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nyrnyr1994 Donating Member (525 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-04 02:23 PM
Original message
Found this floating around the Internet(s)...
A friend of mine sent me this forward....let's go through this and come up with some answers to these. Shouldn't be too hard.

(WARNING: This email is dripping with freeper rhetoric!)

Subject: Just Plain Facts............

Learn these facts to properly debate our poor misguided friends before election time !!!

There were 39 combat related killings in Iraq during the month of January.....In the fair city of Detroit there were35 murders in the month of January.

That's just one American city,about as deadly as the entire war torn country of Iraq.

When some claim President Bush shouldn't have started this war, state the following ..

FDR...
led us into World War II.Germany never attacked us: Japan did.
From 1941-1945, 450,000 lives were lost,an average of 112,500 per year.

Truman...
...finished that war and started one in Korea,North Korea never attacked us. From 1950-1953, 55,000 lives were lost,an average of 18,334 per year.

John F. Kennedy...
started the Vietnam conflict in 1962.Vietnam never attacked us.

Johnson...
turned Vietnam into a quagmire.
From 1965-1975, 58,000 lives were lost,an average of 5,800 per year.

Clinton...
went to war in Bosnia without UN or French consent,Bosnia never attacked us.He was offered Osama bin Laden's head on a platter three times by Sudan and did nothing.Osama has attacked us on multiple occasions.

In the two years since terrorists attacked us President Bush has ...liberated two countries,
crushed the Taliban,
crippled al-Qaida,
put nuclear inspectors in Libya,Iran and North Korea without firing a shot,
and captured a terrorist who slaughtered
300,000 of his own people.

The Democrats are complaining about how long the war is taking, but...

It took less time to take Iraq than it took Janet Reno to take the Branch Davidian compound.That was a 51-day operation.

We've been looking for evidence of chemical weapons in Iraq for less time than it took Hillary Clinton to find the Rose Law Firm billing records.

It took less time for the 3rd Infantry Division and the Marines to destroy the Medina Republican Guard than it took Ted Kennedy to call the police after his Oldsmobile sank at Chappaquiddick.

It took less time to take Iraq than it took to count the votes in Florida!!!!

Our Commander-In-Chief is doing a GREAT JOB!
The Military moral is high!

The biased media hopes we are too ignorant to realize the facts.
PASS IT ON and VOTE!.

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shoelace414 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-04 02:26 PM
Response to Original message
1. The War is over!
:bounce: :bounce:

I hope someone told the Iraqi's
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molly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-04 02:26 PM
Response to Original message
2. This is just plain ignorant.
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nyrnyr1994 Donating Member (525 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-04 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. I know....
I would've thought he would know better by now, kind of disappointed in myself that I wasn't able to convince my friend otherwise. This email was probably one of his worst.
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TimeToGo Donating Member (656 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-04 02:28 PM
Response to Original message
3. What morons
We didn't declare war on Germany until it declared war on us. On Dec. 8th, FDR declared war on Japan no German. Many claim that Hitler's big mistake was joining with Japan against us.

Do they have no history books over in Freeper Land?

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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-04 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #3
16. DO THESE FOLKS NEED A LESSON IN PLAUSIBLE LYING? LOL
I am not going to write a history text because some freeper idiot can not tell the truth. LOL but here are some HINTS:

There were 39 combat related killings in Iraq during the month of January.....In the fair city of Detroit there were35 murders in the month of January. WHERE ARE IRAQI DEATHS?

That's just one American city,about as deadly as the entire war torn country of Iraq.

When some claim President Bush shouldn't have started this war, state the following ..

FDR...
led us into World War II.Germany never attacked us: Japan did.
From 1941-1945, 450,000 lives were lost,an average of 112,500 per year. A LIE AS TO GERMANY AS YOU -TimeToGo- NOTED

Truman...
...finished that war and started one in Korea,North Korea never attacked us. From 1950-1953, 55,000 lives were lost,an average of 18,334 per year. A LIE AS TO "STARTED" BUT WORTH A BOOK OR TWO!

John F. Kennedy...
started the Vietnam conflict in 1962.Vietnam never attacked us. A LIE AS TO STARTED _ CHRIST - THE DC WALL BEGINS IN 1957 or 58.

Johnson...
turned Vietnam into a quagmire. WHERE IS GOP PRESSURE AND DOMINO THEORY?
From 1965-1975, 58,000 lives were lost,an average of 5,800 per year.

