Woman's Right to Abortion....DEAD,DEAD,DEAD !!

[drdon326]

SAY HELLO TO THE COAT-HANGER...AGAIN.

[Zynx]

1. If Roe v. Wade is overturned in the next four years, we will win in 2008.

[K-W]

3. Then why didnt we win this election?

Perhaps there just arent enough people willing to vote on choice to make it a winning issue for us.

[DaveofCali]

5. But Bush will have already installed all the extremely conservative judges

[Iris]

21. Yes, but perhaps we can get some progressive legislation - like

adequate family and maternity leaves, decent child care, public schools that work.

[Heddi]

42. ah ha ha ha ha

yeah.

right.

'twould be nice, but it ain't gonna happen unless you're willing to travel to canada or europe

[phish420]

51. ..........BWAHAHAHAHA...thats a good one

OOo, I know, maybe we can get the moral majority to go along with marijuana relegalization while we're at it! LOLOL!!!

[Paxdora]

16. 2008 election? Get real!

By that time all voting will be electronic (via Diebold)and the Thugs will win by a "Moral Majority" landslide.

"Democracy" will be a quaint & distant memory by then...

[phish420]

52. Ill be long gone out of this country by then! nt

[brettdale]

58. agree 100%

Agree 100% by 2008 voting will be electronic and thugs the repugs will keep on winning.

[chimp chump]

54. Don't count on it.

Roe is not the sacred cow some imagine it to be.

If it was overturned, you'd see some states outlaw it. Many others would pass laws to authorize it, some with certain restrictions.

But there would be a few places in the deep South perhaps where you'd have to cross several state lines if you wanted an abortion.

There are also a number of morning-after remedies such as are currently prescribed routinely for rape victims or for a woman who forgot to take precautions. The overturn of Roe would simply mean we'd see a lot more of this but it would be done quietly with a private doctor, not in an abortion clinic. And I simply don't believe that any state will outlaw a procedure to terminate an ectopic pregnancy. It simply will not happen. No one is that radical, whatever you might imagine.

Don't count on Roe to save the Democratic party. It may be weaker than you think.

[jdj]

59. there are pockets of women all over the country with suction

equipment training each other to do abortions. I am not one, but I met one of these women some years ago, and there will be underground abortions going on (as throughout the history of the human race.)

[chimp chump]

64. I've read about them and even seen one on TV.

The one on TV was advocating a book teaching the use of curette (sp?) by amateurs.

I suspect we'll see little enthusiasm for such practices after some women leave their friends bleeding to death in some emergency room, sterile for life.

Abortion can be dangerous and it is a surgery. Even piercings can be dangerous after all. Generally, clinical abortion is pretty safe but when botched or not enough care is taken to account for an individual woman's variance in anatomy, you will have death or sterility or severe complications. This is why women can end up in a hospital, brought by ambulance from an abortion clinic. It may be relatively rare but it does happen.

DIY has a bad history on this one. Just forget the coat hangers and the shop vacs unless you're both pregnant and suicidal.

It is far more likely that you'd see nurses or others doing the backalley thing. But given the economic empowerment of so many women in recent decades, I think you'd see them travel to states where abortion is legal or to offshore clinics or using many of the well-known drugs which can readily induce abortion. And poor women would take advantage of private support groups formed to help them travel to a clinic if needed. There are also some chemotherapy treatments and other drugs which are almost certain to terminate any pregancy. The woman may feel quite ill for a few days but it will end the pregnancy by inducing miscarriage. I would expect to see a comprehensive book listing such drugs published if Roe was overturned. Even now, it's not exactly a secret which drug combinations will induce miscarriage reliably.

[RinaJ]

2. Let them try and do it

Seriously, let them. Right now all the Democratic warning are coming off as nothing more than idle threats.

[drdon326]

10. Sadly...they will.

.

[Straight Shooter]

4. Not for the rich white girls

They will always be "taken care of"

[gauguin57]

11. You mean like Robin Lowman Garner?

?

[msgeri55]

6. roe -v-wade

do you ned one?obviously fundies are willing to feed the war machine with their children,so let them ,that way our kids won't have to go ours can go to college instead!

[ZR2]

7. It didn't happen in the last 4 years

What makes you think it will happen in the next 4 years ?

[GiovanniC]

8. There Weren't Any Supreme Court Vacancies in the Last Four Years

We're looking at probably around 3 in the next four.

Including a new Chief Justice.

