Latest GOP talking point re: taxes: people who earn $200k aren't rich.

[girl gone mad]

I've been hearing that one a lot recently.

It may be true that 200k is middle class in NYC, I don't know (if that's the case, how can these people argue against a raise in the paltry by comparison minimum wage?).

I'm not sure how well this argument is going to go over in the swing states, but I think we need to make certain people are aware that Kerry's tax plan will only amount to a slight increase on people earning in that range. If I'm not mistaken, I believe it is less than $500.

[eleonora]

1. $200K/yr is not rich?

what planet are they from? Certainly not mine!

[girl gone mad]

4. They are saying that..

a family of four in NYC or San Francisco can barely survive on 200k.

I'd like for them to rectify that spin with their postition on the minimum wage.

[LiberalAndProud]

8. Heard it before.

I guess it's all relative. The more we have the more we need.

I don't think I'm rich, but try telling that to somebody who has an annual income hovering around the $72.00 mark, and I think he will be as puzzled as I am by the 200k-not wealthy argument.

[mhr]

21. Tell It To Someone Like Myself That Is Unemployed Or Underemployed

Pure utter bullshit!

[Dcitizen]

15. Because...

They have not been level with people like Bush, but only with millionars who paid less tax than middle class.

[jdots]

27. no body mentioned the big corporate taxes

Taxes for so called American corporations and how they have gotten out of paying thier fair share.There is a lot of work to be done if we don't want this country to devolve into what Europe was hundreds of years ago.The neo cons put down modern Europe because strangely enough the want to live in old Europe.
It all may be a part of human nature to want royalty,we have created a celebrity based royalty in this country who surround themselves with private armys called body guards. If this is human nature i want something better.

[venus]

32. 200k per individual is a lot of money.

Usually these folks, if they're married have a spouse who is also earning lots of bucks. So their income may be double, hypothetically speaking. Also the get to write off almost every expense. And I agree with the previous post that says that's all the 30 something set thinks of:making more money and investing in their children's future. They don't realize their tax cuts take revenue that could be used for our nation's infrastructure. Who's going to build the new bridge and fix the potholes, and maintain street lights, and pay the police to protect them from crime, etc, etc... I loved how Kerry in the second debate included himself, Bush, and Charlie Gibson as those who do not need permanent tax cuts.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

2. I'd like to be that kind of not-rich.

And I'd even pay the extra tax, and smile while doing it.

[ogradda]

3. it would be to me

but of course i understand why they should get a tax break i dont get <sarcasm>

[punpirate]

5. Then why am I seeing...

... all those McMansions and BMWs and Mercedes in my travels.... :eyes:

[SoCalDem]

14. easy credit...

until the plates stop spinning(obscure Ed Sullivan reference)

[w4rma]

6. Republicans live in fantasy land. (nt)

[Lindacooks]

7. Oh, how I wish

that somebody, somewhere, would figure out, using a tax rates table, how much people have left over after their taxes are paid. It would be so much clearer to everybody!!

Rather than saying 'I had to pay $40,000 a year in taxes!' (Crowd: gasp!), a rich person would have to say 'I had $340,000 left over after I paid my taxes.' (Crowd: go away, you whiner.) This is just a wild guess on my part, BTW.

[cheshire]

9. That's it I'm invited that MF to live my life for a bit. I hate his stupid

ass. God please make him swallow his tounge and choke.

[KharmaTrain]

10. Look At It From GOOP/Greedland

The common thread I see in so many Repugnicans...especially the 30somethings, is their constant occupation with money & status. It's either getting it and making more, or showing it off.

There's a hidden message in here...it's saying to those in the GOOP hive, if you're not making 200k a year, you're not "there" yet...the benchmark that enables them to join the "big boys" club. Sadly, I see this mindset constantly as the only values these fools hold dear ar the ones in their portfolios.

What gets me is many of these people never got much, if any, rebates on their taxes...and had to pay more when you consider increases in local taxes than they had in 2000, but there's no way you can explain it to them. Somehow they've been brainwashed that only the Repugnican party is fiscally responsible no matter how to the contrary reality says.

I have no pity for these fools. Right now they're being pandered big time for their votes...when the rich & powerful no longer need them, they'll stripped of their savings again and thrown out with the trash.

[ISUGRADIA]

11. I'm trying to find exact stats but

85% of Americans earn less than 50,000 a year. Since 200,000 is in that top 15% that is not middle class...that is rich to the people in the bottom 85%.

