How many of you thought the war in Iraq was fishy from the get-go?

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

I mean from the FIRST time any talk of Iraq hit your radar (which would have been in 2002?). I remember clearly my reaction: I furrowed my brow, cocked my head to the said and said "Wha?"

I didn't even know about DU. But back when Mr. Moonbeam was in Desert Storm, I did a LOT of reading about Iraq, SH, the Middle East in general and bushco's shit NEVER made sense to me. Never. Not from the first moment I heard about it.

I have some Dem friends who had their suspicions, but decided the president knows more than they do and if we are going to go into a war, we need to support him.

I said fuck that. Here's why: the military is a tool employed by the government, and, by extension, the people of the US. They have no voice, really. Their entire job rests on following orders. THUS, when the government starts talking military action, the military RELIES on the American people, civilians, to do their duty and sniff out the government as to what this military action is about and whether it is justified or not. If everyone were to just say "Well, the government says we have to attack this country so I will support them, WHEE! Slap that bumper sticker on my SUV!" then hell's bells, the government could just do whatever the hell they wanted with the military, couldn't they? I consider it my duty to watchdog the government when it comes to military action. That's why I think it is completely wrong-headed to call dissent and protest during a time of war unpatriotic. Quite the opposite: it is the ULTIMATE supporting of the troops. They depend on us to be their voice in the case of unjustified military action.

And this one smelled like ten day old fish from the START.

Did you smell it right at first?

[Dookus]

1. of course

it was blatantly obvious from the get-go that this had nothing to do with terrorism or 9/11.

[SoCalDemocrat]

90. Never bought any of it

I never bought any of it. Bitched from the minute Bush started suggesting we go after Saddam. Started posting the PNAC links, etc.

Posted the CIA reports that said there were no WMD's and we knew it back in 1995, etc.

Who listens?

[NMDemDist2]

2. yup

on edit, I did support the Afghanistan thing. Not only to cut off al Qaeda, but to (hopefully) restore the women their rights

but we see how well that worked out huh?

[w13rd0]

13. I was for restoring womens rights there...

...when the Taliban were blowing up those statues, I knew they were nuts. But the Bush admin wasn't interested back then...

[LisaLynne]

3. I can be as stupid as the next person ...

about a lot of things. For one thing, right after 9/11, I was nothing but angry for a long time. However, by the time people started talking about Iraq, I did the "whaa?" thing, too. That might have been what snapped me out of it. I had been getting suspicious before, but once they talked about Saddam, I knew * and his people were full of crap.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

7. That is exactly what happened to me!

During the war on Afghanistan I was like "Yeah! Get that bin Laden fucker!" Then by the time they started talking about Iraq, I was like "WTF? WHERE IS BIN LADEN???"

It didn't add up, it never made sense.

[ekwhite]

54. I had the same response.

I was all for going into Afghanistan and kicking some Al Qaeda butt. It was when Bush started going after Saddam Hussein that my BS detector kicked into high gear. The whole link between Saddam and Al Qaeda smelled like a week-old fish to me.

[punpirate]

4. Hell, Afghanistan was...

... fishy from the start. Iraq more so.

[eddiebrowns]

5. I remember seeing Powell & *

in a press briefing from the WH and looking at my family and saying, UH OH, we're going to war-don't quite remember when that was-late fall before troops sent. They were practically jumping up and down with anticipation

[Dr Fate]

6. I'm on record here at DU as being opposed from the beginning.

Most of my relatives who thought I was a "conspiracy nut" now actually respect my opinions-so I guess I owe Bush a "thank you" for that!

[soothsayer]

8. Yup, never passed the smell test. I remember my outrage at Colin

Powell's laughable testimony, but to my surprise, a whole bunch of folks bought it hook, line, and sinker.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

11. They were all still very much under the spell

of 9/11. But like someone else said above, the Iraq thing snapped me out of it.

It was just.....kooky! We weren't done with all this great rebuilding we were supposed to be doing in Afghanistan!

[Chovexani]

9. Yep

I've pretty much had this thought running through my head since this whole thing started:

:wtf:

[w13rd0]

10. I've been a "10 percenter" from around...

...11am Sep11th 2001. I knew that Operation Iraqi Liberation was BS from top to bottom, because EVERYTHING Bush has done has been BS. 911 didn't make him more intelligent or insightful, he was still the same dumbass that had other priorities and let it happen despite all warnings. He was and is notorious for taking advice from lifelong failures, the same men that CREATED bin Laden and Hussein, and never admitting a mistake or changing course to avoid colliding with a tree. He's a disaster.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

12. Oh I get it

one of the 10% who still didn't approve of him right after 9/11? Count me in there, too.

Hey, why do I get the feeling there were more than just 10% of us?

I mean, my hate for him wasn't real ACTIVE right then, because I was blown away by 9/11. But I still never liked him. Never have, never will. And never trusted him, either.

[NinetySix]

42. I made a conscious decision right after Sep 11

to support Bush because of the horror that had just happened to our Nation, despite the contempt I had held him in since the debauchal of the election the year before. I still didn't like Bush, but seeing the towers collapse on live TV devastated me, and the taped footage of the second plane striking the South Tower, although I didn't see it until well after the fact, nearly sent me over the edge with despair (I drank every drop of liquor in the house that afternoon).

When it was decided that Afghanistan was to be invaded, I supported that war out of anger and not-too-well considered ideas about an international military effort against ALL terrorist groups.

But when talk started to turn to Iraq, the little voice in my head that told me in December of 2000 that Bush would invade Iraq to avenge his Daddy, I began to return to my senses. I didn't believe it was a done deal when they began in the Spring of 2001 to talk about a Fall invasion. I honestly believed that the world community would check the US rush to war, then clung to a desperate belief that the 15-20 million protesors in all the streets of all the world would be enough to cause this President to back down.

