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dd123 Donating Member (226 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-17-04 04:02 PM
Original message
Question for Clark supporters re the SOA
Do you honestly feel that Clark will be able to change public perception on the SOA?

Personally, I think the meme that the SOA is a school for thugs is too ingrained in conventional wisdom to turn it around, especially after those Nuns were arrested for protesting it.

Secondly, do you think it is a good idea for him to defend it?

Wow...just had a thought. This could be spun as Clark supports dictators and that's why he didn't want to remove Saddam Hussein.

Yikes.




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pinkpops Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-17-04 04:03 PM
Response to Original message
1. what's the SOA?
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Dookus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-17-04 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. exactly....
I would venture that fewer than 4% of Americans even have any idea what the SOA is.

It's a bugaboo for a percentage of the far left only.
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Clark4Prez Donating Member (507 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-17-04 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Well said
Dookus,

You are right, this is a small issue, certainly not one that Rove would use should Clark win the nomination.

I have read alot of your posts, keep up the good work.
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Cuban_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-17-04 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. If Clark is the nominee.
America WILL know what the School of the Americas is, because KKKarl Rove will see that they do.
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Dookus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-17-04 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Let me get this straight...
the present administration will attack Clark, who is a private citizen, on the SOA, even though the current administration backs it.

That stretched credulity.
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Cuban_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-17-04 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. Not really.
Edited on Sat Jan-17-04 04:17 PM by Cuban_Liberal
Who said they have to be consistent? The Rovian smear machine is just as well-prepared to deal with Gen. Clark as they are with anyone else, Dookus. His aura of invincibility is an illusion--- he is just as vulnerable to KKKarl's evil efforts as any candidate we have.
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mikehiggins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-17-04 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #6
13. SOA is fifty years old.
That means it was in operation during Eisenhower's term, JFK's, LBJ's, Nixon's, Ford's, Carter's, Reagan's, Bush's, Clinton's and now Bush's.

How is Rove going to spin that one into an attack on Clark?

The only way he could do that is to have Bush close it down entirely, and they just aren't going to do that.

Once the primaries are over you won't hear a word about SOA.

Until Clark closes it down in 2005.
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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-17-04 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #6
17. The S.O.A was most notorious for abuses that happened
Under Republican Administrations, notably Ronald Reagan when he was obsessed with fighting Communists in Central America and backing loose canons like Ollie North, that's when a lot of the most ugly things went down. I don't exactly expect Rowe or anyone else on the Republican side to go around trying to dredge up dirt on the S.O.A. The School of the Americas might be called a "wedge issue", most effectively played to divide Democrats during the Primary season.
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dd123 Donating Member (226 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-17-04 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. The question is not how many Americans know what the SOA is
now...the question is how many will know if Clark is the nominee.

The thing about Karl Rove/Bush is that they will do anything anything to win...including using stuff that they themselves are ok with against Clark.

The object would be to keep progressives from voting for Clark. The SOA is repugnant enough that, if advertised, it could turn off a lot of people.
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Dookus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-17-04 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. that makes no sense...
Presumably the current administration supports the SOA. And yet they'd attack Clark on it, even though Clark has been very outspoken about what its mission SHOULD be and has promised to reform it if necessary?
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dd123 Donating Member (226 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-17-04 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #9
18. My guess is...they set up a 527, call it "nuns against torture"
and ramp up huge amounts of ads.

Yup...I can see it now.
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-17-04 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #18
26. It would backfire on Bush as well
They'll never touch this issue in a million years. They won't even sponsor a secret ramping up of bad PR on the SOA, because it tars them just as well.

This is a non-issue. Why do we have to have four threads a day about the SOA???
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Diego360 Donating Member (164 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-17-04 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #2
31. Not just the "far left"
I'm a Clark supporter, but that doesn't mean I surrender my intelligence or ethics in service of his campaign. On this issue General Clark is simply wrong. 100% wrong.

