Dean Admits in 12 years Zero Blacks, Hispanics in Cabinet.

[Octafish]

Gee. No wonder Dean has a problem attracting support from the Hispanic and African-American communities. When it comes to being a real Democrat, Dean is all TALK.

Sharpton Blasts Dean on Race in Debate
Pressured by Sharpton in Debate, Dean Concedes Never Naming a Black or Latino to His Cabinet

The Associated Press

DES MOINES, Iowa Jan. 11 — Under fire in a campaign debate, Howard Dean conceded grudgingly Sunday night that he never named a black or Latino to his cabinet during nearly 12 years as governor of Vermont.

"If you want to lecture people on race, you ought to have the background and track record to do that," Al Sharpton snapped at the Democratic presidential front-runner in an emotionally charged exchange in the final debate before next week's kickoff Iowa caucuses.

http://abcnews.go.com/wire/Politics/ap20040111_1163.html

[tedoll78]

1. *yawn*

...

[Octafish]

51. Appreciate the well-thought out response.

Having come to expect a little more from the Democratic nominee besides talk, it's no surprise to see the response of those who don't agree.

Listen. The country is in some deep trouble. The problems are as serious as any this nation has faced. Racism is one of these issues. Dean doesn't seem to have a clue about that. From what his record shows, he has zero clue about the rest of them — from Civil Rights to National Security.

Yawn if you must. My country matters to me.

[tedoll78]

65. I love how you imply that it doesn't matter to me.

And you need to re-look at his record. Instead, we're judging Dean's cabinet by the color of their skins rather than the content of their characters. Pitiable, especially when we could be discussing more substance.

But I understand the hissy-fit. When the everything and the kitchen sink has been thrown at him and he's still up on-top, why not play the race card, right?

[papau]

70. Yawn in a state with no blacks/browns - that uses French as the down group

may be reasonable.

I was friends (actually one of my daugters more so than I)with the legislator and his family who was the one elected black in Vermont. At the time (early 90's) professional blacks had one Actuary in Vermont.

Sorry - but Sharpton is wrong to jump on Dean for this.

[ClarkGraham2004]

201. It's a big reason why Dean SHOULDN'T be the nominee!!!!

He's from perhaps the most irrelevant state in the country.

[Hippo_Tron]

233. Nah, Vermont has great Skiing...

:eyes:

[JaneQPublic]

235. Dean had blacks in his administration, just not his 6-member "cabinet"

That's was how Sharpton phrased the question, after Dean asked for clarification.

Considering the African-American population of Vermont is only 0.5%, I would guess that, overall, Dean's administration was an accurate reflection of the demographics of the state, although not that of the country as a whole.

[bowens43]

253. Vermont is much more relevant

then a 30 year military career.

[formernaderite]

184. Al's schtick is sometimes funny and often tiring....double yawn

Having grown up in mixed race areas, one of the things that shocked me most when I travelled through out the New England states of Vermont, New Hampshire and Maine was the absence of people of color.
So when Sharpton tries to call Dean on the lack of representation in his small cabinet of six, it sounds like something whiney.
Come on, this is not a legitimate issue. I'm certainly not against affirmative action, but even you critics have to concede that when the group you are wanting to represent makes up 2% of a states population, there isn't a case to be made. Unless we're going to start asking every state in the Nation that has any minority cultural population of between 1 and 3% to name a cabinet member for each of those groups.

[Octafish]

222. Dean: "Trent Lott would be Martin Luther King."

That was part of Dean's reply. Heard it with my own ears. Now WTF does that mean? And, in case I'm missing it, what's so funny?

DEAN: Well, let me just say one thing, which I have said before but I'll say it again. If the percentage of African-Americans in your state was any indication of what your views on race were, then Trent Lott would be Martin Luther King.

TRANSCRIPT:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A8591-2004Jan11_3.html

[diamondsoul]

259. He's saying that-

If you determine a persons views on race by the percentage of people of color in their State then you'd be way off base about Trent Lott.

It's a smart-aleck way of saying there's a very low percentage of minority people in Vermont.

[Kahuna]

245. Dean has appointed himself as the "civil rights" candidate..

It's fair game. Dean himself made it an issue. Dean himself is preaching race to anyone who will listen. Sharpton rightly called him out, IMHO.

[blm]

270. Dean has the worst record on civil liberties, too.

That should be a factor for those who understand that civil liberty and judiciary issues are usually skewed AGAINST minorities.

[Maddy McCall]

2. And before someone uses the .6% lie, there were TWO PERCENT or 20,000

people classified as minorities in the 2000 census.

So out of 20,000 people, Dean could not find ONE qualified person for a cabinet seat?

This is indefensible.

[stickdog]

16. That's bullshit. How many cabinent members did he have.?

He'd have to have 50 for you to have a real argument, even at a 2% minority rate.

[Maddy McCall]

18. No, it's not bullshit. He says he reaches out to races but his record

shows that to be a lie. The only bullshitter is your candidate.

[mbali]

21. No - he's being consistent...

Dean promised to reach out to white people. Obviously, that's what he's been doing his whole political career. He never promised to reach out to black people, so why is anyone surprised that he didn't reach out to any to bring them into his cabinet?

:-)

[Maddy McCall]

30. Good point... :-)

But for anyone to use race hiring quotas to DEFEND a man who never appointed a minority to his cabinet is, well, it's proof that there is NOTHING Dean could do for which they would not defend him.

[democratreformed]

88. Yep, I never thought of it this way. n/t

[stickdog]

125. His staff was over represented with minoritories, gays AND women.

How many out of his cabinent of 6 would you like to be a minority? From which minority group? Wouldn't only one of each smack of tokenism? What about mixed races?

[Maddy McCall]

140. Cabinet positions require a great deal of faith in ability...

more so than a staffer who is making calls and arranging meeting places, dates, and so forth.

That is what the hubbub is all about.

And the "token" argument is inherently racist--you might want to cease and desist on that.

[in_cog_ni_to]

25. I agree.

He's really concerned about minority issues. :eyes:

[Maddy McCall]

34. Concerned about how he can use them to help his campaign...

but not concerned about minorities enough to show his faith in them by appointing ONE to his cabinet.

Sharpton nailed him tonight, and he will not be able to "lecture" ANYONE on race anymore.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

116. Just from a political standpoint - it was very stupid for him to make race

a big issue when he has a crappy record as far as race goes. What were they thinking??? It also points out more Dean hypocrisy

More on Dean's spotty record....

http://www.dissidentvoice.org/Articles9/Frank_Dean-Sharpton-
October was a rough month for Howard Dean. His Democratic challenger Rev. Al Sharpton upped his attack on the front-runner for Dean’s anti-affirmative action, pro-death penalty, pro-gun agenda. And the conservative watchdog group Judicial Watch is fast making their case that Dean broke the law in Vermont by concealing Government records while in office.

In a statement released this past week, Sharpton stated that, "Howard Dean's opposition to affirmative action, his current support for the death penalty and historic support of the NRA's agenda, amounts to an anti-black agenda.”

-snip-


Also him being guest speaker at the Maidstone Club last year (the club that bans blacks, Jews, etc.

[Maddy McCall]

123. It is getting worse and worse for Dean, and he may not be able to

recover from the revelations that are pouring out now.

Good for Sharpton for forcing him to admit this tonight.

If the sealed records demonstrate that he was anti-Affirmitive Action, then defenders like CMB should walk away from him.

I could NEVER support a candidate who is anti-Affirmative Action.

[Kahuna]

246. I agree. I only wonder that it took so long for someone to..

call him on it. And, it didn't have to be a black person to call him on it. Anybody at anytime should have called him on it.

[stickdog]

133. What the hell is Sharpton doing?

Opposition to affirmative action? Dean is strongly in favor of affirmative action.

Dean favors the death penalty is for only the most heinous crimes.

Dean thinks some states need gun control and some don't. And how many of the ones that don't have high populations of African American anyway? Is there some big Wyoming or Vermont gun smuggling operation that we don't know about or something? So how in the hell is this an anti-black agenda?

[Renew Deal]

250. Dean does not favor Affirmative action

He favors a program that is organized by class, not race. That is not AA.

[w4rma]

260. In addition to. (n/t)

[beaconess]

262. You're putting words into his mouth

that's not what he said.

[Snivi Yllom]

272. Sharpton is a pander bear

Sharpton has no buisness being in these debates. He is there only to pimp himself.

We all know it. His accusatory tone towards Dean was despicable and uncalled for.

[Hoppin_Mad]

31. 2000 census list Vermont's population at 608,827 not One Million -eom

[Maddy McCall]

Go look at the minority data...add it up, and you have two percent

minority and twenty thousand people classified as minority.

On edit, make that 3.2 percent minority and 96.8 percent white.

And on second edit, link: http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/QTTable?ds_name=DEC_2000_SF1_U&geo_id=04000US50&qr_name=DEC_2000_SF1_U_DP1

[Maddy McCall]

45. Make that OVER THREE PERCENT (3.2%) minority with 96.8% white

[Hoppin_Mad]

56. 24.2 % of the TOTAL VT population is under 18 . . . 12.7 % over 65 -eom-

[stickdog]

101. And how many self-reported as mixed?

Go into any office building in Vermont and select 6 people at random.

6 out of 6 will look white.

[Maddy McCall]

117. You post become more racist each post...

It doesn't matter how people look--if they report "mixed" then they are classified as nonwhite minority. That is by the respondant's choice, not by the census taker's observation.

"You don't look white to me" doesn't work in this case. The respondants' classification of SELF is what matters.

Any other threads at which you would like to grasp tonight???

[stickdog]

139. Of course it doesn't matter. My point is that I don't know how person

I've seen in Vermont self-classifies. So I can only use my eyes. And, when I use my eyes, non-whites are few and far between.

To be honest, it makes me uncomfortable. I'm like, who opened the can of blondies?

[papau]

80. 2% of 500,000 is 10,000 - and I never saw any such number black/brown

There are many indians - SEA and American - and other SEAsia that could in total be 10,000.

One post says 600000 population and another says 4% minority - or 24,000 total

I was there for 5 years - and I do not know how this translates into a population that I never saw.

[Maddy McCall]

96. Add up the numbers. 3.2 % are nonwhite minorities.

Remember, in the census you are asked your race and the census taker uses info YOU supply when filling out the form. Or you mail in the form you complete.

3.2% of Vermonters consider themselves NONWHITE. Add up all minorities and you get 3.2%

Sharpton called Dean on "black and brown" people and "minorities." 3.2% fit that category.

[stickdog]

105. No. Mixed/other doesn't mean non-white. Especially not in VT. (nt)

[Maddy McCall]

119. Census standards DON'T change state to state.

Do you even know what the definition of minority is in the US? Racially, it indeed means NON-WHITE.

