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Darkweaving 101: How To Recognize A Conspiracy Theory Presentation

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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-21-06 04:06 PM
Original message
Darkweaving 101: How To Recognize A Conspiracy Theory Presentation
Below, an article from an unlinkable right wing tabloid, on a subject I pray to any existing divinity is neutral enough to dis without insulting anyone:

Who really built the great pyramids of Egypt?

In school, students are taught that the pharoahs used slave labor and existing technology to build tombs for themselves.

But is there more to the story?

How could the precise measurements have been calculated? How could massive stones be cut with such precision? How could they have been quarried and moved into place?


Rule 1: Intriguing subjects make the best ground for Conspiracy Theories (CTs). If the monkey mind of a human being will look twice at it, you too can weave an conspiracy about it. Here, the subject is one of the greatest achievements of ancient humanity, the Great Pyramids.

Rule 2: CTs will first repeat a vastly simplified Official Story. Bonus points are here awarded by framing the official story as the provence of schoolchildren. This implies that adults who can "think for themselves" may have a better perspective on the subject at hand.

Rule 3: CTsk then will ask the "unanswerable questions". The questions are asked on a specialized subject that most people don't have any idea about. Here, the questions are about construction questions of ancient times. The knowledge needed to answer these questions is found in a lifetime of study and communication with like-trained scholars. (However, having framed the "official story" as the work of school teachers, the darkweaver has neutralized the authority of people best suited to answer that question! How convienent!)


Producer Ken Klein has delivered one of the most compelling documentaries on the subject, making the case that the pharaohs were not responsible for the Giza plateau pyramids. It's called "The Lost Legend of the Great Pyramid: The Pillar of Enoch."


Rule 4: Darkweavers then present the alternate theory for the consideration of the target audience (people who don't know the answers to the "unanswerable questions". In most cases of darkweaving, there is a tape or a book to buy. This is sometimes saved for the end of the presentation, yet here it is used as a confirmation that more "evidence" is available to satisfy your reinforced need to understand how the pyramids were built. You too can get this evidence, right after you pony up the cash.


"It is a matter of archaeological fact that none of the fourth dynasty kings put their names on the pyramids supposedly constructed in their times, yet all other pyramids of Egypt had hundreds of official inscriptions, leaving us no doubt about which kings built them," he says.


Rule 5: Eye-popping evasions remain the best way to amaze the target audience. Since they don't know any different, they will be impressed by such erudition on display.

However, not just any eyepopping lie will do. The lie must be

a) be technically true in its terms,
b) be twistable to imply much more than the actual truth being used says,
c) provide a "briar patch" fallback that allows the darkweaver room to escape in a cloud of thunderous logic while quietly retreating from the original point.

Yes, it's true: no inscriptions are on the pyramids, as they now stand. However, we know that the pyramids were all covered with a limestone covering (part of one still remains on the apex of a pyramid). It's possible that inscriptions could have been found on this outer layer that now has been long plundered by later builders.

Furthermore, plenty of inscriptions within the pyramidal funerary complex name the pharoah-builders.

First of all you have inscriptions that are written inside the tombs, the tombs that are located on the west side of the Great Pyramid for the officials, and the tombs that are located on the east side of the Great Pyramid for the nobles, the family of the King Khufu. And you have this lady, the daughter of Khufu. And this man was the vizier of the king. This one was the inspector of the pyramids, the chief inspector of the pyramids, the wife of the pyramid, the priest of the pyramid. You have the inscriptions and you have pottery dated to Dynasty 4. You have inscriptions that they found of someone who was the overseer of the side of the Pyramid of Khufu. And another one who was the overseer of the west side of the pyramid. You have tombs of the workmen who built the pyramids that we found, with at least 30 titles that have been found on them to connect the Great Pyramid of Khufu to Dynasty 4. You have the bakery that Mark Lehner found. And all the evidence that we excavate here.

Ah, ha! says the darkweaver. Those inscriptions aren't on the pyramids themselves! They are on the accompanying tombs! They could have been official lies. Why, anyone can grab a chisel, even Khufu's men, and put up any inscription they wanted, claiming anything they did. Raameses II put his name all over former pharoah's names, didn't he? They all did...