[Emboldened Chimp]

12. They've had full control for only two and now they don't have...

an election to worry about. Kiss it goodbye, ladies. Sorry.

[The Magistrate]

9. That Is Unfortunately So, Doctor

There is little doubt the Court will be reshaped into a tool for that purpose over the next several years.

It is necessary to unmask the coded language used in these matters. Abortion is a symbol for anti-abortionists, and what it means is the reimposition of chattel status on women. Whenever the subject comes up, this must be stressed: the real interest of these people is to exert control over women and restrict their lives and choices in all spheres.

The entire question of "moral values" must be tackled head on. It is really a coded phrase for hatred of those that are different from yourself. People must be asked point-blank if they think morality applies to sex only, or if it applies to thievery, fraud, deceit, and killing as well. The fact that the leaders of moral crusade are invariably thieving frauds must be pointed out without cease to their followers. People on the left would do well to read the Gospels; they can be most useful to a left orientation....

"America looked into the abyss, and fifty-one percent said; 'Hmmm...I wonder what's down there....'"

[drdon326]

13. Magistrate....

It will be a sad day when women will be forced into back-alleys
and wind up dead....or worse.

[nodehopper]

15. what's worse than dead?

[Djinn]

61. I don't know what's disturbing me more

the election "result" or agreeing with don??!!??

if it happens make sure all the fundie churches are picketed with life sized gory pictures of women who've died of blood loss or septicaemia.

[mtnester]

18. Ladies, our textbook right now should be The Handmaids Tale

on what to not let happen to us.

Get it right now...for those of you that have read it before, read it AGAIN.

By God, some people of this world yesterday decided my son was less deserving of rights as a citizen (he is gay)...are we going to let it happen to us too?

How does that saying go? First, I watched them come for my neighbors....?

[The Magistrate]

26. That Is Unfortunately True, Ma'am

It is essential that the "Dominionist" and "End Times" ideologies be publicly exposed for what they are: a revolution against liberty and freedom, the most un-American group to aflict our politics in my lifetime. If even a quarter of the energy that has been expended over various lunatic conspiracy theories on the left was devoted to this task, to the unmasking of a real and substantial and verifiable threat to our nation's very life, something might be accomplished.

"Americans looked into the abyss, and fifty-one percent said: 'Hmmm...I wonder what's down there....'"

[FizzFuzz]

43. I think you just gave me the response to use when the FUCKING FUNDIES

twinkle happily at me over their triumph-of-the-will

"People must be asked point-blank if they think morality applies to sex only, or if it applies to thievery, fraud, deceit, and killing as well. "

[The Magistrate]

50. Thank You, Sir

It is the real question. Far too many of these people use "morality" as if it applied to sexual matters only. The real question at the basis of morality is this: when is it right to disregard the well-being of another in favor of your own? Genital friction is only a very small part of this....

"Americans looked into the abyss, and fifty-one percent of them said: 'Hmmm...I wonder what's down there....'"

[jdj]

60. THIS ELECTION WAS STOLEN.

There is no fucking 51%. That is just one more lie.

[Malva Zebrina]

14. I am afraid that will be the case

It is the last holdout of women concerned with control over their own health, lives and bodies and on this they are holding on with their fingernails. :-(

[ender]

17. RvW isnt going anywhere.

sure, there will be lots of noise about doing "something" that amounts to nothing - but it aint going anywhere.

[CityDem]

19. This is such a red herring

Even if Roe vs. Wade is overturned tomorrow, abortion will be legal in most every state. It will be thrown back to the states and most every state in the county except Utah, Idaho, etc. will maintain a woman's right to choose. Do you really expect the state legislatures in Cali, Oregon, Wash, NY, Ill, RI, etc. to ban abortion. At most, some states might ban it (listed above) or put restrictions in place like parental notification.

[Cyrix]

24. Are you for real?

Or are you in massive denial?

In case you haven't noticed these freaks control the MAJORITY of the states.

Not only that - they control congress. In fact they just gained MORE SEATS. It will be amazingly simple for them to pass a federal law banning it.

If you think it's going to be a nice ride until 2008 I would suggest you get a reality check fast. These people ARE going to ban abortion and they are going to do a fuck of a lot more.

[CityDem]

28. Roe vs. Wade

The repubs have controlled congress (house and senate) and the white house for the past 4 years. They didn't even try to pass a bill banning abortion. They were barely able to pass a PBA ban. Bush is not even interested in this issue and only brings it up when asked or when campaigning in some southern state. If Roe v. Wade is overturned, the states will make the laws regarding abortion. Most will keep it legal while some will place some restrictions. All this talk of back alley abortions is nonsense.

