An Odd Sense Of Acceptance. WARNING: Probably going to piss you off.

[MostlyLurks]

I woke up today feeling much better than yesterday, much more at peace with all this. Have I acceded to the calls for "national unity"? Have I tasted of the Kool-Aid and found it sweet?

Hardly.

I simply came to a startling conclusion somewhere last night as I drifted off to sleep. We were told this was an referendum on the President. Wrong. This was a referendum on the American people, and they made their choice. You've all seen, by now, the polling results that show "moral values" as the overwhelming sentiment in the choice for Bush.

So what does that tell me? It tells me that, when you come right down to it, this country is simply not in my corner. And the past generation bears that out.

Let's be brutally honest here: we (liberals, Democrats, whatever) haven't won an election by majority since 1976 and Jimmy Carter. Clinton never had a majority, only a plurality. Frankly, I don't think Carter would have won if he hadn't been running against the spectre of Nixon. So this means that in the past 36 years, we have legitimately carried the majority sentiment one time out of ten. One time out of ten.

That should come as a hard slap. Thiry-six years. One election out of ten.

It's time to wake up and smell the political coffee: WE ARE OUT OF THE MAINSTREAM. The 'Pubs have been telling us this for years and we constantly scoffed and said they were wrong. But it turns out they were right: they weren't trying to job us with political rhetoric, they were trying to help us understand what was happening.

Now, you may steel yourself by saying "Well, we got 50+ million people to vote on our side". But step back from that for a moment. That 50+ million was marshalled in an unprecedented "Get Out The Vote" effort. Millions of doors were knocked on, millions of calls made, millions of dollars spent. A massive effort, a political D-Day as it were - an all or nothing gambit designed to capture the beach and sweep into Washington, putting Conservatives on the run.

And we still got beat, and beat bad. We didn't just see a referendum at the Presidential level this week. We saw it right down to the roots, with the sweeping losses in both parts of Congress, as well as the unanimous adoption of "Defense of Marriage" acts. Put simply, we're not the majority here, not now, not for the past generation or more. Our views are not those of the country - regardless of the yardstick you use. Even those seats we did gain tended toward the moderate end of the Democratic spectrum. And we lost to clear loons like Coburn and Bunning.

How does all this put me a peace? Well, I keep coming back to that "36 years" figure. That's the entire span of my life, plus a few years. This means that for the duration of my existence on this sphere, I have been on the outside looking in, with the tide steadily rising against me.

The mainstream of this country does not support equality for all, secularism, public assistance, environmentalism, etc. Nor do they abhor the things I do. I do not represent this country. It isn't mine, and never was. Perhaps that's a defeatist attitude, but I find it hard to fight for something that firstly isn’t mine to start with and secondly that has no intersection with my personal values.

And that's when peace and acceptance washed over me. There is nothing here for me to fight for because the country I thought I lived in has utterly and completely, at virtually every conceivable turn, rejected my beliefs wholesale.

I would imagine it's the same sense of acceptance a "guest worker" feels. I'm in this country mainly for a job. If I had the wherewithal to go someplace else, I probably would.

I am stranger in this land, and frankly I don't, any longer, hold its tenets close to my heart. I mean here not the tenets of the foundations of this country - The Declaration of Independence, The Constitution, The Bill of Rights - but the tenets of the electorate. Because in the end, the electorate makes, remakes, is remaking, the country in its own image. All countries are portraits of their people. The portrait of America for the past three decades or more has basically looked the same. And I have never been in that portrait.

I am free and at peace now with America, because I am absolved of responsibility for it. As it has shut my voice out, I now can shut it out. Its failures and missteps, its foibles and stupidity, none are now my own.

Now peace, as I cut America out of my heart, as America had already cut me out of its.

[UdoKier]

1. That doesn't piss me off. It saddens me.

Especially because I have no argument for it.

[blurp]

68. Return to Federalism

Go back to Federalism and limited national government.

Seriously, if they didn't have so much power, why would you really care that much?

Make you city or town a better place and be proud of that. If the rest of the nation screws up, you shouldn't have to care that much.

[smb]

76. Yep

Go back to Federalism and limited national government.

Seriously, if they didn't have so much power, why would you really care that much?

Make you city or town a better place and be proud of that. If the rest of the nation screws up, you shouldn't have to care that much.

The bottom line is that the red states are parasites on the blue states. Get the federal government out of the welfare and subsidy business so that the red-staters actually have to live by their anti-big-government rhetoric, and let the Pubbies explain why their state taxes went up more than their federal taxes went down, why their phone bill doubled, why their water bill tripled, etc.

[Catt03]

79. I kind of agree with you.

They are parasites on the blue states, and are not in control of the country.

But with the Republicans in control, those pork amendments in every bill can take care of that. And watch them punish the blue states for their votes....just like they punish California and supported Florida.

I hope they go about setting their agenda and that is it so far right that the whole damn country falls apart. It can't be fixed until it is in excruciating pain.

[gavodotcom]

107. I think that's the Bush and conservative goal.

It was the long-term goal of the conservative movement.

And I think it's the number one rationale for 90% of Bush's policies.

Fuck the country up so much; fuck up social security, fuck up medicare, fuck up education, fuck up environmental regulations, fuck up diplomatic relations, fuck up absolutely EVERYTHING that liberals have worked so hard to establish, nuture, and cultivate.

Fuck it up so badly it can't be fixed by anybody.

And then you have a small, limited Federal government.

States Rights win.

It was a Confederate coup 150 years in the making.

[Sliverofhope]

114. And privatize everything

Don't forget that

[arewenotdemo]

132. interesting idea

[Mizmoon]

2. Move to New York

We're just to the right of Che.

[a new day]

91. Even NY is not particularly liberal by Eurpean standards n/t

[trogdor]

153. Especially upstate.

We have oases of what might be mistaken for liberalism after a couple of stiff drinks, like Clinton, home of Hamilton College. I'm afraid, though, that most of Clinton's liberals are imported from downstate. Most of the locals are conservative to varying degrees, and the further you get from a city center, the closer to Alabama you get, except it snows like no-one's business here. Yes, we have our share of yahoos up here, and they live in places like Camden, and Annsville, and Western, and Taberg, and go to churches with the most bigoted, hateful, un-Jesus-like slogans on the marquee in the front yard, drive rusted-out pickup-trucks with a faded "Charlton Heston Is My President" or "Hillary NO!" sticker on the tailgate, and go snowmobiling through people's cow pastures in the wintertime. If there was enough sun up here to make them so, they would be like rednecks anywhere in Dixie.

The only reason New York is blue is because of that great, shining city at the southeastern end of the state where Yankees usually win, the Jets usually come across from Jersey to take in a Broadway show after the game, and the Republicans still come in the mild variety. Their votes usually (but not always) drown those from upstate by a margin of 2:1, even when Hillary Clinton is on the ballot.

But come upstate anyway. It's nice in the fall when the leaves change, the summers are just the right amount of warm (usually), and we have the best pizza in the world.

[sir_arms_50]

3. good post...

:-(

[LTR]

4. There's a saying, "We get the president we deserve"

Meaning we don't deserve much.

I do believe Bush got more of the popular vote, because I think people as a whole are gullible, naive and are easily swayed. DUers have gotten nasty toward posters who use the term 'sheeple', but I can't think of a better term for it.

The next step? How to really connect with the sheeple. Gotta be a way to get through their thick skulls and soft brains.

[Catfight]

5. I applaud this post! My feelings exactly, the only solace is, you are not

alone in that feeling, I feel and see it the same. I have also cut out of my heart compassion for people who don't have compassion for the minority. I say, fuck them too. Swimming against the tide leads to nothing but exhaustion and eventually, the tide always wins. There's nothing to live for and nothing to die for.

[Phillycat]

6. I feel exactly the same way. Exactly.

Except I am leaving.

[Nimrod]

8. I will if I can

This post captured my feelings frighteningly well. Better than I could have voiced them myself I think.

Plans are now being laid for be to be an official NON-American by 2006. Whether those plans will come to fruition, we shall see. But they are plans nonetheless. I will always have a soft spot in my heart for the America that should have been. The America that is does not embrace me, nor I it.

[Phillycat]

11. Amen.

"The America that should have been". It's enough to make me weep.

[BeFree]

7. Hah

The nazi's have you right where they want you. Groveling and pleading for mercy, defeated and dis-spirited.

Get off your damned knees, stand and fight, at least use your talents in a way that is progressive and not mere white flag waving.

[MostlyLurks]

10. Told you it would piss you off. n/t

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Phillycat]

13. Fight for what?

Ever consider the fact that YOU are the one who is operating under a false illusion?

[BeFree]

21. What a stupid question

"Fight for what"

Geez, Democracy, my rights, your rights, the environment, my peace of mind, are just a few of the things I fight for.

If those are false illusions then we have nothing to discuss, eh?

[Phillycat]

26. You are right. We have nothing to discuss.

What you are fighting for doesn't exist anymore.

[ieoeja]

32. Lots of things didn't exist ...

... before someone fought to create them. Or in this case, resurrect.

[Phillycat]

37. Why would you fight against the majority?

I'm not in the habit of trying to change other people's ideological beliefs. Therefore, I don't belong here anymore.

[ieoeja]

39. In that case you are correct.

You do not belong here anymore.

[Phillycat]

42. How often have we derided Christians for trying to force their beliefs

down our throats?

Why would we do the same? Now we are the ones knocking on their doors, prosthelitizing.

[ieoeja]

56. How am I trying to "force" my beliefs on someone else?

We're talking about trying to "convince" them to change.

Actually, I don't even think that is the issue. When I talk to rightwing Republicans one-on-one, they are always amazed to discover just how much I have in common with them. We do find issues on which we disagree. But those are far outnumbered by the issues where we do agree.

Inevitably they end up arguing "but most liberals would disagree" to which I reply "you're wrong, the problem is that you keep letting the political enemies of we liberals tell you what we liberals want instead of listening to us tell you what we want".

What makes my argument so damned difficult is that, when prominent liberal DO agree, they almost always fail to point out that it is, in fact, a liberal value they are supporting. "If it were mainstream liberalism," my friends argue, "why wouldn't the liberal politicans say so?"

I have no answer to that except for their fear of the manner in which the word "liberal" has been demonized.

So I am less interested in bringing them around to my ideology than I am in making them realize that they are compromising on the wrong issues because they think we liberals oppose them on so many issues where we do not.

[arewenotdemo]

133. maybe we need to ask our ideological ancestors

whether the fight was worth it.

Read Martin Luther King, Charles Hamilton Houston or Susan B. Anthony.

We need perspective, here and now.

[BeFree]

34. Not for you, eh?

So, you are a slave then. A willing and docile slave. Goodbye.

[Name removed]

36. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

48. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Phillycat]

51. I think you deserve it, I think I deserve it. My family, your family.

Did we think about the 95% of Afghanistan that DIDN'T attack us when we were raining bombs down on them? No. We thought about the handful of guys who rammed planes into our buildings. Why should the rest of the world think about the 49% who said no to the Bush agenda? They shouldn't. And I don't blame them for a second.

I am not a moron, I am a fighter. But I know when I'm outnumbered and I know when it's time to cut my losses and go. I'm taking your post as a "best wishes" for me to leave this country the sooner the better. On that we agree.

[really-looney]

58. I just don't understand you

I hope that there is no more loss of life in Afghanistan, I hope there is no more life in Iraq and I hope there is no more loss of life here in America.

