Anyone who thinks Howard Dean would have done better is kidding themselves

[dolstein]

I'm sure a lot of people around here are going to start arguing that the Dems have to move even further to the left. But you don't have to be a genius to figure out that there isn't a single state Kerry lost because he wasn't liberal enough, and there were several states he lost because he was too liberal. I just wish some of these people would do the math before the decide to commit political suicide.

[Doosh]

1. true, but Gephardt might've

A northern Dem will never win

[Phillycat]

2. Unnecessary.

At least wait until tomorrow. This is in poor taste.

[dolstein]

4. I've already seen one "Dean for DNC Chair" post

If people are going to start talking crazy, I'm going to start talking sense.

[WI_DEM]

13. What is wrong with that, Dolstein?

Nobody in that post was advocating Dean as a better candidate for president than Kerry, but as a DNC--and now you start this little flame. You like rousing things around here don't you?

[lastliberalintexas]

21. How the heck is that related to your flamebait?

The poster simply said s/he thought Dean would do a good job as the DNC chair and made no mention of Kerry. If it was a jab at anyone, it was Terry MacAuliffe- deservedly so in his case.

[IrateCitizen]

3. Zzzzzzzzzzzzz...

:boring:

Utterly predictable post, dolstein.

[dolstein]

18. Yes, my speaking the truth is utterly predictable

Just as your decision to ignore the hard truth is utterly predictable.

If the Dems want to walk off the proverbial cliff, than can decide to nominate another northeastern liberal. The results will be the same, even worse.

I'm not saying Kerry couldn't win. He nearly did. But his liberal positions, elite background, and regional ties made it an uphill battle. The fact Kerry nearly won in spite of all these disadvantages is quite impressive, and I'm not faulting him on his campaign. He did about as much is he could do. But the fact is, if the Democrats want a realistic shot at winning, they need to nominate a candidate with a better shot at picking off a few red states. New Hampshire alone isn't enough.

[March of Time]

5. Dean the leftist is a myth...

He's a radical centrist with a populist touch.

I think of him as Jean Chrétien without the corruption and language mangling...lol

[NYCGirl]

6. The problem in your argument is that Dean is NOT further to the left.

If you think he is, you're buying into the media lies.

And Howard Dean worked harder than anyone to help get Kerry elected.

Other than that, there's no need to be taking shots at each other right now.

[shawcomm]

24. Just think if we could have had Howard Dean

working to get Howard Dean elected.

FUCK! Fucking stupid ass rethugs and one big FUCK YOU to Kerry for rolling us over in his place.

[dolstein]

25. Yes he is

You can say "up is down" or "black is white" all you want. But repeating a lie doesn't make it the truth.

I agree that Dean worked hard. But to suggest that he worked harder than Kerry himself, or John Edwards, or Michael Whouley or Joe Lockhart is just more self-delusion. Dean isn't the messiah.

[NYCGirl]

38. I'm not suggesting he worked harder than anyone, nor am I saying he's the

messiah.

But his positions were not and are not "more left" than the Democratic Party. The DLC perhaps...

[WI_DEM]

40. You did yourself proud in this post didn't you?

You act like your responding to something other people are advocating on this board, and you start a flame-bait to divide people. Find for us all the "Dean would have won" posts that this post is supposed to be refuting. If you can't then look yourself in the mirror and ask why you felt it necessary to try to pit one group against another on this sad day. Unfortunately your post will probably lead to some of those.

[lancdem]

7. I agree

Edwards might've been more competitive in those states.

[theboss]

8. I can't think of a state that Kerry lost which Dean may have won.

And I doubt Dean could have carried PA.

[WI_DEM]

20. This post by Dolstein is nothing but flame

People have not been going around all night saying Dean would run a better campaign than Kerry or done better. Now he comes out with this little gem.

[PNsC]

9. Kerry lost, How could Dean have done worse????

Kerry lost/quit. We lost more senate and House seats. How could Dean have been worse?

[BearFlagDemocrat]

10. They don't need to move to the left, just reframe the debate.

Why is it that ** gets 51% of the vote, even though only 20-30% of the population agree with the GOP platform? Because they've been better at obfuscating their positions and hiding their real agenda. Dems have rolled over and allowed the GOP to make everything from "liberal" to "taxes" a dirty word. *That's* what needs to change.

[LSK]

11. Dean would have been better!

No flip-flop isssues

No Swift boat crap

He was right about Iraq from the very beginning.

The media screwed him in Iowa.

He balanced budgets in Vermont while giving health care to all children.

[RogueTrooper]

44. Dean would have had his own problems to content with

and his own strength's to be attacked.

Dean was already under attack for being a flip-flopper. The Republicans say this about every Democrat. John Kerry should not be singled out for being a victim of this scurrilous attack.

But I agree with you about the Iraq War. Dean had a lot of strength with that position. He had the best narrative frame of all the primary candidates.

As for Iowa. We are repsonsible for our own defeat. The scream was just unfortunate; being a symbol of our failure, rather than the cause.

[niceypoo]

12. Dean would have smoked Bush

Thank the DNC for ruining his chances

[Bjornsdotter]

14. As a Dean supporter...

....I don't necessarily think that Dean would have won...but I do think he would have fought harder.

Cheers,
Kim :toast:

[mzmolly]

15. CAN WE CUT THE DEAN CRAP. NOT ONE OF HIS SUPPORTERS HAS SAID

HE WOULD HAVE DONE BETTER.