[chimp chump]

55. Bush Senior and Barbra....

...were actually very big supporters of Planned Parenthood in its early days. Bush Senior was insrumental in establishing the existing federal support of Planned Parenthood. People need to know that Junior grew up in a household that fully supported abortion rights. Junior's mama believes in the right to abortion. So does his wife.

Think about it. What you should be thinking more about is how the national GOP and Junior would greatly prefer to simply overturn Roe and send it back to the states and let them fight about it so the national GOP can stop carrying water for the pro-lifers.

Overturning Roe would likely happen as a result of a finding that the federal constitution does not explicitly support any position on the privacy of reproductive rights or surgical options a citizen might exercise. If overturned on this basis, it would not establish a right-to-life and therefore you would not see federal courts or the national parties engaged in making policy on the issue. It would become a state-by-state fight, not one subject to federal meddling or to the courts.

I think many people believe wrongly that overturning Roe could only be done by embracing a constitutional right-to-life. But it isn't true and I don't believe the GOP would pursue that legal strategy.

Many GOP leaders have made remarks in the past about the desirability of getting out of the abortion business entirely and dumping it back on the states. Bob Dole in '96 was pretty explicit about how he resented the pro-life albatross being hung around his neck as a candidate. Once rid of the abortion issue at the national party level, the GOP could focus on their real interests, the corporate entities that dominate their agenda and the projection of American geopolitical power.

[The Magistrate]

27. You Need To Get Out More, Sir....

"No one will believe in a conspiracy against the Emperor's life until it has succeeded."

[okieinpain]

20. good, there was a good number of women who voted for W,

let them have their cake.

[Iris]

23. Yep. I'm thinkin' of the club girl at an all night diner in Atlanta, who

was interviewed by the news and said she "just never liked Kerry."

[Cyrix]

25. So you are willing to screw over

the 50% that DIDN'T vote for him? Nice to know we eat our own so well.

[KitSileya]

48. No.

But I've suggested elsewhere, that when SCOTUS turns the abortion decision over to the states,a nd red states ban it, that women who want to travel 'underground railroads' to blue states where it's still legal be aske who they voted for, and refused if they say they voted Bush, or didn't vote.

[chimp chump]

56. Hmmm....

"women who want to travel 'underground railroads' to blue states where it's still legal be aske who they voted for, and refused if they say they voted Bush, or didn't vote."

I'm speechless. This is just thunderously stupid and vengeful. It really is. Gee, you don't suppose they might actually *lie* to you or something... No sensible abortion rights advocate would impose such a policy.

But you are right, you would rather quickly see a support network develop to help transport women from state to state as needed. Perhaps even regular chartered bus service from major cities in the South. Another likely option will be clinics on decent merchant ships with American doctors operating in international waters off the coasts of the South with ferry service. I'm sure abortion groups are already planning how to deploy such networks and where they will be needed.

[Tweed]

22. 55% of voters think that abortion should be at least somewhat legal

I know you mean that its dead because of the Republican control, but it's an interesting stat from the exit polls. http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/pages/results/states/US/P/00/epolls.0.html

[Merlin]

29. Dead. And good riddance!

Abortion will be lifted from our backs very soon, clearing the single most significant obstacle to majority support for our party and for the broad sweep of its remaining agenda. We liberals are now known--across the vast plains of middle America--as "baby killers."

The Democratic Party does not exist for the purpose of defending abortion rights. It exists for the purpose of governing this nation. The nation--with the support of evidently the majority of white women--has made it clear it does not support abortion rights. It will have to live with the consequences of that stupidity. It will have to learn the lesson all over again.

Meantime, our party is now relieved from the responsibility to keep throwing ourselves on this terrible sword election after election. It is now up to the women's movement to find a solution to this issue that will enjoy the support of a majority of the electorate.

[Mike Niendorff]

57. I hate to say it, but there may be truth to what you've just posted.

OTOH, I think this is also why the Republicans will hold off on Roe v. Wade until literally EVERY other item on their agenda has been rammed through. They may be insane, but they're not stupid.


MDN

[Djinn]

62. if the chances of me ever needing access to a safe abortion

were like yours, NILL, I might be as happy as you seem to be

[bicentennial_baby]

30. Got into a screaming match with my classmates this morning

Fucking anti-choice catholic scum that they are....They're like "I don't like Bush either, but I hope they do overturn Roe vs Wade. How can you murder another human? I'll be soooo happy if they overturn it."