You hope there is loss of life here due to the loss of life there I fail to see the logic in that. That seems to be how we got in this mess in the first place.

Take your family and run, that is probably the best thing a "fighter" like you can do for us right now.

Please don't wish death on my family as we can't just run. We will stay, we will fight and in the long run we will prevail.

[Phillycat]

60. I don't have a family. I am lucky in that respect.

I can't imagine having to look into my children's faces and try to explain to them that somehow, the majority of people in America, where I've chosen to raise them, would like to put dog tags around their neck and send them off to the desert to die as soon as possible.

I don't envy you having to make choices like that for your family. I don't envy you trying to figure out how to protect them under this fascist regime. I am leaving because more people believe the way they do than believe the way we do. I think that is a sickness, a disease of ideology that cannot be overcome.

To me, nihilism is realistic. I think the truest thing you said was that you don't understand me. I don't understand you either.

[RadioFlyer]

72. How can you possibly wish...

...for a terrorist attack? I guess after you leave would be more convenient for you, huh? (yes, I'm being sarcastic.)

You're no better than those you claim to despise. I do have family. Many of us do, and you know that. How despicable for you to wish that on us. Do you think Paul Wellstone would agree with you?

I grew up a liberal, and am ashamed that you would call yourself that. Or maybe you didn't. Nihilism suits you. Just leave the rest of us out of it.

(Edit for misspelling while angry)

[Phillycat]

80. Doesn't matter to me, before or after.

I have cut my entire belief system out of my heart. How much do you think is left of me to live for?

I have been a liberal my whole life. I believed so strongly that I cried, screamed, shouted, worked, worked, worked, worked for what I believed in. Escorted at PP, went to all the marches, all the protests, phonebanked, canvassed, gave money I didn't have. Philadelphia turned out in unprecedented droves to say NO to the Bush agenda.

It's over. I have no country. I have no government. I have no president. There is nothing left to believe in.

[RadioFlyer]

84. Then I feel sorry for you.

Damn. The glass isn't just half-empty for you - it's bone dry!

[Comadreja]

165. America under Bush reminds me of a text from Revelation

"Get out of her my people, if you do not want to share inhersins, for they have mountrd clear up to the heavens. The UShas become so blatantly wicked in its foreign policy that retribution is certain, but not from God.

[Name removed]

74. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Phillycat]

78. I know what it is. It brings death, destruction, and misery.

Exactly what this country deserves.

[RadioFlyer]

85. You Know I Actually Felt Sorry For You

>> "I know what it is. It brings death, destruction, and misery."
Exactly what this country deserves. <<

I'm done with you.

[Phillycat]

87. You shouldn't.

I don't feel sorry for you. I don't even mourn for the human race. It's over.

[RadioFlyer]

88. Well, that's good.

I don't want anyone to feel sorry for me.

So, Sunshine, maybe you could try Portugal. They have that great, really depressing fada music that you could wallow in.

I think the human race will be just fine. We're better than what you think, and people often get what they expect.

I've gotta get back to work.

[Phillycat]

90. "People often get what they expect."

People often get what they deserve, has been my experience.

I am sorry to be depressing. I was a truly cheerful person before Tuesday. Everything I believed in is gone. I look forward to death. If I wasn't a coward I would take that option.

[RadioFlyer]

92. "Everything I believed in is gone"

>>"I look forward to death."<<

I'm feeling a couple of different things here. First, and honestly, anger and shock at your expressed wishes for many more people than you to suffer further at the hands of terrorists.

And secondly, if you truly are that depressed, I sincerely ask that you find someone, something, somewhere to help lift you out. Just for today. I've been there, and it's awful. But looking back, it doesn't seem as big now as it did them. As I'm sure you know, suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary - yes, temporary - problem.

Just hang on, okay?

[Phillycat]

93. I am sorry about what I said earlier.

I am glad the posts were deleted.

How can I wish for death for me or anyone else when I've spent so long working for life and peace?

Conversely, how can this country vote and believe so strongly in hatred and bigotry when I've spent so long working for tolerance and kindness?

What the fuck? Can you explain it to me? How can I ever believe in anything again?

[Jose Diablo]

99. You are not wrong in believing in what you believe

"I've spent so long working for tolerance and kindness?"

These are excellent goals, I for one will be sorry if you leave, but I will understand.

But consider this. Did this country "believe so strongly in hatred and bigotry"? It was a close election.

Also, of those that did vote Bush, did we as a party, use the right methods to reach those that really should have sided with us?

We should question our failures these past 36 years to reach those that really should be with us.

It is not them, the failure is ours if they are not convinced of the 'rightness' of what we believe. Maybe something is wrong with how we are trying to convince them?

They are not bad people. They are pretty close to us, overall. At least closer than Europe is.

Why don't we concentrate on a solution. "What have we been doing wrong"? We know we what we believe is right, why have we been unable to convince them of this?

I hope you will reconsider your decision to leave. You are very valuable to the rest of us. We need you here with us to help in the battle.

Stick around, we will win. We just need to examine our strategy and figure out what we are doing wrong.

[RadioFlyer]

102. Thank you.

I just hate to see someone - even if I don't know you personally - to even think about throwing out the gift that is our lives. No political aspects here. Just humanity.

Three people that I know took their own lives - not people I knew *really* well, but well enough to really be shaken. Chemical imbalance in two, financial difficulties in one.

[MostlyLurks]

14. How's the "fight" going?

So what are you doing? Aside from posting on a web site, that is. What's your plan? More handwringing about vote theft? More "Freeway blogging"? Rally me to your cause.

[BeFree]

19. The fight

Has been going on for years, but yesterday I spent most of the day at my county offices talking to anyone about the damned BBV machines. I said, in no uncertain terms, that those machines would never be used again.

I am looking into heading to OHIO. I remember what happened in Miami 2000, and expect to see the same damn thing in Ohio this year. This time I'd like to fuck them up and stop them from keeping the vote counted.

Ya know, if you need rallying, I'm not your ticket. You need to decide for yourself that Democracy is worth fighting for and find a way to fight that is comfortable for you. That's what I've done and it has taken many a year getting comfortable enough to get in the faces of the opposition. All I can tell you is: Fear is the only thing to fear.

[MostlyLurks]

29. I'm not afraid.

This has nothing to do with fear. I am utterly fearless re: this administration. Whatever they do, I'm a survivor and I'll come through it. But I'm done feeling like the problems we create in this world are on my shoulders. It's about realization and revelation.

Fighting for America is like fighting over someone else's lunch. It ain't ours anymore, if it ever was. There's nothing left to fight for. What will you gain back in 2006 or 2008 or 2012? A country gutted of its moral balance, devoid of social justice and hollow in its calls for unity. That's not something I feel is worth fighting for.

How long will it take for you to get the point: this is not about "media lies", this is not about "redneck hillbillies", this is not about "voting against their interests". This is about acceptance of a slate of ideas or rejection of a slate of ideas. And a clear voice has spoken over and over and over: we don't like the "liberal" agenda.

You know, a lot of people (myself included) on DU have had bad experiences with Christians attempting to convert us. Time and again, we're assaulted by the most strident of proselytizers. And invariably, we either think to ourselves or say "What the fuck is it going to take to convince this idiot I'm not buying what he's got for sale?"

And yet here we are, as liberals, with a 36 year track record of rejection, knocking on that front door again and saying to ourselves "This time, we'll get the message right, and this guy's going to buy it". We need to face up to the facts: we're the proselytizers now. We're the guy trying to sell something that the homeowner don't want.

By the way, I'm in OH and there ain't SHIT happening here. It's over.

Edit: Removed redundant sentence.

[ieoeja]

38. Except that most of them LOVE the Liberal agenda.

They just don't like what Limbaugh, et al tell them what the Liberal agenda is. How many times did Kerry stand up, declare himself a proud Liberal, and go on to layout the Liberal agenda? Or 99% of the other Democratic candidates around the country? I continually amaze the Republicans around me by agreeing with them on many issues. But they refuse to believe me when I tell them we are talking about mainstream Liberal views because they never hear any of our elected officials say that, only me. "If it were Liberal, wouldn't {insert name} have said so?"

Well, {insert name} does at campaign fund-raisers. He just fails to say so when campaigning in front of mixed crowds because he is convinced that any use of the word "liberal" will kill his campaign.

[Tomee450]

136. Exactly right

Politicians keep running from the liberal label instead of explaining what a liberal is, what he stands for.

[BeFree]

43. Losing ideas

What if the women who wanted the right to vote had your spirit?

The blacks fighting for civil rights?

Washington, Jefferson, the signers of the declaration?

Maybe the reason nothing is happening in Ohio is because you ain't doing shit. That's it, ain't it? You and all the rest of the willingly complicit.

[m berst]

163. they often did

Befree, I wouldn't start with the quitter and coward stuff - I know you didn't use those words. Despair is completely sane in this situation, and while we look back at the struggles in the past and see the shining moments of courage and victory against great odds, despair over the situations they were in was an important part of the mix and a wellspring from which rebirth and rejuvenation came.

To cheerlead people on to fight, fight, fight can be a good thing. But if it is done at the expense of dismissing and invalidating the deep pain and suffering - and yes despair, fear, and sadness - that people are experiencing, then it is gutted of any true human meaning or relevance.

At what point does cheerleading become just another form of denial and self-delusion?

If things are so bad that we need to fight, then they are also so bad that there will be many people suffering and in despair, as well. You can't have one without the other. Freedom fighters from the past fought with one hand, and gave comfort and solace to those in despair and in suffering with the other. History records the fight in glowing terms and forgets the comforting and empathy that went on behind the fight.

[sendero]

45. Here's the thing you are missing....

... fighting for the weak, the oppressed, the hungry, and injustice are all well and good.

But that is not what the fight is about any more. It is about the apathy, the false morality, and the stupidity of the American public.

I agree with the original poster - I'm done with this. I'm going to work on my own life, I cannot fix this country - it is too far gone and most of the people who are gone don't realize it. Screw 'em.

Yes, I'm pissed.

[BeFree]

47. Fine, quit

May I ask one thing?

Can you at least be a good example?

Also, I guess you will be leaving DU then, eh, since you are crawling into a hole?

[sendero]

61. I might leave...

.. and I might not. And I'm not "crawling into a hole", I'm just not tilting at windmills and expending effort and money into what is, at the present time, a lost cause IMHO.

Let Bush** do what he wants, he's going to anyway and you can't do shit about it. I'm totally convinced that this country is going to have to hit rock bottom (I'm talking economics basically, because all of this boils down to money) like any kool-aid addict -before any healing can begin.

[Phillycat]

64. Yep.

What people on this board don't talk about too often, is the economic collapse that is coming. That is why I'm leaving.

Actually, the only way to save the economy is to vote Republican. There are still too many Democrats in the Senate for the administration to cut the huge programs they'd have to cut to save the economy--Medicare, medicaid, Social Security, public education. So the Dems will try to protect those programs, we keep running into the red, and eventually our creditors will come knocking. THERE IS NO MORE MONEY.

How long will it take for one of those creditors to do or say something that pisses Texas Swagger off? Unilateralism is in his blood, it's what he BELIEVES. He will invade. More war, more loss of life, and more money spent.

The American economy will collapse on itself. It cannot sustain the raping it's received. Stick a fork in it, it's done.

[alarcojon]

130. I'm working locally

I teach at a state school. I saw our students mobilize in larger numbers than ever before. Many of them are still wearing their Kerry/Edwards buttons, days later. They don't want to slink away and give up their country.

