I am Rethinking my Support for Dean Because Dennis is just Awesome!

[seventhson]

I am watching this man rail and rant and say EXACTLY what I want Howard Dean to say in the replay of the Iowa speeches on CSpan right now.

Dennis Kucinich is EXACTLY right.

I have this Kucinich Dilemma

In my HEART I feel that Dennis Kucinich is the CONSCIENCE of our people/

He is the Conscience of American Democracy and Justice.

A man who was homeless and raised in poverty with an empahty for the poor and the weak.

His policy on Iraq, on single payer health care , on prtoecting US all from the corporations.

His BRILLIANT speech I am watching now and am simply in AWE of his command of the facts and the language and the moment. He is definitely the most intelligent and heartelt speaker.

Now do NOT get me wrong. I have a dilemma.

I CANNOT support Clark or Kerry whom I see as both deep in the trenches of the BFEE network as I see it. I MUST oppose Clark and , to a lesser extent, Kerry. To me they are far worse than many of us imagine.

So I must try to STOP them with my thoughts here on DU, my research, and my arguments. Clark is Stephens, Kerry is Skull. Both Skull and Stephens are Bush/BFEE.

But I LOVE Dennis Kucinich. He articualtes what I want articulated a THOUSAND times better than any of the other candidates.

He speaks from the heart. Bless my heart he's a VEGAN to boot ( a man of total conscience).

But what do I do in this Kucinich dilemma?

I would RATHER VOTE FOR DENNIS than for Dean.

I used to think Dennis was not that bright and he was angry and almost arrogantly so --- but I see now that he seems BRIGHTER than I ever imagined or gave him a chance to prove.

So I am RETHINKING my support for Dean in this process.

No - I still believe that Dean is the BEST candidate in the general election. I still believe that voting for him is essential to PREVENT Clark and Kerry from getting in.

But I MUST follow my conscience and vote for the man whose philosophy lies closest to my own heart and politics.

I am torn by my belief that Dennis is Best but only Dean can beat Bush and represent my interests.

So what do I do?

In order to TRY to make it fully known to Dean that he is LOSING my support because he is NOT saying the things I believ in as smartly or as passionately as Dennis Kucinich.

My primary is NOT until March 2. By then I will know whether a vote for Dennis is a safe vote or not. But in the meantime I am saying that DENNIS is my #1 choice on principal. Dean is my #1 choice as a pragmatist.

DEAN needs to listen to Dennis and his wprds of passion and justice and hope AND righteous ANGER.

I LOVE Howard in many ways. But if I was going to take one of them home from the dance it would have to be Dennis.

Dennis is a man of God (or the Goddess). Dean is a politican of the mediocre American middle class; not without vision and creativity - but NOT the best idealogically who can CHANGE the depressing crash of our democratic society.

I worry for Dean. I want Dean to win. I want him to embrace Dennis and make him a part of his administration.

But I agree with Dennis that we MUST challenge the basic tenets of the BFEE on national health care and the withdrawal of troops from Iraq and when.

Dean is second best in my opinion.

But, for now, I would urge people to FORCE Dean to the left by voting (where it is safe that it will not enable a Clark or Kerry victory) for Dennis Kucinich. This may not be anywhere but in your hearts.

But that is what is in my heart.

Shalom/Salaam Y'all and , after all, it IS about beating Bush. But it is ALSO what we are left with when we DO defeat Bush. I want a better country and a better world. And I think Dennis has the better vision for MOST of that change. Dean is almost there. But Dennis is better.

[cosmicdot]

1. com'on in, the water is fine

:bounce:

[Colin Ex]

2. Just a reminder -

Primaries are here so people like us don't have to take it on the chin from our own party.

Vote your conscience -- this is the primary.

-C

[MuseRider]

3. Man, it was easy

for me to switch and it sounds like you really have. I guess you have enough time before you must make up your mind to wrestle with this a little more. Good luck, just keep reading, donate a little if you can and watch how things are going. I think this is going to be an interesting ride. Welcome, I agree, Dennis is better.

[IndianaGreen]

4. We may not be able to get Kucinich on the ballot

Dean is well on his way to being on the Indiana Democratic primary ballot, the first candidate to be able to do so. The Kucinich supporters are independents, many of whom have never voted before. They are getting a quick lesson in how screwed up Indiana election laws are, and on the need to reform them. The laws are written to prevent an outside challenger from gathering enough signatures, particularly in mostly rural counties. The GOP and the Democratic establishment wanted the rules to favor their choices for the nomination.

The last time Indiana was a factor during a Presidential primary season was way back in 1968 when the race was contested all the way to the June California primary. We may find ourselves in a similar situation this year if no clear frontrunner (in terms of delegates) is apparent by the time we get to May.

[MuseRider]

5. ???? That sounds very odd.

What is the process that makes it so difficult? Why would the Democratic party there not want every one of the candidates to be available to the people (OK I know that is naive)? Possibly I am not understanding this correctly. Any way to help you out?

[diamondsoul]

9. Pure petition drives.

As the State coordinator, I have two basic dilemmas-

One widely scattered volunteers (some who aren't really motivated to active support), and two a few districts that are powerfully Republican controlled.