[MADem]

37. How can you murder another human?

Your answer to them should be:

With bombs, with bullets, with the lack of an interceptor vest or an armored vehicle.

With lethal injection in our prisons, or Old Sparky, the electric chair.

With failure to provide health care to our most vulnerable citizens.

With filthy air, filthy water, mercury and pesticides. With an unsafe food supply. With untested medicines and unsafe vaccines.

There's lots of ways to murder our fellow humans. The only difference is, the GOP thinks that the gestational period is off-limits, but after that, there's no bag limit. Hunt away!!! Hypocrites!

[bicentennial_baby]

38. That was my essential response

hence the screaming match aspect of it.

[Walt Starr]

31. If RvW is not overturned within four years

The fundamentalists bolt the GOP.

They've been waiting for this moment for more than thirty years. They've been promised. If it doesn't get done, the GOP is done.

Count on RvW dying.

[ibegurpard]

32. The least of our problems

We have bigger things to worry about. Fascists who want to remake this entire country over are now in control. Loss of choice on abortion is a drop in the bucket.

[bicentennial_baby]

33. Maybe to you

Not so for others

[ibegurpard]

34. That was not an attempt to minimize the issue

It was an attempt to get people to realize that we have a lot more to worry about than the loss of the right to choose on just abortion. We are now in danger of losing the checks and balances of our very SYSTEM OF GOVERNMENT. All else flows from that.

[bicentennial_baby]

39. I know, I'm just upset

I had a fight with some classmates today who are overjoyed at the thought of overturning Roe v Wade.

[Amaya]

35. "Loss of choice on abortion is a drop in the bucket"

because you're a man. end of story.

[ibegurpard]

36. Do you not worry about the threat to our VERY SYSTEM OF GOVERNMENT?

We have FASCISTS IN CONTROL! OUR LIVES are at risk! Not just abortion but EVERYTHING is now on the table!

Edit: By no means am I suggesting that we suddenly have to embrace the anti-choice position. But we have got to make people understand how many more fundamental things are at risk than choice on abortion.

[Heddi]

45. No---because with abortion goes SO much more

As a woman of child-bearing age (who does not plan to have children and is taking a reliable precaution to ensure that doesn't happen), my concern is that WHEN abortion goes so does:

State-paid birth control for the poor

planned parenthood clinics

distribution of contraceptives--if not in general (I don't think they would necessarily go that far), but I believe that insurance companies would have heavy pressure to not cover them. I believe that restrictions will be placed on them (if under 18, must have parental notification, etc)

sex education of ALL kinds (of course except for abstinance only, which iis pretty much the norm anyways)

ALLLLLL of my reproductive rights are being threatened INCLUDING RvW. My contraceptive choices, affordability, and availablity are up for grabs. I bet my bottom fucking dollar that it will become LEGALLY ACCEPTABLE for pharmacists to refuse to fill birth control prescriptions. You will see MANY women who can legally get an RX, but can't find a Dr to write it, or a pharmacy to fill it, or an insurance plan to pay for it.

As a woman, the freedom to make ALL Decisions regarding my reproductive system, health and plans are up for grabs. That is *THE* most important issue to me, and MANY more women.

WHen they take MY choice...what else do I have left? What other "options" will be closed to me...AND YOU????

By taking away (imo) one of the MOST precious rights we have---the right to privacy, and taking away ANOTHER of the MOST precious rights we have--the right of free choice---what do we have left? NOTHING.

What other choices will we now not be allowed to make? What other walls of privacy will be knocked down?

This may not be important to you on the surface, but brother, your life depends on it just as much as mine does.

[ibegurpard]

47. "What other choices will we now not be allowed to make?"

This is the point I'm trying to make and I'm sorry that I'm not able to get it across the way I'm intending.

[Heddi]

49. This is how I misunderstood you:

But we have got to make people understand <b>how many more fundamental things are at risk than choice on abortion.</b>

I was reading you as saying that there were more important things THAN abortion, instead of there are more important things IN ADDITION to Abortion.

I'm sorry if it seemed that i was yelling at you---it seems we're on the same page. :cheers:

I'm very numb right now. As a woman, as a student, as an American, as a citizen of the world.....

