Now my brother won't vote...

[FarLeftRage]

Just because of this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x924355

He's so stubborn and yes, he's a Nader supporter... :argh:

[fob]

1. Tell him to stop being a whiny puss and vote for bush* by writing

in Nader.

:evilgrin:

[Trajan]

4. Hear Hear ....

Nader's name can ALWAYS be written in ....

We want every vote, but not at the price of having to massage EVERY pseudo-affected Naderite personally .... THEY know what is at stake ...

[crispini]

5. Tell him to write in Nader, if he really wants to...

and THEN vote for Democratic congressfolk, reps, and local candidates! :evilgrin:

[Radical Activist]

2. Too bad more Dems don't realize

that a decent number of Nader supporters simply won't vote for Kerry. Nader not being on the ballot means that less people vote, not that Kerry gets all those votes. This is also an indication of why almost half the people in America don't vote. The Democratic Party is too moderate to talk about many of the issues working people care about in a meaningful way.

[napi21]

7. I dosagree with your premise that 1/2 don't vote because the

Dems are too moderate. If that were really the case, Dennis or Howard would be the candidate and not Kerry. You have to realize the NO CANDIDATE is going to please everyone! There are things I don't necessarily like about Kerry too, but I much prefer him to anyone else on the ticket, and that includes all the other candidates for the Libertarian, Constitution, Socialist etc. parties too, and YES I did listen to their presentations too. All the candidates say one or a few things that I like, but there's always something they say that makes me say Oopse!! I don't want that guy!

[Radical Activist]

13. How many people heard about Dennis or Howard?

Not anyone who is already disgusted enough with the system to tune out. And Dean is anything but a liberal populist on economic issues.

If America had been allowed to have a meaningful socialist party then I suspect voter turnout would be much higher, like in nations that do have socialist or labor parties.

[Cheswick2.0]

35. since when isn't america allowed to have a meaningful socialist party?

We can have any kind of socialist party we want. It's getting people to join it that's the problem.

[Radical Activist]

46. Since the government used every means possible to prevent it

From jailing pacifists and socialists during WW1 to Hoover using the FBI to quash radicals and socialists for decades. The US would have had a large socialist party if the US government and local police agencies had not used violence, jailing and other means to stop it.
The US government did not allow for the growth of a socialist party.

Now we're at the point where socialist ideas are just ridiculed and excluded from the debate. People aren't supposed to embrace those kind of "extremist" ideas so it doesn't spread. We certainly won't allow those ideas to be spread through the corporate owned media or in the corporate produced text books in schools. These things didn't happen by accident. The history of suppression of socialism and communism in the US is an interesting topic if you want to research it sometime.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

56. Define Socialism...

I remember the last interview with John Lennon before he was killed in 1980 where the Playboy interviewer asked him if he was a socialist...


He said if socialism means that granny gets her teeth fixed for free than I'm a socialist...


By that definition I'm a socialist but if you mean leveling then I'm against it...

I'd like to work toward a society where we all start at the same place but I don't want any arbitrary limits placed on me where I go from there....

[Salviati]

9. at least according to this poll, Kerry comes out the loser when Nader's on

http://www.nationinstitute.org/pdf/naderpoll.pdf

as discussed in this article:

http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml%3Fi=20041108&s=nichols2

...
Were Nader not in the running, 49 percent of his backers said they would switch to Kerry. Only 17 percent indicated a preference for Bush. Another 24 percent said they were unsure what they would do, while just 10 percent indicated that they would not vote.
...

[Radical Activist]

15. I think you made my point for me

Nader voters don't automatically go to Kerry if Nader isn't on the ballot. Only half of them do according to that poll.

[Salviati]

19. But that is a lot more than go to Bush!

If the undecideds split evenly, Kerry takes 60% of the Nader voters, bush takes 30% and only 10% wouldn't vote without Nader. I don't know how anyone can claim that having Nader on the ballot helps Kerry without being intellectually dishonest in the face of statistics like these (not talking about you, since you don't make this claim, but there are those who do...)

[Radical Activist]

20. True, no one could claim that and be intelectually honest

good thing no one claimed that, unless I'm missing something. :shrug:

[Cheswick2.0]

36. well we can use every voter we can get

According to you we get half his voters... I would say it is more like 75 percent. Great new for Kerry.

[sonicx]

12. only about 20% of the country identifies as 'liberal'

moderates and conservatives split about 40/40.

If dems moved to the left, they'd be worse off than they are now.

[Radical Activist]

14. liberal is a label

polls like that don't mean anything.