He WILL be on the Indiana Ballot, though, if I have to gather a group and drive around the State myself to get him there.

[Indiana_Dem]

12. This Hoosier will sign the petition!

Just let me know when and how!

[diamondsoul]

16. Anyone can gather signatures

to get him on the ballot. I've got the PDF file for the blank forms if you want to assist, pm or e-mail me and I'll send you the file. You can make yours the first signature you get.

[IndianaGreen]

24. Here is the URL for the Indiana ballot petition and important info...

The URL is:

http://www.in.gov/sos/elections/pdfs/CAN4.pdf

The important info is that you must put the correct name for the candidate in the block that says "Candidate Name." In Indiana, that name is Dennis J. Kucinich. Do not use "Joseph"!

On edit:

Don't forget to put "Ohio" in the block named "State where candidate resides". It may seem inconsequential, but Indiana is notorious for rejecting ballot petitions for the flimsiest of reasons.

[Indiana_Dem]

27. Thanks for the link! n/t

[IndianaGreen]

37. Sorry, I sent you the wrong link

Here is the correct one (CAN-8)

http://www.in.gov/sos/elections/pdfs/CAN8.pdf

[diamondsoul]

30. Um, I hope nobody has used "Joseph"!

Dennis' middle name is John! LOL

[IndianaGreen]

32. Well, in Indiana one has to use the middle initial "J"

otherwise there is a chance that a county clerk may reject the petition.

One problem I had experienced in years past is that my signature has evolved over the years. The scribble I use now doesn't look at all like the signature in my voter's registration records.

[IndianaGreen]

13. We need 600 signatures per county--many of which are rural

and sparsely populated. We also have a very tight deadline, the signatures have to be turned in to the appropriate county clerks NLT noon on February 9.

It is hard enough to get that many signatures in an urban county like Marion (metro Indianapolis), it is a lot harder to do so in the outlaying and more rural counties.

I am meeting with a political club in Southern Indiana (not Bloomington) and I will be taking with me blank ballot petitions for them to circulate). Compared to how well the Dean supporters have organized, the Kucinich people are way behind the curve, but is not for lack of enthusiasm, but because they are not familiar with the mechanics of the process. They are mostly peace and human rights activists that have not been involved in partisan politics before.

The support of these activists will not transfer automatically to the Democratic nominee, particularly if the Dems nominate a prowar candidate.

FYI:

BILL NUMBER: HB 1165

Dec 28, 2002

Summary of Legislation: The bill reduces the number of signatures of registered voters required by a political party or an independent candidate to gain ballot access for all federal, state, and local offices and for local offices in a single political subdivision, and allows a political party obtaining ballot access by these methods to nominate its candidates by a state or local convention. The bill provides certain filing, certification, and withdrawal deadlines for petitions of nomination and candidates nominated by a state convention. The bill allows a party whose candidate obtains at least 0.5% of the total vote cast for federal or state office to remain on the ballot for all federal, state, and local offices until none of the party's candidates for federal or state office meet that requirement in two consecutive elections. The bill provides for certain deadlines for filling state convention candidate and early candidate vacancies.

[Indiana_Dem]

18. Can I put an announcement in the local paper

for people who are interested in signing the petition and where to direct them?

[diamondsoul]

19. Um-

this is not the information I've gotten from the State Elections Board. Minimum 500 signatures per Congressional District (there are 9), not County.

[Indiana_Dem]

21. I'm fairly new to this board and I've never PM'd before

so where and how do I do that? I don't see it anywhere. I always forget my district but I think I'm in the 2nd district with Chocola as my congressman :thumbsdown:

[IndianaGreen]

23. Chocola is your Congressman? Poor baby!

I have friends in Gary, steelworkers. It is sad how the industrial base of this country has been pissed away.

You should be able to see a PM icon next to my screen name. I don't know how many posts one needs to PM, it couldn't be that many.

[Indiana_Dem]

26. Oh duh! I looked everywhere but there!

Yes I am a poor baby--I'm a nurse and he's voted against every favorable position for nurses on every bill. I posted his voting record for nurses in my conference room at the hospital. Hope they notice.

[diamondsoul]

28. Up at the top of my posts-

there should be a series of icons next to my screen-name. The first one that looks like paper, an envelope and a pencil is the e-mail button, and the one next to it that just looks like a little note is the pm button. Either one will reach me pretty well right away.

[Indiana_Dem]

8. I know what you are saying because I'm a Hoosier

Our primary isn't until May.

I've always voted Democrat except for 1988 when I wrote Nader on the ballot. I totally perplexed my precinct officials when I mentioned I wanted to write somebody in!! I think I was the only one in town who did this. lol (However, let me emphasize I'll NEVER vote 3rd party again because it didn't work)

[diamondsoul]

11. IG, did you sign up to volunteer in Indiana?

If so, e-mail me and tell me what you need. I've got a lot of things in the works right now that should boost our signature counts. Our two biggest problem districts are 1 and 9 but I think I can get those moving along pretty well too, with enough volunteers.