Keep grasping...

[stickdog]

141. Does it? What percentage Native American do you have to be to be

classified as Native American?

[Maddy McCall]

147. According to the census, you claim your race...

That isn't the same standard as it takes to prove tribal affiliation.

You want to talk about American Indian and race? Great--because that is my specialty...ethnohistory...and Iwill be glad to inform you.

[stickdog]

164. Great! So tell me, as an expert, if someone had proven tribal affiliation,

how might you expect her or him to self-report?

[Maddy McCall]

175. You don't have to prove tribal affiliation for the census...

there is no box to check for "Choctaw" or "Cherokee."

You do have to prove lineage to join a tribe to take advantages of the benefits of tribal membership.

On the census, you don't have to "prove" race. You report whatever race you feel that you are.

[stickdog]

282. Avoiding the question, I see.

And I thought you were the expert.

[formernaderite]

189. My question to you

Every state has minority cultural populations that make up between 1 and 3% of the total. Many states have larger cabinets than Vermonts...so, does your Governor have representation of each of the states micro-minority groups in their cabinet?
If not...I'm just shocked.

[Bread and Circus]

3. Let the record show, Clark made a point of promoting minorities and women.

But but he is a "Republican" so we can't vote for him...

[twilight]

6. the worse of two evils?

Why not seriously consider Dennis Kucinich? He is a viable candidate IF people will only vote for him.



:dem: :kick:

[Bread and Circus]

27. Yeah, I understand why people like Kucinich... he has the heart and

mind of a true humanitarian.

I think that's great..

But Clark (nor Dean) are evil. Frankly, Dean is just a
politician. Clark is something quite different, give him
a chance if you would.

We can't have "liberal" blinders on and expect everyone
to agree with us just because we may be right.

[Leilani]

42. Also, Clark's daughter-in-law is a Latina

Clark's 1st & only grandchild is 1/2 Latino, & he is Wesley Clark III.

Clark does't talk about this stuff: he lives it.

[robbedvoter]

67. His name: Wes Pablo Orviedo-Clark (said it yesterday)

[Printer70]

48. No Proof- getting to be a disturbing trend...

No evidence, not credible.

[Leilani]

74. Here's your Evidence:

http:clark04.com/press/release/158/

This was a press release January 7, 2004

Wes Clark website

Unlike some other people at this website, I do not post lies!

[Printer70]

137. Sorry, this is weak

>Wisconsin Lieutenant Governor Barbara Lawton....stated, "Wes Clark's experience in the Army, where he fought hard to recruit and provide advancement opportunities for all minorities, proves that he is the leader we want in the White House."

She is the Wisc. Lt. Governor- how does she have any insight into what Clark was doing in the Pentagon?? And where are the facts?

>"Wes Clark's commitment to the Hispanic community is clear. He worked closely with Hispanics throughout his thirty-four year career in the Army. His only son is married to a Latina and they just had a baby boy," said Kety Esquivel National Hispanic Outreach Coordinator. "The future of his family, like the future of our nation, is inextricably linked with the future of our community."

How did he work closely? What the heck did he do? And the son-in-law gimmick is pretty lame- like George P. Bush.

--
I appreciate the URL- at least there's something there. But I'm afraid it doesn't substaintiate the claim.

[John_H]

229. It's called common sense. Pls see my post above.

[Lefta Dissenter]

236. From "American Son"

the video about Clark that everyone on earth should watch (avail for viewing at www.Clark04.com)

a black woman who worked for Clark is speaking,

"Even though he was the commanding general, you were never made to feel "less than," regardless of your rank, your gender or your race. General Clark was very supportive of women. He did not place barriers, which is different than most assignments. You get there, 'Oh my god, it's a woman, it's a minority.' General Clark was just the opposite. He got on the phone with Washington and said, "Why don't I have minority officers in my division? Why are they not being given the opportunity?"

[John_H]

228. Not only that....

Clark was resposible for the lives of people of every ethnicity,race, religion, and region of America. And if you think for a minute a commanding general doesn't have to worry about race, ethnic, religious, and even regional tensions, particularly when people from very diverse backgrounds live in close quarters on foreign soil, you're kidding yourself.

[KoKo]

271. His career was in the Military. A much more ethnically diverse group than

Vermont.

[windansea]

4. bbbbbbbbbbb but he's the only one talkin bout race

sheesh he looked bad

[Kahuna]

247. That's all he can do is talk about it since he has very little...

experience with it. Clueless people always do the most yapping on a subject. Don't they?

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

273. You prove that axiom everyday!

:evilgrin:

[Kahuna]

276. But YOU especially proved it today...

:evilgrin:

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

279. Doh.

[Pale Blue Dot]

5. Not to be contentious, but

How many blacks and Latinos live in Vermont?

On edit: Nevermind, the question was answered above.

[KissMyAsscroft]

7. So does that mean his policies are bad?

So because Bush has minorities in his cabinet, that somehow makes his policies sound?

What does that prove either way?

Basically it proves that Sharpton is desperate.

[mbali]

9. What ARE Dean's policies on race?

So far, all I've heard him say on the issue is that he's the only white politician talking about race to white audiences and that he wants to talk to explain to white people why black folks are so unhappy. Since he's set himself up as the great expert on race, what's wrong with asking him a few questions about it?

No desperation on Sharptons' part. He opened himself up to this big time.

Frankly, I find it absolutely amazing that Dean can lecture everyone about race for months and his supporters think that's just fab, but when one of the candidates, who happens to be black, finally calls him on it, you guys attack him as desperate.

[Maddy McCall]

12. Dean can't patronize white audiences on race anymore...

because his record shows he has NO AUTHORITY on the subject.

[windansea]

13. right on

I think Al was right to ask Dean what he did

You and Al getting attacked by Dean supporters cuz they know it made Dean look bad

[stickdog]

20. What should Dean have done? Hired a token African American or

Native American in the perhaps 15 odd cabinent members in his terms as Governor?

Why?

What should he be telling audiences? Is he qualified to say anything from your perspective? Should he just stop trying?

[mbali]

39. Do you really think that the only way to bring a minority into his cabinet

would be to hire an unqualified "token?"

This attitude exemplifies exactly why affirmative action is necessary. The assumption that minorities are somehow less qualified than whites and, therefore, not suitable for positions that whites now hold is the very essence of the attitude that affirmative action is designed to combat.

Affirmative action, despite how it is mischaracterized, does not require the hiring of unqualified minorities. It instead urges that affirmative action be taken to broaden the hiring pool and one's narrow-minded asssumptions about people who look different and offer opportunities to people who, although perfectly well-qualified, might not ordinarily be considered for positions.

I find it hard to believe that in five terms as governor, Howard Dean couldn't find one single minority qualified to serve in his cabinet. But perhaps that actually happened. But before I buy that argument, I'd like to know what efforts Dean made to provide opportunities to minorities. Did he try? Or did he just assume, like you do, that no minorities were qualified for any of these positions. If that's the case, he is the last person who should be lecturing anyone about race.

[Maddy McCall]

54. Your argument is inherently racist...you are saying there are NO qualified

minorities in Vermont to hire, and any that is hired is considered the "token black" which is OHHH SOOO racist.

I may HATE Condoleessa Rice, but I am in awe of her brilliance. Is she just a "token black"?

[stickdog]

157. That's not what I meant. I screwed up, but that doesn't mean Dean was

turning down minorites most or even nearly most qualified for his cabinent position. There's the simple matter here that only 1 in 200 Vermonters in black and less than one in 100 Vermonters is any other specific minority other than white.

Can you name a VT minority whom Dean should have in his cabinent but who wasn't selected? Because if you can't, couldn't it at least be possible that you're rushing to judgement based on a very small sample?

[SEAburb]

78. "Token" your treading on dangerous ground using race baiting

terms like this on DU. Do you think the state of VT doesn't have any qualified minorities? If Dean truly believed in AA he would have search high and low to find qualified minorities to fill positions in his cabinet.

[in_cog_ni_to]

49. Well, I know he thinks there's

a lot of white men in the south who drive pickup trucks with confederate flags on the back. :eyes:




Great point about Sharpton, but Dean does no wrong. Haven't you figured that out yet? How dare you question Howards sincerity!~~sarcasm~~

[Clark Can WIN]

102. EXACTLY !

[bitchkitty]

240. Oh, my yes -

God forbid there should be any kind of a dialogue.

[Kahuna]

249. It's just like the Job/Bible gaffe. He set himself as an "expert.."

and has been shown to be clueless and disengenous once again.

[BuelahWitch]

23. Way to go KMA!

Poor Dean, too bad he didn't think to say that...

[Maddy McCall]

57. It would have lent sincerity to his talk. Sharpton exposed Dean's lack

of authority on the subject.

It proves that the candidate who has claimed to be the first to lecture whites on race is a hypocrite.

[Kahuna]

248. So, now we're using Bush as the criteria for what's right????

I don't think it's Sharpton who is "desperate." :eyes:

[democratreformed]

8. How did this hit the news so fast? Or did I miss something? n/t

[SayitAintSo]

35. It will be all over the news tomorrow - just wait ....incredible

Dean just confirmed his losing the South with that race exchange ... Although I never thought he would play well here anyway. Just sealed it....

[Melinda]

10. Well there ya go; proof positive Dean is racist.

:eyes:

[mbali]

15. Maybe Dean should talk to you about race

and then he can explain to you that raising questions about the consistency of someone's record on race is not even CLOSE to calling them a racist.

[Melinda]

28. Which part of the sarcasm did you miss?

Next time I'll toss in more of these............ :eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes:

[stickdog]

33. What would you have Dean do? Shut up about race entirely?

What do you want him to say that he's not saying?

Please answer. I really want to know. I would sincerely like to learn.

[SayitAintSo]

46. He could start with NOT lecturing the rest of the candidates

on race, claiming that HE was the ONLY one addressing race issues ( remember that?) That was a load of bull hockey to begin with.


With that opener - he walked right into what he got tonight.

This is vintage Dean .... he can dish it out, but he can't take it ...

Bush and Rove will eat him alive ...tsk tsk tsk

[mbali]

50. My problem is not with what he's not saying but with what he's saying

I've been disgusted for months now with Dean's lecturing and posturing and pontificating about being the only white politician talking about race to white audiences, and his consistent implications that anyone who doesn't agree with his approach on race just doesn't understand. He's been patronizing and insulting.