[Proud Liberal Dem]

12. Um....Ok.....Whatever!

My wife and I are barely getting by with +/-$50,000 with two children and somebody has the nerve to tell us that $200,000 isn't "rich?" I guess it's all a matter of perspective. To somebody who makes $200,000, I guess $200,000 is a proverbial "drop in the bucket." I honestly don't know what my wife and I would do with that "not rich" sum of money! ;-)

[oscar111]

18. Lindacooks: aftertax income estimating is easy: third for tax, top rate

easily estimate how much they have after taxes...

about thirty five percent is the top rate now, so just mentally remove a third from the income.

======================
Now, dont get confused.. i begin to speak now about another "third" in stat world...
====================

Ike, in fifty two, a time of prosperity, taxed them ninety percent.

Today they pay only a third of what they should pay. Down from ninety to a piddling thirty five percent.

That is why society has been demolished, why we have the homeless literally dying in the streets, three times the normal rate, from heat, cold, crime and disease {rat bites}.

84 000 dead every year. The detax is Why we have heinous crimes on tv news.. state asylum system cut in half, the criminally insane now drifting among us, killing. {most insane are harmless, dont turn against them all}

Why is society now demolished? So gated communities can have mansions with handpainted walpaper, so Kozlowski can spend two million on a party with vodka flowing from a male opening in an ice statue, so the Parker Meridian Hotel in NYC can serve omlets that cost a thousand dollars each.

We have a gobble-starve society.

[the_outsider]

13. what are they smoking?

I am looking at 2000 census data. 95th percentile household income is 148K. 200K would be at least 98 percentile. So we are talking about top 2 percentile of the population. If top 2 percentile are not rich, I don't know what "rich" means. Give me 200K, I will gladly pay 40% in taxes. Sorry, can't be sympathetic.

[Indiana_Dem]

16. So 40% of $200,000 is $80,000 (I'm bad at math, sorry on edit!)

What are they crying about? One year I worked for an agency on top of my other job and made around $77,000 (with spouse's income, too). I ended up paying about $700 in taxes with 3 dependents. First time I ever had to pay. That year I was throwing around money like it was nothing! So I don't want to hear anyone crying about taxes at that level.

Under Kerry's plan, small businesses that make this much will get tax breaks and incentives and healthcare premum incentives so it won't be that bad for them either from what I've read.

[LiberalAndProud]

20. About that small business thing

I did not benefit from Bush*'s tax break. I have a small business (organized as an S-corporation). I will benefit from Kerry's tax plan. Bush* is a LIAR. (but you all knew that already).

[bling bling]

17. Is it 40% on the whole amount?

I don't really understand taxes, but I thought I heard that everybody pays the same percentage up to a certain amount. Not sure what the magic numbers are where the percentages go up. But, if that's the case, the forty percent would apply to the income above and beyond $200,000, for example.

I could be wrong on that, though.

[the_outsider]

19. I am not sure on the exact number either

It's not flat, there are different slabs. But I am quite positive even after Kerry's increase it wouldn't be more than 40% and it will affect only 2-3% of population. I am not worrying about them.

[oscar111]

23. rent in NYC? that is the key to their nonsense. Food not vary much

someone tell us average rent in nyc.

that will crash the gop nonsense.

I want rent in a place like Brooklyn.. no one HAS to live in manhattan's east side gold coast luxury area.

[Princess Turandot]

36. I live in Manhattan, and would like to stay here..

thank you very much..


The average rent on a one bedroom apartment in Manhattan is around $2,000, give or take. It's hard to start looking at the outer boroughs since their neighborhoods vary quite widely. Usually realty figures quoting average prices will do so by neighborhoods.

I'm all in favor of a rollback of Bush's tax cuts, but I think you will find it's more expensive to live in NYC than you think. It isn't a good city for your purposes. I'm paying $4 to $4.50 for a gallon of milk now. Plus, we have an 8.7% sales tax and city income taxes.I pay $15 for 30 pounds of cat litter which friends of mine buy in the midwest for around half that amount.

[Indiana_Dem]

24. What happened to me was that making the ~$77,000 put

me into another tax bracket and I ended up paying for the first time in my life with a family of dependents! So yes, I think the percentage goes up proportional to what you make. But if you make over a certain amount (I forget how much) you can do what's called "itemize" and deduct all kinds of things like medical bills and things if you spend a certain amount on those things. Unfortunately, I didn't realize I was going to make that much and didn't make it a point to spend my money and keep receipts on those kinds of things. People who make that kind of money all the time do, though.