Of course, when the darkweaver goes here, the darkweaver explicitly negates his first statement. If it's the case that inscriptions can be trusted because they are eyewitnesses...I mean, because anybody could write what they wanted on the side of the tomb, then what difference does it make whether the pyramids were inscribed or not? Any inscription that denies the CT will be discarded as another lying hieroglypic.

Even those archaeologists who still stubbornly subscribe to the "tomb theory" of the pyramid do not believe that a queen or anyone else was ever buried in the limestone chamber.


Rule 6: The CT also will find a way to develop and expose discrepancies in the "official story". You will see creationists who point to various schools of thought within evolutionary scientists, and play diversity of opinions off as internal contradictions. Here the use of the pyramid as a tomb is questioned by evidence that no one ever laid at rest there. However, there is evidence that bodies did lie in rest there - most notably Khufu's sarcophagus, which remains in the king's chamber.

This is a real problem with CTs - the "official story". Usually, there is no official story, as here. There are some generally agreed-upon facts, and narrative flows within these facts may gain some staying power. But CTs require an official story to fight against, and darkweavers find it necessary to invent one when none exists, and will do so using the most convienent positions for the CT to "debunk." Another example here is the various stories of disappearences in the Bermuda Triangle. Without apparent exception, the "official stories" used to weave the paranormal theories surrounding that area turn out to be completely wrong about the actual events - disappearances happen invariably in bad weather, for example.

This need to establish some kind of "official story" finds itself in flummox when an "official story" actually does come out! There is rhetoric involved here, rhetoric that has been reproduced in tape, DVD, or book form. Those units are still sitting on the shelf, waiting to be bought, and if the official story isn't what the darkweaver always claimed it to be, the official story must be marginalized, or at least only quoted in ways that support the original understanding of the "official story".

Rule 7: The CT will find a way to label the "official story" with a nickname. Here, it's "tomb theory". Note the stressed use of the word "theory". This helps play up the "internal contradictions" between scholars with different opinions.

Mysterious legends and records tell of watermarks that were clearly visible on the limestone casing stones of the Great Pyramids suggesting that the Great Pyramid existed before the pharaohs during the great flood of Noah's time.


Here, an isolated fact is once again given a mysterious context. The word "mysterious" is gratuitous editorializing. Plus reference to a clearly mythical event (the flood of Noah) gives us another clue as to the type of person this ad is trying to dupe.

Although much research remains to be done in these areas, legend, archaeology, mathematics and earth sciences seem to indicate that the Great Pyramid was a monumental device for gathering knowledge and information to be revealed and decoded at a latter time for the spiritual benefit of human beings.

Are you living in that latter time?

Get "The Lost Legend of the Great Pyramid: The Pillar of Enoch."


Rule 8: More often than not, the sales pitch will be a vital part of the CT. And this particular example has been nothing but a sales pitch. It identifies and reinforces a "felt need", it isolates the reader by appealing to vanity and slamming alternate routes to satisfy the need, it promises further information and hints at resolution, and then provides the link to get the DVD.

Any questions?
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-21-06 05:52 PM
Response to Original message
1. Sounds like you are describing
the OCTers to a tee.

Thanks.

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Americus Donating Member (279 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-21-06 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Took the words right outta my mouth, DYEW! n/t

n/t
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-21-06 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. I know you are, so what am I?
Repeat ad nauseum.
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-21-06 06:24 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Why don't you just tell us?
That way we don't have to play guessing games.

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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-21-06 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. I know you are, so what am I?
Repeat ad nauseum.
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Americus Donating Member (279 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-21-06 06:37 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. "so what am I"?