I don't question his motives. I think Dean is sincere and means well. But he doesn't have the background or experience or knowledge on the issue to position himself as superior to all others. Race is a very, very complex issue, one that does not lend itself to catchphrases and bromides and simple solutions. Dean's patronizing and simplistic attitude, in my view, does nothing to solve the problems and, in some way, makes them worse by diminishing them in the eyes of many. It is also insulting to those of us who have devoted our lives to fighting this cause since, implicit in his comments is the notion that everyone else who has ever confronted the issue has failed miserably, but never fear - Howard will step in and do what no one else has been clever enough to accomplish.

So, it's not that there's something I want him to say. Instead, I wish he would shut up and listen for a change and stop trying to convince people that he is the foremost expert on race in the country.

[stickdog]

75. So you don't want any white people talking about race?

Because Dean isn't saying that he's the foremost expert on race relations. What he's saying is exactly what you seem to hate most about him. All he has been saying is that, unlike all the other major candidates, he's not afraid to tell white audiences that racism is still a big problem in the United States.

[mbali]

122. You are completely misreading my post.

I never said that Dean should not talk about race. And I certainly did not say that I didn't want any white people talking about race.

Read my posts again. I said that I have no problem with Dean or anyone else talking about race. The problem is when someone with as sparse a record and as limited experience as Dean has lecturing the rest of us about race and implies that he's superior to all of the other candidates on the issue. It's not that he's talking about race, it's that he's tried to position himself as the MAN on the issue. Any candidate who brags about his approach to race in the way that he has leaves himself open to questions about his own record and qualifications to lecture the rest of us about the issue. And when that candidate's record is as limited as Dean's is, he shouldn't be surprised to get smacked down the way he was tonight.

Bottom line - I have no problem with Dean talking about race. I welcome it. Talk till he's blue in the face. But he should also take a breath from time to time so that he can hear what other people - especially those who know considerably more about the topic than he does - have to say.

[NV1962]

128. Well put - n/t

[Maddy McCall]

150. He's doing the same thing to mine, too. Thinking he can keep on

and eventually we will become frustrated and just give up.

Great post, by the way.

[The Backlash Cometh]

24. Not a racist -- but certainly his past record doesn't show an awareness

or understanding of minority concerns.

[Melinda]

69. I think that's an unfair statement.

Do you know what his actual record on minorities is aside from appointment of cabinet positions?? How many cabinet HEAD positions are in the executive branch of the VT government? How many total positions in the executive branch subject to appointment were there under Dr. Dean administration, and what was the ethnic breakdown of all appointments? What were the criteria used for all said appointments, who actually made said appointments, and so on and so forth.


Bottom line, I think its greatly premature to draw the conclusion that Dean's past record doesn't show an awareness of understanding minority concerns - there is a significant distinction. A lack of appointments to cabinet head positions does not that record, nor that conclusion, make.

[The Backlash Cometh]

151. Another poster in this thread pointed out that there were 20,000

people in Dean's state listed as a minority member. The fact that Dean didn't even manage to appoint one says a great deal. Sorry, but you lose on this issue. It is a very sensitive issue politically, and anyone who REALLY wanted to be a leader for ALL Americans, would have thought of it before now.

I'm not saying I wouldn't vote for Dean, mind you, but let's talk about his weaknesses now and get the story straight, because certainly the Republicans will be ready to bring it up in debate later.

[Melinda]

173. Sorry, but I'm not ready to draw that conclusion w/out seeing all the data

It's how my mind works. It's my curse. :shrug:

[The Backlash Cometh]

274. Well, I'm sure you won't mind if I do reach my own conclusions.

It isn't that hard to find qualified minorities if you're sincere about looking for them.

[Bread and Circus]

32. Proof positive that Dean's rhetoric and record don't match.

[stickdog]

52. I don't get this. Are any of you being sincere?

http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/50000.html

One in 200 people in Vermont is black.

[Octafish]

36. Dunno if Dean's a racist.

I DO know that Dean has Zero Experience when it comes to dealing with America's very real problem of race and bigotry. Dean also has Zero Experience when it comes to many other problems shared by people who don't come from a smaller, wealthier, homogeneous state. Some of these problems facing the nation's large cities include lousy schools, fewer and fewer decent jobs, and drug abuse. That's different than calling the guy a racist.

[Maddy McCall]

100. Excellent point...the best point to made in the whole thread.

[Yupster]

252. Well

Never hired a minority for a cabinet position in eight years, and wants to be the candidate of guys with Confederate flags on their pick-ups.

If you didn't know it was Howard Dean that was being talked about, how would those two points play here on DU?

[Kahuna]

254. Nobody has said Dean is racist. That is not the implication..

Just because a person is clueless that doesn't make him racist. It just makes him clueless and ill prepared to set himself up as the civil rights champion.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

11. how about an asian? or a native american? or an eskimo?

:eyes:

[Maddy McCall]

17. Sharpton asked him "black or brown" so he was including at the very

least American Indians too. He also said "minorities" two or three times.

[hellhathnofury]

14. Kool aid.

[The Backlash Cometh]

19. Score one for Sharpton.

If the man is right, the man is right.

[in_cog_ni_to]

22. My Word! That was fast!

I think that fact reflects poorly on Dean. He may say he will put his civil rights record up against anyones, but Sharpton made a VALID point. Dean looked BAD. He didn't want to answer the question because he KNEW he would look bad. Smells funny to me. :shrug:

[stickdog]

38. Why does it "smell funny"?

Have you ever been to Vermont?

[in_cog_ni_to]

63. Yes, as a matter of fact, I have been to Vermont.

What THAT got to do with ANYTHING posted on this thread? NOTHING. Does it smell somewhere in Vermont?

There's 20,000 AA's in Vermont...as posted above and he couldn't find 1 qualified to serve on his cabinet? Interesting.

[angee_is_mad]

26. He uses his endorsements 4 dealing with it

That is the only thing he can do, since his record sucks!!!! He mentions the endorsements from this and that black congressman. But as Sharpton said, "You only need consigners when your credit is bad!"

[Bread and Circus]

41. Sharpton is aptly named: sharp

[in_cog_ni_to]

68. YUP! He's USING them. Period. n/t

[the populist]

29. Two words:

SO WHAT? Vermont has a negligible percentage of African Americans. Finding African Americans qualified for cabinet positions would have been too difficult. If Dean were governor of Maryland, it would be a different story. But as it is, that's like criticizing the governor of New Jersey for not having Native Americans in his cabinet.

[Bread and Circus]

37. I think your post is racist

This statement is abhorrent:

Finding African Americans qualified for cabinet positions would have been too difficult.

[Bread and Circus]

40. In recent history, the mayor of Lewiston, Maine was black...

and Lewiston, Maine has had very few African Americans.
These sorts of examples kind of shoot your argument in the foot.

Please apologize for your statement.

Thanks.

[LatinManNH]

53. While Sharpton's talking about how many

minorities Dean didn't appoint to his cabinet, is anyone talking about about all the minorities, whites, gays, straights, etc. who have lost their jobs under Bush? Also, what is Sharton's record of job creation? I'd like to see that discussion.

[windansea]

44. so how did Dean become such an expert?

from his roomate at college??

He laid himself wide open when he said he's the only one talking about race like he was the expert

[Sean Reynolds]

60. When did he say he was expert?

Please give me a quote! All he said was that we should be talking about race to white people because for far too long they've ignored the problem. He never said he was an expert in talking about race.

[mbali]

73. "I am the only white politician talking about race to white audiences"

GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS

Your success has made you a target. Senator Lieberman says that your trade policies are gonna turn the Bush recession into a Dean depression. Just the other night at the Congressional Black Caucus debate, Senator Edwards took you on because you said "I'm the only white candidate in the race who talks about race to white audiences." He said that's simply not true. And he's right, isn't he?

HOWARD DEAN

No, he's wrong about that. White politicians always go before black audiences and talk about affirmative action, all this stuff. Sometimes they, as in Joe Lieberman's and Senator Edwards' and others' case, talk about protection of civil rights. They talk about what they were doing in the civil rights movement in the '60s and all that. That's not talking about race. If you want to talk about race and you're white, you have an obligation to talk about the un, the unconscious bias that people exercise over hiring practices, the fact that ...

GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS

But that's not what you said in the debate. I've been on the campaign trail with these guys. And Senator Kerry, Senator Edwards and Senator Lieberman, they talk about race in every single stop.

HOWARD DEAN

But they don't, none of them have attacked the quota system.

GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS

All have attacked President Bush on affirmative action and said he shouldn't call a quotas.

HOWARD DEAN

But they, well, long after I did.

GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS

Now, why not just say, you know, maybe I shouldn't have said it that way?

HOWARD DEAN

Because I think I'm right.

[Sean Reynolds]

86. Quoting something Dean said A LONG time ago?

He even said he was sorry about it. But if that is all you've got, bring it on.

[no name no slogan]

212. "LONG TIME AGO?" WTF???

Sean, Dean SAID this within the last couple months! I don't remember the exact debate, but he did indeed say that he was "the only candidate talking to whites about race".

This line of Dean's stuck out to me like a pork chop at a bar mitzvah. There's no denying that he did not say it, since it's on tape and has been seen by almost anybody who's following this race. And two months ago is not "long ago", ESPECIALLY in a campaign season that's just heating up now.

Dean is NOTORIOUS for saying things like this-- he even admits that he oftentimes says things before thinking them completely through (but I guess that's part of his "charm").

[mbali]

220. Are you SERIOUS?

First of all, that wasn't "a long time ago." It was in September - less than four months ago.

And, more important, he NEVER apologized, nor did he back off of the statement. He continued to insist that it was accurate.

[Clark Can WIN]

230. When do Deans statements expire?

because if that's your standard for a long time ago they must be like Cod fillets in a warm room. When is the good Doctor responsible for what comes out of his mouth and just when does that responsibility end?

[KaraokeKarlton]

130. Thanks to Dean Vermont has true school equality

While the other candidates are talking about there being two different school systems and education discrimination...well, Vermont has TRUE education equality and there is NO discrimination between the haves and the have nots. Dean is the one who made that a reality through ACT 60. Richer towns chip in to help pay for poor towns' schools.

Dean has proven himself on civil rights and true equality with many things he's done. Anyone questioning his commitment to equality should be ashamed of themselves.

[Octafish]

55. Gee. If you have to ask, you'll never know.

That's what Louis Armstron said, when someone asked him to define jazz. Get it?

[in_cog_ni_to]

77. 20,000 is negligible?

Wow. Not ONE of those would have been qualified to serve on his cabinet?

[Maddy McCall]

79. YOUR POSITION IS RACIST

Of twenty thousand minorities (remember, Sharpton asked about "black and brown" and "minorities") there is not one African American or other minority qualified--to locate one would be "too difficult?"