Needless to say, I tried not to make so much again! LOL I was in the position where I couldn't itemize yet I was into a higher tax bracket so I had to pay more. It wasn't worth it to me to try to cough up that $700 all at once when it wasn't an ordinary thing for me to make that amount every year. I was just trying to focus on paying off debt that year. It worked a little but something always comes up where it puts a wrench in your plans. I'm done trying to fight it. I'm happy with our $50,000/yr and returns in the spring!

[sandnsea]

30. Yes you're right

They'd pay 10% on the first $20,000, or whatever the number is. And on up from there. The top rate only applies to the taxable income over $200,000. TAXABLE income, which means their actual income is even more than $200,000.

[Princess Turandot]

34. You are right..

each 'step' up in salary has it's own rate. It's the income above a certain level which is taxed at the highest rate. I think there are 4 brackets right now, but wouldn't swear to it.

[high density]

22. I heard that, too

The fact is that Clinton-era taxes are not going to bankrupt these people. They make it like Kerry's going to raise the tax rate to 80% or something extreme like that.

Why are the Republicans so set on passing all of this debt onto future generations?

[oscar111]

25. didnt gen. Clark say shift ALL tax off the middle class?

so it can be done.

site that lets you fiddle with the Budget, and roll back tax cuts.

http://www.nathannewman.org/nbs

national budget simulation

[LastLiberal in PalmSprings]

26. Republicans have always cared about the homeless --

-- the second homeless, that is.

[sandnsea]

28. They're still the top 2%

Just goes to show how broke the rest of us really are. Most people aren't rich, most people aren't even getting by. That's what that $200,000 figure shows.

[kodi]

29. that income in wages or return on investment? they aren't taxed the same

incomes that are derived from returns on investments are taxed about 50% less than wages.

[Nobody]

39. That's just not right

I'd like to see a two tiered tax system where unearned income is taxed MORE than earned income.

For the record, retirement and pensions and social security is considered earned. If you worked and are retired, you earned it.

Unearned under a certain amount would be taxed as if it's earned income for simplification. What's the point of someone winning $1000 at the slot machine or stock dividends of $100 getting hit hard? It's a drop in the bucket.

People who can live comfortably without ever having a job of any kind can and should pay more taxes. They're reaping all the benefits of civilization and doing no work at all.

I don't know why the have-mores have a problem with low wage people earning enough to live on. Maybe I should feel sorry for them, it can't be easy to go through life taking and never giving.

[Guaranteed]

31. LOL let them say that and we'll see how it goes over with the public. nt

[theorist]

33. I remember hearing that the $200k figure is the "adjusted annual income".

Someone correct me if I'm wrong on this.

I believe it was on The Thom Hartmann Show, so it was likely a credible assertion that Kerry's reference to $200,000 is to the adjust annual income, which means that a cunning accountant goes through one's finances for the year and applies every possible loophole and tax cheat available (usually in a "legal way"). The figure I remember is that a $200k adjusted income in 2003 was approximately $1mil prior to adjustment.

I don't think we'd have to argue that a millionaire is rich or not.

[doni_georgia]

35. Tell that to someone who makes $15K a year!

A friend of mine's husband lost his $50K a year job after the company moved off shore last year. He now makes $20K a year making hearing aids. My parents were in the $200K+ income bracket when Clinton was in office. My mom's business has all but gone belly up since then. Their combined income is now less that $50K a year. I can tell you $200K a year is not rich, but it's comfortable. Certainly it is comfortable enough to afford an increase of $500 a year in taxes. Heck, my husband and I don't make anywhere near $200K, but we'd be willing to pay more in income taxes to ensure our kids weren't saddled with this deficit we have now.

[Cats Against Frist]

37. I don't know

I don't think "$200k/yr is not rich," is going to go over so well, in "the heartland." If that's the top 1 or 2 percent of wage earners, I'd say that's proportionally rich.

Kerry needs to say the GOP is "out of touch," if they don't think $200k/yr is not rich.

[progdonkey]

38. they're just predicting...

what will be true in the near future if Bush gets another four years. With the way he's screwing up the economy, $200,000 won't buy you a loaf of bread in the near future.

[sherilocks]

40. This is all smoke and mirrors, $200,000 is taxable income

after all the deductions. A middle class income in NYC or San Francisco is much higher than it is in many parts of the country. BUT, if you are being taxed on $200,000, your gross income has to be a lot higher. Someone correct me if I'm wrong on this.

[Free2BMe]

41. Live on SS..not cryin' but Medicare increase is a killer...