have to spell each and every thing out to the brain-dead??????

[GOPBasher]

84. I'm sorry, but we lost because of the cultural issues.

Look at the sea of Red in the middle of the country. They'll never consider voting for a Dem president simply because of abortion, gay rights and separation of church and state issues. Rightly or wrongly, those are the facts. Am I saying, "Let's forget about gay rights!"? Of course, I'm not. I'm just stating the facts right now. By the way, my personal position is this: the people don't seem ready to accept gay marriage, but I think Civil Unions aren't out of reach.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

87. But the swing voters hinge on personality

I'm sorry but cultural issues are not the decider for MOST people.
It is trustworthiness and character. Kerry simply did not convince a lot of these people. And note how they hyped the war on terror.
Bush is a strong beligerent bully. He is the image America embraced.

[GOPBasher]

91. You're right about swing voters, but they're not the ones who beat us.

The Republican base beat us. And the Republican base is huge now only because of these cultural issues. It's the church gap. We're going to keep losing if we don't stop this. But I don't know how to stop it. It's not like I'm just going to say, "Okay, let's go ahead and discriminate against gays. That's cool." How do we do this? I have no answers. It's just a stupid nation; let's face that fact.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

152. No. I am going to start a new thead on this- cultural issues are smoke.

In a tight race like this it is the swing voters who decide it.

[lynintenn]

107. agree with your post

[LSK]

169. WHAT ARE YOU PEOPLE ARGUING A BOUT??? IT WAS DIEBOLD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Stop this bickering and focus on the REAL REASON WE LOST.

[Jersey Devil]

3. I agree and think Kerry was wishy washy on that issue as well

His explanation of gay marriage vs. civil unions and why he was against one and for the other and states rights and being Catholic and all that jazz was not clear even to me and I knew his position.

I think you have to clearly state your position and although others may disagree with you they will respect you more for being clear and honest about it. He was neither.

[unfrigginreal]

4. It's not gay rights that cost us but the freaking hardcorps that were

pushing gay marriage sure didn't help.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

5. There were no freaking hardcorps pushing for it

Most GLBT groups didn't like the fact that it was necessary to back off but did. This would NOT have been a national issue but for the FMA issue...raised by Bush to divide us.

[unfrigginreal]

9. That's bullshit. All you had to do was read all the threads here

about how gays shouldn't subject themselves to being second class citizens. The fight should have been on restricting constitutional freedom rather than laying claim to a meaningless term.

[AP]

16. The fight shouldn't not have been about laying claim to a meaningless term

Yes. I agree with that.

It should have been about rights like health care for same sex partners, rights of survivorship, and all the other legal rights the government confers on married people.

It should not be about whether the government should confer upon people the spiritual status of being married.

Kerry and Edwards said the right things about this issue. There was some friction on the ground, but it wasn't too bad.

Mostly it was a lost opportunity to talk about workers' rights and making peoples lives better. The biggest problem, I guess, is that because Kerry and Edwards didn't run in states where this was an issue, they couldn't get out an alternative message. So Bush used this issue in those states to pad a huge popular vote victory. I guess they also used it to win in OH and FL.

[polmaven]

57. The fault does not lie

with supporters of homosexual rights...even the "hard core" supporters.

The blame lies with the homophobic bigots who are more concerned with what two men or two women do in their own homes than with the lives of tens of thousands of innocent civilians in another country because they aren't "us".

If the choice is between losing an election or abandoning my homosexual brothers and sisters in their fight for freedom, I will choose the former every time.

[gator_in_Ontario]

185. thumbs up! good point! n/t

[progressivebydesign]

35. It was the ROVIANS that pushed it!! NOT us...

We were all about fairness to EVERYONE. The Rovians pushed and pushed on the Gay Marriage issues and the partial birth abortion issue because they KNEW that those were hot buttons with the voters in the South. Kerry supports Civil Unions, as most Democrats, and probably Americans do. Rove is the one that used bigotry to create a wedge issue.

[arewenotdemo]

73. and voters in Valuesville, Ohio

[kentuck]

6. nsma, it wasn't the gays that cost our Party...

it was the sneaky and secretive attack upon the gays by the Republican Party which was very successful and it is difficult to argue with those facts. We should not say it is the "fault" of the gays. Everyone wants equal rights. The decision we will have to make is what is the best way to get them? Obviously, if we think we can debate it state by state, that would be unwise. As proven by this election.

[mzmolly]

7. GLBT rights are not costing us, our allowing the RW to define morality

in their terms is what cost us.

[MsTryska]

13. hear hear.

that in a nutshell, is it.

[Cha]

46. VEry Good!

Mz Molly! :hug:

[ScreamingMeemie]

8. Here. Here. We cost us the party. We didn't fight the lies hard enough

We didn't expose the media for the lying cheating Mofo's (did I, MrsGrumpy say that?) that they are. We didn't push on the Plame case...we didn't push on the mole in the Pentagon (anyone remember him) we didn't push on the WMD's...the war vote...and on and on. We blame ourselves, not our gay and lesbian fellow patriots. I'm done with the media.DONE.

NSMA, I am sorry so many of my fellow Dems feel the need to place the blame on a "wedge" issue that never really was.

Laura

[TwilightZone]

10. I don't think that gays cost the party. I think that the Republican BS

"moral values" campaign against gays cost us.

It's utterly and despicably wrong, but these Bush bastards managed to scare the shit out of every right-wing wacko by claiming that the institution of marriage is threatened by gay marriage.

What a crock of shit. Unfortunately, it seems to have worked. Get out the bigot vote!

Gays don't deserve any of the blame. I would hope that most Democrats don't feel that way.

Please realize that people are being really thoughtless and really stupid right now out of shock and anger, and just about everyone is getting the blame. That's not an excuse, because anyone on our side of the aisle scapegoating gays is deplorable, but I think it's just knee-jerk stupidity.

[Redleg]

11. The gay marriage issue was divisive and decisive in this election.

That doesn't mean to say that gays or lesbians cost us the election. We needed to do a better job framing the gay marriage issue as a civil rights issue and that preserving civil rights is a MORAL issue.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

14. Thankyou. I do acknowledge as much

I'll be gone most of the day but reading threads that claim we should abandon these principles rather than REFRAME them irks me.

[Redleg]

22. Me too. The interesting thing is that Kerry and other Dems

were not really pushing for gay marriage. In fact, both Kerry and Edwards were against it (but for civil unions). The Rethugs succeeded in scaring people into believing that Dems were going to force us them to recognize gay marriages.

[jarab]

54. For the last fucking year TV viewers have been

subjected daily to those asking FOR gay marriage. The argument was made FOR gay marriage (not civil union) long before Kerry was nominated.That cannot honestly be denied. Or, do others not receive the Rosie Channel via CBS Evening News.
Is it remotely possible that the issue made it to eleven state ballots simply because it was made such a wedge issue - initiated by (guess who)?
Let's get real. All arguments may be successfully tendered if the facts are excluded.
...O...

[Redleg]

104. So are you blaming gays for wanting to be able to be married

and to receive the legal benefits of marriage? It sure sounds like it.

[mdguss]

15. Individuals didn't, the gay and abortion rights movement did:

Gay marriage is not like the civil rights movement. Count on this Democrat to remember the idotic fights on the gay rights movement and the abortion rights movement in this election. Simply put, Gay Marriage and Partial Bush Abortion=the election of George W. Bush.

[VelmaD]

50. I really hope I misunderstood you

Are you actually blaming women and gays for agitating for equal rights?

[chiburb]

100. That's how I read it too...

Some are still crawling out of the woodwork...

[fishface]

17. As a straight male, I find your message title very distracting

but I have to agree with you once I shake the image in my head.:evilgrin:

[jonnyblitz]

19. thanks teena!!!

:hug:

[JI7]

20. i blame the bigots

i agree, we should never give up on equal rights. the right wingers are the ones who purposely put the issue of gay marriage on ballots to help them get a large turnout. what i hate is that when the right wingers do this the media talks about it by calling it a "moral" or "values" issue.there is nothing moral about gay bashing. but when kerry brought up the mary cheney the media jumped all over him saying he was an opportunist .

they didn't even mention the work they got mary cheney to do to reach out to gays to vote for bush.or how bush himself flip flopped on the issue of constitutional amendment which was so obviously done for political gain. they didn't call out hypocrite bitch lynne cheney on not saying anything when alan keyes attacked her.

and most of all i'm angry at the bigots themselves. many of these fools even admit bush isn't doing such a great job on domestic and foreign issues but it comes down to the gay righs issue for them. when i hear this i find it nearly impossible to reason with them as they purposely ignore the suffereing bush is causing around the world when voting based on their hatred.