Yeah, they were probably too busy picking up the welfare check or cashing in the food stamps to apply. :puke:

[Clark Can WIN]

142. That's the most openly racist comment I have ever read on DU

I'm amazed. The percentage of AA's in VT is NEGLIGIBlE? TOO HARD to find a qualified African American? Do you picture every African American in Vermont on a porch eating fried chicken?

And FYI first Americans are everywhere. I'm too angry to finish what I want to say, I'll get popped by the mods.

[markus]

43. Six members in his cabinet

Dead said so. He also said a senior member of his staff is a minotiry, but wasn't given an opportunity to expand.

So far I had been impressed by Al Sharpton in the debates. He showed no sign of the horns and pointy tail the media would lead you to expect.

But tonight's attack seem out of the character he had presented in the past debates, and I have to wonder what's afoot. More to the point, who's gotten to him, and what has he been promised?

There was no point to the attack. It was a pure hand grenade with no possible positive outcome.

[oasis]

208. You say "Who's gotten to Sharpton"? Since attacks help Dean to

raise more campaign funds, would it be reasonable then to assume that Trippi is in cahoots with Sharpton?

Should we continue to examine Sharpton's motivations?

[Sean Reynolds]

47. So let me get this straight.

Dean has NO right in talking about race because he didn't have any Hispanic or African Americans in his cabinet as governor? Wow, I guess President Bush has a better race agenda than Dean because he's got more color on his cabinent than Dean had.

Fact is, there are only 3,063 African Americans (0.5%) in Vermont; 5,504 Hispanics (0.9%)in the state. I don't doubt for a second that Dean would have picked a person of color if that chance came along. But reality shows that with only 3,000 African Americans and only 5,500 Hispanics; it'd be hard to find someone to fill a cabinet post.

But it's clear. Dean has no right to talk about race because he's a racist. In that sense, he shouldn't talk about women's rights because he's not a woman. Nor workers rights because he's a politician. Nor education rights because he's not a student and etc.

[mbali]

87. Who said Dean has no right to talk about race?

[Kahuna]

255. He can talk about it all he wants. But he should not pretend...

he is "the" civil rights advocate. That's what he should not do.

[Philosophy]

58. Name one minority issue that Dean is not addressing

And who the heck is in charge of promoting minority issues anyway? I can't even think of one myself.

[Octafish]

71. You don't know any issues of import to minorities?

"Name one minority issue that Dean is not addressing"
Posted by Philosophy

And who the heck is in charge of promoting minority issues anyway? I can't even think of one myself.

Gee. When you're not in the neighborhood, I guess you don't know what you're missing. How about Affirmative Action? Public Education? Public Safety? Racial Profiling? Disappearing Jobs? Etc. etc. My point is that Dean is not familiar with any of these. Seems his supporters aren't either.

[ShimokitaJer]

59. 2000 Census data

Total Vermont population: 613,090

Black: 0.5% = 3,065
Native American: 0.4% = 2,452
Asian: 0.9% = 5,518
Hispanic: 0.9% = 5,518

I notice Sharpton didn't mention Asians -- don't they count as minorities? or did he know that Dean had Asians in his Cabinet so he didn't bring it up?

Face facts people: In a cabinet of six people, it isn't a big deal that there were no minorities represented. There just isn't that large of a minority population in Vermont.

[Hoppin_Mad]

62. AND 24.2 % of the TOTAL VT population is under 18 . . . 12.7 % over 65

[ShimokitaJer]

83. That takes at least another one-third out of the running

It's not looking like all that big of a pool of candidates anymore, is it people?

And of those six people in the cabinet, how many of them have stayed with Dean for longer than a single term?

Besides, what makes you think educated, capable minorities in Vermont have been beating the door down to get a position in Dean's cabinet?

I'm really disappointed in Sharpton. That was a cheap shot and he must have known it.

[Maddy McCall]

89. Yeah and it takes one third out of whites also

But the ratio remains the same, so your silly argument is moot.

I can't believe you guys are struggling so hard to defend the record of a man who talks race but never appointed a "black or brown" person to his cabinet.

[ShimokitaJer]

97. You're the one spouting the "20,000 minorities to choose from" crap

It turns out the actual number is considerably smaller.

Did you actually bother to look anything up, or did you just take a guess and judge Dean based on that?

Yeah, I thought so.

[Maddy McCall]

112. I provided the link several times. Can YOU not add?

So take out a third. That still leaves 13,000+ minorities from which to chose.

Are you saying that finding a qualified minority is more difficult than finding a needle in a haystack?

At any rate, your candidate has zero experience in governing a racially diverse state, and now Sharpton has shown that he has zero experience in working administratively with minorities.

He won't recover from this revelation tonight, no matter how hard you protest.

[ShimokitaJer]

145. You really can't add, can you?

Sharpton specified blacks and hispanics. Don't ask me why he didn't include Asians, Pacific Islanders, Native Americans, etc. but I'm sure he had his reasons, none of which included attempting a fair discussion of minorities. Perhaps he knew that Dean did in fact have an Asian, Pacific Islander, Native American, etc. in his cabinet and didn't want that to be known.

There are a total of 8,500 black and hispanic men, women, and children in Vermont. I don't know where you got your 2% figure, or where you got your figure of 1 million in population, but both are incorrect. Your own links show this. But even given your exaggerated figures, 2% of the population for 6 Cabinet positions is pretty darn small. If Cabinet positions were changed yearly (which they are not) and if they were chosen strictly on the basis of racial percentages (which I certainly hope they are not), we could expect there to be a black or hispanic member once every nine years. Given that these are all averages, with the most extreme conditions considered, it is not all that surprising that Dean could last twelve years in office without a black or hispanic candidate and have it be due to something other than the racism you are so quick to accuse him of.

You are race baiting. And worse, you're accusing others of doing the same. I just pray that Dean doesn't feel about race the way that you clearly do, or there truly is no hope for the future of race relations in this country.

[Maddy McCall]

178. Sharpton said "black or brown" and "minorities"

But if you are classifying people by the color of their skin, then YOU have a tough problem ahead of you.

I will NOT get into a debate with you over which minorities fall into which categories, brown or black, or whether Indians are red and Asians are yellow and if they are included in "black or brown".

I won't go there. That is so nineteenth-century racist that you can argue that one out by yourself.

On the census, people are asked to identify their race---they aren't asked if they are black or brown or yellow or red.

Sharpton was talking about minorities--he said "minorities" and he said "black and brown."

Do you know that Dean has a Pacific Islander on his cabinet? DO you know that he has an American Indian on his cabinet?

Or do you plan to defend Dean tooth and nail no matter what is revealed about him?

[ShimokitaJer]

243. Then it's Sharpton who's racist

I'm just looking at the census data, which doesn't mention skin color. If Sharpton chose to specify skin color in this, I don't see how that makes him more enlightened. If Dean can make it through the day judging people without judging people based on the color of their skin and Sharpton can't, I know who I'd rather have as president

Sharpton is way behind in the polls and he saw an opportunity for a cheap shot that couldn't help him but could only harm another candidate. He had clearly researched the answer alreday, since he specified "cabinet" rather than "administration," which would have gotten a different answer, and he phrased his attack in such a way that he hoped would make Dean look like a racist. As near as I can tell, that backfired, since the only people I see being convinced, already thought Dean was Satan, and everyone else knows it's a non-issue and is disgusted with Sharpton for playing with it.

Even you must understand that you lose credibility when you encourage this kind of divisiveness and race baiting.

[diamondsoul]

269. BINGO! My thoughts exactly!

I cannot believe people here are falling for this low blow from Sharpton.*sigh*

I'm beginning to see why some Dean supporters can be so angry. This one is pathetic.

Here's another thing, people, Cabinet positions aren't exactly easy to qualify for! These have to be people Dean can communicate with on a regular basis, who can advise him in such a way that actually WILL impact his decisions, and they have to KNOW what advice is good advice on one hell of a lot of issues! The duties that fall on the shoulders of a Cabinet member are not duties I would want to take on, and that being the case I have to believe there are lots of people who feel the same way.

Take all of the above into account, add the low percentage of minority Vermont residents and you have a recipe for hunting down a needle in a haystack. When the hell is a Governor supposed to pull that off and still manage to Govern his State?

And THEN to top it all off Sharpto brings in the "import talent" BS. Howard Dean was under an obligation to Govern Vermont, not other States. His duty was to find people in his State to advise him about the OTHER residents in his State. He has NO obligation to seek an out of State minority person to fill a cabinet position because he's got too many whites in it! That's just as much tokenism as hiring someone underqualified.

[Padraig18]

61. Pure canard

There are SIX people in the freakin' cabinet, and about 3.6 total minority population.

What a crock for a thread. talk about race-baiting... :puke:

[Octafish]

76. Thread's no crock. It's the Dean record.

Oh yeah. Dean's record is a crock. I've been saying that for a long time.

[Padraig18]

85. OoooOoOoOo...

The thread is a crock of race-baiting shit!

[Octafish]

111. What's the lie? Dean's record is what it is.

A canard implies a lie. The fact is Dean has had zero African-Americans or Hispanics in his cabinet in the 12 years Dean was governor of Vermont.

There is a lie, however. It is in the hearts* of those who believe Dean is anything more than a windbag. His record is that of a zero.


* Who or what put it there, or allowed it in, are other matters.

[Padraig18]

118. What does a 21.6% minority person look like, any way?

3.6% minority population x 6-person cabinet. This thread was started to play the race card and bash gov. Dean, and I'm not playing any more. Good night.

[ant]

64. I'd say that's racist

Gee. No wonder Dean has a problem attracting support from the Hispanic and African-American communities. When it comes to being a real Democrat, Dean is all TALK.

This might come as a surprise to some people, but not all minorities pick their candidates on "minority" issues alone. I'm hispanic, but one of my main concerns is national security, and that's part of why Dean (and Clark) appeal to me. Quite frankly, I don't give a rat's ass about how many hispanics or blacks Dean had in his administration, and this idea that a candidate won't appeal to me simply because he didn't have people like me in his cabinet is a bit condescending. I can see past race, and as long as he's got qualified people enacting good policy, they could be green for all I care. This discussion of how many blacks or browns were in the cabinet is about window dressing, not substance. I find it a bit insulting.

[Octafish]

82. Yo tambien. I'm Puerto Rican and Proud.

Where's the condescension? The fact is the guy made zero effort to get any perspective other than the majority community on his cabinet. Too bad, but that's the verdad.

BTW: If you think Dean's the candidate for National Security experience, you've been spending too much time reading Trippi's blog.

[ant]

126. Colombiana here

Where's the condescension?