We are planning a forum to discuss the election and strategies for moving forward. Students, faculty, community. We cannot lose the energy of youth. You know the repugs are already re-energizing their Bushzi youth. We cannot let ours become dispirited.

If you do not believe it can be done, if you believe it's all pointless, then there is no point in discussing this further. I don't have time for negative energy right now.

You asked a question, and I answered.

[rucky]

139. Speaking of Nazis...

I exist today because my grandparents had the foresight to leave Poland before they started killing Jews.

[GumboYaYa]

9. Ditto!!!!

I am more at peace now than I have been in ten or fifteen years. They got what they wanted. Liberal is a bad word and they control virtually all of the federal government. Have fun boys, cause we ain't here to kick around anymore. Blaming it on Clinton won't carry another term. When it all starts to go to shit, there is no one to blame but yourselves.

[Kid_A]

15. Call me naive, but I really do still have faith in this country.

The great thing about America is that it has always made room for those in the minority. Granted, there have been times in its history when the minority was treated with extreme hostility, but things were always righted in the end. I don't think this time should be any different. I respect the values of those who came out in droves to make Bush's second term his first legitimate one, even though I do not share them. I have loved ones whom I admire deeply, even though I don't share their values, and they feel the same way towards me. While I think their trust in George Bush is genuine, I think it's misguided. Bush is a terrible President, but he is a masterful politician. Somehow he was able to convince good, decent people that the ways of War and Hatred and Death and Fear and Greed are the values extolled in the Bible. As a child I was raised on that same Bible, and nowhere does it say that Love is subjective, or that Violence is the way to Peace. As an adult I have seriously questioned much of what I was taught in Sunday school, but the core values are still there and will always remain the same.

I refuse to give up hope in the American people and the country that I love. Yes, we have made a dangerous misstep into darkness, but the light is still shining, and one day we will begin to move towards it. Have faith in that.

[JCMach1]

18. the light was put out... it would take a revolution to reignite it now

and the jackboots aren't going to allow that,,,, are they?

[southlandshari]

77. Beautiful post

I completely understand - I have many friends and family members who voted for Bush on Tuesday, and I respect them as much today as I did Monday.

I'm not friends with raving right-wing idiots, and have already disowned anyone in my extended family who fits that category. So I know we are kidding ourselves if we try to label every one of the majority of voters in this country who voted to keep Bush in office as idiots, rednecks, blind Bible-thumpers or any other creative, derogatory name in the book.

My father voted for Bush. My father, who is more responsible for my dedication to social justice, peace and equality for all than any other human on this earth. My father is not stupid and he is not a bigot. He had his reasons. Maybe they were misguided, maybe they were as valid as mine were for supporting Kerry. I don't know. What I do know is that he is a man who doesn't do anything blindly, and he thought long and hard about his choice here.

If the far right wing is now pulling the strings in the Republican party (and I think they are), is the best response we've got to drive our party to the other extreme? Fill ourselves with hate for "them", adopt strategies based on dirty tricks because we think that is the only way to "win"? Insist on fighting these traitors on their own terms by refusing to budge an inch on issues (call them what you want - moral, cultural, social...) on which it has become obvious we do not hold the majority view (like abortion and gay marriage) in this country?

I still have hope we can pull together to get America back on track. I am sick to death of the drama and the hate. Count me in on whatever team emerges from all this with the goal of restoring the vital power and influence of truly progressive leaders who have the best interest of ALL Americans at heard (including both right-wing nutcases AND flaming liberal freaks!).

[Azure]

109. Neofederalism is the new progressive path

Count me in on whatever team emerges from all this with the goal of restoring the vital power and influence of truly progressive leaders who have the best interest of ALL Americans at heard (including both right-wing nutcases AND flaming liberal freaks!

At this point, that's going to have to be the "neofederalist" team. With an agenda of limited federal government and states' rights, we can give everyone what they want -- red states can have creationism, fundamentalism, and no social programs, while blue states can have liberal social laws, higher taxes at the state level, public assistance, etc. The county is now so irreconcilably divided ideologically that I don't think any other approach will work.

Before Wednesday, I wouldn't have given federalism a second thought. Practically overnight it began to seem like the only way. As so many here have said, the old America is dead. The new one will be either fascist or federalist, and the choice is ours.

[ljm2002]

16. It doesn't piss me off...

...I woke up Wednesday morning with one thought, which was this: I guess I'm a lot more out of touch than I even suspected. It felt like a punch in the gut. I just had no idea, even though I've been around awhile... It just felt like Kerry had the momentum, and then we got knocked upside the head good and hard, WHACK! We got our butts handed to us, whether it was a stolen vote or not, who knows... and with Bush back in office, the thing is, we'll never know. We'll never know the truth behind 9/11; we'll never know the truth about Cheney's energy meetings; we'll never know the truth about so many important matters...

I rarely discuss politics at work -- I've made that a personal policy and it has worked well for me. But Wednesday morning several coworkers came around to my cube and we chatted a bit about the election results. The first one said "So, where are you thinking of moving to? Canada, maybe?" I just looked at him like he was from another planet and said, "Who said anything about moving? I was born and raised here, go back several generations... I'm not going anywhere!"

Grrrr...

[JCMach1]

17. Exactly how I feel... I have left the US almost 1 1/2 years ago

and frankly the only thing that makes me American any more is my passport.

Me and my family are determined to build a life here, or wherever else my career takes us.

If it wasn't for family, I would never again return to the U.S. As they get older, I will relocate them wherever I am.

Democracy in America is dead... the experiment in liberty is over. Welcome to utter one-party rule, and crony-fascism.

I no longer recognize America.

[exJW]

33. Just curious, where did you go?

[blurp]

71. Democracy does not equal liberty

Democracy in America is dead... the experiment in liberty is over. Welcome to utter one-party rule, and crony-fascism.

Democray is not the same as liberty.

What you saw Tuesday was Democracy.

Liberty is what you had Monday.

[trotsky]

20. There's a factor you are forgetting.

People are now two, three, sometimes several generations removed now from ANY of the horrible abuses in society that launched the liberal left. Child labor. 6- or 7-day workweeks, no limit on hours required. You could get fired if you got pregnant, or even if your boss was just mad that day. Unsafe working conditions - people died on the job all the time. Disease, malnutrition, lack of education (although that's certainly a problem again). Tons of these things, and the left was launched because people were FED UP with all of it and wanted to put a stop to it all.

Now, however, few people have any direct experience with those things. It's all a distant memory. I encountered the exact attitude with several of my Me-publican coworkers in a discussion about unions. I defended unions quite well, pretty much dismissing all their claims, and so what they came back to was, "Well, unions may have served a purpose at one time, but they are no longer needed."

THAT'S where we are. People today take for granted all the liberal protections they enjoy. And I don't know that there is a way to wake them up to that without letting the Mepubs just roll everything back. Seriously.

[JCMach1]

22. Yeah, everythings will be gone... the congress will pass

multiple legislation to defang and roll-up the unions.

[Comadreja]

166. We can thank the schools and media

for hiding our progressive past. Honor is given tothe RobberBarons who "made things happen" instead.

[Walt Starr]

23. BINGO!!! And we had damn well better get over this and get right

or we WILL end up with a Republcian PArty with the power to amend the constitution at will. We lost the SCOTUS this race and if we attempt to obstruct that fact, we will lose the constitution because the Republicans will amend it to the point it is not recognizable.

That is what we are facing, folks, and we had damn well better accept it. We need to jettison every issue that gets the Republicans votes and we had better start with guns.

[info being]

31. How you drew that conclusion from that post...I have no idea.

[October]

24. No way

You're forgetting what America is supposed to stand for...

Inclusiveness.

They're trying to change that...we can't let them.

Accept nothing.

51% is not a mandate. And majority does not rule in America -- hence the electoral college system!!!!!

You don't agree with half the voting populace -- that's all. Right now they're in power. They also had a massively funded "get out the vote" campaign. Moderates were stupid enough to be split between GWB and Kerry. They have a hard lesson ahead of them.

Do you not listen to African-Americans because they only represent 13-14% of the American population? Come on! That's what you're saying here. Majority does not rule -- that's why there are so few women in public office!!!!

We're all thinking, mourning, reflecting...but we must stay strong.

[MostlyLurks]

46. I think you misunderstood my meaning.

"You're forgetting what America is supposed to stand for..."

It doesn't matter, IMO, what a country is *supposed* to stand for. I doubt that there are any countries that are supposed to stand for genocide, dictatorial rule, etc. And yet there are countries that clearly engage in those. Constiutional documents are written in poetry, and governments rule in prose. A Constitution, Bill of Rights, etc. means very little if, when the rubber hits the road, the people are willing to ignore and misinterpret them.

You're right, we're supposed to be inclusive and accomodating of the minority in our midst. That's the ideal and I still believe that.

But my original post wasn't about what I believe. It was about what I see to be true. Regardless of what the Grand Old Documents say or imply about inclusiveness, Tuesday and the 30+ years before indicate that the majority in this country do not believe in inclusiveness. This has been a steadily rising tide, and not even the outright, exposed crookery of Nixon did much to stall it.

I'm not saying I agree with the majority that voted for Bush, I'm simply saying they're the true majority now. We've been told for years they weren't, that they were some radical fringe elements and yet here we are, two days removed from the largest number of votes cast for any candidate ever. And they were cast for and by that "fringe". So if they're the fringe, what are we?

We had a massively funded GOTV campaign as well - I think in terms of dollars it was even larger than that of the Republicans. Biggest ever. And we still lost.

There is not one single indicator that this majority was a false majority. Not one objective piece of evidence to support that. Yes, we can lob ad hominem attacks about the "uninformed" and "stupid" swing voters, the "hillbilly" bloc and so on. But that's really just rationalizing what you *hope* to be true.

I'm dealing with the hard light of reality here, and the shadows cast by thiry years of history. We didn't lose Tuesday. We've been losing since 1968. That has to mean something on its face - it can't be explained away as a generation of political operatives consistently spent picking the wrong candidate, pitching the wrong message and listening to the wrong advice. No, I think the only way to interpret this lifetime of losing is to admit that Zell Miller, bat shit insane as he is, was right: this is not a national party anymore. Look at the electoral map. There are entire states in which not one county swung to us. Not one county! And in some of the states we did carry, we did so only by virtue of the population density in a tiny area of that state, such as Chicago handing us Illinois.

Our constituency is split in two, with enemy territory in the middle and cutting us off. We have small, embattled outposts deep in the heart of enemy territory. If this was a war, we'd be three days from surrender or invasion.

I know we all want to think that we lost only to the motivated 51% who voted. It's a nice idea in which to wrap yourself. But I say again: We had a massively funded GOTV campaign. Biggest ever. And we still lost. What will it take for our supposed "true majority" to reach the polls? Doubling that effort? Tripling it? And when we do, what's to say that the other side won't do the same and get more of their voters to the polls as well?

No, I see no way to read this election, and all the others in my life, as anything other than mandates against the things I hold dear, a "Dear John" letter from my country telling me she's found somebody she likes better.

Mostly

[October]

81. But this is what they want

to FURTHER split the wildly inclusive Democratic party. They are hoping for us to become apathetic...the way Evangelicals once were.

I will not surrender. Their side walks lock-step, never looking for a perfect candidate. Our side criticizes its own, as well as, if not more than the opposition. Yes, we're messier and more inclusive...and without one type of cohesiveness...but you must think of America as more than the current America. You must think of America as it was meant to be, and can still be.