[IndianaGreen]

20. I am a newbie Kucinich supporter (the Ted Koppel thing did it)

I am relaying what happened at our Meetup this past Thursday, and the problems that the group said they were having. I took some blank ballot petitions because I am traveling to Franklin in Southern Indiana to meet with a progressive group that I am very active with, and they can get signatures down there.

One of our Meetup leaders said that we needed more people outside of Marion County. She also said that she didn't have the Indiana mailing list or "the NEW site address."

I have her e-mail address, and I will be happy to pass on whatever information that would help us.

[diamondsoul]

25. There is a new site

being set up now, so I wonder if that was the woman I spoke with last night. She and the webmaster, who took the initiative himself to set up a page and offer his services after I explained the position I was in, should be getting back to me to coordinate the content in the next day or so.

The information I have, both from National's Ballot Access Coordinator and from the State Elections Board is that we need 500 signatures from each of the 9 Congressional districts for a total of 4500- but that's the bare minimum. We'd rather have closer to 8-9000 to make up for any that don't qualify for certification.

One of my problems is that anyone who hasn't either contacted me directly from the Indiana page at kucinich.us or signed up to volunteer through kucinich.us is probably not among my contacts yet.

[salin]

52. Do you have the contact for the folks

from the Bloomington group? If not - let me know I just saw one of the key folks last weekend.

[diamondsoul]

57. I should have all of them, if

I'm not mistaken. They were one of the first decently organized groups in the State except I think some of them got fed up with the original State coordinator not responding to thei e-mails and calls.

[salin]

58. Cool

and can I pass on this perception - I won't say it is from the state coordinator (as that identifies you) - but from someone working with the state wide campaign. I worked with the key person on other issues and she works tirelessly - and often her work is taken forgranted. Hearing that kind of feedback as the overall impression - would probably bring a big smile.

[pasadenaboy]

6. As a Dean supporter I would say

if that is how you feel, you should vote for Kucinich and support him. Just don't get into all the anti-Dean hysteria you see on a lot of the boards here.

I think Dean will most likely be the nominee, and if that turns out to be the case, then you should support him. But until that point, if you like Dennis better as a candidate, he is the one you should support.

[Nadienne]

81. Ditto that (n/t)

[Indiana_Dem]

7. I'm still undecided

but I feel the same way about Kucinich.

[shance]

10. Its a tough call. For me it boils down to this.

Dennis Kucinich, along with all the other candidates but Howard Dean and John Kerry, voted FOR government matching funds - and in my opinion, from looking at history on Gores campaign and the amount of money Bush is raising, this will be the kiss of death for all other Democratic candidates.

There is simply no way I can see that they will sustain the money to keep campaigning through the general and even compete with Bush's money chest. That has been one of the defining factors for me.

Ideology is what drives you and me (Im assuming**). Money is what is driving these elections. Money will be a defining factor in who wins because it dictates the exposure, amount of advertising and outreach the candidates will be able to achieve with Americans.

Now, of course, assuming that electronic voting doesnt fraudently elect our president, the money is going to be the issue.**

Why the other candidates opted for matching funds, especially Clark, baffles me, especially because Al Gore was stuck in Washington D.C. the last 30 days (the most pivotal) days of his election, because he had tapped out, which rendered him pretty powerless.

Other than candidates not believing they could raise enough money, or thinking matching funds was the appropriate thing to do, I have no idea why their advisors didnt reveal to them the realities and severe limitations matching funds bring to candidates, especially going up against the money funding Bush.

My two cents.

[ThirdWheelLegend]

34. Incorrect, you CANNOT compete with Bush money

This is a big distraction, if money means so much to winning then forget it, because Bush has a crapload more.

This theory about needing money needs to be thrown out the window.

TWL

[no name no slogan]

41. Also, don't forget about 2000...

Al Gore spent $60 MILLION less than the Shrub, and he STILL WON!

The Republicans have about all the support they can buy-- the 2000 race proved it. They have nowhere to go but DOWN. By playing their money game, we just play into their hands.

People need to get away from the money, and focus on the ISSUES. Which Democrat will work better with congress to pass a liberal or progressive agenda? Which one will work hardest to protect our jobs, and get us universal healthcare? Which one will work to stop corporations from controlling this country?

Money is nice, but Democrats have never outspent Repubs on these things. Democrats win on the ISSUES-- Repubs win by buying support.

[w13rd0]

14. At the banquet last night...

...Dean went right up to a Kucinich supporter and said, "I'd like to be your second choice." He knows that some will prefer the particular bent of the Kucinich campaign, but he wants those same persons to know that although he might not be "over there", he's willing to listen, and I believe Dean thinks Kucinich certainly "adds value" to the Democratic process. If you are in a late primary state, and you like Kucinich, boost him and sing his praises. There's plenty there to praise for someone who shares his views.

He's very much the "pro-Peace" candidate, rather than just being "anti-war". DK is also very adamant about single-payer coverage. I'm not in the same boat as you because I have my own issues with DK, namely his view of executive orders/powers, but that doesn't prevent me from recognizing how and why he'd appeal to a segment of the population.

Yeah, I'm as clear as mud... ;)

If Kucinich "has your heart", go with that, being mindful of the realities and potential impact on the eventual outcome. Hopefully the end result will be Bush out of the White House, and a better future for us all.