I never believed that there were any weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, and this was partially because of the Administration's insistence that the inspectors not have the chance to complete their mission. FISHY.

I remember being depressed from mid-March, when the invasion began, until May 1, when it was declared a success. When it started to get messy, for instance, during the news of the looting of cultural treasures, I began to get angry, and that anger grew through the summer and rose to a crescendo during the Democratic primaries. Now I'm just impatient. Go home. GO.

I suppose I was a visceral 10 percenter, because even when I chose to support the policies, which I could never have imagined would be so ill-conceived and destructive, I still disdained the man himself. But whatever my error, I made up for it last week when I sent in my absentee ballot.

[msanthrope]

57. Me too--a proud, defiant 10% er.......

In fact, on the afternoon of Sept. 11th, my friends remember me loudly proclaiming:

"Where the fuck is that lousy chickenshit motherfucker cowardly bastard hiding out? Nebraska!!! What the fuck are the rest of us supposed to do?"

And by Friday of that week I had predicted: Afghanistan first, Iraq second, Iran third.

[sherilocks]

91. Me too, too

I waited and waited and waited to hear from *, to get his cowardly ass out of whatever hole he was hiding in.

Then days later the coward in chief shows up with the mouth that says how terrible for those who suffered and the eyes that say he doesn't give a shit.

Then we get pounded day after day with "we're going to get Osama." Giving OBL plenty of warning and time to head for the hills. A stealth attack would not have given * the publicity that he seems to crave. Better to reap pleanty of political hay, then accomplish actually catching the murderer.

Suddenly, instead of Osama, I'm hearing about Saddam. Forget Osama, it's Saddam we need to get. * goes on the campaign trail in 2002 for his GOPer buddies and in every speech he's warning us about Saddam. Be afraid, vote repug, and we'll save you from the monster Saddam, he says, over and over. The worst part of it is that it worked. Repubs won.

I knew from the getgo that the Iraq war was just a way for * and his buddies to hold and expand their political power and that it would be a disaster.

[RafterMan]

83. Me too

9/11 was the day I switched and became a Bush hater. Before then, I had considered him a harmless puppet of his father's team who would be kept in line by divided government, the bureaucracy and the circumstances of his election.

I was keeping it together pretty well on the morning of 9/11, until I saw Bush's first press appearance replayed on TV. He was so lost. Catastrophe strikes, and we're being ruled by a talking monkey.

[Cheswick2.0]

102. Me too.... a proud 10 percenter even if he had ever been a GOOD Pres

The way he came into office is an assault on my country and democracy. I could never approve of him in any way shape or form.

[Jane Austin]

14. I heard them start pushing it, and realized they were making it

inevitable. I just couldn't believe the Congress and the media fell for it.

[zaj]

15. I've been bitching since the moment he utter "Axis of Evil".

This whole thing by Bush started out stupid and spiraled out of control from there!

How that's grounds for re-election of a moron, I will never know.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

22. Yep you know I remember him saying those words

for the first time and I distinctly remember sitting on my couch and a chill going up and down my spine.

I turned to Mr. and said "little man makes big talk."

[blitzen]

16. on sept. 12, 2001, I was worried that....

BushCo would pull this shit. Never fell for a single word of their lies. I'm not trying to congratulate myself, just reporting what I was thinking then. Thank God the nightmare is about to end.

[Cha]

17. My sister and I went to NYC to rally against

the "war" on Feb 15,2003 on that world wide day of Protest(Millions across the Planet)! It was a beautiful thing..

The NYT undercut the number of people there by hundreds of thousands!

It was an amazing day that I will never forget..20 degrees and all..but the crowds kept us warm.

When bush is old and on his death bed maybe he will wish he would have listened to the "fringe group"!

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

25. He called us a focus group

and I remember there were candlelight vigils all over the place on March 17. My husband, daughter and I sat in lawn chairs on the front lawn with candles for about an hour in total silence, just praying it wouldn't come to be.

We were fools for even trying. It was planned out long before. THAT I didn't know at the time.

[Norquist Nemesis]

18. *Raises Hand*

What I didn't understand was why they wouldn't let the inspectors do their job. I remember well, having an argument with hubby about it. He's explaining to me how these powerful, potent WMD fit into a shoebox and can be hid anywhere. I'm just thinking...something's not right! These inspectors know how to do their thing; why can't they have more time? As long as they are there, nothing is going to happen.

There were some pretty heated discussions about that.

Now, all Bush can say is "Saddam out of power is a good thing. It was the right thing to do." Well, Duh!!!! Except he didn't come before the American people and say we need to remove Hussein because it will be a 'good thing'! He said it was a threat...growing threat, IIRC.

Removing him from power being the "right" thing to do sort of takes a whole new meaning. :mad:

[RoyGBiv]

19. Believe it or not ...

I smelled a rat on September 11, 2001. And I'm not even talking about LHIOP/MIHOP.

I was at work at the time, which at the time was a place about two miles north of the FAA center. At some point in the morning, the center sent non-essential personnel home, and several of them funneled through where I was and talked about what was happening.

Some of them mentioned Iraq, and my manager, a hardcore chicken-hawk, started talking big and brave about joining up, going over there, and kicked Hussein's ass. I remember clearly thinking at the time that this was how it would go. Before we knew it, we'd be at war with Iraq, but this wasn't Iraq. This was someone else, something bigger than Iraq, and Hussein and Iraq would be used in some way. One reason I remember this is that I wrote about it in my journal and in a long letter I wrote to a friend a few days later on the subject. In that letter I discussed the need of this administration for an "endless war" to replace the Cold War.

My friend and I were talking not long ago about that letter. It was scary how on-target it was.

[deadparrot]

20. I did.

They couldn't find a shred of photographic evidence. We've got satellites trained everywhere, we can see a pimple on the ass of any dictator, yet we couldn't find any visual evidence of a WMD program which was supposedly everywhere--Powell could only tote out his charts and boards and metal tubes.