I will never believe we can't get her back on track. But we will have a more difficult time of it if people leave us in droves, become apathetic, or expatriots.

Yes, their hatred, bigotry and fear won this time...devastatingly so...I never said it was a flase majority. It was real. Ugly real. That's why we have to tame the beast. Don't give up the fight.

[Stuckinthebush]

25. You are exactly right

The people who say you (or any of us) are a wimp for giving up are well meaning, but they just don't get it.

We can't win. The American people are so simple minded and lacking in basic critical thinking skills, that we can only appeal to them by abandoning our principles. I refuse to do that.

This country is no longer the great nation it was. It is a mere husk of a once great land. The beginning of the end is here, and we must all make a choice. Futilely fight, or accept the inevitable. If acceptance is the answer, then the next question is "What am I going to do now?" Live in a land that is an embarrassment and a danger to me and my family, move to another nation that shares my values, or push for revolution and civil war? I am not much for war, and I don't know if I want to live in a theocracy, so option 2 may be the one I have to go with. Of course, we all need to wait and watch for a while to see what direction the country is heading.

One thing that I have begun to critically analyze is the concept of nationalism. Why do we feel the need to fight for our nation? It has told us that it wants no part of our agenda. If this is true, why do we have a "love" of country? What is it about this large patch of land with a mere 229 years of history as a nation that makes us feel pride? Certainly not the values of the electorate. The great experiment of civil rights for all seems to be failing. Does that flag now bring a sense of pride or a sense of shame? These are all important questions to ask, but we all need to step back from our learned nationalistic tendencies to ask them.

I'll let you know what I come up with when my head finally clears.

[Phillycat]

69. Fantastic post.

Exactly, exactly.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

27. I came to the same conclusions long ago.

Right after the Kent State murders to be exact. Up until then, I had believed that if the American people could see what their government was capable of, could see that dark heart of the government and capitalism, they would react with the same revulsion I felt.

Kent State proved me wrong.

I don't give a rip about "America". And, the same is true for every country on the globe. I do care about the people who inhabit the planet and consider myself as a citizen of the world and my brother's keeper.

Patriotism, Nationalism, "we're number one", is for suckers.

[info being]

30. Couldn't agree more. I have no loyalty to country or party.

I have loyalty to the human race, but that only goes so far. Sometimes I think that the best thing for the world would be if humans were wiped out. Sure looks like that's the course we're taking.

On a different plane, people get what they deserve. We have to focus our energies more effectively to improve our own lives given this reality.

[info being]

28. I have felt the same as you for all my adult life

I had hope that this time it would be different, but it isn't. I, too, stand against everything the American mainstream stands for. It doesn't matter how much talking or writing or action I do, they will not change because they do not want to.

The question is, how this minority live as a true community anyway. We have to reject the mainstream while somehow embracing each other. That is the only answer.

[rniel]

35. Try Nihilism

works for me.

[ieoeja]

41. I would.

But would it really make any difference?

[MostlyLurks]

50. I you were a nihilist, you wouldn't have bothered posting. ;) n/t

[CTD]

40. I could have written this.

But you wrote it much better than I would have.

Ironically, I came to more or less the exact same realization in the last 24 hrs as well. The result of this election WAS the will of the majority of the people. They are happy with it. Many are "relieved".

I doubt any candidate expressing progressive views will ever have half a chance of capturing national office in this country. It is simply not in the nature of the people. We ARE outside the mainstream. And while I view that as a good thing, it's probably unrealistic to ever expect to have a president that expouses our views.

Thank you for putting this into words.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

44. Call Me A Pollyanna

but I see progress made on the side of those who favor human rights...


Even Bush is forced to talk of compassionate conservatism and support for allowing states to have civil unions...


Sure, eleven states passed gay marriage prohibition amendments but homophobia and bigotry have been pushed underground...

The n word or fag has been banished from civilized conversation....


Don't drift off into that long night pardner...

[derbstyron]

49. I don't believe this to be true because

we are screwed over by those that don't vote and are not even registered. Look at the figures: 60% of REGISTERED voters voted. Which means 40% did not, plus those that are not even registered.

And who are those that don't vote? How about the disenfranchised. Minorities, low-income, the young. You've heard it before: they say that there is no point, that their vote doesn't count.

The Freepers knock them: those on food stamps, on welfare. Anybody want to know who doesn't vote. It these people. Sadly, I am now one of them. Due to mental health issues I have been forced to go on Soc Sec Disability, Two years ago I was managing a million dollar retail store. I had a house in Venice, FL. I would go out clubbing almost every night (so, not me, but I digress :) ). And now?

I have no insurance. Because I am a single male I cannot get Medicaid. Due to cuts (thanks Jeb) Medicaid is only for women with children at this point. I am forced to attend a community center too see a doctor. And do you know what I heard these last few weeks. People HATED Bush and his policies but they were not going to vote. Said it wouldn't matter. I tried to talk to some but it didn't work.

Now you may loathe these people (I know the Freepers due) but those of us on the welfare state, and sadly, I am one, simply are not voting. Although I did vote (always have) most simply due not. I am unsure how to reach these people, as well as the young. Perhaps the next few years will shake some sense in these people.

Perhaps if Bush tries to shed my SS Disability income people will wake up. But I refuse to believe that their are more of them than there are of us. They are just better organized and have a louder voice. All the more sad because those so intolerant are supposed to be christians.

Don't give up yet. I haven't. The fight for the country MUST go on.

[pdx_prog]

65. Gather up five people...

ask for their political views......usually 1 or 2 out of the 5 will have no opinion. I know several people who do not exercise their right to vote.....don't want to, not interested and doesn't care. They don't see it as making a difference.

I live on the west coast, but I grew up in the south. I have been out here for 5 years now, and I am still very much in touch with people there. The south is a different world....completely different. Most there see the world exactly as bush does, "good vs. evil". Getting throgh to the old southerners is going to be a hurdle.

[derbstyron]

67. exactly

Another thing you will hear when talking to people is: it doesn't matter. They are all the same. We are going to have to suffer for people to realize that is not the case.

[Jose Diablo]

101. "Getting throgh to the old southerners is going to be a hurdle."

And that is exactly what we are going to do.

[Azure]

115. I hear you. I'm on SSI as well.

[yardwork]

52. Bush stole another election through voter suppression

The knowledge that almost half the country supported Bush doesn't make me feel any more resigned, because the half who doesn't support him outnumber the idiots. I firmly believe this.

I may become the crazy old aunt of DU, but I am convinced that this election was stolen through voter suppression and disappearing electronic votes in Ohio and all over the country.

[NoSheep]

53. I was right all along. I checked out. Focussed on my own life.

Became Buddhist in my thinking. I know the world is just too damn stupid. I grew up with ignorant people in the South. I have been on the outside all my 41 years. I'm poor, and because of my values, I will probably always be poor. My boyfriend brought me back to politics.I have suffered so much since. Trying to change the world. I have to Change MY world and affect those I touch with kindness and compassionn

[Beetwasher]

54. ACCEPT YOUR REPUBLICAN OVERLORDS

And you will be free at last and at peace. Amen.

[LoZoccolo]

55. So much irresponsible bullshit.

So what if we lost the election? The country is still yours, whether you chose it or it chose you, and is your responsibility to reshape. To play seperatist is elitist, irresponsible, selfish, and inconsiderate of whoever else has to do extra duty to make up for your neglect. Especially infuriating is your bowing out when our majority is closer than it was during the Reagan, Bush, and even as you point out, the Clinton era.

Plus, you are wrong about not winning an election since whenever. Gore won the last one, and Gore & Nader had a clear majority together.

[NoSheep]

57. I wan't to believe you. It's so hard right now

[MostlyLurks]

66. It's a big picture thing.

"Plus, you are wrong about not winning an election since whenever. Gore won the last one"

That's true, I hadn't considered that when writing the original post. But it doesn't do much to change the numbers: 8 out of 10 instead of 9.

But my point wasn't that we lost this one election - it was that we had consistently lost for 30 years.

When do we stop and examine our place in the country, instead of constantly finding some "other" reason to blame? It's the machines, it's the media, it's the lies, blah blah blah. We're always finding a reason to excuse ourselves and our beliefs from the debate, as if it's been ordained from on high that America wants us here.

I'm just sick of it. It's us. We're responsible for the losses. It's not a coincidence that this wave started in '68, right around the time the repressive mores of America were being exploded by the hippies.

America-at-large saw it and rejected it. In '68, in '72, in '74, in '80, in '84, in '88, in '00, in '02, in '04. Tuesday was not a "sudden" turn, it was just one more year in the list, another ass-kicking that should be sending us a message.

If we want to have any chance of surviving the next decade, we've got to study long and hard what we - not the machines, not the media, not the "opposition" - have gotten so wrong about our fellow citizens over the past 30 years. And what I fear is that such an examination will reveal that America as a collective is somewhere between moderate and rightist. Even the so-called "Big Dog" had to act the centrist more than real "liberal". Thus leaving little space for our values and beliefs.

I haven't changed any of my beliefs since Tuesday. I still beleive in the rights of gays, society's responsibility to the poor, environmental conservation, resistance to militarism, etc. I simply don't think politics, or America, offers any viable arena for my views to emerge.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

59. I'm right there with you. I've felt this way for quite some time.

You've articulated my deepest feelings well. Not pissed off at all.

[RichardRay]

62. Breathe deep, get drunk, don't think about it, then refocus

It sounds like you were pretty focused on the election. It was worth being focused on, and here's a couple of things to think about:

It's no different anyplace else you go. Don't think you'll find people any different at the core in some other country. Besides, why would people in another country be happy to see you? They're suffering as a result of your country's actions, and no matter how far and how fast you run it'll still be 'your country' in their minds. You may try to absolve yourself of your responsibilities, but you can't, so don't fool yourself.

If you expect to win most the time you're always going to be dissapointed. There are too many people with too many disparate ideas to get a majority of them going in the same direction very often. It's about maintaining pressure and getting what you can when you can. People have been fighting that fight in this country for a couple of hundred years, and we'll keep leaning on it. We won't win nearly as often as we'd like to, and we'll lose some pretty important and desperate fights. Oh, well.

You can live a good life in this country as well as qnyplace else, and more easily then in most places. Do yourself and all of us a favor and find some balance so you can get something done. The other direction is simple nihilism.

Richard Ray - Jackson Hole, WY

[rockydem]

63. You're WRONG and I'll tell you why

Progressives won the battle against the robber barons at the turn of the centruy.

Progressives won the battle for women's suffrage and rights.

Progressives won the battle for civil rights in the sixties.

Progressives have made great strides on environmental issues to the point that the pugs have to talk nice about protecting the environment even while they plunder it...but at least we have them on the run - they must try to appear 'sensitive' to it.

Also a majority of Americans trust the Dems more than the pugs to run the economy - all the polls show this - and you can thank Clinton for that.

Bush won by turning out the flocks of fundies and by appealing to non-fundies through fear.

Politics is a fickle business my friend - up one year, down the next.

The pendulum may have swung a ways more rightward this year - but THE BASE UPON WHICH IT RESTS IS MOVING IN A PROGRESSIVE DIRECTION. That's the reality of history - and nothing you do or say can change that - so you better get used to it....

[Francine Frensky]

75. America ALWAYS moves forward. Did anyone else

see the glimmer in Kerry's eyes, the slight smile on his face, when he said those words in his speech yesterday??

I think that's how it is... America is at heart liberal.