[RogueTrooper]

21. I agree NSMA

:yourock:

[GingerSnaps]

23. Why didn't someone tell me that gays lived inside of the black boxes

:evilgrin:

[KamaAina]

24. I don't think gays cost the party

may I kiss your lesbo ass anyway? :-)

Point of clarification: The only gays who may have cost the party are the Log Cabin types who voted repukkke even though they knew going in that the repukkkes didn't consider them to be human beings.

[okieinpain]

31. exactly, this is a battle that gays are going to have to win on their

own, much like blacks did in the 60's. those stupid ass gay parades where they try to offend as many people as possible is not helping their cause.

[charlie]

42. Not sure what you mean

by win on their own. They agitate, we respond. Much like the blacks did in the 60's. The civil rights legislation that resulted came from those that championed the cause within the gov't. And it was signed by a Democratic president. It cost us dearly, remember Wallace Democrats? They're now Republicans. Do you think it was worth it? I do.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

142. Blacks had help and support from whites, it wasn't totally on their own

anymore than the women's movement was only women. So when can I expect my straight friends to board busses with me and do an EQUAL RIGHTS RIDE through the red states and confront them on this issue?

[okieinpain]

25. I understand what you're saying but you have to admit a lot of

gays voted for george bush. a lot of bigots black and white voted for george bush because of gay marriage. sorry, but that is the truth.

[freetobegay]

127. Fuck you & the pig you screw!

[okieinpain]

128. well isn't it true. did a whole bunch of out of the closet gays vote

for bush.

[mitchtv]

155. you are so how can I say it? Oakie? about right

gays were universally against bush. The blame goes with the ignorant oakies and arkies and hillbillies and Heretical christians that you apparently represent

[Ripley]

26. Actually NSMA, it's all the fault of my Farmer friend Jean...

See, she's a Rural Alabama Lesbian who wants to marry her partner of 25 years.

:eyes:

DU has flipped out, whether on purpose or because of disruption it's hard to tell.

[buddhamama]

27. Yeah! They can kiss my ass too!

I am tired of the term Gay Rights.

There is no such thing and anyone who uses the term has fallen for the Right-Wing's propaganda.

[PhuLoi]

29. Here are three reasons for someone to vote based on opposition

to gay rights:
1. Ignorance
2. Stupidity
3. Nothing else.

[Nevernose]

30. Gays didn't cost us -- hate and intolerance did

Homophobia, racism, and misogyny cost us this election. Whether the issue is gay marriage, the war in Iraq (aka "Killing Brown People"), or abortion and other women's rights, the issue always comes down to ignorant fucktards who are so afraid of their own shadow that they'd vote for Satan if he promised them that he hated homosexuals.

We, as a nation, are precisely ONE STEP AWAY from the days of lynching anyone not like "us."

[truebrit71]

32. Mmmmmmmmmmmmm Lesbo Ass....

It's what's for dinner!!!

But seriously, gays didn't cost is the election the right-wing extremist Christian Taliban (aka RNC) caused it. Well, them and their corporate sugar daddies...

No ill-feelings here at all....

Now, back to that visual..... ;-)

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

144. In my case, it's the other white meat

:evilgrin:

[FDRrocks]

34. They can kiss my straight ass, too

"We either stand FIRMLY on the principle of equality" Right on! :headbang:

[Frangible]

36. It wasn't the gay's fault

The fault lied with the majority of Americans who are prejudiced and voted with hatred and fear this election.

I fully support gay marriage. However, most of America does not. It sucks, but I don't know what else to say.

Realistically, I think civil unions are the best we can hope for. But even that will take time. Right now, America is very bigoted against gays.

[madrchsod]

38. bigoted against human beings

not just gays-human beings that are not just like them.

[madrchsod]

37. of course the "moral issue" costs us the election

after all there are no queers or lesbo`s here in cracker nation. nope we are all god fearing men and women who screw only each other..well occasionally our neighbors ,or the women or guys we work with or at the bar..you know hetero stuff..not that faggot stuff, you know like that one down the end of the bar...well ya know you get really drunk , really drunk ...it just happened. nope we are all god fearing woman/men loving hetero`s and i warn ya`, stay away from you know who-they got a homo in their family..but don`t say nothing ....
fuck cracker nation,they are so deep in a sea of hypocrisy it`s a wonder they don`t drown....

[sub.theory]

39. Know how you feel

As a 24 year old, I'm sick to death of being blamed too. "If only more of those damn kids had showed up". Yeah, whatever. Face it, the Democrats lost another campaign because they ran another pathetic campaign. Absolutely no fire to be found anywhere. I guess they thought they were being so clever by "taking the high road". So, don't worry. I don't blame you for our loss. It wasn't homosexual issues. The "christian" fascists were NEVER going to vote for us. Thinking they would have is just fantasy.

[Duncan Grant]

40. Still lovin' you like crazy! Standing ovation!

Thanks for posting this, NSMA. I needed to see this after draggin' my ass around Ohio for the last few days. Some of these people at DU are fucking ingrates.

Please see: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=1314081&mesg_id=1314081

[yardwork]

41. This straight white woman stands with you!

If we allow Republican manipulation of the media and polls to scare us away from our ethics, then what do we have left?

If I let the party abandon you because you have a different sexual orientation than I do, then who protects me when they come for the Pagans? Who protects African Americans? Who protects Latinos? Who protects women?

If we allow the Republicans to succeed they will whittle us down to nothing.

[sandersadu]

44. Big Picture

Here's the thing: I support gay rights. Maybe however, the whole issue could have been postponed to you know sometime AFTER the election, i.e. Gavin Newsom could have started handing out gay marriage licenses in San Francisco this week (after Kerry was elected) than in February.

But this is evidence of a total lack of leadership and strategy w/in the Democratic party. Don't you think if some wacko Republican governor or Mayor wanted to outlaw abortion in their district or take away minorities right to go to school, you know someone in the RNC would have made that person "fall in line" and wait til after the election.

If you don't think gay marriage was the club that Bush wielded against us to victory this election, you're fooling yourself.

[GingerSnaps]

49. I second your opinion

:hug:

[2Design]

45. exactly - this is what helped build the hitler III Reich - get them

against each other - makes the trip to the oven become easier over time

first glbt
then jews
then liberals
somewhere blacks
and all the rest of non whites....

they start on one group - they did it in the 1930 they are doing it again.

[TreeHuggingLiberal]

47. There is no need to place blame...the only need is to learn

We can place no blame for someone wanting to be able to marry, or in the case of civil unions equal rights under the law, after spending their entire life together. It is ridiculous to think that anyone would wish to place blame when f*cking Britney Spears can get drunk and marry someone and then annul and yet a gay/lesbian couple of 50 years cannot have the same benefits that would be accorded to someone who treats marriage as a joke. I find it utterly proposterous that anyone should even dare to think of dropping the fight for equal rights.

We have to stand for justice. And to win, we have to be able to control the conversation. Like the repubicans have known for years, it's all about framing the conversation. We did not try to show, as fmr. General Wesley Clark showed during the primaries, the values of the democratic party. We tried to stay away from negative campaigning, but telling the truth about the treatment of the poor in this country is not negative campaigning. We were taught a valuable lesson this election. Do not roll over in such cases as the electronic voting machines without paper trail, and never let the repubs define everything as a moral battle. We failed to put a face on all the people that Bush has been hurting most, and IMO it cost us the election.

[Lorien]

48. It's a total strawman fabricated by Rove and the media, NSMA

FEAR was their weapon, but they don't want to own it. Neither does the media, because they played accomplice. The television has become a hypnotist; they create the fear for ratings and control, then repeat "values" and "gay marriage" until the people honestly believe that was the true motivator. The wolves ad wasn't about gay wolves.

Kerry and * had the same stand on the issue; both agreed on civil unions. People need to stop paying for cable TV.

[kentuck]

51. It's not a total strawman...

to deceive yourself in such a way is not helpful to anyone. Eleven states increased their turnout with "that" ballot issue and all of them voted it down by huge margins, from the South to the North.

[Lorien]

55. We've allowed them to frame all the arguments

"give up the gun issue" "give up the choice issue" now "give up civil rights", one wedge issue ever two years, until there are no more liberal issues. Until WE frame the arguments, nothing will change.