I just remember thinking, "You fucking liar. Prove it. Show me a picture. Show me anything."

Then they started with the whole Saddam/UBL "connection," which was another crock of shit. It was a blatant attempt to lump every "terra-ist" country together, to lump the terrorist threat into one mass. My thoughts over those months consisted of, "It was bin Laden, dumbasses. Where's he? You're doing WHAT!? Why the hell are you invading--THAT'S THE WRONG COUNTRY!!!"

[LynnTheDem]

21. Yep. As was the Gulf war in 1991.

And I still have posts I made back in August 2002 onwards where I said this was all bullshit and Iraq had NO VIABLE 'WMD' whatsoever and nothing to do with the 911 attacks.

And anyone who actually READ the ACTUAL UN/IAEA reports instead of just believing what bush said those reports said, also knew it was all bullshit.

Even Republicans knew this was bullshit.

Republican House of Reps Ron Paul, September 10, 2002:

http://www.house.gov/paul/congrec/congrec2002/cr091002.htm

HE KNEW it was all bullshit.

[Warpy]

23. Scott Ritter said they had nothing

Hans Blix said they had nothing. Therefore, I knew they had nothing.

The news that the Niger document was a fake came out months before Bush lied about it in his State of the Union speech.

Yes, I smelled the stench emanating from the OSP in the Pentagon, and it was the same stench that wafted out of that building when the Gulf of Tonkin lie was being formulated and sold to the American people.

When an old broad in an obscure part of flyover country knows more than most of those wise old men in government do, this country is in dire trouble. Yet that is what happened.

Those wise old men assumed they were being told the truth, that there was classified information backing up all the allegations.

Let's hope they've learned to question what they're being told now.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

26. I remember thinking that at the time

I remember wondering "now how does a 30-something suburban soccer mom with just a cursory background in Iraq and the ME not believe this pile of shit, but those guys do? How do THEY not see the holes in this story so big you could drive a Mack truck through it but I do?"

It was really perplexing. And troubling. I lost a lot of sleep in the beginning of this war.

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

24. I was suspicious from the get go

First of all I thought it was odd to get involved elsewhere when we hadn't found Bin Laden. In addition hearing the Bush administration dismiss warnings from those such as General Eric Shinseki and the CIA.

I had no doubt we'd overcome the Iraqi army but the administration did not seem to be prepared to win the peace Turns out we were right. I don't get any satisfaction about being right.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

27. I told someone recently

that I never wanted to be proven wrong so badly.

But I wasn't.

[Senator Lamb]

30. I fully supported it

I was a more hawkish democrat, especially after 9/11, heck i was a moderate republican for awhile. I knew that we werent going into IRaq because of 9/11. I believed it was a seperate front to ensure that we stopped Saddam from developing WMD's. after all we had a record, and almost had a nuke if it wasnt for the first Gulf War. I also thought that as we take action to disarm him we can use it as an oppurtunnity to help transform the region. Wow, was I wrong. I actually believed Bush. now i know there was no immenent threat. not only that, but they screwed up the plannning, the coalition, the post war plan, and then of course halliburon. thats why Im a dem once again, and this time permanently.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

33. Good for you.

Just sorry something so horrible had to happen. Hey I know good Dems who supported it. None of them do now, of course. Heck, I find a lot of bushies hard-pressed--they don't want to talk about it at all. And when they do, they just yell "SADDAM HUSSEIN! SADDAM HUSSEIN! RAPE ROOMS!"

Arg.

[Cha]

34. Welcome back, Senator Lamb!

:toast:!

[gavodotcom]

48. 2000 Bush/Gore Debates

It seemed so obvious he was finishing up what daddy told him to do when he talked about WMD in Iraq.

But then again, I didn't take it seriously because who would have thought Bush could be elected?

EDIT: Oops, responded to the wrong post, sorry!

[NightOwwl]

28. One day we're in Afghanistan going after the man responsible for 9/11...

next thing I know Bush is talking about Saddam and Iraq. I knew from that day one he had made up his mind to go to war, and all his talk about U.N weapons inspectors was a bald-faced lie. I'm sorry I was proven right.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

29. SIDE QUESTION:

How many of you thought they'd plant WMDs in Iraq even if they didn't find them?

I did. In fact, I remember discussing it with some other lefties on a completely different (now defunct) site.

We were convinced even if the military didn't find any, we'd "find" some.

[feistydem]

31. Never bought it. When Bushco said they couldn't show the 'evidence'

because they didn't want to tip their hand to the enemy I knew the jig was up. Bush has never resonated integrity or honesty anyway. I always assume he's lying because that's what liars do.

[Eric J in MN]

32. I was skeptical from when the idea was introducted through to

when Bush started bombing.

[evilqueen]

35. Yep. I smelled it right at first.

(and I wept)

[speedoo]

36. I never "thought" it.

I knew it, immediately.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

37. I had to kind of work through the particulars to be sure

but my gut instincts were screaming RAT at about 5000 decibels from the first mention I ever heard of it.

[welshTerrier2]

38. no imminent threat

yeah, this war was bullshit from day one ...

the standard should have been used was "imminent threat" ... even if Saddam did have WMD, even if the aluminum tubes were for nuclear technology, and even if Saddam did try to get "yellow cake" from Niger, it wouldn't matter ...

he was crushed by the no fly zone ... he had no means to deliver any weapons ... it would have been suicidal for him to attack the U.S. ... he had never attacked the U.S. ... it was clear that his "game playing" with the weapons inspectors was designed to convince Iran that he DID have weapons ... and don't even get me started about Al Qaeda links ... Islamic fundamentalism was not something Saddam did embrace or would ever have embraced ...

the point of all this is that there was no imminent threat ... Saddam was not able to attack the U.S. ... for this reason, i was always opposed to this insane invasion ... now look what's been done in our names ...