[Cheswick2.0]

37. And yet you made a comment about Dean not being a liberal

No shit, lables are meaningless.

[Radical Activist]

47. Well, there's a difference between

name calling and trying to be all things to all people.

[blondeatlast]

30. What, exactly, do "working people" care about?

Jobs? Check.
Health care? Check.
Retirement? Check.
Social Security? Check?
Worker protection? Check.
Right to work laws? Check.
Education? Check.

Go to a union meeting, ANY union meeting, and ask whether they support Kerry or Nader.

I expect you are a working man, right?

Or are you in college, and think you know what working people care about from reading Che?

Ask the guys who shower AFTER WORK if the Democrats aren't supportive of them, then get back to me.

I'm in the process of trying to get union representation at my employment. These guys don't have time for poseurs.

[Radical Activist]

31. Lets look at that list again

I think I learned what working people care about while working as a Union organizer in Illinois. Lets review your list of issues.

Jobs? Check.
Kerry has a half-assed proposal to make a few less jobs go overseas by changing the tax code. That's what Clinton promised in '92 and you see how much things have improved in that regard. When Kucinich called for a dramatic change in how we trade with other nations and proposed a WPA style plan to eliminate unemployment he was written off.

Health care? Check.
Check? Oh, did Kerry suddenly propose a Universal Healthcare plan? Because I didn't notice one.

Retirement? Check.
Really? Are the Dems going to require employers to provide good retirement plans now? Not the last time I checked.

Social Security? Check?
Ok, we did something good 60 years ago under a REAL liberal, Roosevelt, and all we can do is keep it going. Big deal. Social Security was a socialist party idea at first, by the way.

Worker protection? Check.
When was the last time a Democrat tried to repeal Taft-Hartley? Not in the last decade or two.

Right to work laws? Check.
How many states are right-to-work and we haven't done a thing to change that at the federal level? How many Southern State have Democratic leaders who aren't even trying to change the right-to-work laws? I've lived in two. Most Democrats in the South don't even bother to fight that battle.

Education? Check.
Is Kerry going to make higher education free and available to all? Not the last time I checked. Is he going to guarantee that everyone who lives in a poor area will get the same quality K-12 education as a child in the rich suburbs? I haven't seen that plan.

Democrats do a great job of talking about issues working people care about and yes they are better than Republicans. What they don't do is propose changes dramatic enough to solve those problems. We are guaranteed to lose because we don't fight for what's right. Like I wrote in another post, if there were a truly left wing party on economic issues I will bet more working people would vote. Unions support Democrats because they are the best viable option out there, not because Democrats represent their issue extremely well.

[blondeatlast]

48. Absolutely correct, but I think there is reason to be optimistic.

I sense a palpable anger in the country among the working class. Bunny has screwed them six ways from Sunday, and I think it will backfire.

If the Democrat's DON'T sufficiently address working issues, all Hell will break loose. I think, if they address these issues aggressively, we will be the force to be reckoned with in Congress.

But I truly think that Kerry beats Nader on labor issues. I voted for Kucinich in the primary, but I feel confident that Kerry will address these issues. For one thing, he hasn't shied away from union support, as I sensed Gore doing in 2000. I even suspect the party might have liked him to, but he didn't do it.

He's gonna have a huge mess to clean up, too; I just hope he sees this as important enough to spend time on.

[Radical Activist]

57. I hope so

the other possibility is that Kerry will be just good enough that unions and working people will be pacified. That is what worries me. We missed the chance to do a lot under Clinton and unions sat back and took a lot of shit because Clinton was reasonably acceptable. I hope Kerry will take the opportunity to make some major changes. We'll see.

[DaveinMD]

54. this post is hogwash

Kerry has a plan to get us back to the Clinton years when people of all income levels were doing very well, while always striving to do better.

Kerry has a health care plan that aims to achieve universal health care. It will drastically lower the number of uninsured.

Worker protection-All Dems appoint and NLRB with teeth that give working people a chance. They support real health and safety regulations. Scoff all you want. This makes a huge difference.

Education-Kerry is going to give a major tax credit to pay for education at state university. This is a great plan.

[Radical Activist]

58. Then refute it

You just proved my point. Kerry's plan will lower the number of uninsured but it is not UNIVERSAL health care because not everyone will be covered. It also leaves a wasteful insurance industry in place that steals our healthcare dollars.

A $4,000 tax credit for higher education is NOT major reform and it does not guarantee everyone will be able to afford tuition at a good college. It's a nice proposal but nothing dramatic.

