DUers using the race card for and against Dean!?

[ecstatic]

I really enjoy reading the forums on DU. That being said, I have a huge problem with the way the race card is thrown around on DU.

Sharpton asked a valid question to Dean about his cabinet appointments. Dean does claim to be the only white guy willing to talk about race in front of white audiences. As usual, Dean was honest and willing to discuss the issue.

My problem is, many Dean supporters and anti-Dean members alike have ran with this issue in a way that is borderline insulting: Dean supporters are mainly dismissing the claim, afterall, VT is 98% white. That IS a very valid point. However, some supporters have taken things to another level by talking about blacks being tokens, etc. or implying that no "highly qualified" blacks exist in VT. Others have conveniently decided to bash Sharpton for asking the question, using words such as "race-baiter," hustler, and other racially-coded insults. Is it not OK for blacks to bring up certain issues without being slammed? I've noticed a pattern of overpraising blacks who stick with the party line, and relentless bashing of blacks who say or ask something that is deemed "inappropriate" for a black person to say.

Many anti-Deaners, on the other hand, have taken this same issue and are using it as ammo against Dean. Sort of like fake outrage. Its apparent, after reading some of the comments posted, that *some* of these anti-Dean members could not care less about the real issue, which is fair employment/representation for minorities in this country. Many in this crowd also claim to know who blacks are (or are not) willing to vote for. There is nothing more irritating than seeing these type of smug, and oftentimes inaccurate, posts.

[BurtWorm]

1. Thanks for the brief moment of sanity!

Ah, fresh air!

:thumbsup:

[Padraig18]

2. It's brought ALL the asshats out in force from both camps.

:puke::grr:

[billbuckhead]

4. "I STILL want to be the candidate of the guy with a Confederate flag

bumpersticker on his pickup truck." Nobody put those words in his mouth when Dean was bragging up his record on guns. Words and images mean things.

[Padraig18]

5. Gee, was that said last night?

:eyes:

[ecstatic]

10. thats true, but we knew what he really meant

with that Confederate flag comment. I'd rather put my energy into fighting the real racists, like Bush.

[RUexperienced]

3. Race card and Nazi card and "extremist" are all over-used.

Nowdays, a Nazi is anyone to the right of Joe Lieberman. And if Joe was not Jewish, he would be called one by a bunch in our own party.

That language alienates a lot of centrists and most all of our Southern Democrats.

[KaraokeKarlton]

6. There are very few blacks in Vermont, about 3000 in fact

That includes children and retired people. The problem isn't that there aren't any qualified black people in Vermont for cabinet positions. The problem is that there most likely wasn't any qualified black people for the cabinet positions who were willing to give up their job to take a position that could potentially only last 2 years. We hold elections every 2 years here. If I were a qualified black person and had a good job already I highly doubt that I would want to take a cabinet position that probably paid less and might only last two years. Another issues would be that cabinet members would have to travel to Montpelier daily. Montpelier is a tiny town and Vermont is VERY rural. There are a number of factors at play to explain the lack of black and hispanic cabinet members. There were 6 slots that had to be filled. Whoever got appointed would probably have to relocate, give up a better job that paid more and be only guaranteed a 2 year position. How many people out of the 1700 to 1800 blacks who were in the right age bracket would both have the qualifications AND be willing to move, give up their security for a 2 year position that probably pays less too? I wouldn't do it, and I doubt you would, either.

[bigtree]

11. Man, this is an explanation that I don't think even Gov. Dean would

cotton to.

You do some math and decide on your own that no qualified black or hispanic resident of Vermont aspired to serve in the highest offices of the state whilst he was governor. Good luck with that.

[KaraokeKarlton]

13. No, I live in Vermont so I know what the population here looks like

In my daughter's highschool of over 700 students there are 3 black kids, two of them siblings. You do the math. :shrug:

[stickdog]

16. Here's a better one, then. One in 200 Vermonters is black.

So if you picked 6 Vermonters at random, how many would you expect to be black?

[bigtree]

22. Do cabinet members have to hail from his state?

Don't officeholders regularly pull in qualified cabinet members from other states? What about his pool of black and hispanic friends?

[stickdog]

28. How many of Dean cabinet members were not Vermonters?

There's this weird bias Vermonters have about preferring Vermonters in the highest positions in Vermont state government.

But I guess this just proves that the state is full of racists to you, right?

[absyntheNsugar]

7. I like your Dem Admin image in your sig

However, I would hope to swap Clark for Edwards, and then Have Edwards our Attorney General. He would make an awesome AG!

[ecstatic]

9. Thanks. I thought so too until Clark said he would not be VP

for anyone.

[Sir_Shrek]

8. It was weird....

...to see something like that happening between Dem candidates. Between a Dem and a Rep? Sure. But between Sharpton and Dean?

It makes me think that one of the things Dems tend to be complacent on is how race affects them. I don't mean in the types of voters they attract or repel, instead that political plays like the race card can be just as damaging to Dems as Reps. Folks need to be conscious about whether they're really practicing what they're preaching.

[beaconess]

12. The Truth May Hurt, but You say it so well!!! n/t

[stickdog]

14. One in 200 people in VT is black. Dean had 6 cabinet members.

Therefore Sharpton's question was NOT valid. It was the lowest of all possible low blows.