Both * and Kerry were pro-civil union. There's no difference there. Fear is what did it for BushCo.The rest is just Rovian bullshit.

[Toucano]

56. And they lie about our position.

It isn't our position on the issues, it's the lies about our position.

[LisaL]

61. You are completely mistaken.

The issue on the ballot was against gay marriage. And it was voted for overwhelmingly.

[d_b]

52. Agreed.

and I feel the only way to get gays their RIGHTS is to do the only thing that ever has: Organization and cooperation.

Let's not make the argument, "Should gays marry"

Let's make it, "Should gays be treated like human beings"

Again, we're letting the right DEFINE EVERYthing.

[Toucano]

53. 23% of the gays voted for Bush according to CNN's exit poll.

That's 4.6 million votes.

Had they voted for Kerry, we'd have had 60,325,108 votes to Dubya's 59,247,194.

I don't know how that would have affected the electoral vote, but we could have won the popular vote if gays and lesbians had supported Kerry more.

[Warren DeMontague]

108. Yeah, I'm not sure what's up with that.

Y'all should have a word with them at your next "Homosexual agenda" convention, you know, where you lay out the master plan to corrupt the nation's morals through girls' bathrooms in Texas schools.

[Toucano]

121. I'll see it gets put on the agenda.

We'll put it right behind our "recruiter of the year" award. ;)

[tedzbear]

113. That boggles my mind!

23%? 4.6 million gays and lesbians voted for the chimp? My gut tells me that CNN's methodology is wrong. I could believe 2% maybe, but 23%? In my corner of the gay world, that just isn't so.


:eyes:

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

145. Either hard core Log Cabin, Pink Pistols or they are lying

How do they know it's 23% of all gays? Nobody polled me?

[Toucano]

161. I guess it technically isn't

23% of all gays.

Of the people they surveyed, 4% said they were gay. Of that 4%, 23% voted for Bush.

I applied that ratio total number of votes.

Of course they could be lying.

CNN also reports 38% of union members surveyed voted for Bush.

Were there Jews who voted for Hitler? That's what I'm seeing here.

[erniesam]

58. I agree, straights can kiss my queer ass

it is starting to sound like the democratic party is about to cut us loose.

[Mike L]

59. Sure, Right. I'm sure that the film of Rosie O'Donnell's wedding, plus

hundred's of other gay marriages played well in middle America. 75% of Americans voted in favor of gay marriage bans in states that carried the issue on their ballots.

Gay marriage is one of the cultural (not "civil rights") issues that cost us the election.

[buddhamama]

66. The fundamental principal behind Civil Rights is Equality.

The Only cultural issue here is the Right-Wingers culture of Ignorance and Hatred.

[Mike L]

120. So, 75% of America is RW?

[buddhamama]

122. Where did you get the 75% from-

1) 75% of Americans didn't vote the other night for Bush or in State elections (75% of Americans didn't even vote) and 2) 75% didn't answer a poll either

[Mike L]

132. The gay marriage bans passed by about 75% on state ballots.

I think it only pssed by 57% in Oregon where the G&L community actively campaigned against it. Of course, Oregon is a blue state.

[buddhamama]

175. Ah. But that's not what you said, was it?

You said, "So, 75% of America is RW?" You implied that the voting on Tues represented the view of 75% of America. I called you on it, and I see you have nothing to back it up.

The population of those States alone does not even make up 75% of America.

[Mike L]

184. Wow, you really got me on that.

Let me amend my statement: "So, 75% of (voters in those 11 states) are RW?"

[AntiCoup2K4]

182. Oregon is only a blue state in the I - 5 -corridor.

Thank God that's where most of the population is, but many of the other counties there (as well as Washington state) are Freep central. Oregon has had an organized homophobe "movement" for over a decade that failed (until now) to pass any statewide measures but managed to enact a lot of anti gay county ordinances.

And for the record, THIS "breeder" stands with you "sodomites". It ain't your fault that a bunch of red state sisterfuckers are so delusional that they see you as a bigger threat to this country than a drunken cokehead who has lied this country into two wars.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

146. Do you or do you not believe that all people should have equal protection

under the law? It's that simple.

[Inland]

187. That's a crap argument and illustrative of why we failed to convince on GM

Throwing out a slogan and then pretending that anyone not convinced by a bumper sticker of an argument is a bigot. Not only did we ensure that we would stay on the minority side of an issue, we made sure that the majority would be so offended and alarmed that they would vote against us just out of me against you tribalism. They not only voted against those who were for gay marriage, they voted against people who didn't hate it.

I guess it comes down to the fact that a vote is power even in the hands of wrongminded folks, and declarative sentences and attitude doesn't change that.

[jobycom]

62. They can kiss my straight ass, too

There's a reason we are Democrats, and that reason is because we actually believe in what the Declaration and the Constitution say. Anyone who thinks we win by abandoning why we even have a separate party don't get it.

The answer is to convince people we are right, not to surrender to their bigotry and hatred.

[Pathwalker]

68. What jobycom said.

They can kiss my straight ass too. They're bigots.

[yellowcanine]

64. Gays are no more the cause of Kerry's loss than Blacks were the cause

of the Democratic Party losing the South. It is better to take a principled stand and lose than to "out segregate" your opponent and win.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

67. Here's a straight white male whose ass is available for the same smooch.

It's appalling how eager some here are to abandon everthing that the Democratic Party allegedly stands for to appease the right wing bigots.

[charlie]

71. Fuck it

I'm for doing whatever it takes to save the party. We need a new name first, to cleanse the taint of the old. How's this:

Homo Hating Lefties

Eh?

Naw, too strident. Not positive. Let's... see...

Commies For Christ

That's it. We keep the base and put out the welcome mat for Fundies. Electoral GOLD!

[TexasSissy]

126. Oh, I must've missed that page on gay marriage in the Platform doc.

What page is that on? However, I think pro-choice is in the party platform.

[charlie]

143. Oh man

That's a variation of "where does the Constitution mention abortion (or privacy, or separation of church and state, or the right to vote, or...)?" routinely used against us. You really need that sort of literalism to believe Democrats ought to be on the side of equal protection?

[malatesta1137]

69. brava

nuf said

[oc2002]

74. Principles will not protect your Social Security retirement. or ..

..the environment, or clean air, water, fair minimum wages or living wages, unemployment or outsourcing, or be protected from corporate fascism, or from fanatical religous zeolots NOW IN GOV...

your losing already, with 'stand by principles or die' ....


YOUR ALMOST DEAD NOW!

[NewYorkerfromMass]

78. you're spelling is bad.

[jobycom]

81. Neither will lack of principles. nt.

[jpatti]

96. How many principles can we abandon?

Sorry, I'm new... don't know how to quote yet... To the d00d who said we're losing already with 'stand by principles or die'... no, the Dems are not almost dead now due to principles, they abandoned most of them anyway.

The convention was a flag-wrapped, military-oriented, jingoistic party that would've made Hitler proud. Kerry didn't oppose the war, but campaigned that our soldiers needed reinforcements and supplies. He *opposed* gay marriage. The Democratic party has abandoned so many principles, it's barely recongizable. A few elections back, I'd have voted against Kerry since he campaigned as so freaking conservative.

How many more principles should Dems abandon? The party's already turned into a rightist party. It can't go much further without outright nominating the Republican candidate!

While I cast my vote for Kerry, I didn't vote *for* him but *against* Bush. Cause when up against fascism, suddenly conservativism looked pretty good in comparison. I'd have voted for a chimp if I thought he could defeat Bush.

I don't know what the answer is here. I *despair* utterly that Bush won, that democracy failed so utterly. I'm a refugee in mourning for the death of my country. I've been crying for days - the grief is unspeakable.

But I'll be *damned* if I'll mourn the death of my principles as well. My country may have abandoned them, but *I* will not.

Cause if we have a worldwide election where I'm the *only* human being alive who votes for human rights and for freedom and for justice and the last person who votes against bigotry and against hatred and against fascism, it will be the *right* thing to do.

And no matter how I am outnumbered, I would *rather* be dead than live with myself if I did otherwise. I would not be *me* if I voted for pogroms.

My heart is breaking mourning my country; I will not mourn my very self.

[tedzbear]

114. Welcome to DU, jpatti!

I would follow you anywhere. You are my friend.