And in case you didn't notice, during the Clinton years the gap between rich and poor continued to widen, millions of jobs were sent overseas only to be replaced with lower wage non-union jobs, and percentage of the US workforce in unions continued to decline. Like I said, Democrats are the best viable option but aren't presenting many dramatic reforms to the system that are likely to engage disenfranchised voters. A tax cut here and good appointment there doesn't mean as much as systemic change.

[DaveinMD]

64. Kerry's plan

gets us to universal health care. You are more interested in revenge against insurance companies. I'm more interested in getting everyone covered.

The 4,000 dollar tax credit is enough to cover in state tuition at just about every state university. This makes a huge difference in people's lives. So your post is still hogwash.

As far as the gap between rich and poor. The Clinton economy was good for just about everyone. Rich made a ton. But the poor did better as did the middle class. Unemployment was incredibly low. And the rich paid more in taxes.

I have worked for the afl-cio and many member unions. The decline in unionization is because of the shifting to a skills economy. And the fact that unions did not pour money into organizing until recently. Clinton promoted a ban on striker replacement, but the legislation was killed by a filibuster in the senate.

[Radical Activist]

65. I'm interested in

not throwing away money to help insurance companies make a profit instead of actually providing people with health care. Kerry's plan is an improvement from what we have now, but that's exactly what I'm talking about. Most Dems will talk about making things a little bit better without pushing for real changes that we need.

The $4,000 tax cut would help some if it was that amount for each year of college. From what I understand by reading the Kerry website, that amount is for all four years of college, not each year. That's less than half of what most middle class students take out in student loans. Again, the plan is an improvement, but with no major change to get excited about. If Kerry talked about making college free do you think it would get more students excited? I do.

Yes, things were better under Clinton. But, you'll never convince me that a job at Wal-Mart or McDonald's is an adequate replacement for a good paying union job. That's the other story of the Clinton economy that sent millions of good jobs overseas.

I'm glad to hear you've done work with unions. It would be nice if organizers could more easily expand into non-unionized fields like high-tech computer jobs and fast food. Sadly, I don't hear many Democrats talk about making the changes in law that we need to do that.

[DaveinMD]

67. my first job

out of college was working for the afl-cio. I worked on promoting the Clinton Health Care Plan. That experience taught me that I don't care how we get universal coverage as long as we get there.

Howard Dean made a smart point during the campaign. He said that you can't fight for universal coverage and take on the insurance companies at the same time. Get universal coverage first. Then we can reform the system.

I got into politics because I believe in helping people. If the changes have to be incremental, so be it. The perfect should not be the enemy of the good.

[Johnny 99]

52. Right on!

Well said, my man, well said. "Radical" here is a little bored punk college student from a UMC family who thinks he knows what work is.

[Radical Activist]

59. actually

I'm a former union organizer that has worked professionally on two Democratic Presidential campaigns.

[Radical Activist]

61. Oh yeah, Good Luck

with getting a union at your job. I know how hard that can be.

[Cheswick2.0]

34. but thousands will vote for Kerry because Nader is not on the ballot

That's the facts.

[Robbie67]

42. Thousands would have voted for Nader?

I guess he offered them a choice, or they're all idiots.

[Radical Activist]

51. I would rather

convince people to vote for Kerry over Nader, rather than making ourselves the enemy of democratic elections.

[napi21]

3. He has to make his own decisions, I guess.

All I can say is what I've said to all the others who argue for Nader. "Nader has a lot of very good ideas, and even I agree with them, however, he CAN'T WIN! One of the two major candidates is going to sit in the WH for the next four years. If you're happy with the current resident, then vote for him. If you're unhappy with him, vote for his opponent. If you don't vote, then shut up! You forfeited your right to an oppinion!"

I would rather see him not vote at all than vote for shrub!

[Robbie67]

41. Why would he vote for Bush?

:shrug:

[progressivebydesign]

6. Think I'll go in my bedroom and cry for a few hours..

.. seriously, why is this important to us? If he was going to vote for Nader, and now he can't, how does that affect those of us at DEMOCRATIC Undeground?

[FarLeftRage]

8. I'm sure that it doesn't affect us...

I just thought that I'd share this experience, that's all...

[Radical Activist]

16. Because in the long wrong it might hurt us

if we keep fighting democracy as a principle. We should learn from this.

[Cheswick2.0]

38. Nader is running to spoil the election. WTF does that have to do

with democracy?

[Lorien]

10. How old is he? Draft age perhaps?

If he's under 34, he could end up on the front lines in Iraq, and have no one but himself to blame for it.