[telex54]

39. Shady from the beginning.

:mad:

[Lone_Star_Dem]

40. I thought something was up too...

Right after 911 I recall telling my hubby that I was afraid this was going to lead us to war with Iraq. You could just smell it in the air with every passing press conference and media report. It's one time I REALLY wish I would have been wrong.

[brook]

41. Hell yes.

And then I looked around the world - and saw that millions of others smelled it too. *'s second mistake was not heeding that. I've got news for him. God hates arrogant, ignorant vessels of destruction. * is in for a revelation...whether it comes on Nov. 2nd or at his 'end' time - it ain't gonna be purdy. (On the other hand, he seems to get off on the fire and brimstone stuff).

[Mr_Spock]

43. I SCREAMED at my family "can't you see they're lying!" "don't you remember

they said they've been planning this since December 2001!!!" I was so frustrated because I can tell when people are lying and I assume that everyone can - did people turn their senses off after 9/11?

It was SO clear that he was going to do this NO MATTER WHAT, I don't see how there can be ANY question as to his motivations ALL ALONG. IT infuriates me that this question still needs to be asked - what a nation of dunces we are at times.

[endnote]

44. ABSOLUTELY. First time I heard about it.

[TankLV]

45. Yup - I knew it would happen the moment he said he had no plans.

Actually, a lot of us knew the moment he was selected in 2000.

Now, about that draft that'll get underway shortly.....

[pansypoo53219]

46. i got a whiff of BS

immediately.

[Richard D]

47. Everything about the * administration and

everything that has happened since his selection has smelled like rotten fish from day 1.

[CAcyclist]

49. I was suspicious about all of it

Right after 9/11, before there was any talk of Afghanistan or Iraq, I sewed a red, white and blue peace symbol on the back of my denim jacket
because I knew this tragedy would become a pretext for war. I don't believe the Bush admin planned 9/11 but I can't stop thinking that he really needed something like that to divert people's attention, because he was sure losing public support.

So I was opposed to the invasion of Afghanistan back then and I was not at all surprised they turned their attention to Iraq. What I found stunning was how they dredged up these old stories and acted outraged and the people just followed unquestioning. Like, excuse me,why weren't you upset about this when it happened 12 years ago?

[CAcyclist]

62. Let's take this further back.

How many people, on finding out about Iran-Contra,saw how the covert operations that destabilized Central American countries in the eighties and before would eventually be imported here?

I don't equate Bush with Hitler. I equate him with Pinochet or Somoza. His election focus on his base is to raise an army of death squads in the event he does not win.

They start with right wing radio and media and create the zombie-like reactionary right wing groups.They strangle the middle class, enrich the rich and starve the poor by privatizing government functions and shifting the tax burden.Then they turn their zombies against the left and start attacking the intellectuals and scientists first.

[ekwhite]

50. My first response was that he was getting revenge...

for daddy. It was pretty clear to me that we were going to war no matter what Saddam Hussein did. I also figured that we were going after the oil. It wasn't until later that I heard the stuff about PNAC.

[0rganism]

51. I demonstrated with 50,000 other Portlanders in opposition to the war

Of course, we were just a "focus group" to shrubya, and he never pays attention to focus groups.

[mike_c]

52. opposed it-- and recognized the lies-- from the beginning....

Documented on DU, too! This was a war of aggression and a criminal enterprise from the first conspiracy until the day the last innocent victim falls. I live for the day that Bush stands in the dock for crimes against humanity.

[utopian]

53. From the very first mention

I knew. I could see their every sneaking, lying motive. It was plain as day for anyone who really looked.

[JohnnyCougar]

55. I knew FOR SURE it was bullshit

I gave a speech in my public speaking class about what a sham the impending war was going to be. This was months before the war had even started. I got into an argument with my dad about Cheney's "weeks not months" prediction, and said it would take years. Looks like I was right, sadly.

[Lugnut]

56. I smelled a rat on 9/11/2001

It was beyond my comprehension that NORAD could screw up so royally. One hijacked airliner would have raised my red flags but four of them? My suspicions were further raised when the announcement came about the finding of the passport of one of the hijackers. My BS meter was off the scale.

I also had a "whaa" reaction to the Iraq invasion. Saddam had been under the thumb of the "no-fly zone" since Gulf War I and wasn't connected to Bin Laden. The whole thing stunk.

[dansolo]

58. I suspected something was fishy long before Iraq

I supported Bush going into Afghanastan. But soon into that campaign, when we started bombing weddings, I started to get really suspicious. I remember thinking, after hearing about how were were heavily relying on the various Afghani warlords, that we were being set up, and that the US military was being tricked into taking out rival tribes by false accusations of them being Taliban. Then the incident in Tora Bora happened, where we kept getting told that they had bin Laden surrounded, and that it was just a matter of time before he would be caught. And then nothing. It was only later when I read a account of what really happened at Tora Bora that I was completely apalled. And this was before Iraq even started to get mentioned.

[CityHall]

59. They clearly wanted it too much but...

I thought they'd find enough WMDs to make for photo ops at least. I think a lot of the Dem support they got was from people who didn't think the war was a good idea, but were afraid of the negative ads that would result if they voted against the war.

It was completely obvious that they had their hearts set on the war from before they went to the UN, and that they'd make it happen however they could.

[RinaJ]

60. I was always suspicious, but wanted to be sure that there were no WMD's.

I've hated the entire Bush family for years (Florida resident, had to deal with fucking Jeb for six years as well). I never believed them, but just thought it was my fog of hatred that made me dismiss all the doom and gloom warnings. But I REALLY got alarmed when they seemed to get pissed that the UN inspectors weren't telling them what to hear, and then threw them out and started the war. I honestly never expected * to be stupid enough to go back on his word and not respect what they were telling them. Before, I just thought he was a moron, but after that I realized what a power-mad dictator that he was.