[sampsonblk]

75. I agree 100% , Tell them to fuck off!

I feel like I have said this a million times: We are NOT wrong. They are. Instead of hiding what we believe in, we need to be out there convincing people that we are right, and that our party can be trusted and believed in.

I have an idea! Maybe in 2008 I can pretend I am not black, you can pretend you're not lesbian, and everyone else can pretend they aren't whatever they are. Yeah that will win over the swing voters! NOT. Fuck that.

[DuaneBidoux]

76. I don't say gays cost the election and we must stand up for all groups

We just need to play the game a little differently. Play it more like Bush, how he pretends to be helping the working folks by "reforming the tax code" (read Bill Gates pays less, you pay more) All these people that voted for Bush who will continue to get poorer because of him. We need to do something similar with gay issues...make it stealhier, that's all.

[independentpiney]

77. Civil Unions should not be presented as a gay issue.

There are many other people besides gays that would benefit from having access to the healthcare, inheritance rights and other things civil unions provide.

IMHO marriage is a matter for churches, not the state.

[GumboYaYa]

79. Preach on Sister....

here's one Dem who's not about to sacrifice such important principles because "moral values" idiots cost us one election. The republicans sold out to thereligious right decades ago and it is just paying off for them. The right will expect the Republicans to pay the piper now. Give these wackos four years and the decent moderate Republicans out there will be as appalled as we are.

No way, nada, not gonna happen, that I give in to pressure to become Repuke lite to try to win an election. I either stand on principle or get knocked down time and time again trying.

[Kipepeo]

80. Thank YOU

For this thread.

There are a lot of people here trying to stir up division and place blame where it does not belong.

:grr:

[Stuckinthebush]

82. They can kiss my straight ass too!

I'm with you...

[eridani]

174. And they can kiss my ass twice!

Bisexuals are entitled to that.

[AuntPatsy]

83. I believe a viewing of "Bush's Brain" would dispute such finger

pointing to one issue as being paramount. We need to stick together both behind the scenes and in front of the scenes, let's take into account the false numbers that decided this election, we all know they stole votes, veryily easy to do considering many were computer generated, I promise you..

There are more open minded Americans than these hate filled fearful right winged zealouts, mobilize and stand firm, there are much more of us then them, we need to use that to our advantage and it is possible....

Living in the bible back states and having traveled much of the US, I have no doubts that Liberals are the majority, sticking to the issues firmly and without faltering and explaining these reasonings in the most simplistic human terms enough for all to understand should not take a rocket scientist to acheive it..

[noiretextatique]

85. you forgot the wholesale SELL-OUT of disenfranchised voters

yet another group of democratic voters consigned to the back of the bus...along with the rest of us...while some pursue office park dads and soccer moms.
i hear you, nsma...they can kiss my ass too!

[Q]

86. Thanks for speaking up about this...

- This is simply one more WEDGE issue...used by the RWingers to divide the Democratic party.

- Enough of this shit of ALLOWING the GOPers use these issues against us. We should stand proudly for equal rights under the law. Screw the bigots.

[PurityOfEssence]

88. Which cheek?

It's all a question of timing. At a time of marginality, when we know that the enemy is marshalling resources based on hatred of the different, to sally forth on a bent that will specifically annoy them is a bit reckless.

Who's to say? It IS obvious that "moral" issues were the #1 determinant; so sayeth the exit polls. This certainly wasn't the time to raise this issue. Presuming that the issue raised itself through the inevitable sweep of time, it still could have been prudently contained for awhile.

I can't quash gay upswells that are ill-timed. I can't have any voice at all in religious issues. I can't do anything but be a supportive voice. Yet, in the same breath, I'm of the most imperiled minority: those who don't believe in the Witchy Man.

It's not your fault, but it certainly wasn't the time to bring it up. Sadly, it probably wasn't something that was deliberately brought up as much as it was something that had come up with time. To not have quashed it out of mutual self-interest IS something you need to accept: this was known to be a time of slim margins and extreme influence of the idiotic straight-laced hyperreligious idiots, and there was no restraint of note.

You didn't do us in, but you didn't help us one little bit.

This race was decided on hate. That taint will stick to the right only as much as we make it do so. To waste psychic energy excoriating each other won't help much, but it will be less of a service to ourselves to not recognize and admit the many forces that came into play.

Had the issue of Gay Marriage never come up, or if it was left as an odd anomaly in Massachussets, THEY PROBABLY WOULDN'T HAVE WON THIS ELECTION. You do get THAT, don't you? My arguments with David Zephyr where he accused me of being not much more than a Capo for the enforcement of the pink triangle are eerily resonant now: the marshalling of hatred against the "different", based on the childish superstition of fundamentalist Christianity is what decided this race.

We need to be more disciplined in our coalition attempts, or we will be driven deep into the dirt.

[transeo]

93. Didn't help "us" one bit?

What is that about? We didn't help one bit? Oh really? Tell that to the millions of glbt folk who worked their asses off canvassing, donating money, fundraising and getting people out to vote. We did TONS to help John Kerry win the White House. No it didn't work, but how dare you say we did nothing to help.

[PurityOfEssence]

105. Yes, we're all part of this "us"

Those who are most marginalized have always been the true strength of the Democratic Party. I didn't say you did nothing to help; indeed, you are our great strength. Re-read my post and don't take it as an attack.

There's a time for everything. At a time of great divisiveness, latching onto VERY controversial issues is suicidal.

Unless you haven't noticed it, we're in a time of fear and hatred. Trying to advance that which should be advanced when we're in a time of darkness and superstition is not wise. Feel free to contact me off-board to discuss this.

Who's most to be praised? One who fights for his/her self-interest, or one who fights for what is right, knowing full well that this will cause him/her less of a slice of the pie? It's not such a bit of self-congratulation; I truly feel that all should be free to be able to be who he/she is. That's better for all, and that's a reasonable glancing definition of liberalism.

We're at war. Introducing and fostering divisive issues doesn't help.

More than anything else, your efforts were in no way denigrated, and not being willing to address issues within the coalition without shrill polemics is not your right; we're all in this together.

Dammit.

[Sapphocrat]

101. Wow.

PoE, you get the award for making my jaw drop today.

To not have quashed it out of mutual self-interest IS something you need to accept: this was known to be a time of slim margins and extreme influence of the idiotic straight-laced hyperreligious idiots, and there was no restraint of note.

As I have asked others here (and never gotten a direct answer): What, exactly, do you expect, or even want us to do? Lie back, spread 'em wide, and take it?

Let me ask you: Do you blame pro-choicers for *'s win just as much as you blame us? After all, those in favor of women's rights could have "quashed" their own self-interest until the rest of the party, in its infinite wisdom, told those uppity ferminists when it was safe to show their faces again.

And I suppose black folks really should have shut up in '64, bent over, and taken it up the butt too? And don't start with the "black civil rights = legitimate; gay civil rights = illegitimate." That's a tired, stale argument from people who still harbor the archaic notion that being gay is a choice, and can't seem to wrap their minds around the fact that we are a genuine minority. I'm sick of hearing it, and I won't even bother to respond to it.

You really don't get it, do you? The radical right cares little about the marriage issue -- we've been getting married, in the religious sense, since B.C.E., and so far, we haven't destroyed the "sanctity" of anybody else's marriage, have we?

What you don't understand is that they are insanely obsessed with the fact that we ARE gay, and there's not a damned thing they can do to change it. These are people who do not merely want us marginalized -- they want us fucking DEAD. They cannot stand the idea that people they so detest could ever be considered "equal" to them.

(Golly, NOBODY feels that way about African-Americans anymore, do they? Ever heard of the White Stormfront? Ever seen an issue of Southern Partisan magazine?)

The marriage issue is the only legal means they have to persecute us at the moment.

And if you don't think this is just the first step in their crusade to overturn every small gain we have made in the past 30 years, you have not been paying attention.

What are you going to say, PoE, when Bush's Supreme Court overturns Lawrence v. Texas? I suppose you'll expect us to shut up and be glad that the re-institution of sodomy laws in this country doesn't carry a death penalty. Not, mind you, that the righties don't wish they carry out some good, old-fashioned Levitical justice against sodomites. (Heard any rumblings lately from the Christian Reconstructionists about the return of stoning homosexuals to death? I've heard them. Do you REALLY have any working concept of the word "theocracy"? I do.)

Christ... I guess we should just go back to being grateful every day we don't wake up dead, huh?

As for this:

You didn't do us in, but you didn't help us one little bit.