Clinton...
went to war in Bosnia without UN or French consent,Bosnia never attacked us.He was offered Osama bin Laden's head on a platter three times by Sudan and did nothing.Osama has attacked us on multiple occasions. OSAMA's HEAD WAS NEVER OFFERRED - THIS HAS BEEN DEBUNKED SO MANY TIMES - JEEZZZ

In the two years since terrorists attacked us President Bush has ...liberated two countries, WHO DO NOT FEEL LIBERATED
crushed the Taliban, TALIBAN CONTROL THE HALF OF THE COUNTRY NOT CONTROLLED BY THE WARLORDS!
crippled al-Qaida, 18 or 24 911 LEADERS ARE GONE AS THE OPERATION GREQ FROM A FEW THOUSAND TO TODAYS 18000
put nuclear inspectors in Libya,Iran and North Korea without firing a shot, TOOK INSPECTORS OUT OF KOREA/IRAQ - LIBYA WAS AN ECONOMIC DEAL FOR OIL PUT TOGETHER BY THE BRITISH, IRAN NEVER DID NOT HAVE INSPECTORS???


and captured a terrorist who slaughtered
300,000 of his own people. TRUE EXCEPT THE 3000000 IS INCORRECT

The Democrats are complaining about how long the war is taking, but...

It took less time to take Iraq than it took Janet Reno to take the Branch Davidian compound.That was a 51-day operation.

We've been looking for evidence of chemical weapons in Iraq for less time than it took Hillary Clinton to find the Rose Law Firm billing records. ROSE LAW FIRM RECORDS WERE ALWAYS IN STAR'S POSSESSION - HE WANTED HER PERSONAL COPY TO SEE IF SHE HAD WRITTEN PENCIL NOTES ON IT!

It took less time for the 3rd Infantry Division and the Marines to destroy the Medina Republican Guard than it took Ted Kennedy to call the police after his Oldsmobile sank at Chappaquiddick. 6 HOURS????

It took less time to take Iraq than it took to count the votes in Florida!!!! THEY WERE NEVER COUNTED BEYOND THE FIRST FLAWED GOP COUNT

Our Commander-In-Chief is doing a GREAT JOB!
The Military moral is high! NOW IT IS SAD THAT THAT IS SO FALSE.


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LTR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-04 02:29 PM
Response to Original message
5. Here's a few rebuttals
Edited on Tue Oct-12-04 02:34 PM by RatTerrier
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RevolutionStartsNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-04 02:30 PM
Response to Original message
6. How do they always manage to..
work Hillary AND Chappaquiddick into their talking points? Damn, these people are good!
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DURHAM D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-04 02:32 PM
Response to Original message
7. Ike sent advisors to Vietnam.
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aint_no_life_nowhere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-04 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #7
14. The US had 700 to 900 "Advisors" in Vietnam when Ike left office in 1961
Eisenhower's Administration heavily pushed the "Domino Theory" to justify US involvement in Southeast Asia. And the US began covert military training and support of the South Vietnamese government almost as soon as the French left in 1954.
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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-04 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #7
20. One of my uncles was stationed in Japan during the Korean war.
He worked as a jet mechanic. He said we were sending planes on missions over Vietnam at the time.
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jean Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-04 02:32 PM
Response to Original message
8. They all must ENLIST asap - their commander in chief will command
them to the gates of hell and they'll all be war heroes.
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T Square Donating Member (11 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-04 02:32 PM
Response to Original message
9. Huh?
"That's just one American city,about as deadly as the entire war torn country of Iraq."


Which US city had over 13,000 civilian deaths in the past year an a half? Remind me not to move there!
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Zen Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-04 02:33 PM
Response to Original message
10. Hannity wrongly says we started the war against Germany..
The afternoon of the attack on Pearl Harbor, Japan declared war on the United States, and Germany soon followed by also declaring war on the United States. For some reason, Hannity just can't get it through his head that GERMANY DECLARED WAR ON THE UNITED STATES FIRST.
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Another Bill C. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-04 02:34 PM
Response to Original message
11. A point by point rebuttal
“Let's clear up one point: We didn't start the war on terror. Try to remember. It was started by terrorists on 9/11. Let's look at the 'worst' president and mismanagement claims.”