[sub.theory]

70. Know exactly how you feel

I'm still working on my degree. Once I have it, I'm only applying for and accepting jobs overseas. I'm done with America. Until then, I'm just working on myself. No more politics. No more protests. I'm done. Thanks for the great essay. Appreciate to know others feel the same.

[catbert836]

73. I wish I could disgree

But I know your right

[monster618]

82. Progressive like us fight for a better America. Please fight on!

Progressives have led the fight for a lot of the civil liberties that we enjoy. Sure, it's a thankless position to be in. Didn't Martin Luther King get shot for his "radical" views? What if he had decided that fghting wasn't worth it?

Hang in there, buddy. I know exactly how you feel. I have been wondering if I am somehow the one that's wrong. Though I am sad, I am sure that I am right.

The problem is that we haven't been going about this the right way. We have let "Liberal Hollywood" become the face of our party. Though I respect Michael Moore and believe him to be a patriot, most of America is turned off by his aggressive style. I think Skinner is dead-on. We need to get back into the center and hammer away with our core values; middle-class, working families, and the economy. We lost this election because we let the Right change the face of our party, making it look more extreme. We can recover, and we will.

I grew up in a middle-class minority home, and I always felt that the Democratic party is the only party that can represent me. Middle-class working families and minorities NEED progrssive thinkers like you. Please, fight on.

[Baja Margie]

83. I know what you're saying,

and I think what your doing is avoidance as a protection mechanism. That's normal, we got fucked here. If that's what works for you, okay.

We live in Mexico. Down here, they call it "Ni Modo." Ni Modo is a fatalistic attempt to deal with seemingly overwhelming odds that life throws our way. Here, historically, the Mexican people have been totally fucked and repressed.

The problem with ni modo, or avoidance, is that it not only affects the political and social structure, but invades life as a whole to the point of total apatheticism.

Every coin has it's backside, and the backside to this coin on a political level is radical nationalism. We all know the dangers of both.

You are hurt badly now, so are all of us. But, I cannot, even not living in the USA, turn my back on her completely, or turn my back on the decency of values that were represented by John Kerry. Further, I will fight on on a personnal level, simply out of the memory of all those who went before our time and suffered or died for our Country, with either their guts spilled out on one battlefield or another, or getting their heads beat in for unionizing, or enduring rascism or sexism, poverty, social ostracicism. Change is slow, I know we all wish it were quicker,but, we live in an imperfect world. I know I thought back when McGovern was running and lost, oh the world is ending, and yet, it didn't. It took awhile, but we were blessed with Jimmy Carter, we were blessed with Bill Clinton, we were blessed to have Michael Moore, and we were blessed by many Congresspeople and Senator's fighting for the right stuff.

Think what good one Shindler did, think what good !

Don't give up the ship and hope you feel better soon.


Margie in Baja

[monster618]

86. This will cheer you up a bit. EVERYONE PLEASE READ!!!!

Check this out. It cheered me up a bit.

http://chrisevans3d.com/files/iq.htm

[MostlyLurks]

98. Thanks for the effort.

But that didn't cheer me up. It makes official the fact that the clinically less intelligent are at the helm.

[Dangerman]

89. I am very pissed off at America.

Well half of America who voted for Chimpy anyway. I have lost fatih in this counrty.

[Baja Margie]

94. Look

I'm pissed off too, but when was this country, the USA, ever really together on an issue? Maybe during the great Depression years, when people helped each other out, for sure during WWII...this is the nature of the beast !

Christ, be pissed off !!! But don't give up.

[RadioFlyer]

100. Actually...

even during WW II (and in the years leading up to it), there were many who did not favor the pre-war and war effort. They just didn't report on them very much. The news media back then was VERY different. Many people didn't even know that FDR was in a wheelchair. That wouldn't be possible today.

And alas, even the Nazis had their fans in this country: Charles Lindbergh comes to mind. If I weren't so tired, I could think of more. And there was a persistent isolationist movement as well. Pearl Harbor mostly ended that, but not totally.

[Baja Margie]

105. wwwhat????

Who didn't favor the War effort during WWII? Boy, that's news to me.
WWII affected just about everyone in the USA, you were either in the service, working as a rosie the riveter, everyone was on ration cards for food & gas, shit, it was all consuming. My parents fought and lived through the whole period, they were a part of the "greatest generation."

You are correct on the isolation aspect, Neville Chamberland fucked around so much & couldn't make a commitment if his life depended on it, while Europe fell into the hands of Hitler.

And, you're right, prior to Pearl the US did not want involvement, and there is still debate going on whether or not Pearl was contrived to sway the feelings of the American people.

But shit, after that, WWII was a lifestyle in the USA. A fucking lifestyle.

[a new day]

95. Very thoughtful, didn't piss me off, I feel the same

The fellow from Jackson Hole has a good point, though. You can't run from yourself, and you will find that, as good as your intentions may be, those in other places will hold you responsible for the good ol' USA, anyway.

I think the quote from Harry Belafonte is apt:

"We must just understand that the sacrifice we have yet to make, the sacrifice that is demanded of us. Somebody, in cleaning up the air, is going to have to talk about not driving anymore. Somebody, in trying to get a better price for goods, is going to have to say that we have to stop running after the fast food market. Somebody is going to have to make a sacrifice, somebody is going to have to put their body in front of the machine, somebody is going to have to die."

[bhikkhu]

96. About Freedom

People are always willing to give up their freedom to conform to the norms of the society in which they live. We do it without thinking. Reasonably, then, an authority wishing to take away some specific freedoms of a populace, toward a specific agenda, has only to convince that populace that the majority approve. This is all that has been done - America has not changed, it has only been rescripted. The neo-cons are well aware that they are "creating reality", their own words.
Get in line, or get a spine.

[MostlyLurks]

97. Again, I think you misunderstood.

I never said I *accepted* the agenda, the "moral" arguments, etc. I said I *understood* my country now, I saw it in its true form.

And what I saw was not what we all want to believe. It is what it is, and for 30+ years it has been conservative, fundamentalist, xenophobic and Biblically hateful. We, as liberals, have always believed in our hearts that there was an undercurrent of rampant liberalism.

But I think we have to now examine this with clear heads and admit that we were probably wrong. That America is actually as conservative as its Presidents make it appear to be.

That's all.

As for "America has not changed, it has only been rescripted", I think maybe we're talking different stuff when we mention "America". When I mention it, I mean the people, the citizens, the electorate. Because in my estimation, the establishing documents are all well and good but the country is its people.

From the context of your statement, I believe your use of "America" refers to the founding ideals and you're certainly right when you say "it's been rescripted". But I don't think "rescripting" is an "only" proposition. I mean, just think: 11 states now have Constitutional limits to personal freedom.

These were not meaningless "resolutions". My state, OH, passed an amendment to its Consitution. That's about as permanent and static as it gets. It is now *official* state doctrine that some people don't deserve rights. Official state doctrine. That's a pretty cataclysmic rescripting. It's a complete overturning of everything that has happned since the end of segregation. It's like taking the aliens out of, well, "Aliens". It's not a rescripting - it's a whole new movie.

And it's not a movie I want to watch any more.

We all had a good hearty laugh when that infamous article talked about us being the "reality based community". I can see now exactly what that means. While we were all here talking about what the Constitution and Bill of Rights grants to us, the other side wasn't bothering to worry about the reality of the rights we hold. Instead, they were working to change the reality of those rights. And they succeeded in 20% of the states that comprise this country - in a day. That's staggering. Fully one fifth of this country has now officially endorsed the shrinkage of rights. If that's not a repudiation of everything we here in this little virtual enclave beleive in, then Christ, I don't know how much more clear they can possibly make it.

And I've got a spine, my friend. I'm just not going to straighten my back over politics any more. It's a lost cause.

[Baja Margie]

106. That's exactly

what "they" want you to do. Oh well, fuck it, it's your life.

[geek tragedy]

103. I agree. I consider myself a New Yorker, not an American.

I'm here by accident and circumstance, not by choice.

I have no greater connection to Wyoming or Alabama than I do to Borneo or Belize.

[timtom]

104. God, That's amazing.

I woke up with the same sort of insouciant, carefree feeling I've felt in years. I told my co-workers at work that I'm done with it now. I felt remarkably light and buoyant.

Unfortunately, we still have to face the unspeakable evil to unfold in the days to come.

That gives me angst.

[killbotfactory]

108. The blood won't be on our hands

That's something.

[jpatti]

110. I too feel that I am a stateless refugee.

I have no country, no president, no home. Earlier this evening, I, my husband and my daughter held a small ceremony, a funeral to grieve together for the death of America.

I have no hope for her for the immediate future. I see a descent into totalatarianism and I see that the people chose this as surely as the Germans elected Hitler.

Today, Germany is a pretty admirable and progressive society. Someday, America may be again also. But there's a long hard road ahead of her before she gets there.

I currently believe that by the time she does get there, all decent human beings will feel about our flag the way we currently feel about the swastika. That it once stood for the ideals embodied in the Declaration of Independence and Constitution will be meaningless just as the pre-Nazi meaning of the swastika is irrelevant.

I believe there are *very* bad times ahead. It will change everything. It will be unspeakably bad. I have written off America for the time being. That is very, very painful to me. She is not *my* country, yet I have loved her all my life.

But while I mourn the loss of my country, there is a distinction to be made between grief and despair. It is extremely American-centric to give in to despair, to decide that if the light of liberty no longer shines in America, therefore our values are dead in the world.

Guess what, people? Americans didn't invent democracy. Neither is the notion of freedom of speech is an American invention. Liberty did not first spring into being with the ratification of our constitution. The founding fathers writings were based on the ideas of philosophers from other nations. We do not hold a monopoly on the ideas of human rights, civil rights, justice, taking care of the underdog.

In fact, other nations have done better. Read Canada's constitution sometime. They didn't have to amend it to fix the "compromise" of counting slaves as 2/3rds human for the purpose of deciding representation. No, they counted all people, even gays, as actual humans. A "liberal" idea in America is a matter-of-fact idea for them.

Read up on what's been happenning in the EU, the progress made by both individual states and the union. The stuff going on is exciting. I remember a decade or so back, in grad school in Massachusetts, a student from Europe explaining to me that to European eyes, even Massachusetts was conservative. We didn't have any liberals in the US!

We're such an insular nation and so few of us have been anywhere else that it's hard to put this in perspective.

The bad news is our nation has chosen evil. I can't begin to express my grief over that.

But the good news is the entire rest of the world opposes us. Polls on every continent, in nearly all countries, resoundingly chose Kerry over Bush.

Freedom is *not* dead. The majority of the world chooses liberty over fascism.

I am not alone. Yes, I am a refugee, but I am a refugee in a world that holds the same beliefs and values precious to it's heart as I do, a world full of nations that *do* stand for what I believe in.

[SOS]

169. Historical note

The German people did not elect Hitler. Here are the results from the the last free presidential election in Germany:
RUNOFF PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION
APRIL 1932:

Hindenburg
53.0%
Hitler
36.8%
Thaelman
10.2%

The liberals and communists received 63.2%.

Hitler seized total control in January 1933 after appointment to chancellor. Hindenburg foolishly accepted von Papen's assurances that Hitler could be controlled by the multi-party Reichstag in which the Nazi's were a minority party. The Nazi's actually lost over 2 million votes in the two Reichstag elections of 1932, ending up at 33%.

And yesterday Bush was whining about "artificial limits" on his presidential term!

[Piperay]

111. I agree

mentally I am detaching myself from all of this until I can physically leave.