Of all the lashing-out against gay people over the past 24 hours, that is THE most singularly fucked thing ANYONE has posted yet.

We didn't help you one little bit. So we didn't vote for Kerry, in spite of his mushy "support" of us? So we didn't donate money to his campaign, or to any other Dem candidate's? So not a one of us uppity, ungrateful little queers worked phone banks, manned polling places, registered new voters, drove old voters to the booths, wrote letters, or spent countless hours convincing undecided friends, family members, and complete strangers to swing to the Dem side?

(Hm, has anybody seen God_bush_and_cheney around today? He should be in here getting lectured about what a liability he is, too -- after all, it's not like he literally risked his life fighting the BBV cabal, is it? And if you have no idea what I'm talking about, just go ask GBC. I'm sure he'll be more than willing to tell you the whole scary story.)

Didn't help you, indeed. We stood with you, shoulder to shoulder, on the front lines and behind the scenes, working our asses off for the same goal -- despite being hounded and blamed throughout the entire campaign.

That's a hell of a lot more than I can say for some heteros around here. It's the same old story: We are expected to stand with you -- as long as no reciprocity is required.

As someone said a few posts above, it does appear many of you, in your desire to have SOMEONE to blame, really do want to cut us loose from the party.

Keep this up, and you'll get your wish. And before you tell any of us not to let the door hit us in the ass on the way out, ask yourself if your misguided blame game is worth the loss of three to four million votes.

Even the DLC isn't crazy enough to alienate us to that extreme.

Are you?

Think about that in 2006.

[PurityOfEssence]

118. we've done nothing for you, have we?

Those of us who've fought for gay rights and gotten slagged in the process just don't count, huh?

It's hard to ask the downtrodden to wait just a little longer; imagine how I feel as an anti-religious agnostic to just keep taking the continual encroachment of superstition. At least I know that this belief will never be accepted in this wacky certitude that is America. Gays are slowly and surely winning acceptance, and have a much better chance of doing so.

The issue is what's possible during times of great conflict.

I didn't bring this up; I responded to a friend who started a thread that was combative and frustrated. People who want to hold their pain and marginalization as some kind of shield against any tactical rebuke are no better than any other claimers of privilege.

Except for the issue of religious privilege in society, it would be better for me to go with the status quo. I have fought against it vigorously all of my sentient life. Much of what I have fought for does not benefit me in the immediate moment. There's more to life than our personal gain at any one moment, but more important than anything else, there's an ebb and flow to life which dictates what's possible at any one moment.

Plain and simple, this was not the time. Whether we ever get an opportunity to quell the tide of hatred and selfishness within my lifetime is now an open question.

You have not been attacked by me; the concept of attempting to advance a social agendum at a time of extreme conflict has. This was a time to beat back the cumulative weight of fundamentalism and financial power; by sticking our neck out and taking on a new battle at a time when the enemy was focused and vindictive was not wise.

It was the determining factor in this election, and the exit polling is crystal clear: it wasn't the economy, it wasn't Iraq, it wasn't the war on terrorism, it was MORAL VALUES, which is the euphemistic sniveling for hating gays. It was a battle we shouldn't have allowed to be engaged, and it decided the election. Face it. Deal with it. We're in times of darkness and hatred, and it was something that should have been deferred.

I'M ON YOUR SIDE, DAMMIT, but we need to do a proper post-mortem and learn from that.

The future of the world is more and more people fighting for less and less resources as the forces of privilege lock up more power. People will be at each others' throats, and fundamentalism (something that salves the fear of the unknown or known futile) will have more and more sway.

People who hold the world ransom for their pain and marginalization are not all that good neighbors, regardless of the amount of work they do. Those who accept their mistakes and fallibility are your friends.

[Sapphocrat]

119. Three things:

1. I never said heteros on our side had never done anything for us. I am saying that the majority of Dems are on our side in principle, but not in practice. We are wooed (and often merely tolerated) for our votes and our money, but when push comes to shove, we're suddenly the biggest liability to the entire party. Even if you, personally, have marched with us, you are still blaming us. Which brings me to...

2. You are still assuming gay people are responsible for this, by "attempting to advance a social agendum at a time of extreme conflict." One more time: We, as a community, were not attempting to advance same-sex marriage. The Gay Cabal did not send out a directive to act en masse at the worst possible moment in history. And we, as individuals, are generally not so stupid and shortsighted on our own.

I just don't understand how anyone can believe we caused this. What possible benefit could we have gained? Choosing this moment to advance same-sex marriage would make about as much sense as Rosa Parks waltzing into a KKK meeting to demand an end to segregation.

We did NOT choose this battle at this time. It was forced down our throats by the Right.

And again, I ask: What were we supposed to do? Perhaps I should re-phrase my original question this way: Do you really expect us not to react when we're suddenly blindsided by an all-out war on a right we weren't even actively fighting for?

I bet you have no idea what I was fighting for when this shit hit the fan. I was headfirst into working for the passage of the Permanent Partners Immigration Act. My partner and I educated countless heteros who had no idea that there was even a need for such a thing. We shared resources with some of the biggest LGBT-rights organization in the country. We kept in contact with Jerry Nadler's office. We wrote articles. We spent countless hours composing replies to scared, desperate couples for whom the deportation clock was ticking down.

And we talked dozens of couples out of breaking the law and going underground, or engaging in marriages of convenience -- because we believed in not only the letter, but the spirit of the law. Stupidly, perhaps, we believed that a steady, methodical process of working within the confines of the law would reward us with some level of protection.

We also begged DUers, more times than I can count, to write to their representatives and urge them to co-sign the PPIA (which has been languishing in the House for more than four years now, due to lack of signatures). You know how many DUers answered that call? Perhaps a few did and forgot to tell us... but in the end, only a dozen or so let us know they had actually done it.

In any case -- and despite vast indifference to our cause (if you want to talk about a minority within a minority, binational couples in the U.S. number a mere 300,000 or so) -- we were content to take baby steps.

And then it appeared for one brief, glorious moment that marriage could become a reality in our lifetime. Until that moment, my partner and I never actually believed we could ever be legally married in this country -- I don't think we even entertained the idea in conversation. We were overjoyed by the idea of state-sanctioned civil unions in Vermont, but we knew the best we could ever hope for was the PPIA. We would have been grateful to simply be allowed to live together. That's a far cry from being some sort of radicals advancing a marriage agenda.

Try to understand this: We were not the ones on the offense -- we were on the DEFENSE. We didn't start this, and I cannot possibly understand how anyone could ever expect us to just take it.

You may (and I expect you do) fault the gay couples who lined up to get married in San Francisco, and Multnomah County, and New Paltz. Go ahead and question their judgment -- even I do. In fact, my partner and I spent all of two minutes seriously discussing the idea of flying her across the Pacific just long enough for us to be married too -- before realizing the long-ranging political implications of such an act.

Is that not, in your eyes, a sacrifice for the good of the whole?

Nevertheless, those 3,000+ couples who did get married are not going to get blasted by me. Not only do I share their deep desire for civil legitimacy, but I understand all too well why a starving man will dive into the gutter for a crumb. Their actions may not have been the wisest move, but when you spend every day of your existence looking for even the smallest crumb, that's when blind, desperate hope overcomes all wisdom.

Those couples were not self-serving -- they were desperate.

3. I hold no one but the homophobes "ransom for my pain and marginalization." I have made countless mistakes in my life, but I did not take a single misstep that in any way endangered this campaign. Even my railing against the idea of being relegated to second-class status was confined to DU, and to my own private, all-gay message board.

God, I'm not that stupid to set myself up like that in the real world. I know the price of alienating borderline bigots. I know I could have easily cost Kerry more than a few votes.

I'm sorry if you think that my beliefs make me a bad neighbor, and cancel out my work for the party.

One more thing: "Plain and simple, this was not the time." It's never the time. It's always "after the next election."

Well, it's now after the election, again. Is it time yet? We just got our asses kicked, across the board -- what do we have to lose now?

Ten to one, somebody, very soon, is going to tell me, "No, not yet. Just wait until after we win the House and Senate back in 2006."

Believe me, I've done the "it's not time" dance with so many people, I can write their oposing posts for them.

[PurityOfEssence]

123. perspective is everything

"trusting" that there will be a time when the phalanx of the "accepted" will allow you to exist is a losing proposition. You're right. In every sense of ethical morality, you're right. Even in many tactical realpolitik senses, you're right.