Iraq has no connection with the terrorists on 9/11. This is supported by the following, among many others:
Lt. Col. Karen Kwiatowski, USAF, formerly of the Pentagon’s Office of Special Plans.
Jeffrey Record of the U.S. Army War College.
Joseph C. Wilson IV, a retired ambassador who was a secret envoy of the Bush administration to Africa.
Paul O’Neil, former Treasury Secretary under G.W. Bush.
Rand Beers, former Bush White House counter-terrorism coordinator.
Richard A. Clarke, counterterrorism coordinator for the Reagan, Bush I, Clinton, and Bush II administrations.
Stansfield Turner, former CIA director
Ray McGovern, who heads a group called Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity.
Pentagon Middle East analyst Peter Molan
Greg Theilmann, a former senior official with the State Department.
Tom Maertens, foreign service officer in the counterterrorism operation of the State Department.
David Kay, former U.S. weapons inspector.
Hans Blix, U.N. weapons inspector.
Rolf Ekeus, the former head of the U.N. weapons inspectors in Iraq.
Scott Ritter, chief U.N. inspector in Iraq from 1991 to 1998.
Mohamed El Baradei, director general of the International Atomic Energy Agency.

“FDR led us into World War II. Germany never attacked us: Japan did. From 1941-1945, 450,000 lives were lost, an average of 112,500 per year.”
Japan attacked the United States on December 7, 1941. Germany declared war on the United States on December 11, 1941. Is the writer suggesting that we should have allowed Germany to conquer Europe, sink our ships, and continue the progroms under which they killed 12 million innocent people?

“Truman finished that war and started one in Korea. North Korea never attacked us. From 1950-1953, 55,000 lives were lost, an average of 18,333 per year.”
Truman did not start the Korean war. We had a treaty obligation to defend South Korea. As a U.N. member we joined the coalition that went to South Korea’s aid when they were attacked by North Korea.
“John F. Kennedy started the Vietnam conflict in 1962. Vietnam never attacked us.”
In a press conference on April 7, 1954, President Eisenhower used the “domino theory” to describe the consequences of a Communist takeover of French Indochina (Vietnam). The first U.S. military “advisors” (35) were placed in Vietnam by Truman in 1950. Eisenhower increased that presence to 654 “advisors” along with over a billion dollars in military aid. JFK increased the number to 16,000. By the time Kennedy was killed, 489 U.S. servicemen had been killed there. On October 11, 1963, JFK signed orders to begin a withdrawal of U.S. forces from Vietnam. (http://www.jfklancer.com/NSAM263.html)
The “domino theory” was used as justification for military action in Southeast Asia from the term of Eisenhower/Nixon through most of Richard Nixon’s term.
“Johnson turned Vietnam into a quagmire. From 1965-1975, 58,000 lives were lost, an average of 5,800 per year.”
Johnson was president for only 4-1/2 years of this period. Nixon was president for 5-1/2 years. Most of these losses were under Nixon.

“Clinton went to war in Bosnia without UN or French consent. Bosnia never attacked us.”
The war in Bosnia was a NATO action. We are a member of NATO. The Serbs were engaged in “ethnic cleansing.” No U.S. casualties resulted from that action.

“He was offered Osama bin Laden's head on a platter three times by Sudan and did nothing. Osama has attacked us on multiple occasions.”
In March of 1996, Sudan offered to arrest bin Laden on behalf of the U.S. There was no evidence at that time that bin Laden had committed a crime against the U.S. so the Clinton administration begged Saudi Arabia to take him. The Saudis refused and, after 10 weeks of negotiation, the matter was closed and Sudan expelled bin Laden whereupon bin Laden took up residence in Afghanistan. Since bin Laden was expelled from Sudan on this occasion, they couldn’t have offered him after that.
In 1998, Clinton signed an order for the CIA to assassinate Osama bin Laden
Clinton’s efforts against bin Laden in the last years of his administration were widely criticized by Republicans as “wagging the dog” to divert attention from the Monica story. This discouraged Clinton from continuing his bombing of al Qaeda camps. Those criticisms may have contributed to the success of the September 11 attack.