Am I switching? No way. Clark is still the best hope for the Democratic Party and the USA and he will be an extraordinary President. But he's not infallible and his support of the SOA proves that.
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MIMStigator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-17-04 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. i think it's the same thing as Mena
:shrug:
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dd123 Donating Member (226 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-17-04 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. SOA = School of the Americas
OK, here is the 1st source I found that wasn't a socialist type website

http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/40/025.html

Close School of Americas; Release jailed protestors
Rep. Joe Kennedy press advisory. 27 September, 1996
WASHINGTON-- U.S. Rep. Joseph P. Kennedy II (D-Mass), citing new documents linking the U.S. Army School of the Americas to training in murder and torture, today renewed calls on the Clinton Administration to shut down the facility.

The 8th District Representative also urged the release of three protesters imprisoned for demonstrating at the school.

"Fifty years ago this month, the U.S. Army School of the Americas opened its doors in Panama," said Congressman Kennedy during a press conference on Capitol Hill. "I come here today, a half century later, to say it's time to shut the school down."

Congressman Kennedy, joined by Reps. Marty Meehan (D-Mass.), Carolyn Maloney (D-NY) and Sam Farr (D-Calif.) said recent revelations by the Pentagon that torture manuals were used in the school's curriculum were the "smoking gun" justifying closure of the facility located in Ft. Benning, Georgia.

--I think that because it sounded so bad back then, you really can't talk about reforming it because the stigma never goes away.

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corporatewhore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-17-04 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #5
15. The quaker orgs and catholic orgs
i think are the groups most responsible of highlighting gross human rights violations of the SOA and are the main advocaters and campaigners for bringing it down
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Dookus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-17-04 04:17 PM
Response to Original message
11. Can you tell me which candidates
support shutting it down entirely?
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corporatewhore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-17-04 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #11
16. Dennis Kucinich
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Dookus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-17-04 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. Is he the only one?
If so, why should we be concerned about this issue only as it pertains to Clark? What about Dean, Kerry, Gephardt, Edwards, Lieberman, et. al.?
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-17-04 04:29 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. Gephardt as I said voted to condemn it
I know what youre getting at and I think its the right thing to. Until then, I say another plus for Kucinich on opposing SOA. I think Clark gets the most flack is because, hes on record supporting it and spoke to the grads. I dont know about the others.
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-17-04 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #11
21. Kucinich dookus
Has the endorsement of a leading critic of the SOA. Congressman Gephardt with Congressman Kucinich voted to condemn the school. I dont have a link but DK for sure will shut it down. I dont know about hte others.
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Jerseycoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-17-04 04:17 PM
Response to Original message
12. Earlier today thread with SOA info
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wiley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-17-04 04:18 PM
Response to Original message
14. Clark tried to change the organization
Even us left wing supporters of Wesley Clark recognize that his efforts to address and change the curriculum had an impact, although after Clark left his efforts were pretty much overtaken by the torture teaching advocates. The only people who might try to spin this are most likely those who currently fear Clark getting credit for what he tried to accomplish. I think Democrats should applaud his efforts.
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dd123 Donating Member (226 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-17-04 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #14
23. OK. Are you telling me that Clark actually taught or had a role
at the SOA?

Exactly what kind of relationship did he have with them?

This is more involved than I thought.
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Mattforclark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-17-04 04:25 PM
Response to Original message
19. Response
"Do you honestly feel that Clark will be able to change public perception on the SOA?"

Most of the public has no perception of the SOA whatsoever to begin with, so yes, he can change it to the extent that it exists.

"Personally, I think the meme that the SOA is a school for thugs is too ingrained in conventional wisdom to turn it around, especially after those Nuns were arrested for protesting it.

Secondly, do you think it is a good idea for him to defend it?"

If there is no evidence that the SOA is currently teaching torture (but is, on the contrary teaching about human rights), then there is no reason to advocate closing it down. I have not seen any such evidence. I think that it is good for a presidential candidate to approach such questions rationally.

"Wow...just had a thought. This could be spun as Clark supports dictators and that's why he didn't want to remove Saddam Hussein.

Yikes."