We're fucked now, and we've been fucked since the early eighties. Clinton could have fought back, but he thought he could get conciliation from the forces of darkness; sadly, he's more concerned with viability, even today, than with the ascendancy of a moral re-ordering of things.

Yes, it was forced upon you, and yes, it's easy from this armchair to say you shouldn't have taken up the banner of the moment. Still, to argue that this bent wasn't one that would incur a backlash from the thoughtless and fear-driven forces of darkness is one of denial. Having seen the hatred of gays that exists in this society, to think that this wouldn't be a rallying point for a very astute and evil enemy is either willing disregard of the obvious or recklessness.\

Let's be realistic: things are MUCH better for gays than they were, and over the broad sweep of time are undeniably getting better. It will take a very long time for things to even out, and even that's a bit dicy to predict, but over time, things are improving.

Arguing when one should fight and when one should conserve ammunition is much easier when it isn't one's homeland or when it's in hindsight, but it doesn't take a genius to see that these are dangerous and close-run times. In times like these, one fights what one can win.

Does that help any?

I guarantee you that acceptance (or toleration) of gays will happen to a much greater degree and sooner than that of non-believers will. On this I may well be wrong, but the point remains: whose pain matters most, and whose responsibility is it to rein in one's fellows?

[noiretextatique]

124. great post...i disagree

:D with just the last part. what's happened is that *some iof us* have been asked to make more than our share of sacrifices for the team, while the team has been off courting *some other people* who are least sympathetic to our issues. in doing so, the team has used some of us as scapegoats to attract some others.
if this continues to happen, some of us maybe looking for another team.

[PurityOfEssence]

150. Is it a sacrifice to not ask for an improvement in status?

Admittedly, it's impossible to truly understand the plight of those who are continuously stomped upon, but in a time when all are losing their rights and prospects, is it time to ask for an improvement of one's situation? Yeah, easy for me to say, hated as I am as an irreligious nuisance, I'm still white, heterosexual and blessed with a lover and a family.

Still, at a time when we're all seeing our little world chipped away, is it time to try to make gains?

The reality of the situation is that it was a set of circumstances that arose, not a deliberate plan of selfishness; I fully understand what a joy it must be to see one's hopes materialize out of seemingly nowhere, but to grab the standard and advance isn't necessarily the best plan in such instances.

There was much recrimination against both Edwards and Kerry during the primary season for distancing themselves from "marriage", even as they volunteered support for partnership rights. Ironically, one of the more vocal people hammered more on Edwards than on Kerry, but that's grist for another conversation. How to deal with the tide of modernity is a tough call at any time, and it hurt us here.

They played us like a fine instrument. I'm arrogantly pissed because I was certain of this from the very beginning, was vocal and unequivocal about it, and I was right. It sucks, it's mean, but it's obvious. Pardon me while I scream in frustration about how fucking selfishly correct I was, but I was.

We all hurt now, and we all deserve to. Trying to "out-pain" each other is just an expression of selfishness, but in times of defeat and sorrow, it's understandable.

Sleep well with the knowledge that they won a victory of hate, and the evidence is very clear. For this, they must and will pay.

[noiretextatique]

166. when is the right time to be a full citizen? eom

[PurityOfEssence]

178. times of control

You don't ask the boss for a raise when she's fighting horrible cash flow just to keep the company afloat.

Sorry to use a damned business analogy, but it seemed to fit.

Over the last few decades, gays have made incredible strides toward acceptance, and barring complete theocratic takeover, time is on your side. The cat is out of the bag, and as more and more people actually know them, non-heteros gain more and more rights and the place they deserve: full and undiluted equality.

There were many issues in play this election, but this was a big one. Perhaps it's better to lose on principle and come back after they've shown themselves to be the maniacs they are, but to not accept some responsibility is to claim privilege. By cold, rational analysis, it was a HUGE issue. Coming, as it did, from the courts, it's hard to say that anything could have been done about it. It's hard to imagine an organized effort to convince people not to flood San Francisco and other places as they started to grant marriage licenses; not hard to imagine on an emotional level, hard to imagine in terms of sheer organization.

Believe me, I'm aware that I cost the cause to a great degree myself; although I shut up about it a lot, I'm deeply anti-religious and an agnostic who fears religious encroachment into life. Having said that, though, I try to dissuade people from bringing up the pledge; it's an issue that can only hurt us, regardless of how correct it is.

What I prize above anything else is sober, empirical reality. The Gay Marriage issue was quoted as the NUMBER ONE ISSUE for Bush voters. We suck as a human race, but that's all been amply displayed before; not seeing it is a failing.

At least you have realistic hopes of seeing your persecution diminish; I don't. There's gonna be so much godcrap shoved down our throats that it'll make our heads swim.

Surely this must make some sense.

[mondo joe]

179. You mean like when the Dems were in control and did...nothing?

It's ALWAYS too risky to make progress, according to some.

[noiretextatique]

183. no, it really doesn't

what makes more sense to me is for our leaders to stay true to their stated values, and to speak out against those who seek to control. religious zealots ARE a problem...you are not a troublemaker for telling the truth. personally, i think gavin newsome is an opportunist, and i think he did inflame the situation. however, after my friends got married in sf, we all met to celebrate...i never knew something so simple as a marriage license could mean so much. and really...who should care? what difference does it make in anyone's life, except theirs? the answer is: none. i say telling the truth makes a lot more sense than continuing to concede ground to bigots and arrogant religionists.
and most importantly: triangulation doesn't work.

the rw has worked diligently to pander to the basest instincts of some. and our side cannot continue to "agree" with them AND expect to maintain the support of those who are the targets of the rw.
i agree that a better strategy is needed now. how about our party standing up for its constiuents, and its loyal base? how about our party saying: ENOUGH ALREADY!!!! it's not OK to disenfranchise black people anymore...it's not acceptable, and we will not tolerate it. instead of...well, it's not right, but we don't want to make a stink that may turn off bigoted voters who could possibly vote for us, but never, ever do.
how about saying: gay marriage is an issue that is not relevant to you, unless you are marrying a gay person?
forget the rw religionists and bigots...they are a lost cause.
it's time to get the majority on our team:
those who aren't voting at all. i don't think we can entice them by simply waiting for a better time to tll the truth.

[PurityOfEssence]

186. that would have been a different campaign

and not necessarily the wrong one, either.

There's nothing you say that I disagree with except the issue of timing. This, whether we like it or not, was a "common-ground" campaign, rather than a radical groundswell of significant change. Perhaps we should have run the latter, but we didn't.

These people are filled with hatred, greed and fear that their tidy world is slipping away. They're right, it is.

It's wrong for anyone to blame gays for this fiasco, but this was the determining factor, and to dismiss that is either self-deception or some kind of faith-based whistling in the woods against overwhelming evidence. After the cat was out of the bag, I don't see any real practical way gays could have delayed this even if they wanted to; there are far more than the mainstream would like to admit, and it's not a consolidated and orderly bloc. We got played on this bigtime; it was a creature of the moment that was seized upon tenaciously by the forces of ugliness.

Life is not like the movies; it's incremental and decided on the margins. How much damage was done by the many firebrands who slagged Kerry and Edwards for not backing gay marriage? If you say none, you're playing to the cheap seats.

Unfortunately, as life gets more complex and quickly changing, with more and more people vying for less and less resources, we face a dark age of reactionary backlash; if the component of religion remains unchecked, then we're in serious trouble.

Just fucking face it: every one of us who typify anything that the forces of hate-filled certainty have targeted are somewhat responsible for this disaster. Those of us who try to put a lid on their objectionable agendas at times of stress and elections get a little icky on the subject of demands of complete absolution from people who bear some responsibility. I admit my guilt; I wish others would too.

It's tough being marginalized and effectively being fair game for the haters in the world, but putting all emotion and concepts of moral fairness aside, causality is what it is.

I'm sorry if some assholes have blamed gays for this very dangerous defeat; I do not, but I also don't want reality to be shunted aside out of pride or political correctness or something like that.

I would say that religious people on the left and those who mollycoddle hatred and parochialism because religion is so "good" are more at fault in this election than gays are. Having said that, though, I feel great spiritual kinship with the good believers who are deeply hurt at having their religion perverted at the hands of primitives. I'm not much in the mood for pointing fingers, and I don't have much regard now for those who are; this cuts both ways. Sober analysis is our friend, and few of us are capable of that at the moment.

Thanks for your time and care in engaging in this with a sincere attempt to understand.