[Triana]

61. Yep. Bogus to the hilt. One word: PNAC (n/t)

[LizW]

63. I remember the first couple of days cable news started talking about Iraq

I was confused. I thought it was some kind of weird joke at first. I remember thinking, "Why the hell do they keep talking about Iraq?"

Then I started really listening to what they were saying, and I knew it was inevitable that Bush was going to attack.

I watched the whole thing play out, knowing all the time that Bush was going to have his war, come hell or high water.

[Liberal Gramma]

64. I didn't believe it for a minute

I always knew it was all about oil. I never expected to find WMDs and if they had found any I would have suspected they were planted.

[Lerkfish]

65. yup, I even smelled it BEFORE 9/11....

a lot of people forgot that Bush called for airstrikes in the no fly zone within 2 weeks of getting in office. Didn't set right with me, since I knew sanctions were working and the "provocation" was trumped up.

People thought I was nuts at the time. I even posted on another board "three prong objectives of the neocons" BEFORE we invaded Iraq, and was called a conspiracy nut.

[cynatnite]

Absolutely!

The first time I heard shrub talk about Saddam I had a feeling he was going after Iraq. I think it was the fall of 2001 not long after 9/11.

It seemed not long after that all the talk became Saddam and taking him out.

I had very strong misgivings from the very beginning and even though I did wonder if there was WMD I kept hoping that they'd let the inspections play out.

The bastard cared more about getting the guy who wanted to kill daddy, finish the job his daddy didn't do and getting his hands on the oil.

He's got the blood of our troops and the innocent civilians on his hands because of his petty wants as far as I'm concerned.

[kurt_cagle]

66. From the beginning

I turned on the television just in time to see the second plane crash into the WTC, and my reaction, after realizing what I was saying, was "This is the goddamn Reichstag Fire all over again." I remember the ensuing week of chaos, the contradictory things coming out of the news and the adminstration, the realization that we had given the Afghanis (actually a very small set of "anonymous" warlords) $60 million as an award for cutting down cocaine production, at a time when they were doing all of these atrocities, and felt even then that this was a "downpayment". I was convinced that we would be under martial law by Christmas, and in a lot of respects we were, it was just done very quietly.

By my count, Bush and his cronies have been responsible for the death of at least 15,000 people, not the biggest such purge in history, but from a cold start its pretty impressive. His lies and evasions ever since then have frankly only served to make me believe even more in his complicity with 9/11.

Taking the life of one person is hard. Taking the life of thousands is much easier after taking that first life, because if you have no moral qualms about that first one, after a while the numbers become meaningless. Bush is a man who laughed in the face of giving the death penalty to dozens of people while in Texas, and I honestly believe that beneath his apparently deep faith there is a hollow person who has absolutely no concept of what human life really means.

Call me an extremist, or a conspiracy theorist. All I know is that an incredible number of apparently inexplicable crimes suddenly fall into focus if you assume that Bush, and the people that surround Bush, don't give a damn for the lives of others, only at making sure that they will never have to face the consequences of their actions.

[DireStrike]

67. I was hooked on Kool-Aid. =(

"This is our GOVERNMENT," I said to myself. "They know what they're doing. They can't release the information because it will expose our sources. They have our best interests in mind."

Thank you * and co, for destroying my faith in:
-Humanity
-Government
-Authority figures

Thank you, DU, for restoring my faith in:
-Humanity

[Nordic]

68. Well, glad you saw the truth

It's pretty awful when you realize your government has gone so far astray.

And nobody's doing anything about it.

I felt like I was trapped in a plane with my seatbelt on, knowing the pilot was completely insane and was gonna drive us out across the ocean without enough gas. And maybe only two other passengers and me knew about it.

Awful feeling.

[DireStrike]

72. Yeah I know exactly what you mean.

Yes! I cheered as our tanks overran them in hours. We did it!
And then, any day now we would see those WMD.
Any day.
Any day...
...


The world just got darker and darker every day. "They're not gonna find them," I quietly intoned to myself one particularly dreary afternoon. "They... lied."

Like being socked in the gut. Fear can really hurt.

[bobbieinok]

84. the Vietnam war destroyed for many of us any faith in govt + auth figures

I like/liked Carter and supported his election strongly.

And then at some point after his election I was listening to something he was saying and suddenly realized, 'I just don't believe that.'

From that point on I have been unable to listen to the statements of any sitting president. The only exception was Clinton talking about civil rights.

My experiences/feelings during the Vietnam era permanently damaged my trust in the govt.

[swhisper]

69. I couldn't fathom pre-emptive war on a toothless enemy

But knew * is a madman and asleep at the wheel pertaining to 9-11

[leftofthedial]

70. well duh.

I thought the first Iraq war was fishy.

[PerfectSage]

71. It never made sense.

I kinda viewed 911 as wakeup call for America. Dubya was pulling all this unilateralist stuff like backing out of Kyoto, banning land mines, small arms control treaties. On 911 I was thinking ha-ha this is what you get for not forcing Israel to give the Palestinians their own state.

I lukewarmly supported the invasion of Afghanistan. In the buildup to the invasion of Iraq, I was sort of fooled by the WMD allegations. It didn't make sense. I didn't think Saddam had WMD because the UN inspections had gone on for so long. My line of reasoning was:
1)that after the Gulf War Iraq's military was so weak that Saddam's ability/motivation to be a regional power in the middle east was out of the question. So why does he need have WMD in 2002? He doesn't need them to control the population, because he can use his police forces to maintain control. (Yeah dictators love staying in power.)
2)If he has WMD and the US is beating the war drums, why doesn't he just go into exile?
3)Why doesn't Dubya offer Saddam exile instead of war?