[demothinker]

15. Many aren't addressing the poster's dilemma

The underlying question is "do I vote for someone that I think is best but I think can't win, or do I vote for someone that I think is acceptable and can?". That is the essential dilemma of the primaries.

Kucinich can't win. I have nothing against him, I think he'd make a very good president. But he's too far left to pull in enough of the center to win the general election, because he's got too much history as a liberal to present as a moderate. Why do you think the right is trying to present Dean as a liberal? To reduce his electibility to the moderates. The right has the same problem. Hence the political strategy of "run to the extreme for the primary and the center for the general election".

Dean may be able to appeal to enough of the center to win. Clark definitely can. Which would make the better president? I have my preference, but that's an individual decision.

No one has the answer for your dilemma. But my thought has always been that you have to present change gradually. Do many of us think the farther left agenda is the best for America? Sure. Can we get there in one election? Absolutely not. We need to nudge the electorate to the left. Then eventually we may be able to get a Kucinich elected. But that time isn't now.

On edit: The original subject was "No one is addressing the poster's dilemma", but some did while I was typing my response. :)

[stickdog]

17. I basically agree, and I've been working for Dean for a year now.

My little brother is working for DK, and we both like to think that we're working together.

I understand my brother's reasons implicitly, but I'm working my ass off so he'll have somebody to work for after the primaries are over.

[TLM]

22. I know where you're coming from. I like DK as well.

The abortion thing however is a problem for me. Also a problem for me is DK's desire to immediately repeal NAFTA and WTO without even trying to reform these policies.

NAFTA may have cost us a lot of jobs in manufacturing and hurt some agro jobs as well, but it has also helped create 20 million new jobs in other sectors. My job is dependent on NAFTA. The company i work for exports a lot of stuff to Canada and Mexico. If NAFTA goes away, our sales... sales that pay for my employment... go right down the crapper.

DK is right on a lot of issues, he is as you point out, our conscience. But the fact of the matter is, in politics, conscience alone isn't enough. DK is an extremist. Like it or not he is far far left, so far left he makes even moderate democrats uncomfortable.

We can't win the election with DK. The voters are not going to do a flip flop from extreme right to extreme left. They will however bail on the right and move more toward the center for a more balanced approach.

If I were to vote for the most liberal guy who is farthest to the left, it would be Kucinich. However I'm voting for the guy most likely to both win the general election AND who will have the best chance at getting his agenda enacted and making progress on these issues.

One thing that really struck me in Kucinich's speech yesterday was the comment he made, which was a shot at Dean's pragmatic outlook, saying that we shouldn't worry about what we can get passed. I'm sorry DK, but that's why you won;t get my vote... because that is exactly what a president should worry about. All the idealogical talk in the world means nothing if you can't get it passed. If you can not get it passed, you wind up with 4 years of idealogical arguments, failed legislation attempts, and no progress on these issues.

I do not want 4 more years of talk with no progress. I want a president who will focus on what he can get passed and who will figure out a way to make progress on these issues like that.

I do not want perfection, I want progress.

[seventhson]

31. I am an idealist and NO ONE is perfect.

But I am also a realist.

I was just so moved by Dennis' passion. I also live with a boatload of females (wife, daughter, sister-in-law) who are HUGE Dennis fans and make me feel guilty every day.

My nine year old likes Sharpton.

My point is that I WANT Dean to listen to Dennis: to embrace Dennis' passion and conviction that we CAN bring the troops home promptly (immediately if not sooner) and that we CAN have a national single payer not-for-profit health plan that is fair and workable and which CAN win the support of the American people and the Congress.

I have been a STRONG supporter of Dean since Gore dropped out for real and I have also been a fan of Dennis.

But NOW I want to see Dean say the things I want to hear.

I know that Dean must be a pragmatist and so must I. But Dennis' position is that PRACTCALLY these things CAN be done and that DEAN should support these things.

I want US to push Dean to that place where it can be done. And where he will SAY it can be done. For him to say it cannot be done is like Dean saying that we can't keep tax cuts for the working poor. He should say that he will try to find a way to make it work and AGREE with Dennis.

I don't CARE if he KNOWS it will be difficult to pass. I WANT him to say it CAN be done if we have the will to do it and the American people support it!

I want Dean to believe what Dennis believes is right and just and fair and smart and best for America.

By his FAILURE to do and say that he begins to make me question my previous unqueationed support.

In a tight race I will vote for Dean. But if he is way ahead my vote is going to Dennis. If it is too close to call I will face my dilemma head on and probably do what the women in my life want me to do.

[stickdog]

45. Dean is right on healthcare, AFAIAC. Universal single payer even went down

in flames as a California proposition -- much to my chagrin.

The time has come to stop talking about healthcare reform and actually do something.

We'll get singlepayer only after people realize that socialized medicine isn't so bad and that their tax dollars don't have to go directly into insurance executives pockets. It will require a stepwise approach because the word "socialism" is such an American bogeyman.

[seventhson]

47. I undersatnd that Dean is pragmatically right

But I also wish that he would say he supports it. I realize this might hurt him and also realize he and Dennis are NOT that far apart on the outcomes of either Iraq or health care.