I find it condescending because to say Dean doesn't address "minority" issues implies the issues he does address are for whites only. The economy, health care, national security - these are issues that transcend race and concern ALL people. It's not like blacks and hispanics tune in only to hear about affirmative action and immigration.

The fact is the guy made zero effort to get any perspective other than the majority community on his cabinet. Too bad, but that's the verdad.

It does not follow that simply because all cabinet members were white there was no effort to get an alternative perspective. What's more, it's not smart to assume that simply because someone is black or hispanic they DO have an alternative view.

And can anyone cite a specific example of an issue in VT where this lack of diversity on the cabinet became relevant? The poster below here seems to imply that race relations in VT are pretty good, so to a certain extent it seems that people are jugding Dean's record in VT against a national standard, which is absurd. I grew up in Miami, so I know how race issues can vary across the country. You don't get the traditional white/black race thing down there; you get cuban/haitian or intra-racial racism (lighter skinned latinos discriminating against darker skinned ones). My point is that someone from NYC is going to have a very different experience with race relations than someone in Miami, and both of those people will have a different experience than someone in VT. And I do think it's fair to point out that VT is a pretty white state.

I don't know, this whole line of criticism just strikes me as silly and pointless.

BTW: If you think Dean's the candidate for National Security experience, you've been spending too much time reading Trippi's blog.

I didn't say I was looking for experience on that issue. I'm looking for smart ideas and policies.

[Octafish]

159. Ormiga o gusana -- no importa.

Dean is a zero when it comes to being a Democrat, let alone a President.

Here's what his Zero Experience when it comes to minority issues overlaps Attorney General Ashcroft's worldview more than a Democrat:

Progressives and the Dean Campaign

by Norman Solomon

SNIP...

Economic justice has been a much lower priority. During the early 1990s, Dean spearheaded a new "workfare" state law requiring labor from welfare recipients. The Vermont program later won praise as more humane "welfare reform" than what occurred in most other states. But in the summer of 1996, Dean put his weight behind the final push for President Clinton's national "welfare reform" law -- a draconian measure, slashing at an already shabby safety-net while forcing impoverished mothers to work low-wage jobs.

While some other Democrats angrily opposed Clinton's welfare reform, it won avid support from Dean. "Liberals like Marian Wright Edelman are wrong," he insisted. "The bill is strong on work, time limits assistance and provides adequate protection for children." Dean co-signed a letter to Clinton calling the measure "a real step forward."

Gov. Dean did not mind polarizing with poor people, but he got along better with the corporate sector. "Conservative Vermont business leaderspraise Dean's record and his unceasing efforts to balance the budget, even though Vermont is the only state where a balanced budget is not constitutionally required," Business Week reported in its August 11 (2003) edition. "Moreover, they argue that the two most liberal policies adopted during Dean's tenure -- the 'civil unions' law and a radical revamping of public school financing -- were instigated by Vermont's ultraliberal Supreme Court rather than Dean." The magazine added: "Business leaders were especially impressed with the way Dean went to bat for them if they got snarled in the state's stringent environmental regulations."

According to Business Week, "those who know him best believe Dean is moving to the left to boost his chances of winning the nomination." A longtime Dean backer named Bill Stenger, a Vermont Republican who's president of Jay Peak Resort, predicted: "If he gets the nomination, he'll run back to the center and be more mainstream."

CONTINUED...

http://www.progress.org/2003/sol125.htm

BTW: Ask me about Dean's military record. I'll link you to where he says his back was good enough to ski all winter on AND serve the US Army with. Rich people get away with draft dodging. Poor people from my besindario didn't.

[LatinManNH]

188. Ethnic slurs

like "gusana" are really uncalled for, and for someone who is so proud of their Puerto Rican heritage, learn how to spell "vecindario," my friend.

[Octafish]

210. No slur intended. Politics is the intention.

The subject is Dean and his record. In bringing him up, I didn't slur anyone or call anybody a name. I stated it doesn't matter what one's politics are, or the labels such as "ant" or "worm" as defined or used by my Cuban friends in Miami symbolize.

One more thing: Sorry about the spelling, my friend.

BTW: A hearty welcome to DU, LatinManNH! Down with the BFEE. Twelve posts, already! Keep up the good trabajo.

[LatinManNH]

226. Thanks for the welcome

I rarely post, but issues like these often inspire me to do more than lurk the threads. I am a big advocate for healthy debate, and if Dean has done anything it has been getting people to discuss the issue of race in ways we're not used to. I sometimes wish he were more articulate because I believe he has good intentions and he really cares about the state of this country. But other times I appreciate his blunt style over the pre-packaged soundbites we've come to expect as political discourse in this country.

BTW, did you know that Nydia Velazquez has endorsed Dean? Now she's definitely a politician who knows about grassroots among the Latino community.

[ant]

218. well then I guess I'm not a democrat either

I agree with Dean on practically every issue. In fact, right now I'm having a hard time thinking of a single issue that we disagree on.

And yes, I know rich people get away with draft dodging, and I suspect Dean is aware of how issues of class and military enlistment intertwine. His comments tonight on the problems that might be created by granting citizenship to those who enlist were very thoughtful and smart.

[LatinManNH]

84. Most intelligent post so far

Thanks, ant. Latino here, too, and the way some people talk about race is demeaning. I live in NH and VT and I can say that people here deal with race a lot better than in other areas where the race-baiters consider themselves so enlightened. People in VT, for the most part, see you as a person first, but no one stops you or criticizes you for being who you are or practicing a different culture.

[papau]

93. Amen to that thought

:-)

[ant]

134. exactly: a person FIRST

It's funny to me how the attacks on Dean on this issue reflect exactly the sort of problems he's trying to talk about.

I'm not being treated as a voter or a citizen in this discussion, I'm being treated first and foremost as hispanic. The first thing people see is my race and from there they make assumptions about what must concern me.

[LatinManNH]

153. ant, your posts

are very much appreciated. I grew up in inner-city Chicago and went to public schools that were 88% minority. Yet I feel safer in VT than in my old neighborhood. Not because of race, but becauuse in my old neighborhood is wracked with drug and gang crime due to lack of jobs and and lack of funding to education. I think Dean has a proven record of addressing these very important issues, which affect all Americans, no matter what their skin color is. And surprise, Burlington, VT has a Latino Fest every summer and I see many whites here who join in, dance, and enjoy our cultural expression to the fullest. Although a few of individuals could use a few salsa lessons, but that does not stop everyone from having a good time. It seems to me that when Sharpton talks about race, he talks about racial discord and not harmony.

[ShimokitaJer]

103. hear hear

Of course, you just better be grateful to the kind white folks for standing up on your behalf. Clearly you don't appreciate the finer points of racism they're trying to explain to you.

[ant]

136. this is why...

...I need Dean to talk to them for me. ;)

[KaraokeKarlton]

106. Actually, he would've appointed blacks and hispanics is there were any

living here in Vermont who were both qualified and wanted a position. Fact is, Vermont is a somewhat sleepy, rural state that doesn't much appeal to many blacks and hispanics. Whaddya gonna do?

:shrug:

[Octafish]

278. That's what people of color have been hearing for ...

...ever. That's why Dean doesn't have a clue. And like people who don't look like him, the problems facing America aren't what Dean's used to seeing in Vermont.

[BeyondGeography]

66. Vermont is a problem for us

It's a fringe state with skewed demographics, no cities and will be easily lampooned by the Right in the GE.

None of this is fair to Howard, who is TRYING to be intelligent about race, but look at what we're faced with: If Dean's the nominee, Bush can claim he ran a more inclusive administration as Governor of Texas than Howard Dean.

Tweety's calling this the highlight of the debate right now...

[KaraokeKarlton]

114. No, the highlight of the debate was when Carol gave Sharpton and Edwards

a piece of her mind. CMB for VP! She's solidly my number 2 choice after tonight. Sharpton and Edwards got TOLD. :D

[maxanne]

124. who cares what Bush says?

Why does he get to determine the discourse?

The claim could just as easily be made that Texas is a fringe state, with skewed demographics, has cities with the worst air pollution in the ocountry - and it can easily be lampooned by the left.

[corporatewhore]

72. Oh no who will be our white savior now!!

-one brown girl who is pissed because dean likes to use us brown folk as props and lecture topics and wave the confederate flag while doing it

[Maddy McCall]

92. Exactly.

I made that point earlier, and it makes CMB look like a race apologist.

[Name removed]

107. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Clark Can WIN]

81. This the same Dean that just got done saying you can't fix racism by

making white people feel guilty? The same one that just went on and said that every single human baing has a NATURAL tendency to hire people that are their same color?

It's like watching a fucking train wreck.

[mbali]

90. So sad to see so many of Dean's supporters

use the exact same arguments that people have been using for years to justify racial discrimination. "I'm not discriminating. I just haven't been able to find any QUALIFIED minorities for the job."

Maybe when Dean is going around talking to white audiences about race, he should start with his own supporters.

[corporatewhore]

94. maybe dean should give himself a lecture on racism in hiring

[Clark Can WIN]

162. I guess when he's been going around talking to these "white folk"

he's been letting them know that every single human being has a natural tendency to hire only people that look like they do.

Thanks for including all of us in your vision of universal racism, Doctor Dean.

[corporatewhore]

91. same NEW ENGLANDER who likes the Confederate Flag

Note-Am not trying to be anti new englander but why would a new englander use the confederate flag which is not a part of his culture

[John_H]

95. Yup another reason why howard's "grassroots" support is gonna

carry him, eh? Wake up folks,it's about winning.

Chimp is going to trot out Colin and Condi and say see, "I appointed african american people and you didn't." Then the media is going to make a big deal out of it. Then the democratic party is going to have to go around to african american communities and ask them to get excited about howard dean.

[KaraokeKarlton]

98. Well, since Vermont has almost no blacks or hispanics...

isn't it kinda unrealistic to expect Dean to be able to find a minority who was qualified who lived here?

:shrug:

[Padraig18]

104. What does a 21.6% minority person look like, any way?

3.6% of a 6-person cabinet = .216/person. :shrug:

[Padraig18]

113. You could get close, I suppose (25%)...

A Black grandmother, or a Vietnamese grandfather, or something....

[KaraokeKarlton]

192. Well, I think he had a part native american cabinet member

So in that case, he would have met the 21.6%

This has got to be one of the most inane complaints about Dean yet. Sharpton knows Vermont has practically no minorities. What does he expect, for Dean to hire an out of state minority to represent Vermont's interests?

:shrug:

[mbali]

108. You don't think there was even one single qualified minority

in the entire state whom Dean could have hired? Not one?

That's exactly the kind of argument that has been used for decades to justify racial discrimination. NOBODY ever discriminates. They just can't find any qualified minorities.