“In the two years since terrorists attacked us, President Bush has liberated two countries, crushed the Taliban, crippled al-Qaida, put nuclear inspectors in Lybia, Iran and North Korea without firing a shot, and captured a terrorist who slaughtered 300,000 of his own people.”
The countries of Afghanistan and Iraq are presently occupied by foreign powers. Whether the Taliban has been removed permanently in Afghanistan remains to be seen and appears doubtful right now. Afghanistan’s Opium production is now up to pre-Taliban levels and the Afghani farmers are probably really grateful to us for that. Afghanistan’s warlords are back in power and our small force there is no match for them.
While there was an immediate threat from al Qaeda there was and is no evidence that Iraq posed an imminent threat. The Iraq war has cost us almost 600 of our own and killed more than 10,000 Iraqi civilian people.
Libya has been moving toward a less militant position since 1986. In March of 2003, Libya's chief of intelligence, contacted the British government and signaled Libya's willingness to publicly abandon its programs on weapons of mass destruction in return for concessions from the United States.
Iran has banned U.N. inspectors as of March 14, 2004.
There were U.N. International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) inspectors in North Korea until Bush called Kim Jong Il a pygmy and named North Korea to the Axis of Evil. North Korea has rejected U.S. demands to dismantle its nuclear weapons.

There’s no argument against the fact that Saddam Hussein was an evil leader. If it is our mission to take out all the evil leaders in the world, we still could have waited until the immediate threat (al Qaeda) was removed before going after these leaders.
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comsymp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-04 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. Additional info from a previous DU thread
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evilqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-04 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #11
18. Exactly.
Your casualty numbers are dated, however. Losses are much higher now, I think. Saw an estimate the other day of around 38,000 Iraqi civilians killed. I think that number is off quite a bit. I think that number is actually much higher. Many deaths go unreported.
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xxqqqzme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-04 02:36 PM
Response to Original message
12. there R no inspectors in
N Korea. The TV cameras policing the facilities have been turned off, the inspectors R gone.

Democrats R NOT complaining about how long but why the invasion was undertaken in the first place...I mean other than lining the pockets of squatter's cronies & campaign contributors.
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evilqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-04 02:36 PM
Response to Original message
13. Their factoids leave out some crucial info.
Edited on Tue Oct-12-04 02:38 PM by evilqueen
There were 39 combat related killings in Iraq during the month of January.....In the fair city of Detroit there were 35 murders in the month of January.

That's just one American city,about as deadly as the entire war torn country of Iraq.


I guess they don't count Iraqi men, women, and children as humans. Those who are killed by bombs and bullets are only the tip of the iceberg, you know. Thousands more will die for years to come because of the depleted uranium used in our weaponry. We've dumped, literally, tons of it into their environment. The half-life is something like 4.5 billion years.

I only picked one of their factoids to debunk. Debunking the rest would take pages and pages of posts. This is why having an educated electorate is crucial, so stupid people who think like the above aren't making the important decisions.
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progressivebydesign Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-04 02:45 PM
Response to Original message
17. Shit.. where do I start???
Hmmm. The Taliban is NOT crushed. They are surging back into power. Afghanistan is out of control, the poppy production is back to record levels, and war lords are allowing Taliban to rule in local areas.

CRUSHED Al Quaida? Where in the hell would anyone get that idea? Bush said they destroyed 75% of Al Quaida. Bullshit. Anyone with half a brain and a computer can find the quotes from OUR GOVERNMENT this year, that say there are thousands of Al Quaida members. We have killed.. what? 25 of them? Do the research on that. It's bullshit.

People killed in Detroit in January? There's a BIG difference in big city murders (which, if you look at the facts, are usually around illegal gang and drug activity). THAT'S totally unacceptable on its OWN merits... However, there's a HUGE difference between that and having our military killed daily for an unjust war. I guess, if someone wants to use that wierd logic, they can say that nearly 1/2 million people die each year from smoking related diseases... so it would be ACCEPTABLE to lose 1/2 Million of our troops each year?

TAKE IRAQ? Umm.. just bombing the hell out of a DEFENSELESS country is called "TAKING" it? If we're so successful, what the hell is going on now? Liberated Iraq?

Oh screw it... that email is one of the most ridiculous, simplistic, pieces of freeper puke I've seen. Also.. most of those are actually written by GOP operatives, NOT your kindly aunt.. who is forwarding that shit around.
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bobbyboucher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-04 02:51 PM
Response to Original message
19. They don't talk about Iraqis killed, of course, nor do they mention
that Detroit has a population of what, a million or two? There are 130,000 troops in Iraq. So, all things being equal, there is a death rate for our troops in Iraq that is at least TEN TIMES that of the city of Detroit.