An actor? Isn't that what you said you are a while back?
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-21-06 06:48 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. I know you are, so what am I?
Repeat ad nauseum.
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-21-06 06:29 PM
Response to Original message
5. all explanations of current events are conspiracy theories
the more secrecy that surrounds the event, the more conspiracy theories there will be and the more far-reaching they will be

some of these conspiracy theories become "officially" blessed--others are endlessly ridiculed by the agents of the status quo

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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-21-06 07:15 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. all explanations are not equal
some are not more equal than others, some are simply not equal to the task of explaining all the facts
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-21-06 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. I haven't heard one yet that fully explains what happened on 9-11
the official explanation is clearly a fabrication

because no rigorous investigation was done prior to the methodical destruction of the evidence and coverup of many facts, there are many gaps to fill in--mostly, the posts you ridicule on this forum are attempts to explain those holes

methodologically, one is usually wise to:

follow the money

find simple explanations, but don't dismiss complex possibilities

look for motive and opportunity

stay skeptical
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-21-06 07:56 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. what do you mean by the official explanation
where did you get it

who signed off on it
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-21-06 09:27 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. pretty much corresponds to the 9-11 Commission report
that, plus a bunch of that the media regurgitates about "terror" and 9-11 as though it was established fact.
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-22-06 12:04 AM
Response to Reply #12
17. all of the 9-11 Commission is a fabrication?
are there any factual parts? can we draw upon it for evidence in any case whatsoever?

how do we determine what we can use there?
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-22-06 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #17
21. it is utterly useless as a primary source
it omits, for purely political reasons, many logical area of inuiry.

it obviously starts with the premise that the OTC is what happened and is mainly an exercise in providing rationale (often absurdly weak) for that cover story. It is a political document, not an investigative report. That's all one could reasonably expect form a political commission. Yes, it contains some facts, some distortions, some rationalizations, some alibis, some accuracies and many inaccuracies.

Unless a "fact" is documented in additional sources, one would be foolish to trust the 9-11 Commission Report on its face.
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-22-06 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. wait a minute
it "starts" with the OCT or it is the OCT?

in your last post, you picked it starts with the OCT, so now tell me: where is the OCT?
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-22-06 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. the OCT began to emerge within hours (maybe minutes) of the events
and was widely disseminated over the next days by the American media. It was fairly completely communicated (19 martyrs, Flight 93 heroes, etc.) within the first couple of weeks. The 9-11 Commission report is merely the official "catalog."
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-22-06 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. how did it come from the government, then?
because i'm trying to understand how it becomes "Official", then.

So because of the 9/11 report being the official "catalog" it is inherently mistrustworthy?
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-22-06 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. the same way most of our "news" comes from the government
no, it is untrustworthy because by design it is full of lies, distortions and ommissions.

it also happens to be the "official" explanation.
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m0nkeyneck Donating Member (274 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-23-06 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #27
31. mistrustworthy?
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-03-06 03:12 AM
Response to Reply #31
44. LOL, he's a newspeak agent as well...
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-03-06 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #44
46. LOL, you so scored by making fun of my typo!
OMG, you really showed me.

WTF, BBQ

It's so much fun talking to adults.
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BuddyYoung Donating Member (455 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-02-06 10:44 PM
Response to Reply #10
32. An addition to your list.

It's impossible to give an explanation of something that didn't happen, and the U.S. Government will never admit 911 was inside job. That's why the only "explanation" the Government and the media CAN give is a simple, simplistic totally false cover story.

To your suggested list, I'd add:

* Study history & see if there seem to be consistent patterns and similarities in the events of 911, and other (alleged acts of terror).

It's fairly easy to concoct an argument that OBL:

* Benefitted from 911

* Had the motive, means (or access to the physical and technical resources needed), and opportunity.

Easy to CONCOT such an argument. However, even if OBL DID have the motive, means, and opporunity, he certainly wasn't the only one that did. The U.S. Government did, too. And, the historical record (in the explosion aboard the U.S.S. Maine, we know about the PLANTED DISINFORMATION in the media, courtesy of Mr. Hearst), combined with the available evidence (actual and circumstantial) and total LACK of evidence for the Government's cover story can only lead to one inevitable conclusion: 911 was an inside job, and in my opinion there's nothing to gain from hearing a Government "explanation" for what happened.