I UNDERSTAND, I jusat admire the conviction of DK who says what I feel is necessary to be said.

Ultimately what I want is for DEAN, who I believe will WIN in 2004, to start seeing that Dennis is righter than he is on this issue so that when 2004 comes he is on tracxk to give us universal health care like every otrher civilized nation on earth. Without it we are becoming a third word impoverished wreck of a Nation and as a people. We may have star wars but we also have those dying in the streets with no medical care or treatment.

[stickdog]

53. I agree. I am working within the Dean campaign for just these issues.

I have my own problems with Dean (mostly the Iraq occupation pull out), and I'm working to get my views heard.

[Cheswick2.0]

29. Opinion from someone who does not like DK

His votes on certain issues is very liberal. But he only has a 40% rating with ACLU, he voted for PBA, he voted for allowing children as young as 13 to be tried as adults, he voted for the anti-flag burning legislation.

You can love him all you want, his liberal credentials are not solid. It really depends on what issues are important to you. I know he talks a good game on all the hot button talking points, but examine his record and then decide.

Support him, but don't try to sell him as the ultimate liberal. Thre are many members of congress more liberal than he is.

[seventhson]

33. What's PBA?

Thanks Ches...

I also was upset when I heard him dis the 9-11 lihop theories as a stretch.

Even Dean seemed a little more open to the idea of lihop (until he realized he was treading on dangerous turf.

Liker RFK said in 1968, ONLY the president could get to the bottom of his brother's death - and he was staying mum about it.

In my view if Dean ius elected he might just let the truth about 9-11 and lihop come out.

If he is not neutralized by the BFEE first.

[diamondsoul]

38. *sigh* PBA= Partial Birth Abortion

and he has voted for legislation to ban it in the past, but voted against it in the most recent call, which wound up passing anyway.

The LIHOP theory, he's not prepared to suggest something that serious without an investigation and some serious evidence to back it up. He apparently hasn't seen any.

Furthermore I strongly believe his reluctance to validate that theory falls in line with hsi refusal to support impeachment and his reasons for it. I don't have confirmation but I've looked at the succession list if Bush were impeached. No thanks! Leave Bush right where he is so we can vote the whole cabal out at once, THEN investigate and charge accordingly. Under NO circumstances do I EVER want Dick Cheney to be President!!!

[Zomby Woof]

40. it's "partial birth abortion"

He voted AGAINST the ban when it came up in the House very recently, showing he has stood by his commitment to vote only pro-choice from here on out. It does us no service to cite his old voting record.

I disagree with the flag burning vote, but Dean supporters have far more compromises to make with their liberalism than a DK supporter does on 99% of everything else. Ideological purity is impossible, even when a man has as many principles as DK.

That is why I do not trust Dean - he has none. He reeks of expedience and opportunism. Go woth your heart and support DK, and drop Dean.

I have always disagreed with you about Kerry being BFEE, but note that Dean's family and Bush's family have ties too - including the family matriarchs being the maid-of-honor at each other's weddings. That doesn't concern me as much as Kerry's frat ties concern you, but it shows they are of the same class and background. Dean has the same blueblood background as the Bushes, and his politics are a lot closer to the Bushes than most people are aware.

Dean: don't believe the hype.

Vote for DK in the primary and your conscience will thank you in the morning.

[diamondsoul]

36. Twist and turn.

"His votes on certain issues is very liberal. But he only has a 40% rating with ACLU,"

Directly related to his previous PL position which has changed considerably.

"he voted for PBA,"

Not on the most recent legislation which passed!

"he voted for allowing children as young as 13 to be tried as adults,"

Under VERY specific guidelines, thank you. Not enough information to determine that as being a vote that isn't "liberal". You make a blanket statement and completely leave out pertinent details.

"he voted for the anti-flag burning legislation."

And his most recent statements strongly suggest he's reconsidering that position. Once more, which do you want, a guy who says whatever the polls tell him to say or the guy who considers his positions based on relevant input from the public and adjusts according to common sense?

[ThirdWheelLegend]

42. Don't let facts get in the way.

You consistantly post this OPINION.

Also this is misleading, DENNIS VOTED AGAINST the most recent PBA ban bill! He also passionately spoke agaisnt it on yhe floor of the house.


Dennis is the MOST liberal on social issues. He has a stronger stance on gay marriage than Dean, He has a stonger stance on choice than Dean(Dennis will only appoint SCOTUS nominees that agree to uphold RvW), He has a stonger UHC stance. He is against the death penalty, Dean is for it.

But I guess if you are a one-issue voter, and that issue is flag-burning...then screw that rightwing Dennis! lol

TWL

[no name no slogan]

43. So? The non-partisan ACLU defends Nazis, too...

I'm a card-carrying member of the ACLU, and although I don't like white supremicist trash, I still support them because I agree that everyone in this country is entitled to the same rights.

Not every DK supporter agrees with him on every issue. I don't agree with him on his flag-burning votes, or on his past support of the DOMA.

However, I agree with him on many many more issues than I disagree with him. He is also the only candidate who's talking about the bloated military budget, and how reckless Pentagon spending to "fight terrorism" will bankrupt this country. He's also the only one who has a solid plan to get us out of Iraq, a quagmire which is turning into another Vietnam as we speak.