The WMD story just didn't add up. I thought that an Iraq invasion would wind up like Viet Nam with Iraqi's hating Americans, ie a quagmire. I remember in June? 2003 seeing Rumsfeld in a press conference saying more troops wouldn't sent to Iraq, because no more were required and screaming in disgust at the TV: "Oh you stupid @#$% POS. You are so going to regret that."

So, I was prophetic about 911 being a wakeup call to America. A wakeup call to democracy and unfortunately, I was prophetic about Iraq turning into a quagmire. The runnup to the invasion of Iraq smelled a little fishy to me, but the WMD media coverage at the beginning of the war had me fooled to the point where I thought they might find WMD.

B/C No Mo’ Years :party::toast:

[Sugarbleus]

73. I did. I passed the TV when hubby said * wanted to go into Iraq. I

said WTF??!! Why are we doing that? That's not right. They didn't attack us. If they go in there, it will open up a hornet's nest for sure........................IT DID.


I even wrote to the White House AND to my representatives to tell them the idea was INSANE!

Got a standard "form" reply from White House saying blah blah blah..

No one listened; no one gave a good answer back. Pathetic.

[xxqqqzme]

74. me - raising hand

my first protest against the invasion was in LA in November, '02.

Lyin' rat bastards!

[RunningFromCongress]

75. I was against it from the start

[Hog lover]

76. I knew it was bad, bad, bad news and wrote my Congressmen

and Senators asking them to vote against authorizing military action. In my opinion, a bunch of our so-called representatives knew it was BS but voted Yes just for political cover. At that time, the country was still on that "we gotta back the Pres" phase, and the Bush Regime was calling anyone who questioned them a "traitor."

It just made sense to me that (1) Saddam Hussein was not a threat; (2) war in Iraq would only make terrorism worse: (3) invading Iraq would lead to civil war and then destablize the region; (4) it was all about the neo-con agenda expressed in the 1998 letter from Rummy, Wolfo, et al, urging military action against Iraq.

I could rant on, but my blood pressure is going up and up and up.

[Robert Oak]

77. stink, but I read Daniel Yergin, reference in text

This is a fantastic book telling the tale of the incredible quest,
politics, economies, alignments, power struggles, occupations, evil dictators, the whole lot...

in order to procure oil.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0671799320/002-7116279-9738457?v=glance

[mikehiggins]

78. I thought Desert Storm was a fraud.

I remember the girl testifying before Congress about how the Iraqi monsters were throwing Kuwaiti babies onto the floor and stealing their incubators to take back to Baghdad.

Shades of the baby-bayonetting Huns of WWI.

That Bush lied too, so there was no surprise this time around either.

[grace0418]

79. I remember every minute of Sept. 11

and the days that followed so clearly. Aside from the shock and the grief, I felt like an alien. I really did. Everyone around me was going on and on about how wonderful the president was and how lucky we were to have him. And all I could think was "How is he going to exploit this?"

Then, when Iraq started getting mentioned, I said "Ah-ha! That's how he's going to exploit this. We're going to bomb the shit out of Iraq. WTF?" But everyone around me was afraid to speak about it, because we "have to support the troops!" I really thought I was going insane.

Then the protests started, and I got my first real lesson in media distortion. I marched up Lake Shore Drive in Chicago with nearly 15,000 other protesters but were portrayed on the news as a rag-tag group of hippies messing up traffic. Dumbya called the millions of people protesting worldwide a "focus group" and declared that he wasn't going to let us change his mind. The media gave so much more attention to those who acted like protesting Bush was not only a slap to the troops but an act of treason.

I REALLY wish I knew about DU back then, it would've made those months much more bearable.

[JusticeForAll]

99. Found it! Your post matches exactly how I felt too

I was home on disability during 9/11 and was able to watch the whole horrible string of events that occurred.

Not understanding the mad rush to even the first war in Afghanistan, and with incredulity not believing that we would even think of engaging in yet a second war with Iraq!

The only part of your post that is different with me is that I was lucky enough to have had DU for a long time. While being able to discuss and complain on DU lessens the impact of the outrageous mistakes and evil this Administration spreads, the end result is still "unbearable"

I want my country back.

[nonconformist]

80. Against it from the very start

In fact, I've looked up posts I had made on another board during the lead-up to war and they're freakishly clairvoyant.

For the record, I was for the Afghan war at first. It was supposed to be about toppling the Taliban and capturing bin Laden. Well now the Taliban have control back in many areas and bin Laden got away... but it sure did clear a path for that pipeline that had been in the works since this war was first planned BEFORE 9/11.

[The_Casual_Observer]

81. I suspected that this was in the works as far back as late 2000

The economy was headed down as a result of the bubble and oil price hikes. And you knew that if chimp got into office he would use the same
war-to-boost-the-economy as his old man. The only question in my mind was how he would start one. I suspected that he would use the pretext created by a terrorist act or series of terrorists acts targeted at Europe or someplace else to start the war.

[Rageneau]

82. A LOT of people were never fooled. Me among them.

I marched and protested and argued with everyone I could make listen to me in the year-long run-up to the war. I never believed WMD for a minute. Watching the first bombs fall on Baghdad that night, I began to cry because I -- if not Smirk -- could easily see what was going to happen. America was doing wrong and was going to have to pay for it.

That night, I said to everyone around me that George Bush had just thrown the first punch at a tarbaby that he (we) would be stuck to for at least a decade. And we were going to hate every miniute of it.

LOTS of people knew the Iraq War was a horrible mistake. Problem is, none of those people were high-ranking Democrats or influential members of the press. They were just folks like me, eyes open, with no vested interest in promoting death and destruction.

Sometimes, it gets lonely at the smart.