[KaraokeKarlton]

209. Okay, the Vermont capitol is Montpelier

Have you ANY idea just how rural Vermont is? The bulk of the black people in Vermont at any given time are Jamaicans who come to Vermont on work permits from spring to fall. My town flies the Jamaican flag to honor our guests. We love them! We have an annual reggae festival that is extremely popular and we aren't at all biased or prejudiced. In my daughter's school there were three black kids out of over 700 students. Two of them were siblings. In fact, black people in Vermont are almost a novelty and people go out of their way to befriend them. If a black person who was qualified for a cabinet position had made their interest known, Dean would have definitely given them a position.

So, yes...it's a VERY safe bet that Dean simply didn't know a black or hispanic person he could appoint to a cabinet position. Oh, and Montpelier is even smaller than the town of the school I mentioned. It's really kind of comical at just how small it is, in fact. The capitol resides on the small, rather inconsequential little New England Main Street with a few brick buildings and virtually no parking. This wasn't some slight on Dean's part...it was just a case of rural Vermont not being all that appealing to minorities. To try to make it anything else takes assuming the worst about a state who welcomes minorities here with open arms. It's kind of offending, to be quite honest with you.

[mbali]

99. Why are Dean supporters so pissed off by Sharpton's questions?

After all, wasn't it Dean himself who said that we have to have a discussion on race? Well, that's what Sharpton was trying to have. We have to have a discussion that talks about the bias that every human being - black white or brown - has toward hiring people who look like them. Only then can we understand why minorities are held down by hiring practices.

Why is it ok for Dean to talk to everyone about these issues, but no one is supposed to talk to him about them?

[democratreformed]

109. Maybe it's just the whites who are supposed to talk about it

Boy, I messed that one up real bad. What I meant was "How dare a black person bring up race?!" That, to me, is the opinion conveyed by the outrage.

[corporatewhore]

120. when dean talks about race it comes off as pandering and patronizing

to me.He went on about he was the only white guy willin to talk about racism and he gave a spech recently about racism in hiring. its just like his anti war hot air when push comes to shove dean is just a bunch of rhetoric.You cant talk about racism and carry the confederate flag

[maxanne]

132. but it comes off

as natural and genuine when Bush speaks horrid Spanish, in an attempt to suck up to Latino voters?

[corporatewhore]

135. no and i dont want another bush thank you!

[LatinManNH]

121. Excuse me but..

"Why is it ok for Dean to talk to everyone about these issues, but no one is supposed to talk to him about them?"

Talk to him or talk AT him? Sharpton does minorities a disservice with his grand-standing and accusatory tones. I, for one, do not appreciate his implication that Dean is not honest about race because of a perceived lack of association with racial minorities. I don't personally know any Tibetans--does that mean I am anti-Tibetan?

[mbali]

127. Straw man alert

No one has said that because Dean has a pathetic record on race that he is anti-black. Stop playing that game.

The point that is being made - and obviously very effectively, given the Dean crowd's flailing about this evening - is that, given Dean's sketchy record on race, he is no position to lecture others about race or to try to position himself as the candidate who is strongest on this issue.

Sharpton is not grandstanding. He merely asked Dean questions that you guys don't like.

[maxanne]

129. I think you've hit on something

LatinManNH - Dean isn't supposed to talk about race. Being from Vermont automatically disqualifies him from knowning anything about it. He should have left home at about age 4 - and gone to live with a poor black family so he'd have some credibility when he decided to run for president as an adult.

And yes, you are anti-Tibetan. If you weren't you'd have found a way to meet some Tibetans by now. ;-)

[corporatewhore]

131. Dean shouldnt use us as props

damn it i am so fucking tired of this.Dean shouldnt gives lectures on things he doesnt know about.And instead of living with a black family at age 4 he should have hired a black person to his cabinet to bring diversity and another perspective

[maxanne]

143. perhaps

you should get some sleep, if you're so fucking tired.

So:

Dennis Kucinich hasn't been married - therefore he can't speak about marriange.

Teachers who have never been to space aren't qualified to teach about the solar system.

Sports commentators who have never played football should not talk about it.

I should not speak about Republicans - because I've never been one!

:eyes:

[corporatewhore]

149. First of all

Dennis kucinich has been married

teachers who have never been to space can give lectures if they know about it.If dean did know aabout racism and racism in hiring practices and didnt think hire any minorities as to bring more prespective in his cabinet well i think that is worse

I dont know anything about football so no i wouldnt talk about it i would however if i was truly interested would ask questions and try to become familar with the topic instead of trying to pretend that i knew alot and give lectures

[maxanne]

161. I am curious

as to why someone who identifies as a brown woman, concerned about racism - would use a nick with the word whore in it. I'd be interested to hear your reasoning, if you care to share it.

So teachers are okay to lecture on the solar system if they know about it. It just isn't okay for Dean to discuss race, because he can't possibly know anything about it. Your argument isn't very convincing - or well thought out.

However,I fear we can't discuss race any more, because not only am I white, but I live in northern NH, where we don't have many people of color. Ergo, I know nothing about it, just like Howard Dean.

[mbali]

168. Let me say this again . . .

No one is saying that Dean should not be talking about race. But he has been doing much more than talking about it. He has been lecturing everyone else as if he is the world's greatest living expert on the topic and everyone else are just clueless, backward lumps. THAT is why Sharpton finally smacked him down.

I am perfectly happy to hear what Dean has to say about race and commend him for trying to generate a dialogue. But I have been disgusted by his constant implications that he has discovered the Holy Grail on race. I have found his attitude patronizing and obnoxious.

Perhaps now he'll be a little more careful - and even a bit less condescending - toward everyone else. Sharpton has shown the world that Dean is simply not in any position to lecture the rest of us about race. He has much to learn and maybe tonight he took the first step.

[maxanne]

179. yes,

what you really are saying is that Dean should not be talking about race. That is exactly the bottom line in what you are saying.

"I am perfectly happy to hear what Dean has to say about race and commend him for trying to generate a dialogue."

Okay - you sound good so far - BUT then in the next sentence:

"But I have been disgusted by his constant implications that he has discovered the Holy Grail on race. I have found his attitude patronizing and obnoxious."

You can't have it both ways, though you certainly are trying to. It's okay for Dean to talk about race - as long as he doesn't. :eyes:

[mbali]

196. Apparently, you don't understand that it's possible to discuss race

without lecturing and pontificating about it.

That's an easy misunderstanding for people who are unfamiliar with the issue. But to those of us who have dealt with this issue in-depth, it is not all that complicated. People of all colors have been discussing race for years without patronizing, pontificating or insulting everyone in sight. Policitians - white and black - have been doing this for some time. That's why Dean's approach has been so irritating to us.

I'll say it again. I have no problem with Dean discussing race. I DO have a problem with Dean and his supporters telling me and others who have considerably more insight into and experience with the issue that he is an expert on the topic, that all other white politicians are just eating his dust, and that our failure to recognize his special qualifications on the issue means that we're either clueless or Bush apologists.

Now, if you believe that the only way to discuss race is the way that Howard Dean has been doing it, then it is perfectly understandable that you can't figure out the difference between talking about race in a constructive way and talking about it in the obnoxious manner that Dean has engaged in. But as long as Dean and his supporters fail to grasp the difference, he's going to continue to face humiliating moments like that he endured tonight.

[maxanne]

202. can you even hear yourself?

"Apparently you don't understand that it's possible to discuss race without lecturing and pontificating about it.
That's an easy misunderstanding for people who are unfamiliar with the issue."

And you aren't pontificating and condescending to me? You don't have a clue about who I am or what my experience is - but you don't have any problem doing EXACTLY what you're accusing Dean of. Careful where you point that finger, mbali.

[KaraokeKarlton]

215. Well, the question was very unfair, and Sharpton knows that

Everyone knows Vermont has virtually no minority residents. Because of that it's really unrealistic to expect Dean to be able to find someone who was a minority, qualified AND interested in the position for his cabinet. Sharpton implied there was an intentional slight on Dean's behalf, and that's not the case. There simply wasn't anyone Dean knew of to appoint. That's why Dean supporters are disgusted with Sharpton's question. If Dean was the governor of NY and he didn't have any minorities in his cabinet, THAT would be a valid criticism. But Vermont? Let's be fair, here, shall we?

[mbali]

223. How is the question unfair?

Don't you agree that we have to have a discussion that talks about the bias that every human being - black white or brown - has toward hiring people who look like them? Only then can we understand why minorities are held down by hiring practices. Why then is it wrong for Howard Dean to engage in this discussion himself?

[KaraokeKarlton]

231. It was unfair because there are almost no blacks or hispanics in Vermont

If there is virtually no minority population to tap into to fill a cabinet position from, how, pray tell, could anyone expect Dean to appoint a minority? There would have to actually be a minority who wanted a position in the cabinet, had the qualifications for the position, and lived in Vermont. Let's be realistic here, shall we? First of all, individuals qualified to serve in cabinet positions are not a dime a dozen as it is. Finding someone qualified who is available, wants the position who is also a minority is like finding a needle in a haystack. Anyone who doesn't recognize that is either just plain dumb or just doesn't want to recognize it.

[mbali]

234. Had Dean wanted to diversify his cabinet, he would have diversfied

his cabinet. It's not that difficult. Unless you believe that there was not one single solitary minority person in all of the state of Vermont who was qualified to serve in Howard Dean's cabinet, you would have to agree that if diversity were a priority for Howard Dean, he would have made this happen.

Moreover, this discussion about the percentage of minorities in Vermont is a bit misleading. There is no rule or law that limits a governor to filling his cabinet positions to people who are born and bred in the state.

[KaraokeKarlton]

258. Bullshit

When a state only has 3000 blacks to begin with (including children and the elderly) it's going to be virtually impossible to find a black person who is qualified, wants to leave their current job for a 2 year position, and who Dean even knows.

It seems that you're implying that Dean should have brought in someone from outside of Vermont to appoint to one of the 6 cabinet positions? Sorry, but state politics are about the state, and it's not appropriate to bring out of staters in to fill those positions. That would be like the Mayor of Oakland appointing me to oversee minority issues. :eyes:

[adadem]

221. Once again

he started it...opened the door on this topic...then when things don't go his way or he gets called on the carpet he goes running off crying "they were mean to me". Give me a break. Sharpton's question was appropriate and I'm thrilled he had to courage to press Dean for a truthful answer.

[maxanne]

267. where

is it written that Dean "went off crying they were mean to me?" Can you provide me with some proof that this occured?

[adadem]

284. Complaining to McAuliffe

that everybody was being mean to him. Give me a break.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=FA0614F6385A0C738FDDAB0994DB404482

[nancyharris]

110. Data from the Burlington Community & Economic Development Office

http://www.cedoburlington.org/racism/Anti-Racism_Facts.htm

[RetroLounge]

115. Well lets see...

Bush has Rice and Powell.