And frankly, I don't really care if he's the ultimate liberal or not. All I know is that he's not afraid to talk about the REAL issues that most of the others are ignoring. He's not afraid to march in a protest against the war, or the WTO, either. He's not afraid to take on corrupt businesses like CEI and Diebold face-to-face. He's not afraid of "offending" his "corporate" friends (if he has any), because he's more concerned about the rights of people than of companies.

Sure, DK is not the most liberal member of congress, but he's right on the issues that are most important to me (and many thousands of others, too).

[hippywife]

49. Get your facts straight...

He did not vote for PBA (Partial Birth Abortion Ban):
http://vote-smart.org/issue_keyvote_detail.php?vote_id=3326&can_id=BC032003

He hasn't voted against abortions for almost 3 years now---since 2001, long before he decided to run for president. (Recall that it was his Prayer for America speech in February 2002 that prompted people to draft him to run, otherwise he wouldn't be on the ballot.)

He also voted NO on the bill to increase penalties for juveniles:
http://vote-smart.org/issue_keyvote_detail.php?vote_id=2368&can_id=BC032003

I will give you the flag burning amendment vote but that is just another of his convictions. He is saddened and tired by the neocons and the rabid right co-opting our national symbol in their imperialistic, kicking-little-brown-butt-around-the-world agenda. To him it stands for our unity and our pride in what this nation once stood for. I can definitely stand with him on this since I get so angry when I see all the flags go up on cars and pickups as soon as we set to trouncing another country, either literally or philosophically.

I'm going to respond to some other of the above posts here, as well:

Kucinich is not too far left either when you look at the issues he strongly champions. What is too left about healthcare, jobs programs, a living wage, helping the family farmer?

And, Shance...Dean and Kerry both started out on the government matching fund program until they withdrew just a few months ago. When Dean started, he said he would make an issue of any candidate that pulled out of that system, yet he was the FIRST to do so.

I understand that there is alot of money involved but who among us wouldn't like to see a really solid candidate who expresses our ideals win with alot less money than the Bush Administration? Now that would really shake up the political party hacks on both sides!!

[ThirdWheelLegend]

77. "yet he was the FIRST to do so"

The common defense is that he left it up to his supporters. Doesn't hold water. If he truly had any conviction on the issue then he would NOT have allowed his supporters to decide. He obviously wanted to opt out.


TWL

[Zomby Woof]

35. Go with DK

You will sleep better at night, and feel better all day. Trust me. :-)

[Indiana_Dem]

39. seventhson I apologize for taking this post away from your topic

I hope you'll forgive me. I won't post anymore Indiana talk on this post!

[seventhson]

46. no probs

anything to help Dennis

[Cassandra]

44. I was watching the replay, too

Both Kucinich and Dean gave wonderful speeches. I like Dean's combination of hope, confidence and attack against Bush. I like that Kucinich uses his time to articulate his message and rarely bothers to attack other Democrats. He simply points out the positive things that he's done. Very refreshing. Dean brought up O'Neill and Powell in his speech. He used my favorite phrase "borrow-and-spend Republicans", and spoke about this country as a community; both things I was wishing someone would say. YAY to both of them! We have a lot of talent in this party; the other candidates included (I'm feeling magnanimous today).

[no name no slogan]

48. This campaign reminds me so much of Wellstone in 1990

I was on the ground working for Paul in the 1990 precinct caucuses-- I organized two precincts for the campaign. And this campaign feels a lot like 1990, in more ways than one.

The supporters are very similar. The campaign has the same grassroots feel. Although everybody wishes we had more money, it doesn't seem to be an object-- somehow, everything gets paid for, and every task that needs a volunteer finds one. Our campaign meetings are open, and there's lots of participation from everyone.

And lastly, there's not one paid professional in our state. EVERYTHING is run by part-time and full-time volunteers. I've worked on a number of campaigns before, but this one has the most "non-political" feel to it-- mainly because DK supporters are not just choosing the candidate who's "good enough" for them, but are choosing a candidate they really, truly believe will be a REAL change from politics as usual.

Whatever your decision is, we could certainly use the help! And don't be suprised at the results in Iowa-- I think DK will suprise A LOT of people.

:D

[seventhson]

50. How many Dean supporters feel as I do? I am curious...

I just wonder how many in the Dean camp REALLY wish he was closer to Dennis Kucinich on the issues.

I WANT Dean to pull to the left when he is elected and we NEED to have a loud voice to pull him that way.

[no name no slogan]

51. I have a feeling you're not alone....

I was in a similar position in 1988, when I worked for Dukakis because he was the "pragmatic" choice, and was "electable" and "appealed to moderates". However, I thought Jesse Jackson had the better platform.

I was a delegate to my state convention. I even worked with other Jackson delegates to get more liberals endorsed for other statewide races, over the moderates who looked to be the shoe-ins.

I too hoped Dukakis would "turn left" in the general election, and not disassociate himself from the strong grassroots following and new Democratic voters that Jackson and the Rainbow Coalition brought to our table. Unfortunately, Dukakis did his damnedest to distance himself from the "liberals" in the party, while Bush Sr. attacked him as "too liberal".