[Bongo Prophet]

85. In two words-- "Pattern Recognition"

First off, I commend all above posters for keeping eyes open to peel back the well-researched art/science that is used to sell the "fresh catch of the day"... I respect each of you for your unique paths of discovery. This gives me hope.

Born in 1957, my childhood was filled with whispers and innuendo, hinting of undercurrents and questions regarding the discrepancy of official history and whatever the hell was REALLY going on. This included assassination, cointelpro, etc. etc. that were "unprovable" at the time, but after watergate, pentagon papers et al and regime change, things actually started to come out. Dark rumors were exposed. It was liberating as a teenager to see this. The power of light over shrouded secrecy. Even though it took decades to expose many things, it was worth it.
Of course, Reagan came along and we were off again. the curtain closed and the weird undercurrents continued. rumours continued also, of drug running ops that had been coming from SE Asia (heroin) migrating to L America,(cocaine) just as counterculture markets were shifting as "party drug of choice".... death squads, arms and contraband... all the same pattern, new locations.
We learned the names, and saw many of the same people return to reprise familiar roles. Secord, Armitage, Bush, Baker, North, Poindexter, Reich, Negroponte, etc.
Strange connections to obscure fraternities like Knights of Malta and Opus Dei didn't help in making a case without seeming a "conspiracy nut" but did make it entertaining and taught us to laugh while we were also shocked at the depth and breadth of these dark matters.
By Iran-contra and BCCI exposure, the time from peak "conspiracy" to exposure reduced to a decade or less in some cases. We saw more patterns we could recognize. The set up of dictators to be followed by their takedown, and who profits at each end. The players in it for long term, exemplified by Brown & Root to Halliburton, left a trail that taught us where to look for motive by following the money. By Panama, we were on to it in short order. Iraq and funding, buried soldiers, again exposure came quickly.
We learned to anticipate the moves, and the turnover time decreased yet again with C-span exposing much of this in real time. We got to see Heritage and AEI and other think tanks do what they do, and be increasingly open about their plans, even while they were being slightly cryptic. People reported much of this via small press publishing and then internet.
By the time W took control and called up Iran contra figures along with the neocons we had seen on c-span talking wishfully about their future in a post cold war reality, we knew they would repeat patterns yet again. But with bigger mission-- post cold war big vision + new cool tech weaponry + looking to the peak oil + Grand Chessboard strategies = a pretty obvious scenario. What later was summarized by PNAC.
So, many of us were on the trail in the spring and summer of 01. From Taliban funding, to treaties ignored, to the concurrent vacations of Bush/Cheney, we were sure something big...something "Northwoodsy"... was up. On 9-11 a friend called to tell us, "I think this is it. Ny is being attacked." This was at the FIRST plane. I had a tape in the deck recording the second WTC hit in realtime, and recorded 20+ tapes in the ensuing weeks. We knew it was the fulfillment of the PATTERN, but LARGER. The DREAM of the NEOCONS come to fruition...
It was on the third day that Neocon PNACer Bill Bennett came TV on to say "There's a whole list of countries we need to attack." The GAME was ON.
The Big Question at that time was "How far, how fast?" and "How much domestic crackdown?" I liken this to crossing a railroad track and suddenly seeing the lights of a train-- it take a second or two to gauge the speed/distance, and in that time there is an adrenaline filled time/space distortion effect. Many of you experienced this. It was also a psychological imprinting on the people of this country from which most have not begun to recover. Most of us here have, thankfully, to some extent.
By the time it came to Iraq, we were clear enough to see the fraud, and I think this surprised them a bit. They misunderestimated us! They won't quit, but they also seem to screw up at some point each time, as the world never quite totally cooperates with their well placed plans...playing with chaos in tricky by its very nature....fnord, indeed.

[LibDemAlways]

86. I know someone whose work

involves interaction with military higher-ups, and in the months leading up to the invasion he heard plenty of discussion that North Korea was the real threat to the U.S., and that Iraq posed no threat at all. The military knew it was bogus from the get-go.

[Point_n_click]

87. Smelled the stench right away.

A lot of people were against it.

I'd have backed it had the inspections been completed, weapons had been identified as being there and being a real threat, and the UN as a whole had backed military action. There wasn't enough proof and it felt to me like the administration was pushing way too hard for a fight despite the lack of proof.

[bullimiami]

88. right o. afghanistan was already the wrong way

to go about things.

we were protesting from the get go.

[Lexingtonian]

89. of course

There were reports of gossip inside the Bush campaign in the summer of 2000 about Hussein/Iraq basically being top of a hit list. Published in newspapers and such. I remember thinking: Lordy, that's going to be a dismal and stupid and regressive four years if those boys get into the White House.

The truth about the Iraq war is that it was a war about American vanity from the first, the excuses offered were all bad ones. And the real infamy was the Bush-Blair-Aznar meeting in the Azores where all three of them knew they were only three or four weeks away from the anti-war people prevailing in their countries- and they decided simply to act.

I was kind of surprised at there being no WMDs. I guessed there would be some middling amount of the poison gas left just to keep the Iranians and Kurds detered. Hussein never used any during the Kuwait war- the politics of it made whatever military gains there'd be from it not worth the trouble. He was never going to use any against the U.S.

It's the lack of moral backbone by all these defenders of "freedom" that has been the most ridiculous part of these past four years. So many moral cowards, bootlickers, sycophants, dissemblers, flagwavers for the greenbacks, so much arrogance and idiocy and unwillingness to plan for the future, so many parasites and thieves, rogues and imbeciles, harpies and ghouls. We need for a lot of them to take an extended dirt bath before we get any kind of civilization on this continent.