Yup, let let George talk about race relations and policy. He's obviously better suited. He had BLACKS in his cabinet. WOW!

Screw Dean, I'm thru with him. You've convinced me.







































NOT.

[Catherine Vincent]

138. There's probably not that many blacks and hispanics way up

there in Vermont anyways. Or am I wrong?

[maxanne]

144. nope

you're absolutely right. Plenty of French Canadians though.

[nancyharris]

148. Vermont:

While only .2% of white Vermonters were in jail on June 1, 2001, 12% of all African-American Vermonters were incarcerated on that date.

[Maddy McCall]

146. According to census data

Over 20,000 non-white minorities in Vermont. Over 15,000 black, American Indian, and hispanic.

[ShimokitaJer]

154. Wrong, wrong, and wrong

Where do you keep getting these fake numbers? They certainly aren't on any of the links you claim to be checking.

* According to the 2000 Census, in Vermont, 0.5% (3,063) of its residents self identify as African-American, 0.9% (5,217) as Asian (all nationalities combined), Hispanic 0.9% (5,504) and 0.4% (2,420) as Native American

[Maddy McCall]

158. Add it up...that's over 15,000

and then add in the biracial nonwhites who consider themselves minorities, and you have OVER TWENTY-THOUSAND PEOPLE.

Any introductory sociology class teaches interpretation of this basic data.

[texas is the reason]

152. 100% population divided by 6 cabinet positions= 16.6%of pop.per position..

in the vermont cabinet.call it 2, call it 3, call it 15 percent of the vermont population that are minorities, how does that mean that dean MUST have a cabinet level position held by a minority to be representative of the demographics of the state that he governed??

[Maddy McCall]

155. The point is that he didn't HAVE to but he SHOULD have appointed a minorit

especially since he is lecturing others on the topic. His record doesn't bear out his rhetoric.

[texas is the reason]

169. why should he have to hire someone from 3% of the population.....

to represent the best that 16.6% would have had to offer? the odds are, the best 6 people in vermont for that position are not minorities (based on vermont's demographics), and dean should choose the best man or woman for the job, not chose someone from a group of 3 percent to represent the best candidate out of 16.6% of the population.

[corporatewhore]

156. you are totally right minorties shouldnt be represented

nor should they be given posistions to give some prespective on

[texas is the reason]

174. they should be represented relative to the demographics of the state...

to hire a minority who may be lesser qualified solely because they are a minority would be racist as well, would it not?

[Clark Can WIN]

180. If diversity is actually important to you as opposed to just being

a pandering point, it would not.

[texas is the reason]

193. diversity should not come at the expense of more qualified individuals..

that is my view, and i am subsequently against affirmative action. i do agree with you that dean panders the race issue somewhat, and i really wish he would stop...

[mbali]

200. Do you really believe that every single member of Dean's cabinet

during his 12 years in office was the absolutely most qualified person in the state to hold the position? Are white guys in high position are just presumed to be qualified while, on the other hand, minorities are presumed not to be qualified to hold the same positions?

[texas is the reason]

no, but that should be the goal.

[Very Good Dem]

238. And you think that the only way to accomplish that is to

have only whites in the cabinet?

[mbali]

198. Dean's tough talk on race has been exposed as just a rehash of

do as I say, not as I do . . .

[texas is the reason]

205. see response below.

[mbali]

160. Do Dean supporters have any idea how pathetic this spin sounds

Dean blew it tonight. He can recover, but you guys need to admit that this is a soft spot for him. Trying to defend his abysmal record on minority hiring makes you sound like the anti-civil rights types who can always find a justification for not hiring minorities.

[texas is the reason]

177. his record is not abyssmal considering the demographic makeup of vermont..

two or three percent of the population to fill one of six positions is not a strong applicant pool.....

[Clark Can WIN]

190. In 5 terms? 12 years not one minority?

I'm not buying what Dean is selling here. Diversity in his cabinet was not a priority to him. This is self evident.

[texas is the reason]

199. i am sure he didn't replace his cabinet each term.

it is a valid point exactly how many different cabinet members he had though... but i still doubt that the numbers would paint him as racist.

[mbali]

207. No one has called Dean a racist.

[texas is the reason]

224. well then i think we probably agree on this, mbali..

i don't think he is a racist either, but agree with you that he has not positioned himself to be the "race candidate", as he has been trying to do. i really wish he would just get back to his strong issues, and leave the pandering out of it... but this was the "black and brown" debate, so racial issues were sure to come to the forefront.

[Maddy McCall]

183. There are four die-hard Dean fans making the most absurd arguments

and many of the most fervant Dean fans that I usually encounter are absent from this thread.

That says a lot--that most Dean supporters realize it was bad for Dean tonight.

And the four or five who continue on and on ad nauseum only want to have the last word on the subject.

The absurdity of their arguments need to be seen by all, so I will make a point to kick this thread every time I think about it.

[maxanne]

197. why not

name names and state the absurd arguments? Why dance around the subject?

[texas is the reason]

216. yeah, i normally stay out of this moshpit of a forum.....

but tonight i am feeling feisty! OHH YEAHH I'M THE MACHO MAN!!!! hehehehe.. but i feel i make some good points, points that you are clearly having a hard time refuting..and anyone will look slightly off when they are constantly fending off attacks from supposed comerades in the war against bush...oh well, i am sure we will all come together again in a few weeks when a winner is chosen- it can't come soon enough for any of us....

[in_cog_ni_to]

185. No, they don't.

They will defend him no matter what. He's perfect. He doesn't do or say anything wrong. Remember that. :7

[oasis]

227. Methinks Jesse Jackson Jr. will be getting a lot of face time next week in

a damage contol move by Trippi.

[mzmolly]

195. He did hire minorities, they just weren't on his cabinet of *six* people.

What's pathetic is this opportunistic bullshit that Sharpton is pulling. And, it is further compounded opportunistic DU-ers who are desperate to see Dean fail.

CM Braun is rightfully concerned that Al might further discourage people of color from voting with his divisive grandstanding.

*Howard Dean funded schools in poor communities at the same level as those in wealthy communities *few states can claim that success*

*Howard Dean provided Health Care for 98% of Vermont citizens *few states can claim that success

*Howard Dean lowered child abuse rates by a phenominal amount while in Vermont by offering outreach programs to those who desired help *few states can claim that success - I say that as a poor child who grew up in a physically abusive home. This issue is important to ME.

*Howard Dean supports Affirmative Action

*Howard Dean may be the ONE that competes with George Bush.

It's time Al seek attention in other, more productive ways.

[Maddy McCall]

213. Six POSITIONS--and a 12 year administration...many more than 6 ppl

Over the course of three administrations, he had at LEAST 18 opportunities to fill those 6 positions.

And, as I said before:

Staffer means everything from administrative assistants to typists. More grunt work in being a staffer and less responsibility.

A cabinet position requires great faith in ability, and carries much more responsibility than does a staffer postition. Cabinet responsibilities are huge and the person making the appointments demonstrates faith in appointees by appointing them to these positions. What the cabinet does reflects on the governor.

[mbali]

225. Actually, it was five Administrations . . . two year terms

[mbali]

237. There are many more than 6

According to Vermont's website, there are more than 40 agencies and departments in the state, all of which are headed by gubanatorial appointees. Did Dean appoint minorities to any of these positions?

[maxanne]

268. still waiting

for a response and possible apology to post #202

[zulchzulu]

163. As much as I don't support Dean, I doubt he's a racist

This issue will smack Dean's lead upside da head in Saf Carilline, y'all.

But it's kind of silly based on the fact that Vermont is 98% honky crackers.

Seriously, this kind of reverse-racism charge is silly. How many whites has Sharpton hired in whatever the hell he does?

[Octafish]

166. Question isn't racism. It's Action.

Dean's actions don't match his rhetoric. If the guy believes in the things Democrats do — that all people are created equal — he'd give employment opportunities to minorities. Dean's record shows he has made zero effort to do so.

[corporatewhore]

170. I dont think he is racist just full of hot air

[mbali]

171. Why is it so hard for people to understand?

No one is accusing Dean of racism. But he's been going around lecturing everyone else about race, insisting that he's the only white candidate talking about race, that he's the only one with the ability to talk straight about race, that he is the right guy to explain to angry white men why affirmative action is important, etc. Given that, he shouldn't be surprised if people want to see what his own record on affirmative action is. And it turns out that his own record is pretty bad. That doesn't make him racist, but it does call into question the propriety of his lectures and self-aggrandizement. It also amplifies the concern that he may not be the best person to take on George W. Bush this fall.

[texas is the reason]

181. i agree that he should soften his rhetoric a bit about race...

it is not his strongpoint, and he only exposes himself to more attacks along these lines....

[Kahuna]

275. When Dean attempts to discuss race, you can tell that..

he's clueless. Dean talks about race in pre-Clinton dynamics instead of on the basis of what is actually the lay of the land right now. In other words, he comes across as someone whose knowledge is based upon heresay and no practical experience.

[askew]

165. Al Sharpton was a joke tonight.

His attack on Dean for not "walking the walk" on race issues, because none of Dean's six cabinet members were minorities is simply crap. He completely ignores the fact that there were senior members of Dean's staff who were minorities, while Dean was a Governor, because than Sharpton would have to admit that Dean "walked the walk". Also, Dean originally kept a lot of Gov. Snelling's personnel in place, when he took over for him to make the tranisition smoother for Vermont. So, Dean didn't appoint the cabinet members in his first administration and I am not sure if any of these members stayed on past the first administration or not. Second, Dean's policies on race are more important than who filled these 6 positions. And he has a good record on race.

[mbali]

182. This is more than about "6 positions"

This is about the fact that in 12 years - 5 terms - as governor, Howard Dean never appointed a single minority to a cabinet position. Yes, at any given time, there were 6 cabinet slots. But he made many more cabinet appointments during his tenure as governor.

Dean claims to be committed to affirmative action - and seeks to lecture others about it - but apparently didn't do much in his own career to implement it. This doesn't make him a bad person. It doesn't make him a racist. But it also indicates that maybe he's not the one to go around lecturing the rest of us about race.

[mzmolly]

211. Your right, this is about Al Sharpton needing attention, and the fact

that he doesn't care at what expense he gets it.

It's also about the fact that Al did not get the endorsements he wanted from the CBC, Dean did.

So glad Al could toss out a little dung for you all to play with this evening.