Fucking dickweeds.
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Ravenseye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-04 03:44 PM
Response to Original message
21. Point by Point Rebuttal
1)There were 39 combat related killings in Iraq during the month of January.....In the fair city of Detroit there were35 murders in the month of January. That's just one American city,about as deadly as the entire war torn country of Iraq.

Response - How many of those 39 brave soldiers would have died if they had not been in Iraq? Is the death of 39 Americans in one month because of a lie, a fair enough price to pay? Speaking of the number of murders in Detroit...How many of those were caused by guns? How many of those people might have not been pushed into murder with proper mental health treatment? How many of the police that Bush has taken off the street would have helped prevent those crimes? How would a good education have helped some of those murderers not be in the position they are in?

2)FDR...led us into World War II.Germany never attacked us: Japan did. From 1941-1945, 450,000 lives were lost,an average of 112,500 per year.

Response - Germany declared war on the United States first.

3)Truman...finished that war and started one in Korea,North Korea never attacked us. From 1950-1953, 55,000 lives were lost,an average of 18,334 per year.

Response - The trigger for the Korean War was when, in 1950, Syngman Rhee boasted that he was going to attack North Korea. The North Koreans then invaded South Korea. This started the actual fighting.

4)John F. Kennedy...started the Vietnam conflict in 1962. Vietnam never attacked us.

Response - The Vietnam conflict did not begin in 1962, but in 1940. The Vietnamese fought against the Japanese. After that war, starting in 1945, led by Ho Chi Minh, the Vietminh fought the French, till they defeated them at the Battle of Dien Bien Phu in 1954, after which the nation was divided into two nations. In 1957 the Vietcong supported by North Vietnam begin fighting the South Vietnamese. Kennedy sent military advisors to help the South Vietnamese at their request, and eventually troops, though there is much evidence that if he had survived, he would have removed our forces from Vietnam.

5)Johnson...turned Vietnam into a quagmire. From 1965-1975, 58,000 lives were lost,an average of 5,800 per year.

Response - Exactly. This is what happens when you compound a mistake by 'sticking to your guns' and not admiting there was a mistake made, or that you have a problem.

6)Clinton...went to war in Bosnia without UN or French consent, Bosnia never attacked us.

Response - NATO fought the war against Bosnia, which the United States helped lead. There were multiple large forces involved, including German, Russian, British, Italian, and other troops. No American soldier lost their lives.

7)He was offered Osama bin Laden's head on a platter three times by Sudan and did nothing. Osama has attacked us on multiple occasions.

Response - Sudan claimed that it could arrest Osama and extradite him, though whether this is true has never actually been confirmed. The Clinton Administration however pursued it, though could not arrest him at the time because bin Laden had not yet been connected with any U.S. deaths, and if we got him, we couldn't try him. So they tried to get the Saudis to take him, but they refused. Clinton worked for 10 weeks to try and get the Saudis to take custody, to no avail.

8)In the two years since terrorists attacked us President Bush has ...liberated two countries,

Response - Iraq is occupied, dangerous, and not free. Afghanistan is again falling to the taliban without American intervention, controlled mostly by warlords, half it's population are effectively slaves, and it's free elections ramp with fraud.

9)crushed the Taliban,

Response - Yes, but then diverting resources to Iraq has led the Taliban to be making a strong comeback.

10)crippled al-Qaida,

Response - Connecting all terrorism to al-Qaida is naive and dangerous. Still, though they may have captured a majority of the al-Qaida operatives they knew of 3 years ago, how many new ones have sprung up in their place? How many al-Qaida recruits have been created by 'liberating' Iraq?

11)put nuclear inspectors in Libya,Iran and North Korea without firing a shot,

Response - Libya and Iran are thanks to diplomatic efforts by the Europeans, and not the U.S. prior to the invasion of Iraq. North Korea is building bombs, and any progress made there, which is little, has been done by the Chinese.

12)and captured a terrorist who slaughtered 300,000 of his own people.

Response - So far the deaths of innocent people in Iraq are estimated to be over 20,000. Most of those deaths occured under the watch of the CIA, during the presidencies of Bush and Reagan. Saddam was bad. Saddam was evil. Saddam was contained, as shown in every report released since the war. If you want to help innocent people so bad, why are we not rushing troops to Sudan right now?