Ad shows picture of Slobadon Milosevic. Skips to pictures of Kosovars fleeing from the Serbs. Quotes from prominent Republicans appear on the screen. The word 'hypocrisy' appears on the screen in big red letters. Ominous music plays. etc...
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dd123 Donating Member (226 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-17-04 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #19
25. Ads won't be coming from Bush, they'll have a front organization...
a 527.

This is why Clark taking matching funds is such a bummer of an idea. Clark will be unable to directly counteract anything for 3 whole months. THIS is when Bush will pound him silly.

He will be unable to coordinate a response with his allys.

He will be
Defenseless...
Unarmed...
and hoping a white knight named "moveon" will save him...
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tishaLA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-17-04 04:34 PM
Response to Original message
24. First, I think Clark is wrong about SOA
and I say that as an adament supporter.

Second, I think it is not going to be an issue in the campaign. Chimpy cannot make it an issue.

Third, I would like him to denounce it, but if he continues to defend it, I will still support him. I recognize that all candidates have flaws...This is one of Clark's.
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-17-04 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. Well Said, Ma'am
This is not an issue that will matter to anyone, except to persons of lefy sentiments who already ought to have more than enough reason to devote their whole energies to the defeat of the criminals of the '00 Coup, and so should be willing to ignore this matter should Gen. Clark be the nominee of the Democratic Party.
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Maddy McCall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-17-04 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #24
28. Exactly...Bush can't rip Clark
Clark negates all the things that Bush can rip other candidates for.

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wiley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-17-04 04:57 PM
Response to Original message
29. Facing questions, Clark backs Army school
Clark told the woman who questioned him in Concord. "If you find anything in that curriculum material or anything that's taught there that looks in any way remotely connected with human rights abuse or torture, you let me know, and I promise you, we'll close the School of the Americas when I'm president," he said.

Facing questions, Clark backs Army school
By Joanna Weiss, Globe Staff, 1/17/2004
http://tinyurl.com/2o2a2

CONCORD, N.H. -- Retired General Wesley K. Clark sometimes downplays his Army background, and criticizes the military's "don't ask, don't tell" policy on gays. But there is one military institution he vigorously defends: the controversial academy once known as the US Army School of the Americas.

Opposition to the school, which trains military officers from Latin American countries, has long been a cause celebre among some Democrats and liberal activists, who say the academy has trained some of the most notorious criminals of the region and teaches skills that Latin American armies sometimes use against their own citizenry. Supporters of the school point to reforms from the 1990s, and say its courses teach foreign soldiers about democracy and human rights.

But many critics have not wavered in their opposition, and voters on the campaign trail -- in New Hampshire and elsewhere -- have been questioning Clark about his support.

Clark never headed the school but had dealings with it when he led the US Southern Command from 1996 to 1997. He delivered a graduation speech there in 1996 and has praised the school before Congress. George Bruno, the cochairman of Clark's New Hampshire campaign and a former ambassador to Belize, was a paid adviser to the school when it reopened with a new charter in 2001.

Now, on the stump, Clark strongly defends the school, without denying that some graduates have committed atrocities in their home countries.

At a retirement home in Concord this month, one woman told Clark that the school's graduates have been accused of murder. Clark responded that when white-collar criminals are arrested for fraud, nobody faults their alma mater.

"There's been a lot of rotten people who've gone to a lot of rotten schools in the history of the world," Clark said. "And a lot of them went to this school. But a lot of them have gone to Harvard Business School and a lot of other places."

The US Army School of the Americas, created in 1946, has been located since the 1960s in a building at Fort Benning, Ga., and trains 800 to 1,000 Latin American military officers each year, in courses that last from six weeks to one year. Former Panamanian leader General Manuel Noriega is a graduate, along with some of the most notorious criminals of Latin America, critics say. Nineteen graduates also were involved in the killings of seven Jesuit priests and two of their coworkers in El Salvador in 1989.

Allegations against the school intensified in 1996, after the Pentagon declassified a report that said manuals used there in the 1980s advocated fighting insurgents with execution, blackmail, kidnapping, and torture.