[noiretextatique]

188. they rigged the vote...

and that's the real truth. and if that had not happened, we would not be having this particular conversation right now.
i don't really disagree with your analysis...except if we don't believe in the rightness of our position, who will?
of course we have to be realistic...the climate of hate in this country will not allow for gay marriage anytime soon. but that doesn't mean we can't keep saying: it's really none of your business, unless you are marrying a gay person: why do you care?
it seems more of us supported that position in this election, which tells me there is no reason to retreat.
republicans understand something our side deosn't seem to grasp:
reality is what you say it is. it helps that they have the media to parrot everything they say as gospel, and it certainly hurts our side. we have been told that the country is so conservative and religious, blah, blah, blah. but a deeper analysis finds that people are afraid, as you mention, and republicans play to that fear...with fear. if we don't figure out who to address that fear with something as powerful as fear, we will never win those folks over.
but we won, nonetheless :D
thanks for the conversation.

[noiretextatique]

180. some people are suffering more than others

and i certainly don't include all gay people among those suffering, beacuse some are doing quite well, comparatvely speaking.
here's all i am saying: conceding ground to bigots is A PART OF THE PROBLEM, not a part of the solution. that strategy isn't working, hasn't worked and won't work. it's doesn't work with people of color, it doesn't work with women, it doesn't work with the poor, and it doesn't work with gays and lesbians...it simply doesn't work.
and since i am black, female, and gay...i'm pretty fucking sick of being asked to take yet another one for the team.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

148. My freind, WE DIDN'T BRING IT UP the courts did..the timing

of the Boston case had nothing, zip, zero, nada to do with the elections. It had to do with how the case wound its way. WHen the case was decided the issue arose. Nobody TIMED it and what Democrats were called to do was stand for the right thing - EQUAL PROTECTION UNDER THE LAW. That is NEVER a bad issue...it's one of our party's CORE issues and it's THREATENED.

That is the first manner in which false cause is assigned to us losing.

Did it HAVE something to do with the election? Sure. It energized hatred. We can stipulate to that.

Should we EVER abandon the principle of equal rights in the face of hatred simply as a political tool in order to survive and win?

Emphatically, no. If anything, gay people underscored that the dangers of George Bush extend not only to haphazard fiscal, defense and economic policies but to constitutional amendments to LIMIT rights the rights of a class of people. Who's next?

[Inland]

190. Timing, presentation, all ad hoc and convincing nobody

Not only was the timing ad hoc, but there never was a coherent voice framing the issues in a way that did not cause alarm and mobilization, not to say articulating a consistent vision.

First, the issue appears when judges rule that a state constitution requires something that nobody has ever seen in this country, anywhere, there is by definition no political consensus. Since politics gets the last word, as in statewide constitutional changes, that is leading with one's chin. Why didn't proponents get in front of this issue BEFORE the ruling to build a case, political, for gay marriage

Second, nobody ever addressed the fear of conservative or rural states that they would not have to allow married gay couples moving from Massachusetts to live as legally married under their law. Orrin Hatch proposed a constitutional amendment prohibiting just that, as opposed to Bush's amendment banning all gay marriages. We could have taken the fear out of the sails of people who, like Hatch, don't give a crap as long as its not in their line of vision. Instead, Bush is going to reintroduce his amendment.

Third, a lot of the argument is put in terms of tax breaks and goodies in the law for married people. While part of an equal protection argument, that simply offended married people and made it seem that maybe gays didn't understand marriage after all: anyone who is thinking of tax breaks as an argument for extending marriage probably shouldn't be talking about it. What the gays failed to address is the premise of the equal protection argument: that gay couples are similarly situated and therefore deserve equal treatment under the law. And relatedly:

Fourth, nobody bothered to prove they are similarly situated. And I have a great deal to say how that can be demonstrated to the electorate, but nobody cares to hear it, because it can't be done by the next election cycle, and because gays feel that they shouldn't HAVE to prove it.

[Orangepeel]

89. I think those issues cost us. That doesn't mean we should abandon them

Two different things.

I do think that one of the main reasons we lost is because the republicans effectly used abortion and gay marriage to turn out the fundie base. They also used those issues to make ignorant non- fundies think that bush is more "moral" than Kerry.

It is a problem that we have to deal with, kind of like the party had to live with losing dixiecrats when it supported civil rights for Blacks. As in that case, it wouldn't be the right thing to do to abandon those issues, but we do have to find a way to win when they are being used as wedges.

We either have to find a way to distract ignorant people from those issues so they aren't voting on them and/or educate them so they don't believe that forcing your religious beliefs on others to deny them rights over their own bodies/family structure is "moral."

[Skittles]

92. I couldn't be proud of my party

if they caved in to homophobic hysteria. No way.

[Ladyhawk]

94. Then they can kiss my hetero ass.

Fuck them.

[NAO]

95. I'm straight and I think homophobes and religious people in general

cost the election. Gay people have every right to be who they are. Bigotry and hatred cost us the election, not the innocent targets of the bigotry and hatred.

[sangh0]

97. What about us straights that DO NOT think gays cost us the elction?

Can we kiss your ass? Bigots shouldn't get to have all the fun.

[chiburb]

102. Exactly! She should be rewarding friends and supporters

instead of "them"...

What the hell are you thinking, NSMA?

:9

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

149. OK you and Sangho can both kiss my ass

;-)

[sangh0]

193. Both of us?

Is it big enough?

[inmania]

98. either everyone is equal or no one is

why can't people get this one through their heads? If I see another "gay marriage cost us the election" thread, I'm going to puke.

[itcfish1]

99. Gays Did Not Cost Us

the election, the ignorant people and the Right Wing media cost us the election. Until we get the Fair Media Doctrine again, there will never be a true democracy in the United States.

:dem:

[leftofthedial]

103. can those of us who don't feel gays cost the party line up too?

:-)

I believe unqualifiedly in equal civil liberties, rights an dpriveleges for ALL people.

(except maybe Rush Limbaugh)

[Jax]

106. There you go again nsma...

Being rock solid and right on. :thumbsup:

Paul and I are right there with you all the way. Completely agree. We will never compromise on equal protection under the law for all.

Never.

Alyce

[Warren DeMontague]

109. Standing With You On Civil Rights

Reproductive Choice, Too.

Separation of Church and State also.

These items are non-negotiable for me, as are basic issues of civil liberties, privacy rights, and freedom from censorship.

If certain backwards ass citizens of this country aren't ready for it, too bad. I do NOT believe in pandering. I would rather be part of a minority party concentrated in Urban Areas and on the Coasts than sell out.

[Anakin Skywalker]

110. I Stand WITH You!

I do not know who's been saying that gays cost the party's victory, as I have not seen it here at DU. Are you hearing this as taunts or propaganda from rightwing jerks? If there are any "liberals" who are saying this at all, then I don't think they are true liberals.

[northernsoul]

111. straight, white guy here - I've got your back

I'll never back off of standing up for basic human rights in the name of political expediency.

[blondeatlast]

112. Amen, amen.

Less than 48 hours after the election and we're ready to turn our backs on at least 25% of our base.

Latinos didn't vote for us either, shall we turn our backs on them, too?

[DemOperative]

115. WE all Know it was NOT gays

It was fear of them, and the pandering to that.
I still don't understand "how" a gay marriage threatens "the family"

But the religious right seems to. I wish they would explain this.

[MidwestMomma]

116. Even if that was true, it wouldn't change my support for GLBT rights

I've been saying this alot, but Fuck them all.

Right now, I'm having a hard time caring about any anyone or anything, but I will always support the GLBT community. You all have consistently put yourselves out there on the side for good and I appreciate it.

I just read today the Kansas state legislature picked up a few more conservative seats and one thing they are going to try to do is push for a fuckity, fuck-fuck gay marriage ban amendment. Fuck that.

If and when I start giving a damn again, I will do what I can to fight this.

Take care.

[TheDonkey]

117. Gays and abortion cost us this election... I'm gay

it's clear. Moral values is the code word for bigotry and intolerance.

I'm not blaming gays of our party. I'm proud of Democrats for sticking up for these unpopular issues.

We need to begin to villianize republicans for restircting "individual rights" something they falsely preach.


Edit: This is only because Gay Marriage and Partial Birth were such hot topics. If Affirmative Actoin or the Death Penalty were hot then the thugs would have used them to divide the nation.