[FarLeftRage]

11. He's 36

So that pretty much rules out him being drafted and the funny thing is, he's been to every major anti-war protest and was there to throw stuff at b*sh car during the faux inauguation of 2001...

[RunningFromCongress]

17. tell him about the swap vote thing

[FarLeftRage]

18. "Swap vote thing'??

What is that?

I don't believe I've heard about it before...

[crispini]

62. www.votepair.org

Many different opinions out there as to whether or not it's a good idea... but I suppose if you vetted your pair thoroughly it might work.... could always get ripped off too....

[Buck Rabbit]

21. Has he read the Green Party's position on Nader on their website?

Like here, they make a case for voting for Kerry and they also make their case against Ralph as a third party candidate. He might be open to their views on it, more than what democrats have to say on the subject.

[FarLeftRage]

23. He doesn't care about the Greens

He's just a person who thinks that Ralph's right, no matter what...

[snippy]

22. Truly pathetic. How many thousands of deaths is he hoping for during

Bush's second term?

[FarLeftRage]

24. None.

He's been at every major anti-war demostration and he hates b*sh.

[snippy]

27. Then he has a moral obligation to himself and to millions of other people

in this country and around the world to vote against Bush. The Next Bush War will be worse than Iraq, and the ones after that will be just as bad but they will become routine. Moral obligations often force us to do things that we would rather not do.

[MattNC]

25. your job over the next 10 days

is to get him out there voting for Kerry. Good luck.

[FarLeftRage]

26. Thanks, I'll certainly try

But he's so stubborn in his support for Nader...

[hippiegranny]

28. to what end?

I mean, really! Where has he been for the past 4 years? What would a vote for Nader do even if it was possible? I simply DO NOT GET THIS.

[FarLeftRage]

32. I don't really know to what end

He's been a student for much of the past 4 years and he has protested against b*sh almost at every chance. He's enamored by Nader and the message "that both parties are one in the same part of the ruling oligach's tools." I too, don't get him most of the time either...

[hippiegranny]

33. Let it go, then.

Change the subject. Preserve your family relationship. He does not want to be a part of ousting the worst president ever. Obviously. I know this must be hard for you, but you can only beat your head against a wall for so long before the headache turns to brain damage. You tried.

[NNadir]

29. Your brother, I'm sorry to say, is useless.

[sandnsea]

39. Tell your brother

That Democrats fighting for their vote is the same thing as Nader fighting against Democrats. If Nader thinks he has a right to join with Republicans to get on the ballot, then Democrats have the right to use the courts to keep him off. It's politics. That's what Nader says when he does what he does. And Nader did use the Republicans in Oregon and did turn in illegal petition signatures. Nader can't break the law for "the greater good" and not expect Democrats to fight that for "the greater good".

[crispini]

63. Oooooooooo..... GREAT POINT.

[Robbie67]

40. Tell him to vote!

Tell him either to write-in Nader or vote for Cobb.

[texasmom]

43. His vote is his

to use or not to use, but...

I'm sure he'll realize what is at stake as the next week goes on. Not voting is a vote for all that he must despise if he is a Nader supporter.

[sangh0]

44. No, he really is a republican

He throws temper tantrums when he doesn't get his way, instead of thinking where his (and everyone else's) interests lie.

[Carolinian]

45. Well, that's his choice, I guess. My choice is to get Bush out/Kerry in.

[SoCalDemocrat]

49. Tell the fool to vote Badnarik

He appeals to Republicans.

[FarLeftRage]

50. I can't really tell him

How to vote or who to vote for...
With him, it's Nader or nobody.
Believe me, he has a very strong distaste for repuKKKes and libertarians, so badnarik is pretty much out of the question.

[Radical Activist]

53. Is Cobb on the ballot?

He would do more to build the Green party than Nader ever has.

[DaveinMD]

55. he's a Bush enabler

If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem. He has no right to complain about anything Bush does if he doesn't do anything to remove him.

[Cheswick2.0]

60. I guess ge will have to go to the garden and eat worms

[RummyTheDummy]

How old is he?

I hope he's not too old to get his ass shipped off to Iraq, Syria or Iran as the crusades continue if Bush wins.

Serves him right.

[RummyTheDummy]

How old is he?

I hope he's not too old to get his ass shipped off to Iraq, Syria or Iran as the crusades continue if Bush wins.

Serves him right.

[RummyTheDummy]

66. How old is he?

I hope he's not too old to get his ass shipped off to Iraq, Syria or Iran as the crusades continue if Bush wins.

Serves him right.

[mitchum]

68. Apparently, you got ALL of the brains in the family

No offense, but your brother is a whining dumbass