[Flammable Materials]

112. I couldn't have said it any better, my friend.

I say we all pool our resources, move to Europe, and start a commune.

:hug:

[LynnTheDem]

113. Guys, it takes TIME. Look at CANADA.

Our "conservatives" are your "liberals".

The far rightwingnuttery in America IS NOT the majority. It never has been.

Apathy is, however. Even 3rd world nations routinely turn out 80%+ voters.

bush won by A VERY VERY VERY SLIM MARGIN.

6 months ago NO ONE but NO ONE thought ANYONE would beat bush.

And yet we came DAMN CLOSE. AMAZINGLY damn close. In the middle of 2 failing wars.

bush got the LOWEST margin of ANY WAR PRESIDENT IN US HISTORY for crying out loud!!!

KNOCK OFF THE POOR WITTLE US bullshit already, GEEEEEEZ!!!

WE DONE GOOD. DAMN GOOD.

[KWBS]

116. From a Republican that backed Kerry - Edwards

In 1980 the South had 26 Democratic Senators, today it has 4. If you look at the national "red versus blue" map at both State and County level it is not hard to see that the DNC has become very isolated from the mainstream of this nation.

2 to 1 Americans classify themselves as conservatives and many moderates vote to the right, not the left on many issues.

Bush has one Achilles Heel that will bring him down, take the wind out of his Imperial Sails and that is 9-11.

I was part of the 9-11 Confronting the Evidence in NYC this year. I was part of the criminal complaint that was delivered to Eliot Spitzer on October 28, 2004.

Over 55 million voted against and many of those voters were ecumenical Christians you people are blindly bashing. They were Conservative Republicans and Libertarians that crossed over to try to stop the Bush Junta and the fascism that is represents.

Right here in Arkansas - two key counties that NEVER vote REP did vote Republican this year. Jefferson and Nevada counties and there were others.

The problem with DNC is DNC and that it represents the fringe left and that is NOT America folks. 2 to 1 says this nation is a conservative nation and one that puts certain values front and center every time.

www.karlschwarz.com

http://www.reopen911.org/petition.php

http://www.justicefor911.org /

All of this talk about running Hillary Clinton in 2008. The RNC has been ready to destroy her since 1994. The strategy that took the House and Senate away from Clinton was designed and largely financed by me. Again, run Hillary, rash into the side of the mountain. They are just waiting for another stupid DNC move.

I took a stand for America, freedom, a turning away from Imperialism and fascism. I have received hundreds of emails from Dems asking what to do now. Frankly, DNC is not "resuscitate-able" in its current form. Lest no one noticed, Bush now controls a stronger US Senate and that is more frightening than him being there for 4 more years.

Every person that voted against Bush should be on those petitions linked above.

It is the only hope you have to stopping Bush, and I am the only Republican of the 100 original names on the petition.

If you have not done so, go to my website under Articles and read the DEMAND LETTER that I sent to Bush September 30, 2004 about 7 hours before the first debate and THEN - get this CLEARLY INTO YOUR HEADS -

that DEMAND LETTER was sent to DNC and Kerry too and they did not use it in the debates to evicerate Bush. CONSIDER THAT!

Both sides of the aisle are covering up 9-11 folks, who did it, who is profiting from it and they are AMERICANS.

Ashcroft was forced to resign due to that letter and I was advised from DC yesterday to NOT accept that as the sacrificial offering and let the rest of the DOERS OF 9-11 OFF THE HOOK!

Wake up Dems.

Karl

[demwing]

117. Was That Your Goal? To Piss Us off?

I'm especially suspicious of low count posters preaching that all is lost, spreading the gospel of defeat, and trying to convince us that Republicans just wanted to help us see reality all along.

Bullshit.

Nice try, but I'm not buying.

In the last two Presidential elections, Democrats garnered record amounts of votes. In the 2004 election, Democrats raised record amounts of money. In both cases, Republicans win by cheating.

If you are sincere, which I doubt, but you want to accept defeat, go right ahead. There are others who will fight, there always will be. You're lucky for that.

If you're NOT sincere (and you aren't, just admit it) then kindly get the hell out of my face. There's work to be done.

[MostlyLurks]

120. OH FOR CHRIST'S SAKE

I am so sick of people blindly following the mantra that low post counts is somehow generally suspicious. Have you actually looked at anything else I've posted, in this thread or any other? Quality, not quantity.

And I don't mean to burst your bubble, but some of your high post count liberal friends unmasked on Tuesday and made your idea look like a fucking idiot.

WHEN DO I GET MY OFFICIAL LIBERAL" MEMBERSHIP CARD? When can I rest easy in the knowledge that I'll have enough posts to count as liberal? And how do I get there if the post police constantly tell me to shut my f***ing mouth because I ain't toeing the line?

My goal was to speak my mind, to voice what I *thought* was probably true for a segment of people on DU. What I also knew to be true was that a certain element here cannot see past anything but their own idea of what "liberal" means and how much America loves us. And I knew that looking at an objective reality - i.e. we got our ass kicked - would piss those people off. Especially considering I made no bones about my interpretation of that ass kicking - i.e. it was a real ass-kicking.

"Democrats garnered record amounts of votes."

Yeah, only if you ignore or explain away one crucial fact: one other guy who got more.

"In the 2004 election, Democrats raised record amounts of money."

Yeah, which is real impressive until you realize it didn't deliver us much of anything. Not the White House, or the Senate, or the House or protected rights for gays. Yay us, we got a lot of votes! Too bad they didn't help us do anything.

Look, if you want to live in a world where every election is rigged, that's fine. It'll certainly help you keep a safe and comfortable self-identity. But I'm trying to face reality, and if your response is find YET ANOTHER EXCUSE (i.e. "this guy's a troll") it proves that you're the one with a reality problem. When all of reality is in conspiracy against you, it's time to start wondering if it's not really you that's conspiring against reality.

You know, it's amazing: the election was rigged, the news is slanted, the polls are wrong, the people are stupid, the evangelicals are evil. It seems our whole platform of beliefs comes down to what we don't believe.

Hey by the fucking way, I assume you've blasted Matcom too, because he posted very similar sentiment in another thread. Or does his high post count let him off the hook? (Sorry to Matcom for invoking his name, but it's relevant and if he wants to excoriate me, he's welcome to.)

[demwing]

123. Oh, poor thing...

I have a relatively low post count myself. Your post count is not my entire point, its just one less reason to trust YOU. The real issue I have is with the content of your post. I wouldn't care if you had 10 thousand posts, when you say that republicans are just trying to help us poor, ignorant Democrats, I'm suspect. Furthermore, the louder you scream at me, the less I listen.

If you don't want to see that the election was rigged, then don't. If you think that my believing that Republicans are fucking cheats makes me an idiot, then fine.

I don't care.

I've already heard what you have to say, and I don't like it, agree with it, or trust it.

The votes we garnered would have won us this election, if the vote was fairly tabulated. They were not, and I think that matters.

You think it's insane.

People like Bev Harris think differently.

Weighing my choices, I'll side with people like Beverly Harris over you, and if Matcom were to suddenly start saying that republicans have just been looking out for us, that their insults and slurs were just a method by which they hoped to bring us into the glorius present you seem to embrace, then I would not listen to him, either.

[MostlyLurks]

124. A question then

Let's say you're right, that the election was stolen. When will you beleive that one wasn't? The next time we win one? And what do you then believe when we lose another? That we had one good election and now they've gone back to rigging them? It's a downward spiral because it does not admit to all possible circumstances. Are you going to trod this path until death, watching wave after wave of Republican victory sweep us to the side, quietly whispering to yourself "Damn theft, damn media, damn anything else." Why is it that we take as Gospel the idea not that we're right - which I believe we are - but that we're the majority? Why can't it be true that the wrong people are the majority?

As I see it, from a strictly philosophical standpoint, you're backing reality into a corner where either you're right or reality's wrong. Your position leaves you no room to consider that YOU might be wrong. You explain and rationalize everything, pointing fingers in every conceivable direction SAVE for at yourself. Everything has the potential to be wrong, to be rigged, to be slanted, except you.

And that's exactly what I'm talking about. I woke up Thursday and realized I had to take those blinders off and start to really ponder the idea as to whether I might actually be the problem (not that my ideals are wrong, but my pre-conception of their universality). If you don't want to do that, that's fine.

But here's the key: you can say this election was rigged. You can say 2000 was (which I agree with, coincidentally). But at what point were the elections not rigged? In 92 and 96 when we didn't get a majority? Was Perot a Republican plant? In '88, '84, '80 when we lost by a landslide? At some point, you need to admit, just for your own ability to move the Progressive agenda forward, that we may have to examine ourselves and stop looking for external actors.

Frankly, the big problem is: what if you're wrong? Your point of view dooms the Democratic party to defeat at every possible turn because it locks out the idea of change and adaptation. We keep looking for the right candidate, that perfect politician, but when anyone says "maybe we should look for the right message", that's taboo. Hell, most of us will admit that we had that guy in 92 and 96 and we still didn't get a majority. Can we expect to find a better politician than Clinton? A guy more capable of "connecting with the back row"? I doubt it, and the fact that he was Democratic Superman and still came this close to dropping the ball should have been a wake up call that maybe there was a little bit of truth to the "out of the mainstream" claim.

"I don't like it, agree with it, or trust it"

It's pretty clear that the only thing you trust is your image of your beliefs and their acceptance in this country. That's blind faith. And at that point, what separates you from the evangelicals who have blind faith in their image of Bush?

Here's what the real heart of this thread boils down to: lots of well-meaning people have posted saying I'm wrong and given subjective anecdotes to back themselves up. It's real easy to find one person who makes your point. It'e even relatively easy to find a poll that supports you idea. But ultimately, it comes down to the reality of the situation. There is no better poll than the vote itself, and unless you're willing to argue the idea that every Republican tilted election for the past 36 years has been rigged, we're 3 and 7.

But you know what's really odd? NOBODY, as far as I am aware, has insinuated that the "marriage protection" vote was rigged, because those were wide margin vivtories. So let's ignore the Presidential race, and your contention that it was fixed.

What does the "marriage protection" landslide tell us? It tells us exactly what I'm asserting: that our values, liberal values, are not the values of the electorate at large. This was not just a state-by-state landslide, this was a national landslide. The amendments passed overwhelmingly in all cases, in both blue and red states. How can you possibly assert that doesn't mean anything as a referendum on liberal issues? This was not a candidate defeat, this was a clear issue defeat. It was a choice between freedom for all and freedom for most and Americans of both colors chose contrary to the Constitution. How is there any way to interpret that in any context that doesn't include some rejection of core liberal/progressive values?

In Michigan, it passed 58.5% to 41.5%. Meanwhile, Michigan voted for Kerry by three percentage points. So a balls up liberal issue went down in flames by a 17 point margin, while the Presidential choice went only 3 points in the opposite direction. How can that not mean something?

I'm a liberal, and proud to say it. And I don't care if you beleive it or not because there's nothing I'll be able to do to convince you and frankly, that's not a job I should I have to undertake simply because I urged people to look at things objectively. But I refuse to wallow in the arrogant notion that I can't also be in the minority.

[demwing]

126. This deserves a decent read and response

but I'm at work and time does not permit a lengthy response.

Later tonight I'll answer. Thanks for the apparently reasoned response, we may not agree but we can discuss like humans.

peace

[DoBotherMe]

127. But, what if gay issue was not used as a wedge

by either party? What if both parties leadership asked their constituencies to accept gays as "normal" what if there was no distinction made between people because of the random mix of genes. What this tells me is that this "marriage protection" issue is just a straw man, fueled by the RW so that they can consolidate power using a portion of the electorate. The issue is a fabrication it has no substance.