MODS: Please lock this shit?

[ScreamingMeemie]

22. Agreed mzmolly. Shame on DU. Quit scapegoating Dean supporters assholes.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

26. I'm not gonna fight with my partners, I agree

[dolstein]

29. There are a few posts here that say exactly that.

NT

[lastliberalintexas]

33. You got a cite for that?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

16. there might be a better time to discuss this...

maybe if the ticket was flipped we would do better...


I'll give JFK his props... He used Bush* as a tackling dummy in those debates...

[Armstead2]

17. Bullshit

Kerrey didn't lose because he was too "liberal." He lost because he was afraid to admit he is a liberal, and let Bush set the terms.

Using your definition of "pragmatic' we should all just become born-again fascists and concede the field entirely.

[Karmadillo]

19. Yet another preemptive strike we don't need.

n/t

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

23. This isn't about Kerry or Dean or any of the fine candidates we had

This would have been dirty regardless. This is a referendum on propaganda and fundamentalism. There are a million tiny churches in neighborhoods all across America where people are brainwashed into thinking a zygot should have more rights than a black person, a gay person or a liberal. Unless we can get a grip on the slide towards that form of extremism, we are doomed.

[lastliberalintexas]

36. Very good point Teena

And I can't wait to see the fundies try to collect on this debt the repubs now owe them! Can you imagine the wealthy, elitist repub women when they find out that they want Griswold overturned?

[JI7]

27. we don't need this shit.

[RogueTrooper]

28. As a candidate, yes I do

However, He would have had to, and should of (IMHO), replaced most of his senior team with better talent. He should have never let the left use the Internet to highjack his campaign in the way that they did. My obervations, during our day in the sun, was that moderate Republican's responded very well to Dean and his message. I noticed that these same Republicans did not respond nearly as positivly to any of the other primary candidates except Wes Clark.

I believe that the most important thing that Dean did was bring the writings of George Lakoff to the attention of the Democratic mainstream. Dean only rode the Interet wave; his real genius was his language and I believe that language would have given Bush a run for his money.

[montana500]

30. Dean would of lost on his ski trip deferment Nm

nm

[Cuban_Liberal]

31. Worst. Timing. Ever.

Civil war is one thing our party does NOT need, thank you very much!

:grr:

[Nederland]

32. I agree

Dolstein, you are always a voice of sanity on this board.

[L84TEA]

34. I don't know

I am wondering if Kerry is a fucking Freeper. I know I will probably get burned for this. But this is how I feel.

[ladjf]

41. S & K

[depakid]

35. You're kidding yourself

It's people who played "the middle" who lost this thing. Get a clue. How many times do you need to have your head banged against the wall?

[Sushi-Lover]

37. I was a Dean supporter

I don't think he would have done better (I think he would have done worse, for various reasons that aren't related to his quality as a human being). That being said, it is fairly nasty of you to pre-emptively lash out at a point of view that hasn't even been voiced. It is almost as if you want to bring back the strife of the primarys, by bringing this sort of thing up right now (stirring the pot, so to speak).

The party should not move in terms of left or right, but it dearly needs a facelift, imho.

[Kitsune]

39. Kerry too liberal.

Jesus christ, that makes me sick. I could barely bring myself to vote for him because he was so far to the right of me.

I need to get out of this place...

[JHBowden]

42. Lock this crap.

No circular firing squad from me today.

[killbotfactory]

43. Liebermania 2008!

(expletive deleted) yourself.

[Kahuna]

45. Amen to that, Dolstein. They were going to smear what ever

nominee we put up.

Warner/Obama in '08!

[whirlygigspin]

46. that's not the point at all

Yes many of us would have preferred Dean, but that makes no difference. You think simply moving further to the left will be the answer?--with this election we tried to keep the nation from hitting the iceburg of debt that Bush has created--Now, it's going to hit a catastrophy of gigantic proportions.

Oil is already up past $50 bucks a barrel today, this re-election is going to drive America into the toilet,...cause China ain't gonna pay for Shrubs craziness forever, and the rest of the world hates him....

Go get some Euros.

America is headed for the scrap pile.

[FubarFly]

47. It's not a question of left vs. center. It never was.

It's a question of who we allow to frame the debate.

As long as they control the media and the machines, it won't matter who we run. The media turned Kerry into a villian with enough of the population that voter fraud was possible. Whether Kerry's positions were predominently center, right, or left was in the end irrelevant. They reach the mainstream quicker and more effectively than we do- regardless of platform.

[TedsGarage]

48. We now have a base

I don't think anyone would have done better. People made up their minds on this election four years ago. We all knew we were voting Democratic long before we had a nominee, and Bush's supporters all knew they were voting for Bush. The battle lines were drawn in 2000, and nobody moved an inch.

The story of the last two elections is that we now have a BASE. These were not McGovern, Mondale or Dukakis defeats. We have a group of states that will vote Democratic NO MATTER WHAT, just as the Republicans have their Solid South. All we need to do is add one state, and we run this country. What we need to do is stick to our message, stick to our base, and persuade Ohio, Arizona, New Mexico, Nevada and Colorado that the Republicans are the party of the far-out, right-wing fringe. The young people aren't nearly as racist or homophobic as their parents, so the future is on our side.

[Moderator]

49. locking

flamebait