[Waverley_Hills_Hiker]

131. I agree..im gay too. We are the scapegoats now...

....I hate to say this, but the Dems took it in the shorts for standing up for us.

[TheDonkey]

162. Yes, the have

the good thing though is we should keep on fighting for them. WE need to change the subjet from gay marriage to civil rights and individual freedom.

Thugs love confusing any issue, now we must do the same.

[indigobusiness]

125. For shame...

[Was_Immer]

129. GAYS and abortion are the death nail to the democratic party

So thanks alot!

Great going, NOW when I go to vote I have this choice:

Joe Schmoe - Republican

THATS IT, no democrats even are running! WHY? The party ended Nov 2nd, 2004

So THANKS ALOT!!!!!!!!!!!

[Liberal Veteran]

130. Nice principles you have there, son.

As long as it's not your ox that gets gored, you could care less about anyone else.

I don't need people who would sell me out for thirty pieces of silver.

[maddezmom]

139. what are you doing the next election cycle....RUN for office

:shrug:

[dsc]

133. Before we go after other people we need to clean our own houses

It is nothing short of a scandal that 23% of LGBT voters and 33% of functionally pro choice voters, including 25% of those who are in favor of abortion being legal in all circumstances, voted for Bush. He lost a mere 2% of LGBT voters and no pro choicers over the course of his four years. Simply disgraceful.

[LynnTheDem]

134. Racists & bigots & "obias" PLEASE LEAVE. Everyone else stays.

LIBERTY & FREEDOM. FOR ALL.

[maddezmom]

135. they can kiss my "straight" ass, too

I stand firmly with you, my aunt and her partner and my god father that had to live "in the closet" for fear of losing jobs, family members or their life.

[DARE to HOPE]

141. Hey, everybody, remember Jon Stewart?

Remember around the time of the DNC when they had the group of Democratic voters? Was it Ed Helms that went around collecting them, asking every woman he ran into, "Are you a lesbian?" "Where's our Hispanic?" "Where's our Jew?"

Once he got everyone in the room, he began to ask questions which would set them off: "Hey, Ms. Treehugger, what is Union Man going to think about you not letting them drill in AnWar?"

The punchline was, "How are all these people going to get along at the DNC convention. ONE thing's for sure, NONE of these people will be visible at the RNC AT ALL!!"

HOORAY for us, the true face of America! DON'T buy into the hateful media spin, that "morality" had a darn thing to do with this! How MORAL was it to STEAL OUR VOTES?!!

All this fussing and blaming--is just another distraction. Keep our eye on those BBVs--and THANK YOU, Keith Olbermann for taking on the "mismatched" polls tonight.

[mondo joe]

136. Agreed. It was a poor campaign that lost it - not gays.

Face it, Bush and Kerry had nearly identical stances on gays ANYWAY.

[MrTriumph]

138. Baloney- Bush was very anti-gay, Kerry was seen as pro gay

To Bush and Kerry had similar positions on gays is ridiculous.

[mondo joe]

140. They way they were SEEN is the problem with the CAMPAIGN

Bush and Kerry BOTH said they opposed same sex marriage.

They BOTH said they support civil unions.

What the fuck is the difference?

The PROBLEM is that Kerry let himself be defined in several ways, including pro-gay marriage.

That's a problem with the CAMPAIGN, not the POSITION.

[terrya]

137. Amen, sister. Amen. This gay man agrees with this 100%.

Perfect. Thank you.

[PopSixSquish]

147. They Can Kiss My Ass Too and Twice on Sundays

[robbedvoter]

151. Ha!Ha! One more straight ass for kissing!

The lack of principles of some here disgusts me deeply.
I remember something Clark once said in the campaign: "To resist their attack machine you have to know who you are. I know who I am"
Well me too - and no change in fortunes, real or Rove induced will make me be someone else.

[The River]

153. Amen...Screw The Greater Good

Let's stand on principle and keep the Democratic Party
fractured until they give in to our demands!
Let's not worry about health insurance or social security.
Let's not worry about outsourcing jobs or environmental pollution.
Let's not worry about racism or war.
Don't voters know most important thing in politics is
my egocentric right to do what I want with my genitals?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

154. Excuse me but rights for everyone is the greater good

Again gays did NOT make marriage the issue in the election. A court case did and the timing of that was NOT controlled by the plaintiffs.

In the matter of abortion, yes indeed, screw the greater good. We need more people having unwanted children. That works.

Amazing that you are worried about racism, an issue of equality but don't quite get the through line here.

We didn't put any PRO GAY initiatives on the ballot. They put ANTI-GAY initiatives on the ballot.

Next thing I know you'll tell me it's my fault when I get raped.

Oh...wait...you just did.

[The River]

165. Hey..I'm on your side!

You're the poster who told straight people who blame gays to
Kiss Your Ass. I'm saying Right On!
Being right is a lot more important than being correct.
Gay rights are more important than anything else this
country is facing.

[mitchtv]

191. the cockroaches sure come out after the rain

don't they?

[Triana]

157. They're wrong - the FUNDIES cost the party

and the election. Not women or gays.

[curse10]

158. Gays didn't cost us this election

the morons who bought the bullshit lies georgie boy and company have been telling these last four years cost us the election. Fuck them and fuck anyone that says we should abandon this issue.

[Robeson]

159. I am straight, I am Liberal, and no, I don't want to kiss your...

...ass goodbye. We are all on the same team. I'm in it with you, and I hope you're in it with me. We have a fight just to survive at this point. We're going to need each other more than ever. You are my friend, and lets never forget it.

[NightTrain]

160. I don't think you folks cost us the election.

But can I kiss your ass anyway??? :*

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

163. Sure

[Sugarbleus]

164. I agree!

As I stated in another thread: I will STAND with my GL fellow Americans. I will fight for their rights, security, and freedoms for as long as I live!!

ANYONE'S RIGHTS ABRIDGED?=ALL RIGHTS ABRIDGED!

Hell No! I will NOT abandon my fellow americans just because they happen to be different from me.


That is my ETERNAL PLEDGE!

VIVE LA RESISTANCE'

[TruthIsAll]

167. ANYONE ORDER OUT FOR HERSHEY HWY MOUTHWASH?

KISS

[Hamlette]

168. I could not agree MORE

I'm not gay. I will not give one damned inch, not a fraction of an inch on gay rights. (Ok, I'd settle for civil unions as a step. But I'm not happy about it.)

I guess I've not been reading homophobic posts. If there are any, I say this: if you try to give up on gay rights or abortion, I will join a 3rd party because the dems will have lost their soul.

And I'm the LAST person in the world to leave the dem party. That is probably the only thing that would push me over. (Maybe its because I think they will come after atheists next? Nah. Not that that won't happen. It's simply the right thing to do.)

[foo_bar]

170. great headline, though

[Behind the Aegis]

171. hear, hear!

It has been disgusting here the past few days.

Gay Hell at DU

[Swamp Rat]

172. I am male and I stand with you. Human rights for ALL!!!

I have heard the argument and reject it - it's unAmerican. Plus, the election was STOLEN!!!... probably by white male right wing nutjob eunuchs that have no sex life.

[peekaloo]

176. Bless you. I appreciate your contributions to this board immensely.

:hug:

p.s. You are one righteous sister!

:yourock:

[SarahB]

177. We must stand together.

We must not back down. They won't cave and back down. Neither should we.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=1326883

[indigo32]

189. Right there with ya honey

we did NOT cost the party.

[frustrated_lefty]

192. "We hold these truths to be self-evident:

that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with inherent and inalienable rights; that among these, are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness; that to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed; that whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles, and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness."

Should gays and lesbians or any other demographic be excluded from the democratic party? Not according to the Founding Fathers, nor upon the principles upon which this nation was founded. What is it that people don't understand about the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness?

Personally, I suspect the government has become "destructive to these ends," and it may be time for "the Tree of Liberty" to be refreshed "with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

The very fundament of American politics was designed to insure the safety and happiness of American citizens. Two (or 3 or 20) people trying to bring pleasure to each other doesn't affect my safety or happiness in any way at all. It may or may not affect my COMFORT level. But, be damned, it has NOTHING to do with safety or happiness for me, and much to do with the people participating in those activities. If they aren't hurting anyone, who the hell has the right to prohibit the behavior?

The answer is not to purge the party, the answer is to uphold the sentiments and proclamations which form the basis of the American government. Also, prevent these morally defective chimp supporters from utterly redefining the basis upon which this government was founded.

FL