[George W. Dunce]

92. I said it was bullshit from day 1

While after the Afghan war TV news was asking who's next? I was asking why does there have to be a next. The sanctions imposed on Saddam by the UN were working he was not in the position to make these weapons. My thoughts were reinforced by Chimpy when he would come out and tell us about "manned and un-manned aerial vehicles", manned aerial vehicles? It may just be me but a manned aerial vehicle is an airplane. The language was fear mongering at it's best. That is just one of many examples of Bush trying to scare the shit outta granny Bea in Oklahoma. He was trying to hard to convince us that the weapons were there.
Take the STOTU address go back and look at it. When he gets to the line about Saddam having sought uranium from Africa he really tries to sell that line. With his dramatic pause and look down at his speech card as if to say "yes it's true it's written right here". Garbage in garbage out.

Another thing that bugged the shit out of me was the BRIBE money he tried to give Turkey for letting us luanch some troops from there, 40 billion I think. I was thinking hmmm we just cut 10 teachers from my sons middle school,why the fuck is my tax money going to this BULLSHIT?

[JPJones]

93. Dec. 8, 2000

I said, "Well, we'll have another war in Iraq in the next four years".

I was never a bit surprised. I was, however, suckered into thinking that they would find SOME WMD. I didn't think they were so stupid as to lie about ALL the WMD.

Leading up to the war, I didn't think the protests were worth much - asking GWB not to invade Iraq is like asking a dog not to lick his balls. It's what he was born to do.

[Garbo 2004]

94. It was when I heard "the axis of evil" speech.

First I thought, WTF? Then I thought...oh no. And later when Iraq being a "threat" came up again and again and they were whipping up public sentiment for a war, I thought Bush had early on decided to go to war and he was going to do so matter what. The dance with Congress and the UN was all a sham.

[eShirl]

95. I knew in in September 2002 it was fishy

... when Cheney started making strange noises about it. Then in November 2002 when the media started refering to the Gulf War as "the First Gulf War," I was shocked and felt then that it was inevitable.

[malmapus]

96. I never bought it either

I even preached to my friends and anyone who would listen how after Desert Storm we put such a noose on Saddam the guy couldn't sneeze without us knowing let alone mass produce WMDs (I still say it should be NBC like I was trained..Nuclear Biological Chemical).

Then the more and more Chimp preached and pushed for war...I started maching in protests in San Francisco, have some GREAT pictures I should post...I LOVE protest signs :)

[baltodemvet]

97. Yep

and I've got the sent e-mails to prove it.

[Gore1FL]

98. When he met in Mexico with Vincinte Fox in Winter 2001

(He disswed Canada doing so)

As he and Fox held a press conference, planes were sent in to Iraq.

It was apparent then he had a hardon for Iraq, and I knew at the time he'd escalate it.

[lil-petunia]

100. mois, and it pissed off my family something awful.

[Cheswick2.0]

101. There were big battles here over that war

and it effected the primary atmosphere. The DLC types thought it was a good idea and many of them still do.
I thought it was crap from the start.

[PaulaFarrell]

103. never bought it

never bought the wmd, never bought imminent threat - maybe cause I knew that these were the same guys who'd cosied up to Saddam not so very long ago. I remeber talking to my sister (pro-war) right before the war in Afghanistan I think and her telling me she'd gone to a pro-war rally. I asked her what for and she said to 'support America' 'against terror'. And I told her then that there'd be a lot more of that if the war went ahead. Well I guess I was right but I wish I was wrong. And I knew Iraq would become one holy mess. How come I could see that and the people in charge couldn't? The worst thing for me I guess was that one of my colleagues was Iraqi (I'm AMerican but I live in England), and two of his siblings had actually died because of sanctions already, and he told me this heartrending story about how his bedridden brother/sister-in-law had been convinced to leave Iraq by their children to avoid the looting and ended up being stuck in Jordan with no money, living in a hovel with very little electricity, ill, in an awful state, and one daughter trying to take care of two invalids while still working working herself. And that was just what the threat of war did; never mind the war itself. I just hung my head in shame whenever I saw him. But he never held it against me. Funnily enough, he had two sisters living in the US, one of whom actually supported the war.

[newyawker99]

109. Hi PaulaFarrell!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[pen dragon]

104. I told people

he'd have us in a war against Iraq within a year when he was appointed President by the Supreme Court. I was off a by a few months but I just knew Iraq was coming in the worst way if needbe

Just look at the creepy little gargoyle, you can see it written all over his face what he's got in mind for the world

[bunkerbuster1]

105. Thought it fishy, but supported it.

I had a tremendous amount of faith in our country's military and intelligence establishment. I never believed that Saddam's regime presented an imminent threat; I figured GWB was "sexing up" the intel to make his case, but I didn't think he was flat-out lying about it.

I know it sounds ridiculously naive now, but hear me out. I had been following the Iraq story ever since the end of the first Gulf war. I felt that ordinary Iraqi citizens were getting screwed by our policy of containment; I believed that it would be better to have a short, sharp, shocking regime change, where an educated, informed people could govern without fear of being shot for speaking their mind.

Yeah, I bought the neo-con / Blair Democrat "humanitarian" angle. I fell for it. I knew that innocent people would die in the initial blitzkreig, but I weighed that against the tens of thousands of people who were dying from lack of medicine and food (not to mention those who were executed by the thug in charge) and decided it was better to take decisive action.

At the time, I told my Republican friends that "these are the last guys I'd want to see running the show," meaning Team Bush, but that the objectives were worthy of my support. I really believed that Team Bush had done its homework and could get in there, not destroy too much of the infrastructure, and get things back to normal in a few months.

Which is why I'm so throughly pissed off at this Administration, today.

[rndmprsn]

106. I was always against it

[0007]

107. ...but ....but .....they were shooting at our planes in the no-fly zone

and causing great harm and fear.

[SheepyMcSheepster]

108. fishy from the get go.

[atre]

110. Most people here who were regulars at the time of the invasion

... were privy to information apparently unavailable to even our top leaders: foreign media. The BBC et al never balked on this subject. American media and American leaders did.