In other words, it was the worst of both worlds: a moderate who is painted as a liberal by the press and his opponent, who won't stand up for liberal positions because he's not a real liberal. Does this sound familiar?

If Dean follows the conventional wisdom, he'll continue to aim for the center, which IMHO is where he's most comfortable. No offense, but I seriously doubt he'll try to act/campaign as a liberal, considering he's already become more moderate in his rhetoric already. Although I would really like to be proven wrong this year.
:D

[mike_c]

54. Howard Dean is my fall-back candidate...

...but DK is head and shoulders above the field. Even if he doesn't get the nomination, his presence and persistent hammering of the issues keeps the real issues alive in the primaries-- I hope he goes all the way to the convention (I hope he gets the nomination!).

[Zinnola]

60. As a Dean supporter

I think Kucinich is WAY... to idealistic for me. Bushco made a mess in Iraq and we cannot magically pull out of there, or get International forces in Iraq as quick as some may think. I also agree that we cannot stop NAFTA and WTO but work to make them better. Every time I watch Kucinich present I always think, sounds good in theory Dennis but practically you will be working with Congress.

That is the main reason I support Dean, he prefaces comments with "this is what I can get passed in Congress". He does not promise the moon and the sun.

[no name no slogan]

63. But you forget...

Every time I watch Kucinich present I always think, sounds good in theory Dennis but practically you will be working with Congress

You're making a couple faulty assumptions here.

First, DK will get along fine with congress. He's been a member since 1996, and is the chair of the Progressive Caucus, the largest Democratic caucus in the House. He's also the ranking member of the subcommittee that oversees Pentagon expenditures. Even his Republican colleages find him easy to work with and very pleasant on a personal basis, even if they don't always agree with him.

Second, you're assuming that the Dems won't make a sizable dent in the Repub majorities in the House and Senate. With a strong presidential candidate at the top of the ticket, we will easily win back more seats and very possibly become the majority party in both houses again.

Also, what makes you think that the things Dean has proposed could get passed by congress? His healthcare plan is very similar to the one Clinton tried to pass in 1993. Clinton's plan failed, and he had a Democratic majority in both houses! What makes you think Dean's plan would fare any different against a more hostile congress?

As far as NAFTA, it's been around for ten years, and they've already "tampered" with it a number of times. What makes you think that continued "tampering" will make it any better for American workers? As my father-in-law the farmer says, you can put lipstick on a pig, but in the end, it'll still be a pig.

Also, the rules of the WTO prevent it from being tampered with. It's an all or nothing shot-- you're either adhering to the WTO agreement, or your not. If we want to change it, we can leave it. After all, we have the world's largest economy, one that everybody wants to trade with. Do you think that would change if we decided to leave the WTO?

Compromising after a long fight is a good way to settle things. But why should we compromise now, before the battle against the Repubs has even begun?

:shrug:
Compromising is a good thing, but why should you compromise

[mzmolly]

55. I think Dennis is not realistic about Iraq, health care, the world in

general. I also think DK is a bit hollier than thou, and his record does not match his progressive rhetoric, but some think that about Dean also?

I thought Deans speech was MUCH more powerful, realistic, substantive. Just my opinion folks. Carry on.

[morgan2]

56. a very good stradegy

I wish more people who like Kucinich the best would at least say they support him in polls, even if they plan on voting for someone else for pragmatic reasons. If everyone has already switched their vote for pragmatism we will never know what we could get done and whether you actually had to change ones vote.

[goodhue]

59. Dennis is awesome

And supporting him in the primaries is the best way to show it!

[thebigthink]

62. Gotta Love Him!

Bless his heart. I do love Denny when he gets all fired up. He was definitely in the zone last night on C-SPAN. You really have to admire his passion and principles.

[hippywife]

61. The primary is an opportunity to FORWARD YOUR VALUES.

In the GENERAL ELECTION you may have to vote for Anybody But Bush and even hold your nose.

But the PRIMARY is an opportunity to vote your heart, your values, your conscience.

And if he gets the nomination, DK CAN beat Bush!! :)

[Desertrose]

64. it seems pretty simple for those who love Dennis BUT...

want Dean to embrace DK or be like DK...

then simply vote for DK.

Its the primaries...when do you get a better chance to choose "change"?? When do we ever get to decide who we want to vote for? Once these primaries are over & the convention is done...honey, we are stuck with whoever. Just for once in my life , I want to vote for someone who speaks for ME ...who has a vision and will go for it full out...not enough to think he can "get by". What do we have to lose at this point?? We need a candidate strong enough and so unlike Bush and Kucinich is really the only choice.

I will not second guess myself or regret not casting a vote for the man I think is the hands down best option we have as a country that is fast losing freedoms, integrity and a sense of pride in who we are.


I am glad you are rethinking Dennis...go with your heart...Dennis is the one we need...if he gets the nom he will whoop bushies arse!

Peace
DR

[corporatewhore]

65. Primaries are the time to vote your heart and move DNC to the left

[Turkw]

66. I like DK, and I am a Clark supporter, I supported DK when the media tried

to marginalize his campaign. He was, and is, a legitimate candidate for the office of President. What the media has tried to do to his campaign is terrible, much worse that what it has done to any of the other candidates, in my opinion.