Do have fun. Meanwhile, I've got some letters to write for Howard Dean. :hi:

[Maddy McCall]

219. I'm right, but I didn't say anything about Sharpton needing attention

Enjoy writing...hope you can find a way to explain your candidate's negligence.

[Yupster]

256. You reallyt can see the Bush people

writing the tv and radio ads right now.

While the pictures of Bush and Powell, Bush and Rice, Buh and Martinez, Bush and Paige flash across the screen the print says Dean never named a single minority to any cabinet position in 12 years.

I think I'd end the ad with Bush meeting with his old pal Vicente Fox and maybe even greeting him with some West Texas Spanish.

[maxanne]

167. a small point

not being mentioned is that Dean's cabinet consisted of 6 people. Smaller than the average board of directors of a non-profit.

[imax2268]

172. seriously...

Sharpton bit the big one on that...

Dean had African American people on his staff...Sharpton is making a big deal out of six people...that's pathetic...!

[mbali]

203. No - his cabinet consisted of SIX POSITIONS, not six people

Considerably more than six people held those positions over the 12 years that Dean was governor.

Regardless, does the small number of positions mean that Dean should not have felt any desire to try to diversify his cabinet? Or is that just for other people - those white guys whom Dean wants to lecture about the joys of affirmative action?

[mzmolly]

176. "Dean Admits in 12 years Zero Blacks, Hispanics in Cabinet...of 6 people"

sounds so much less inflammatory now doesn't it??? The truth is far less interesting then opportunistic rhetoric. *sigh*

Dean had people of color on his staff which the headlines will surely omit.

I do imagine they will milk the Dean's a racist card as long as it provides ratings.

Poor Al, needs so much attention. Too bad he's getting it at the expense of those he claims to represent.

I think DU-ers know better then this. This is sad.

[Maddy McCall]

191. Cabinet means executive directorships over agencies.

Staff means everything from administrative assistants to typists.

A cabinet position requires great faith in ability, and carries much more responsibility than does a staffer postition.

The point people are making, and whatI think Sharpton was saying, is that Dean hasn't demonstrated the greatest faith in minorities by appointing one to one of the most trusted positions in state government--executive cabinet member.

[mzmolly]

204. What Sharpton is saying is *look at me*

that's what Sharpton is saying. I understand the difference between a staff and a cabinet position.

Dean had *6* cabinet members. If he had several qualified minority applicants, and refused them positions in his cabinet, this discussion might be worthy of my time.

That is clearly not the case. This is just more *shit slinging* and it's tiresome.

Way to inspire minority voters Al!!! :toast:

[ant]

186. some interesting reading

So this discussion got me interested in what Dean has said about race and I went a-googlin' - here's what I found:

http://www.blackcommentator.com/68/68_cover_dean.html

I don’t agree with everything in this article, but it’s an interesting analysis of Dean’s positions. A few people have questioned Dean’s arrogance (for lack of a better word) on this issue, and for that reason this part of the article struck me:

Howard Dean’s December 7 speech is the most important statement on race in American politics by a mainstream white politician in nearly 40 years. Nothing remotely comparable has been said by anyone who might become or who has been President of the United States since Lyndon Johnson’s June 4, 1965 affirmative action address to the graduating class at Howard University.

This suggests to me that Dean’s claim that he’s addressing this issue in a way no other white politician has isn’t totally off the wall. It makes sense to me intuitively simply because I’ve never heard another white politician address these elements of racism the way Dean does. If I’m wrong I welcome the correction.

http://www.africana.com/articles/qa/bw20031107dean.asp

People were talking about what Dean would actually do for minorities, and I think here’s a good one:

How would you address the overly burdensome — some say racist — enforcement of the drug war in communities of color?

We're going do three things. The first thing we're going to do is end the sentencing disparity between crack cocaine and powdered cocaine. That's just silly. There's no judicial basis for that. Secondly, we're going to ask that drug addicted people be considered as medical problems not judicial problems. Now, if you're shooting convenience store clerks, you're gonna go to jail — and you should. If you're dealing heroin to small children, you're gonna go to jail. But if your problem is that you're a drug addict, you're going to go to rehab, because jail is not the place for people who are ill. Thirdly, we're gonna end sentencing disparities. The penalty for murdering a white person in this country is significantly longer and tougher than the penalty for murdering a black person — and that's because of sentencing disparities at the federal level. We need to evaluate judges on a regular basis, and make sure that judges have to answer for their own sentencing behavior. I believe it's possible that many judges are unaware of what they do and they need to be called up on it. And that needs to be part of their evaluation as a federal judge.

That’s pretty fucking cool, I think. The interview overall is pretty good, addressing a variety of issues.

[BringEmOn]

187. Abenaki chief: Efforts a 'joke'

http://rutlandherald.com/hdean/74859

Abenaki chief: Efforts a 'joke'
November 20, 2003

By DAVID MACE Vermont Press Bureau

MONTPELIER - While former Vermont Gov. Howard Dean received an enthusiastic response for his remarks Wednesday before the National Congress of American Indians in Albuquerque, N.M., the leader of Vermont's Native Americans had a far different response.

April St. Francis Rushlow, chief of the Abenaki Nation of Missisquoi, questioned whether the delegates at the national gathering were aware of Dean's record of dealing with the Abenaki. "I think they need to take a look at his record in Vermont before they decide to vote for him on Native American issues," Rushlow said, calling Dean's overtures to them "a joke."

"He didn't do too much for us when he was governor for 11 years," she said. "He denied that we existed, unless it brought money into the state of Vermont."

Dean's disagreements with the Abenaki were well chronicled. He opposed state or federal recognition of the tribe, fearing they would launch land claims or attempt to open a casino if the federal government approved their status as a sovereign Indian nation.

Sounds very familiar to Native Americans familiar with Slade Gorton, the former State Attorney General, former US Senator, and notorious Indian fighter from Washington State. Thank God that sleazy POS (Gorton) was voted out in 2000. If that's how Dean deals with minority issues, he surely doesn't hold the moral high ground.

As far as not being able to find any minorities to appoint to his cabinet, he didn't seem to have any problem finding minority students to sit at his table or minority cheerleaders to sit up front at the Linn County Dinner last night.

[Maddy McCall]

194. Would like to know more about his interactions with tribal leaders.

[BringEmOn]

206. Here's another link

http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/specialnews/dean/160.htm

Thank you for your interest.

[shivaji]

214. As a minority myself, I despise nothing more than being

given an advantage based on race. Because I want to be
known as having succeeded based on my own talent and hard
work and not simply because I was the beneficiary of some
tokenism or racial quota. Inspite of a foreign accent and
being from a so called 3rd world country, I am proud to have
done very well inspite of islands of prejudice. I did it
by simply outworking the competition. And I am eternally
grateful for the opprtunity provided by this great country.

Not knowing the situation in Vermont circa Dean governorship,
and knowing that Vermont has one of the smallest non-white
population, I will reserve my judgement about Deans voracity
for racial preferences until more is known about the actual facts.
I am hoping governor Dean appointed the most competent people he
could find, and not simply because they matched his skin color.

[mikewriter]

217. It's ok Dean

I don't think Sharpton's comments will hurt Dean that much. Yes, Dean is weak in trying to attract minorities. I would like to see a poll on which candidates minorities are going to vote for. I bet Dean is in the top three and Sharpton and Mosley Braun are not.

[CalProf]

232. As a Kerry supporter

May I just say that this circular firing squad nonsense isn't helping anything?

I want Kerry to win. For the first time in my life I've given much time and energy to a political campaign to help Kerry.

At the same time I have no doubt that a Dean adminstration would be 500% better than Bush on any and all matters dealing with race in America.

There are many areas to criticize Dean on, and as a Kerry supporter I have my share of differences with him. But calling him racist, or to suggest that in a state like Vermont he should have had ten percent African American, etc, etc, in his cabinet is a great waste of energy. Dean wants, at least, to start having a national conversation about race. I've never heard him claim that he has all the answers, but I do applaud that he wants to have the conversation. We should all be on board for that, no matter who gets the nomination.

In my opinion, that is.

[Constitution]

239. Not good

Not the kind of record that will unite the party.

[tameszu]

241. Ouch

Solid body blow by Sharpton.

[Maddy McCall]

242. kick

[CWebster]

244. Sharpton is a clown

Dean appointed so many women, it was a joke in VT that white males couldn't get a job.

Give me a break.

[ecstatic]

251. He may be a clown to you

but he brought up some points that, as a black woman and current Dean supporter, I will look further into.

While I understand that VT is a mostly white state, I'm interested in learning more about whether Dean's admin. really did pass over qualified blacks.

I understand Dean's position on Affirmative Action based on class, but it does not address the fact that race discrimination is still a major problem (and many times the perpetrators aren't even aware of their bias).

[CWebster]

257. He is a clown

it ain't like Jesse Jr chose to endorse him.

[ecstatic]

261. Jesse Jackson Jr. also didn't endorse any of the other candidates

Does that make all the rest of them clowns as well? Or are you saying that Sharpton is a clown because another black man chose not to endorse him?

[w4rma]

266. Jesse Jackson Jr. endorsed Dean. (n/t)

[w4rma]

263. Replied to the wrong post. See #264, below. (n/t)

[beaconess]

265. That would be a far sight better than lily white

[w4rma]

264. So… 1 hispanic, 1 african-american, 1 asian, 1 arab, 2 caucasians?

Is that the cabinent that the Dean bashers wanted him to have? Good grief.

Just remember that this is ONLY his cabinent of 6 that we are talking about here.

For reference (Census 2000):
Ethic makeup of Vermont:
One race: 98.8%
White: 96.8%
Black or African American: 0.5%
American Indian and Alaska Native: 0.4%
Asian: 0.9%
Asian Indian: 0.1%
Chinese: 0.2%
Filipino: 0.1%
Japanese: 0.1%
Korean: 0.1%
Vietnamese: 0.2%
Other Asian: 0.1%
Native Hawaiian and Other Pacific Islander: <0.1%
Native Hawaiian: <0.1%
Guamanian or Chamorro: <0.1%
Samoan: <0.1%
Other Pacific Islander: <0.1%
Some other race: 0.2%
Two or more races: 1.2%
http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/QTTable?ds_name=DEC_2000_SF1_U&geo_id=04000US50&qr_name=DEC_2000_SF1_U_DP1

[Clark Can WIN]

277. 12 years, 5 terms, ~~~~WHITES ONLY~~~~

It must really suck having to defend a democrat on diversity issues.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

280. Interesting...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=107487

[meow mix]

281. oh, didnt realize it was over the course of 12 YEARS

thanks for pointing that out.

i think this is information people should be aware of before voting.

[Undemcided]

283. I hope he just chose the best people for the job.

n/t

[Maddy McCall]

285. kick