In 1997, as commander in chief of the US Southern Command, Clark praised the school before the Senate Armed Services Committee, saying its mission had changed since the Cold War days. "This school is the best means available to ensure that the armed forces in Latin America and the armies in Latin America understand US values and adopt those values as their own," Clark said at the time.

But some members of Congress, including Massachusetts' late Representative J. Joseph Moakley and former Representative Joseph P. Kennedy II, pressed for legislation to close the school. In 2000, Congress did so. Weeks later, a new school -- the Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation -- reoponed in the same building.

The new institute has an oversight board that includes members of Congress and academics, said Lee Rials, a spokesman for the school. He said the law also requires the school to offer human rights training and mandates student trips to see US government in action. The school also offers tours to the public.

But opponents insist the school should be shut down, and they continue to gather thousands for annual protests at Fort Benning, organized by a Washington-based group called SOA Watch. Actor Martin Sheen is among those who have been arrested for trespassing there; nuns and priests are often among the arrested, as well.

US Representative James P. McGovern, a Democrat of Worcester, introduced a bill last March to shut down the school, cosponsored by 102 representatives, including Dennis J. Kucinich of Ohio and Richard A. Gephardt of Missouri -- both candidates for the Democratic presidential nomination this year. Senator John F. Kerry, another candidate, signed on to a Senate bill to shut down the school, introduced in 1998, according to McGovern's staff.

The school has "become a symbol that represents all of the things we don't want people to think of us in Latin America," said McGovern, who has endorsed Kerry in the presidential race. "It's a stain on our human rights record, and it seems to me that at a time when we're trying to lift up our credibility around the world, especially in the area of human rights, it would be a very powerful statement" to close it.

In New Hamspshire and Wisconsin, Clark has defended the school to questioners. "We are teaching police and military people from Latin America human rights," he said last week in Concord. "And if we didn't bring them in and teach them human rights, they wouldn't be able to learn human rights anywhere."

On the stump, Clark tells critics that Bruno will take them to visit the school, although he sometimes misidentifies Bruno as a board member.

"He's on the board. He'll be happy to take you down there," Clark told the woman who questioned him in Concord. "If you find anything in that curriculum material or anything that's taught there that looks in any way remotely connected with human rights abuse or torture, you let me know, and I promise you, we'll close the School of the Americas when I'm president," he said.

But if "you find nothing wrong you see these officers and noncommissioned officers in there learning about human rights, I'd like you to change your position."

ADVERTISEMENT
 
© Copyright 2004 Globe Newspaper Company.
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wiley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-17-04 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. How timely
Sorry about the length, but it's important to actually get some real-time response from Wesley Clark about this issue. It seems as if the other Democratic caandidates are making it an issue. Kudos to all of them for not waffling or back-pedaling about where they stand. If it becomes a problem, a President Clark would shut it down. I had no idea that Martin Sheen was so involved with Howard Dean's campaign. I hope the Democrats have the opportunity to debate it and actually do something about it if need be. No, the Bush administration is not going to attack Wesley Clark for this. Maybe those people who ran those nasty ads against Howard Dean in Iowa might, but the RNC has actually taken to outright slander and libel they are so afraaid of Wesley Clark.
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funky_bug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-17-04 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #30
32. Excellent post
This is a good piece, and I have bookmarked this link as I am sure the issue will continue to come up again and again. If Gephart and Kucinich stay in the race, it will continue to be brought up. Quite possibly, with Sheen backing Dean, it will continue to come up all during the primaries.

I believe Clark's statement is as good as it gets. Essentially, he is saying that he doesn't believe the rhetoric. He believes the school has reformed, and he believes it is doing good things. He goes further to state that if anyone can find anything to the contrary and point it out to him, he'll have it closed as soon as it is within his power to do so.

What more can you want? He makes a judgment based on personal experience, yet admits that he is willing to change his stance if proven wrong. That's honesty, my friend. And that's going to be a refreshing change.
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Moderator DU Moderator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-17-04 06:10 PM
Response to Original message
33. Locking....
continuation of a flamewar.
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