I didn't care for you attacks on Clark and Kerry, but what ever, a lot of Clark's and Kucinich's positions are very similar. The point is ABB, and Clark, Kerry, Dean, Kucinich, Gephart, Edwards, etc. are All acceptable, and much better than that joke we have in the White house now.

[Printer70]

67. Kucinich = Nader = spoiler

You could vote Kucinich but he won't win and doing so allows a non-progressive like Clark to run away with the race. Dean may not be a purist, but he's a progressive and stands the best chance and strongest contrast to Bush.

[corporatewhore]

68. Dean aint a progressive, Vote your fears not your heart Dean '04

Kerry has a more proggressive record than dean more environmentally friendly less friendly to corporations and nra imho but still why are you trying to scare some one Vote Your Fears-Dean'04

[Printer70]

70. Repealing the Bush tax cut isn't progressive

Reinstating Clinton's progressive tax code? Kerry's not in favor of that. Healthcare for all isn't progressive? Kerry's not going to do that either. I'm not saying vote your fears- I'm saying, we have to win before we can govern. Kooch can't win.

[no name no slogan]

74. Kucinich beats Republican incumbents-- Dean doesn't

Dennis Kucinich has defeated a Republican incumbent for at least the last three positions he's run for (US House, Ohio Senate, Cleveland Mayor).

Dean has never, I repeat, NEVER, beat an incumbent Republican in ANY of his elections.

So please, let's drop the "electability" meme, because it's tired and played out. ANY of our nine can beat ONE of their Shrub with her/his mouth taped shut. Do you honestly think that, after four years of solid mismanagement and neglect, that Shrub could muster the same number of votes he got last time?

Regarding healthcare: Yes, "healthcare for all" is indeed progressive. However, Dean IS NOT PROPOSING "healthcare for all". Dean has admitted that his plan will STILL leave approx. 10 MILLION uninsured Americans. He has even stated that if you're looking for healthcare reform, he's "not your guy".

Dean may talk like a progressive, but he doesn't walk like one. While I admire his candor and energy, his actual governing record leaves much to be desired from this Wellstone Democrat.

[seventhson]

73. Letting Clark get near to beating Dean is the LAST thing I can support

Especially given the info Tinoire posted about Clark's Davos trip with Powell and the oil companies planning the war strategy in January 2003 for the Stephens Group. (See my Clark/Davos thread just posted)

Clark is scary. Way More so than Kerry.


It is at the heart of my angst.

I appreciate the feedback. Glad to see there are many who feel as I do.

[LWolf]

69. Vote your heart in the primaries.

Every vote for Dennis helps move the agenda. I heard some of Dennis' talking points from other candidates tonight. They are already picking it up. That must mean that they've noticed the way Dennis and his platform resonate with voters. The more support he gets, the more we shape the party and the agenda, no matter who wins the nomination.

[windansea]

71. pardon me for being cynical

Your post appears to be an attempt to draw votes from Kerry and Clark
in non critical Dean primaries

pretty transparent but loved the CAPITALIZED words...

[Lydia Leftcoast]

72. The Minnesota caucuses are March 2

and there are a bunch of us organizing for Dennis.

There's no reason why you can't vote for him in your primary. Remember, this is about stating your personal preference.

Even if Dennis doesn't win, a strong showing by his supporters will send a message to the party honchos.

[shivaji]

75. I like Dk but he is 8th amongst the 9 candidates in my

book. Also, I am too much of a centrist to go for DK.
Dean is my 1st choice, with Edwards 2nd.

[mikewriter]

76. Me too

DK or Dean. After tonight DK scored a lot in my book. I still love Dean and feel he has a better chance at getting the nod than DK does.

[ThirdWheelLegend]

78. Primaries

:)

Do you let your heart or the polls guide you?

Go Kucinich!

TWL

[LWolf]

79. Seventhson

If you don't vote for the candidate who addresses the issues now, when will you?

If Dean isn't saying it now, don't expect it in the GE or in office.

When the GE gets here, the priority is to take down GWB. Now is the time to vote for the issues; November's vote is to defeat Bush, whether you match the candidate on the issues or not.

If we never vote for the candidate who says and does what we want to hear and see, we'll never have anyone in office to speak and work for us.

[CWebster]

80. Kucinich is essential to inform the debate

but there is way too much at stake to risk allowing any of the other anti-Dean candidates to become the nominee and guarantee the current status of the Democratic party(or worse) to continue.

It is a luxury I will not allow myself in these times. Even though Dean may be flawed, he is one tough scrapper and he is progressive enough--or real enough, if not perfect while still appealing to a broader constituency. Kucinich preaches to the choir.

[ThirdWheelLegend]

82. "too much at stake to risk allowing"

Dean to take votes away from the REAL progressive voice of the people.

That's how I view it, Dean is taking votes away from where they should be going by using misrepresentations and rhetoric.

TWL

[Constitution]

83. Good job. Wecome to the light side of the force.

The issue for me is trust and I do know have any idea where Dean stands on anything but I fear his conservative approaches in Vermont are more in line where where Dean really stands.