[MostlyLurks]

129. But the fact that it IS used as a wedge....

I think you're asking a valid philosophical question which boils down to: can we get people to accept their differences?

I would certainly hope we can. But the lingering - and I fear rising - sentiment of racism in this country leads me to think maybe we can't. So much of the world is screwed because of simple differences among people. In Africa, the Middle East, the Balkans, on and on.

The really scary part is that people have never, in the course of history, decided en masse that "there was no distinction made between people because of the random mix of genes". Put simply, that's never happened, as far as I'm aware.

But I think the crucial point to be made has to do with your question "What if both parties leadership asked their constituencies to accept gays as "normal" what if there was no distinction made between people because of the random mix of genes". This places your contention in the real world, moving it from philosophy to reality.

The fact is, they're not doing that. I think our side is trying, although sometimes our leaders seem to be doing it with closed mouths, but the other side certainly ain't. And when you get right down to it, that's the key. They don't have to because they realize it's easier to use the wedge than the...um...opposite of a wedge. Which says something about whether your assumption is true.

Furthermore, I think it's time for us to realize that sometimes a wedge is a wedge. We've talked for years about their flagrant use of divisive issues and how despicable that is as a way to motivate their side. But now it bears examination: is this slate of wedge issues divisive simply because the issues are truly divisive? In other words, maybe this isn't manipulation, maybe it's the truth.

I think what's gotten me a lot of flack with this thread, is that I'm questioning our basic assumptions. Not our policy assumptions. As I've said several times, just because 11 states voted gay marriage down doesn't mean I've personally changed my opinion on it. Or that George Bush doesn't tuck his forked tail down his pant leg when he dresses. But our long-standing assumption that we're the "oppressed majority" has really been jeopardized in my mind.

The sad truth may be this: maybe the wrong people really are the majority. Maybe -isms (racism, classism, sexism, homophobia-ism) are the majority. That doesn't make me change my own beliefs, but it did make me slough off the image that I'm an American.

Why do we desperately cling to the notion that this is a tactical war and not an ideological war? We've been trying to refine and hone our tactics for decades now. And everytime we suffer a setback, we blame the tactics. "Kerry shouldn't have done this, and he should have said that".

But what if its not tactics? What if it's as simple as the ideas being offered? I'm not saying we should change ourselves as people, but that maybe our image of ourselves needs to change. If we can do that, we might be able to connect with people and find ourselves more empowered by the system.

I mean, think about it: a party that cannot see itself and its country as it truly is has disenfranchised *itself*. The only way we can start winning back the red people is to realize that they NEED to be won back.

If we perhaps accept that we really do have work to do, and that it's not as simple as GOTV, then we're moving forward. But if all we do is retrench and say "Well, in two years, we'll have an even bigger GOTV effort", what's to say that will work? It didn't this year and we had the largest voter turnout in history.

And I don't think a straw man is one that's been overwhelmingly ratified by 20% of the country. I'll bet you that if the issue had been on the ballot for all 50 states, maybe 10 would have voted it down.

It's like I said downthread, I'm very pragmatic and not prone to looking at things as I hope they are. And I think passionate ideologues (a term I use with no derogatory inflection) are prone to be very suspicious of that. And that's fine, that's why I've been willing to debate and not just flame and withdraw. But I really suspect that we're going to keep having our asses handed to us until we start really asking the hard questions.

[a new day]

118. What is this thing people have about low count posters?

A lot of blabber-hands that write here should post less, IMHO.

[MostlyLurks]

121. Amen.

I could have about 4000 posts by now if all I posted were "kick" and subject-line-only messages. But I lurk until I have something to say that I hope will entertain or inform.

[demwing]

125. Oh Please...(rolls eyes)

It's not JUST the low post count, its the low counts and the repeating of Republican talking points that I have "a thing" about.

Serioulsy now, Lurker has less than 200 posts, and I've seen people do 200 posts in a few short days, if not faster. So do you, for that matter.

But it isn't the count that counts here, its this part of his/her message:

"It's time to wake up and smell the political coffee: WE ARE OUT OF THE MAINSTREAM. The 'Pubs have been telling us this for years and we constantly scoffed and said they were wrong. But it turns out they were right: they weren't trying to job us with political rhetoric, they were trying to help us understand what was happening. "

Poor little Repukes, we just misunderstood them all this time. They were really just doing us 'OUT-OF-TOUCH' Democrats a favor. They didn't mean no harm....

:nopity:

Pardon me for my skepticism. Or not.

[MostlyLurks]

128. Maybe the "Search" feature is to blame.

If we weren't seeing such high traffic levels, maybe you'd be more comfortable with me. I'm serious when I say I mostly lurk. I've been on this board for over a year now despite the fact that I have less than 200 posts. I think my fisr post was only about three months ago. But I've been reading the forums for a long time.

If you could search for my past posts, you'd see I'm not a freeper. I do tend to be a bit...what's the word...pragmatic, maybe? There are a lot of ideologues here, and I think I tend to clash with them just by my very nature. We all need each other - and I'm 100% serious when I say my primary intent was to spark a debate among the faithful, because if we're not really looking at ourselves as objectively as possible, we're going to get steamrolled.

Peace.

Mostly

On Edit:

PS I posted a follow up to this thread yesterday in which I urged the natural leaders on DU to start acting their part and telling people like me, who tend not to have leadership skills, what to do. That post got THREE responses, none of which really replied to its substance.

[Cheswick2.0]

161. says the guy with 191 posts....lol

hang in and earn our trust. All of us have been through it.

[DemocracyInaction]

119. I realized that I had fought 40 years for people who now would rather

kill me than look at me. At one time we were joined by Blacks, women, Unions and seniors as they fought for the same things. Then the nation plugged into mindless tv entertainment and thought democracy would just keep on going and all that had been secured would continue. It's about to be wiped away. Those same people are now singing Jesus tunes (and totally perverted that religion)and looking upon us who fought as kin to bin Laden. But I have a secret-----when middle class America collapses, none of us will lift a finger to fight for them again. When they have to look up to the illegal alien coming over the border as someone who is making money while they beg for work, let them know I want them to starve...they can eat communion wafers to stay alive.

[MostlyLurks]

122. I think, for me, the most revelatory thing was...

As I said in my original post, this trend seemed to start in about 68, which was before I was even born. I've never really lived in a "liberal" country, never really had a "liberal" president, except maybe Carter, and he was a one termer. Sorry, I don't consider Clinton a practicing liberal, as he worked pretty closely with the Republican majority and passed some real shit and put up with some real shit.

I think it might have been harder for me to deal with this sort of "in-country immigrant" status if I had been alive to see JFK, or RFK or MLK (ever notice how all the best last names start with "K") and had seen an America that more closely resembled my image of it. Or even if I had been privy to the grass roots movement that ended the war or brought down Nixon.

But I've never had that - my political consciousness switched on at maybe ten, with Reagan, and I just realized this week that this idea I have of my beliefs and their acceptance by my country had basically never been ratified. So for me that revelation was really crucial.

Plus, my evangelical mom almost tried to pull some underhanded GOP shit on me to suppress my vote, and that frankly has fucked up my head.

[depakid]

131. That was powerful

and I feel like that, too.

It's like a huge burden was lifted off my shoulders- and when I leave to go abroad, I won't look back and I have no regrets. There's a few things I'll miss- but so much more I won't.

I've washed my hands of this whole thing- and when the Bushbots in my family whine and complain- as they will- as they always do- I won't feel the slightest bit of sympathy for them. I warned them what was going to happen to them and their kids- now it's time for them to take their own "personal responsibility" for their situation.

[Blue_Tires]

134. feel the same way...

i just feel completely alone and isolated politically (and I'm in a blue state), but i have a strange sense of freedom...freedom of not caring anymore about the fate of this country...I won't care about troop/civilian casualties, ppl losing jobs, civil rights infringement, guns on the streets, corporate theft, along with undrinkable water and unbreathable air.
I guess i feel that things are truly changed and will never go back to the way they were...Since i became politically active (1994), it seemed that the more time, effort, money, and emotion i invested in local and national races, the more handily my side seemed to lose (in Va)...part of me feels that if we couldn't win this election when there was such a clear choice, we're in big trouble...so now i have no sympathy...i no longer care about trying to understand the other side's position and work out compromise...I will cleave all RW friends and relatives (and anyone else that voted for you-know-who) for good, and i will put an end to buying products from bush-supporting companies...this country deserves exactly what it gets, and when people start to complain, i'm just going to tell them to deal with it, fuckos

[LiberalPersona]

135. I disagree

with your assessment of this.

If you take a look at all the presidential elections since 1972, the percentage margin of the popular vote that republicans win by has been slowly shrinking, and the democrat margin has been slowly rising. Bush won the 2004 election by the lowest popular vote margin percentage since Carter in 1976, and in 2000, was the first president to win without the higher popular vote since 1888.

If you go by election history, democrats are gaining a majority in the country and we will pass them eventually. We just have to play things right so as to not turn people against us early in their life to keep this figure going in our direction.

[sweetheart]

137. Very well expressed

I came to your epiphany in the mid 90's, and have been living in
the UK for the past 7 years. Democracy and liberalism are very
healthy in a good many nations, and i feel no remorse that it has
fallen apart in the US.

When you leave the US, however, there is something you will discover,
that EVERY person you meet will identify you by your accent and,
more than ever whilst living stateside, you will be apologizing for
the crimes of a nation who is yours by passport only.

Post counts don't matter, for any real democrat... one voice, one
person... post counts are for meritocrats, and imperialists who
presume by the right of their colony-size, that they have more
right to be right, than the disenfranchised low post counts.

I thought, for this election period, that i would violate the tenets
of my buddhist life, and speak up, rather than letting silence speak
its ever more purient wisdom. I feel free, like you do, now that
that is over. There was a possibility i might return to live in
the USA, and this election sealed that off.

Its like death, IMO.. In death one surrenders everything, whether
ready or not... and a part of my ego died in this election, that
foolish king canute hubris that fights the rising tide. My dogs
explained to me, in the horrible energy of this election-fraud,
that all that matters is good company, fun walks, smells and the
vigour of nature.

I wish you well wherever your detatchment winds you up.

namaste,
-sweetheart

[jbm]

138. I think this is part of the process...

sometimes all we can do is break the emotional bonds so that the thing we felt connected to can't hurt us anymore. I feel the exact same way actually. I'm just not real sure how I'll handle it.

I could leave the country, or I could adopt the attitude that the little piece of land I live on is a gift from the universe and the fact that it lies within the boundries of the U.S. is irrelevant. I'll just pay no attention to what goes on outside the tiny little world I am quite capable of creating.

I could say screw the country, but continue to fight against certain mindsets just because I can, and I have nothing left to lose. I'll probably go with the last choice, and when the right implodes in a few years, maybe I'll take another look around and see if the US reflects the values and morals that I believe in..and not some self-rightous garbage that turns my stomach.

[bain_sidhe]

140. I share your acceptance, but not your reasoning.

I believe most of the values I hold dear really *are* mainstream, majority values - peace, equality, justice, the responsibility of human beings to care about each other...