13)It took less time to take Iraq than it took Janet Reno to take the Branch Davidian compound.That was a 51-day operation.

Response - Have we adequately taken Iraq at this point when large swaths of the country are under 'rebel' control? The 'war' isn't over. Not to mention they gave the Branch Dravidians 50 days to give up before responding to being fired upon.

14)We've been looking for evidence of chemical weapons in Iraq for less time than it took Hillary Clinton to find the Rose Law Firm billing records.

Response - And yet after hunting for evidence to use against either Clinton for a decade, the only thing they could vaguely tie to him was arguably lieing under oath about getting a blowjob from an intern. How much money did Ken Starr spend to find that out, while unable to prove a thing about Whitewater.

15)It took less time for the 3rd Infantry Division and the Marines to destroy the Medina Republican Guard than it took Ted Kennedy to call the police after his Oldsmobile sank at Chappaquiddick.

Response - Most of the Republican Guard disipated and didn't fight our troops head on. They are now fighting them guerrilla style in the streets of the cities. Sad that Kennedy went into shock after being in a horrible accident thirty years ago. How is that a (implied) reason to re-elect Bush?

16)It took less time to take Iraq than it took to count the votes in Florida!!!!

Response - And yet when all the votes were counted, in every possible recount scenario, Gore would have won.

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underpants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-04 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. SLAM!
This fight is OVER Ravenseye is the Champeeeeeeeeeeen!
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aint_no_life_nowhere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-04 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. Germany was sinking US Merchant Marine ships BEFORE Pearl Harbor
Although no war between Germany and the US was formally declared, there was nonetheless a hot shooting war on the high seas. The US was supplying weapons, ammunition, and food to Germany's enemy Britain. And Germany was busy sinking US Merchant Marine ships all over the Atlantic, before Pearl Harbor. At least 240 mariners were killed in action before Pearl Harbor. These attacks on US shipping were clearly hostile acts of war and would certainly be viewed as such today.

U.S. Owned or Chartered Ships Attacked Before Pearl Harbor. Complete list of attacks:

*SS City of Flint was seized by a German warship but her captain's diplomacy, and the intervention of Norway eventually freed the ship. Oct. 9, 1939
*El Sonador (Panama flag under U.S. charter) was torpedoed and sunk near the Shetland Islands on February 18, 1940. Casualties unknown.
*SS City of Rayville struck a German mine off the Australian coast. Nov. 9, 1940. Crew 1 killed
*SS Charles Pratt torpedoed on Dec. 21, 1940 (Panamanian flag, U.S. owned and crewed) Crew 2 killed
*SS Robin Moor torpedoed by a U-Boat in the South Atlantic. May 21, 1941. No casualties
*SS Iberville mine dropped by German aircraft in Red Sea. August 11, 1941. No casualties
*Longtaker torpedoed and sunk in North Atlantic on August 17, 1941. Crew 24 killed, 3 survived
*SS Steel Seafarer attacked by German aircraft in the Gulf of Suez. Sept. 5, 1941. No casualties
*Montana torpedoed and sunk in North Atlantic on Sept. 11, 1941. Crew 26 killed
*Pink Star torpedoed and sunk in North Atlantic on Sept. 19, 1941. Crew 13 killed
*I. C. White (Panama) torpedoed and sunk in South Atlantic on Sept. 27, 1941. Crew 3 killed
*Bold Venture (Panama) torpedoed and sunk in North Atlantic on Oct 16, 1941. Crew 17 killed, 17 survived. This was a former Danish vessel taken over by the U.S.
*SS Lehigh torpedoed and sunk off the African coast. Oct. 19, 1941. No casualties
*Meridian (Panama flag under U.S. charter) was torpedoed and sunk in North Atlantic on Nov. 11, 1941. The entire crew of approximately 38 was lost (4 of the crew were Canadian, citizenship of others unknown).
*SS Astral, a tanker, vanished, torpedoed in the North Atlantic. Dec. 2, 1941. Crew 37 killed
*SS Sagadahoc torpedoed in the South Atlantic. Dec. 3, 1941. Crew 1 killed
*SS Cynthia Olson torpedoed in pacific one hour before attack on Pearl Harbor, Dec. 7, 1941. Crew 33 killed. 2 Army passengers killed
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jmowreader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-12-04 04:26 PM
Response to Original message
24. Oh god, what a pack of lies and distortions
We've seen this one before, and age has not improved it.
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