I remember when the election was finally 'selected' back in 2000. I was at work when it was announced (even though everyone knew on election night how it would eventually go) and I just sighed and said "Everything's gonna be different now" and it was, but I couldn't imagine it really getting "THAT BAD"...but it did. And I remember on 9/11 as I sat in my apartment in Seattle and watched planes repeatedly slamming into buildings and people chooising between fire and the side walk, and I said "Everything's gonna be really different now" and it was, and I saw how much worse it could GET. I thought it was bad BEFORE 9/11 and I had fear in my heart about how bad it would be. And my fear was NOTHING compared to reality.

Today I was driving home from school, listening to NPR. I picked up right at the end of JK's speech....I didn't know he was conceeding, but I felt he was. The mood was too somber. It sounded like he was crying--not joyful. Sad. Nno cheers.

I drove home, and thought "Everything's completely changed now. We can never go back" and I just have such sadness in my heart not just for our country, but every single person on this planet. THEY are just as affected by this....evil evil evil man as I am.

Things are going to be bad. I'm so blank right now. I fear for us. Maybe you were right in the way I was interpreting you before....Abortion is the LEAST of our worries. LIVING through the next 4 years is my main goal right now.

This is a low point in American, and World history. Remember these days, folks. Keep the clippings and hide away your sedetious materials. One day, we may walk from the dust and we must tell our children, and they must tell their children about the horror that we saw unfold twice before our eyes. Teach them to be a nation of people who stand up for themselves and what they believe in. Not to cower.

The next four years shall be quite interesting, I believe.

[FizzFuzz]

46. Guess What? If men realized that abortion is life or death for women

and that control over her body is tantamount to release from biologically guaranteed slavery, AND IF THEY CARED,
then these imMoral Majority fascists would h ave been taken seriously and blocked AGES AGO. And if somehow, an RW opportunist like Bush DID get near the Presidency, he too would have been stopped before the damage was catastrophic.

[Heddi]

53. There are many women, too, that just don't care

They're of the "I think Abortion is nasty, so therefore it should be illegal" crowd.

Or the "I'm happy with kids, therefore birth control shouldn't be covered by insurance" people.

I KNOW women like this. I've lived around them my whole life. They're no different from the men. They don't see it as slavery no matter how much you SHOW them how it is.

They don't see it as an errosion of choice, because they don't believe that choice should be available to begin with.

I recently took a class: Sociology of Marginalized Groups. We dealt with race, gender, age, class issues. It was a required class for my major, and I was in class with TONS of girls---mostly 18-22---who were just so complacent about the strides made FOR THEM---the right to vote, the right to have contraceptives, the right to have abortion, the right to work outside the home, the right to get divorced, to own property---they didn't give a shit.

They sat in class and filed their nails and smaked their gum and some of them even verbalised that feminism was dead because we got our rights so what more did we want? The teacher CONSTANTLY told them that you have to FIGHT TO KEEP THEM because once the chance is there to take WOMEN's rights, or CIVIL RIGHTS, or RELIGIOUS RIGHTS away, they will be stripped.

But these girls didn't care. And this is in "liberal" Seattle. Hmph....many of the "Dyed in the wool" Liberals were libs in name only. They were more than happy to spout granola plattitudes as they drove around in their jetta's and wear free-range cotton underwear. When it came down to FIGHTING---fuck that! It interfered with their Coffee break :eyes: Now---I'm not stereotyping NW liberals or liberals in general---I met the most wonderful activists for peace, justice, and solidarity in SEattle---but they FOLLOWED UP on their beliefs---unlike the little girls I was in class with who could never understand burning a bra, because they, like, cost like $50 each at Vikky's Secret, dontchaknow :eyes:

[Djinn]

63. why it almost always men

who feel this way - could it be because the thought of an expensive dangerous illegal abortion doesn't hold quite as much immediate fear for you?

[JohnDoe1]

40. Oh, no doubt

With this many aged justices, there will certainly be some new appointments. Let's just hope that the moderate/liberal ones will be able to hold out a little longer before retiring.

[DURHAM D]

41. The GOP can not get rid of R v. W. It is their best wedge issue.

They can not let this issue be resolved. They will lose their zealots if that happens.

Bush will be under a lot of pressure from his base to appoint justices that will turn it over - but the party bosses won't let him.

[Walt Starr]

44. I disagree completely, RvW must go or they lose the RR

Seriously. The RR has waited for thirty years. They will not abide waiting any longer. Either RvW goes from the nation, or they will go from the GOP.

Bush has no choice, he must appoint radically anti-choice judges and justices. Most likely they will be confirmed in the next Senate.

If RvW is not overturned within the next four years, the religious right will never again trust the GOP.