But, I also believe that the majority of the people who hold these values, and still vote republican are convinced that somebody else (namely, Democrats) will fight for those values. They can feel "safe" voting on other values that are also (apparently) part of the majority mix - greed and bigotry (in terms of an "us-vs-them-ism"). Those of us who continued to "fight the good fight" to keep social and economic justice from dying completely have simply enabled them to ignore the fact that their votes are contributing to the demise of those things.

Votes must have consequences again. We who have tried to contain the worst excesses of the right wing extremists now in charge of the Republican party have simply insured that the majority of those who vote Republican do not feel - or likely, even see - the consequences of their votes. I think that now they will, and that they should. I am willing to accept that they may, in fact, *like* the consequences. I strongly suspect that they will not, but in either case, I am willing to let them experience the consequences of their vote. There's a *reason* the cliché "experience is the best teacher" IS a cliché. It's because it's more often true than not.

[MostlyLurks]

141. Having Second Thoughts

Maybe it was just a temporary shock thing, or something like that, but I'm starting to feel like its time to get back on the horse.

Maybe it's the number of RW pundits on the news this weekend that said they felt the same way in '60.

Maybe it was the fact that the DLC basically echoed the same idea as me (and I'll be Godamned if I'm going to agree with those fucking people).

Whatever, the case, I'm starting to emerge from my funk.

Thanks to all of you - both in agreement and dissenting - who've added to this debate. It has certainly helped work through some of the problems I had in the immediate aftermath of the election.

I stand behind the kernal at the core of my original post though: we need to start looking at the goals of progressivism from the ground up and examining, in fine detail, where we're losing the ideological war and why.

We need to become as adept at the sound bite and the framing of the debate as the Republicans have become. I sure as hell hope it doesn't take another 30 damn years.

Peace to all.

Mostly.

[Phillycat]

144. Me too.

I will stand and fight. Or, more accurately, continue to plod. Fuck it, in for a penny, in for a pound. I must be a masochist...

[Bridget Burke]

142. The search function works fine now....

And MostlyLurks used this cite in an earlier thread: “Do not suppose that my mission on earth is to spread peace,” he proclaims in Matthew. “My mission is to spread not peace, but division.” (10-34)

Low post counts can, of course, mean that the DU'er is a long-term member who posts with caution. The profile shows the date someone joined--if the profile is not disabled.

[MostlyLurks]

146. I don't remember that. Which thread?

On Edit: It would be quite something if I posted it on my own, because I don't know the Bible at all, except for a few well chosen quotes and basic stories. I would guess that I copied it into my message from someplace upthread and was using it to illustrate a point. Again, I'd appreciate it if you could post a link to the thread. Search still says archive searches are disabled for me, and when I search unarchived, I don't even get *this* thread on my UID, let alone some others that I haven't been active in for a while.

[MostlyLurks]

148. Please ignore, accidental dupe. n/t

[MostlyLurks]

149. Good job taking me out of context.

Sorry if there end up being three of the same posts - I'm having trouble today.

***

The thread to which you refer - I did manage to find it - is here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=103&topic_id=82492

I invite anybody who thinks your "discovery" is a smoking gun to take a look at it.

You've clearly taken that quote out of context. The thread, which I started, contains a link to an article entitled "The Gospel According to Dubya". As is the norm in this type of thread, I cut a few paragraphs from that article and placed them into the message as a "teaser". The Biblical passage quoted is from that article (as in evidence by the fact that it appears in quotes after the link to the article). I did not put it in bold, italics, etc. because it was the first time I had posted an article link and I frankly didn't know what I was doing.

By the way, if you read the article that's linked, it is very critical of the superficial or discordanat way in which Bush (and similar fundamentalists) pick and choose those parts of the Bible that suit them, while ignoring the inconsistencies/contradictions therein.

[Solomon]

143. Now you know how minorities feel.

[MostlyLurks]

147. A good point, Solomon

I thought the same thing, but I was afraid of saying it because I thought it was likely to get me flamed for insinuating something I couldn't possibly understand, etc. etc.

[mtnsnake]

145. Yes! Only for me it was more like an odd sense of relief

"Our views are not those of the country".....that point HAS to hit home. Well said, MostlyLurks. That finally hit home for me last Wednesday, and after I realized it, I was surprisingly relieved. The responsibility for the terrible mess is in their hands from now on, they got what they wanted and they really are the majority. The blood is on them, not us anymore.

If the MAJORITY of people want to invade other countries for oil, if the MAJORITY wants to neglect the environment, if the MAJORITY wants to fall for lies, if the MAJORITY wants to kiss the feet of their fascist leader....then this is THEIR country for now, and they can do as they please because they are the majority.

We have to face the fact that most people in America don't want the same things we do. Watching the worst president in history get elected to a second term by mainstream America is what made this all hit home for me.

This doesn't make me want to stop fighting, though. It just makes me less stressful about it, because there's no guessing anymore about where we stand.

Then again, I'd rather secede in the Northeast and have my own country. Right now I truthfully feel like I have no country, and in a weird kind of way, it's very relieving.

[toddaa]

150. Doing Nothing in the Taoist sense

Before you throw in the towel completely, I suggest you seek out Lao Tzu's Tao Te Ching and read the 63th chapter on the Taoist principle of wu wei.

Practice non-action.
Work without doing.
Taste the tasteless.
Magnify the small, increase the few.
Reward bitterness with care.

See simplicity in the complicated.
Achieve greatness in little things.

In the universe the difficult things are done as if they are easy.
In the universe great acts are made up of small deeds.
The sage does not attempt anything very big,
And thus achieved greatness.

Easy promises make for little trust.
Taking things lightly results in great difficulty.
Because the sage always confronts difficulties,
He never experiences them.


When you fight against the Tao, you increase the difficulty in achieving your goals. The best course of action isn't rigid resistance, but to yield. The rock appears to be strong against the yielding water that runs over it, but in the long run the water finds fissures and cracks in the rock's surface. Over time, the soft and yielding will always triumph over the hard and the rigid.

So I do not reprimand you like some here, but I suggest that you simply live by your own principles. Leave others to their own devices. The three noble treasures of Taoism are mercy, frugality, and humility. All three require the actions of doing nothing. It is in this way that you should choose to live and if we did as such, we would triumph.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

151. I noticed you are assuming bush won the 2000 and the 2004 election

fair and square.

Until that question is settled, all this navel gazing within the party is academic.

[MostlyLurks]

160. I concede the 2000 election.

I had not thought of that in my original post. Even if we ignore the fact that the 2000 *result* was stolen, we won the popular, so I count that as a victory for us.

I've said several times that I think the consistent conpiracist view of all future elections (post 2000) is tantamount to party suicide, though.

[shelley806]

152. I didn't even waste the time to read your post in its entirety...We were

not beaten. Get that through your thick skull. We won the election and this "moral value" administration won by FRAUD!!!!!!!!

WAKE UP AND STFU!!!

[MostlyLurks]

158. STFU?

"Shut the fuck up" because I don't agree with the conspiracy theorists who want to think that every election we lose we actually won? That's a prescription for how to kill off the Democratic party. Read my post above "A Question Then" (post #124) for my response to anybody who tells me to "shut the fuck up" because I'm questiong things other than those they want me to question.

[DemCam]

154. 22% is hardly overwhelming...

But I do have similar feelings. I came of age in the 60s and fought for equal rights in the 70s. I was proud of what we had accomplished. And then along came Reagan and Revisionism and I tuned out and dropped our of politics.

It didn't help that my husband and partner in politics when we married became a Reaganite and mor and more radically conservative, prescribing to the whole banana....anti-welfare, anti-public-education, anti-environment, anti-government, anti-taxes. And now he is happily in bed with the Fundies, tho he is also anti-religion. He loves those weapons systems.

He just said he hoped they privatized the entire government. In a perverse way....so do I. I want to see if all of that rhetoric we've heard the last 25 years translates to policy.

As he said, we're getting ready to find out. Bring it on....because if it doesn't, we can shut them up with all their nonsense.

[Kazak]

155. Hogwash!

Democrats have WON the last two Presidential elections...only to have them stolen away!

[trogdor]

156. A nation of idiots.

[Cheswick2.0]

162. Wow, I didn't know it was possible to have an average IQ lower than the

average IQ. Scary... cause Pa came in 15th and the people around here in my blue county aren't all that smart....just smart enough to go for Kerry 57 percent.
It seems like what the red states need is more wide based influx of blue state genes and similar educational institutions. Maybe some of us should move to red states and along with the already smart and liberal democrats there, educate the masses. It is clear they don't get to hear the truth about politics very often.

[MISSDem]

157. Where do you get all of that? Kerry only lost by

2 and a half percent of the vote (if he lost, indeed). Get real!

[MostlyLurks]

159. My point had nothing to do with margins.

It had to do with the meme, prevalent here on DU, that "liberalism" is actually the majority view of Americans.

I simply now question that meme. I do not question the "rightness" of liberalism but whether it is the majority. And this loss (as well as the others we've had since 68) indicate to me a fundamental flaw in this idea that we're the real American majority. So the margin by which Bush won is irrelvant.

If we're the real majority, why do we seem incapable of proving it? That's what it comes down to. And there are really only three possible explanations:
1. We're not really the majority (anymore?). This is the direction I'm leaning and the basis of my original post.
2. We're the majority but we can't get the votes to reflect it. This is, at the very least, a suspiscious notion because our GOTV effort this year was massive, and we motivated a hell of a lot of people. Bush even motivated "the base" for us by virtue of his sheer terrifying nature. And we still lost, granted not by much, but we still lost.
3. We're the majority but the election system is rigged. See post #124 "A Question Then" for my opinion of the problems with this contention.

Look, I'll listen to any argument anybody wants to throw at me that doesn't rely on simple emotional appeals or calls to vast conspiracies. I'd love to hear a reasonable argument as to how we can still beleive, fervently and without doubt, that we are the great silent majority in this country. All I'm saying is that the survival of liberalism in this country depends on identifying the problems that keep getting us beat. Because if all we've got is "we're getting cheated", then there's no reason to try to change and adapt, and if we don't do that, the last liberal is going to his grave with the words "*I* got cheated" on his lips.

And furthermore, I'd love to know exactly *why* it's so important for liberals to believe they are the majority. Personally, I think it's more important to be on the *right* side of the issues than it is to be in the majority. Why are we so hell bent on the idea that we are both?

[sandnsea]

167. You're right

The election was a real slap in the face. I feel a little better now, but right after the election I truly felt like I was without a country. I still think I feel that way, I'm just adjusting to that new reality. Way too many people voted for Bush for me to think otherwise, whether it was 2% one way or the other. They really want this idiotic fascist theocracy and really do think it's America.

[DeadHead67]

164. That 'odd sense of acceptance' is called DEATH !!!. . . .

. . .This is exactly what the forces of darkness want you to feel. Roll Over! Play Dead! Stick your ass up in the air and let them have their way with you! That's EXACTLY what they will do if you don't fight. During OUR Revolution it was far less than a majority that rebelled and shook off British tyranny. FAR LESS!!! WAKE UP! TO THE BARRICADES!!! (end of rant)

[ChiciB1]

168. YOU SAID EXACTLY WHAT

I wanted to say. If you let the REPUKES DEFINE YOU, then you may as well just change your Party Affiliation!!

I'll NEVER give into my TRUE BELIEFS!! So if you sell, then it's YOUR CONSCIENCE!! Think hard, think very hard about what you're doing!

[cheshire]

170. Nice easy way to absolve all responsiblity. Your younger and you already g

given all. Well for us that aren't willing to give up I say thank your one less we have to help. Just what we need quiters.