Yes, Dean loves to point out he's willing to talk about race in front of white audiences. And he does talk about race in front of white audiences. Is it somehow a bad thing that he's trying to goad his opponents into doing the same?

Please explain why or how this gives Sharpton the right to grandstand about Dean's cabinet? This is the disconnect for me. What is Dean not saying or doing on race issues that makes Sharpton's low blow a "legitimate question"?

IMHO, the only legitimate question concerns the lack of diversity in VT itself.

[beaconess]

19. So, Mr. "Big Talk on Race" felt no obligation or even desire to go above

and beyond the minimum possible number in order to diversify his cabinet? Because Vermont's black population is small, that meant he didn't even need to make an effort to include minorities in his cabinet?

I thought Dean was such a big risk taker, a rebel, an out and out progressive on race. Apparently, he's just all talk - when it comes to action, he doesn't bother to lift a finger to do any more than the absolute minimum.

I guess it never occurred to Dean - or to you - that perhaps one of the reasons that Vermont is so lily white is that minorities from other states are reluctant to move to a state that, at least on its face, doesn't have any minorities in positions of power. Just think what the presence of a minority - or two, or three or more - in key government positions could do to change the face of the state and attract a more diverse population.

But, of course, that would have been too much work for Dean, so it's better to just stick with the status quo and not go out of his way to make a statement, encourage greater diversity or, God forbid, possibly change the democraphics of the state.

[stickdog]

26. He did make an effort to include blacks. And just what is his BIG TALK

ON RACE that bothers you so much?

[markus]

15. I made the token remark but you misquote it

I didn't say having African-Americans was, in general, tokenism. I suggested that requiring Howard Dean in 98% white to have one of six cabinet posts filled by an African-American smacked of demand for tokenism.

I believe there is a difference.

[beaconess]

20. Or perhaps, the tokenism went the other way

Rather than think that it would have been SO weird to have a cabinet that in which one black person resulted in an overrepresentation of blacks (at least, according to the state's racial demographics), it could be argued that a 100% white cabinet did not accurately reflect the state's racial demographics (after all, whites only comprise 98% of the state's population) and, therefore smacked of tokenism in favor of white people.

Why is it that when it comes to figuring what would be an appropriate racial makeup of the cabinet, so many Dean supporters are insisting that he was correct to round the numbers down in a way that ensured that NO minorities would EVER be represented in Dean's cabinet?

Yep, best to be on the safe side. No problem with whites being overrepresented - after all, we all know that they are much more likely to be qualified for the jobs. But GOD FORBID we slip up and allow any more black people than is absolutely required to match the state's racial demographics! It's always better to err on the side of having more white people!

[markus]

23. I'm just suggesting it's a silly metric

I want to know what was the racial profile of the entire state employement system. I want to know if people of color were given opportunities to advance in the ranks. I want to know a lot of things.

But Sharpton's general direction was, "I don't care who's on your staff. I don't care who works in your state government. I only want to know why you didn't have an African-American in your cabinet".

(I know I'm going to get reamed for this, but I can't resist): If it's wearing jockey's colors, holding a latern, and on the front lawn next to the driveway, I think we all know what it is.

He told Dean that unless you go out of your way to make sure you have African-Americans represented in every conceivable way in which Al Sharpton thinks appropriate (including some he won't mention until after he's caught you out), you are a Bad Man.

I'm sorry, this is specious and underhanded and something people who have been in politics in areas with large minority populations have seen before, and it doesn't go anybody any good.

It's gives credence to the Southern view that our party is all about minority entitlement. It does nothing to get Democrats elected. All it does is generate lots of applause for Al Sharpton.

It was the wrong thing to do, and I think Sharpton should explain himself better than he has so far, or apologize for being unfairly divisive and destructive.

[nancyharris]

17. There was absolutely nothing stopping Governor Dean

from hiring a minority for his cabinet from either inside or outside of Vermont. You do not have to be born and raised in Vermont to hold a position in a Governor’s cabinet. Many governors hire expertise from outside of their state.

[Padraig18]

18. not in IL, you don't.

Not unless you mean to commit political suicide.

[returnable]

21. But Vermont is not Illinois...

:)

Seriously, though, as a Chicago resident, I know what you're talking about and it's a valid point.

My only real beef with the exchange last night was how Dean tried to dodge/marginalize the question at first, then finally conceded Sharpton's point.

My beef with some of the arguments here is slightly different.

Yes, Vermont is predominantly white. So therefore, it only makes sense Dean's cabinet was white. That seems to be the position of many Dean supporters here.

Fine. I can't really argue with that logic.

But that just underscores the concern that some folks have that Dean may not be the best equipped to deal with racial issues on a national level.

Put it another way, if a white Republican from a predominantly all-white state claimed he or she had significant experience in matters of race, chances are we here at DU would explode with laughter. The same principle applies here.

I'm not saying Dean can't handle the issue; I'm just saying some concerns are valid.

[stickdog]

29. That's a legitimate concern. The grandstanding attacks are not. (nt)

[Ripley]

24. I would just like to know how many whites are in the Rev's

congregation? Or Jews? Or is it all black? Hmmmm, what would his answer be to that?

[Clark Can WIN]

25. My outrage is not fake

We are a minority household. I assure you the outrage is real.

[stickdog]

27. Why? What is your real outrage based on?