The so-called evidence released by the Government/corporate media is ALL fuzzy, vague, UNverifiable, irrelevant, and all the rest. Evidence that would provide hard-to-refute proof is being withheld from the public. For example, the NSA's satellite images would clearly show if FL77 crashed into the Pentagon. When the U.S. accused CUBA of having Russian missiles either already in place in Cuba, or ready to be off-loaded from ships, the U.S. released proof of their accusation in the form of PHOTOGRAPHS of the missiles. Why haven't they done likewise with 911?
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-03-06 03:08 AM
Response to Reply #9
42. Right, like the OCT explains all the facts.
You debunk your own OP by reducing it to "i'm right, you're wrong".
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-03-06 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #42
45. Right, like somebody isn't right and somebody isn't wrong here.
n/t
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-21-06 10:56 PM
Response to Original message
13. hrmph
You know, how to think for yourself using facts you derive from observation and the process of confirmation, and logic based on such facts, is a more useful skill than your "how to recognize" an abstract, variably defined category, which you apparently wish to characterize as some form of dangerously contagious disease.

Why don't you just take on the facts and arguments you object to directly, rather than engaging in the labeling game? Honestly, you have more brains than the average OCT fanatic, so stick to that and leave aside the irrelevancies.
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MervinFerd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-21-06 11:07 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. "Conspiracy Theorists are con artists. Or their marks."
I think that's what he is saying.
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-22-06 12:03 AM
Response to Reply #13
16. Abstract, variably defined category...
Yeah. I was just struck while surfing through that site by this article, and started writing through it on a lark. About halfway through, I moved it over here and finished it. It's arbitrary in that I came up with the "rules" as each one came up in the piece. It's not meant to be definitive. It took me about an hour to write, for God's sake! It can't be all that...

But the phenomenon I think of as "darkweaving" is very much something I like to strive against. It's not people or personalities at all that concern me. It's methodology of thought. That's my main concern here. At this point, the basic facts of the 9/11 attack are undisputable. The flights were hijacked, the planes flew into the buildings or the ground, and all those people died. The buildings collapsed as a result of the damage and the fire. If you're wandering away from these facts, something is taking you there, and that need to be fixed.

Honestly, it's a problem that can be solved. Most theorists are reasoning pretty well, based on what they see as evidence. But if you think that more than Lee Harvey Oswald was involved in a plot to kill JFK (as an example, I don't want to discuss it), then you are predisposed to seeing Bobbie's death and Martin's death as conspiracies. And as these conspiracists have never been caught, you have to believe that they are continuing their nefarious ways, and so when you come to such a global event as 9/11, and you read something like the PNAC agenda, what else are you supposed to think? I get that.

The problem is, where are you getting your information? Why does one person allow this amount of evidence into their viewpoint, and another person more or less? That's where what I call "darkweaving" comes into play. We all have the ability to find the worst case scenario, but there's a point when that kind of thinking gets out of hand. A good indicator of this is when you dispose of facts to keep your pet theory. Flight 77 denial is a pretty good indicator of darkweaving 9/11, as an example.
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petgoat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-22-06 12:29 AM
Response to Reply #16
19. The basic facts of the 9/11 attack are disputable.
The buildings collapsed as a result of the damage and the fire.

That could have been established by a criminal-type investigation of the evidence at the
crime scene. Every piece of steel was stamped with an ID number. The dissection of the
pile could have been photographed, and every piece logged as it was removed.

Instead the concept of criminal investigation was rejected, investigators were kept off
the site, photographs were prohibited, and the steel was destroyed.

Why does one person allow this amount of evidence into their viewpoint

In my own case, it was because I thought to ask "Why was there no air defense for an
hour and a half?" And "Why didn't the media report this fact?"
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mrgerbik Donating Member (652 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-14-06 04:06 AM
Response to Reply #16
59. I don't think the "facts" are indisputable

If police didn't allow themselves to see patterns in people and events, as you seem to be suggesting only "conspiracy loons" do with "darkweaving", they'd never catch serial killers or murderers.

Darkweaving seems to be just that... seeing the patterns.

I think the 9/11 thing ties into a whole assortment of "bad things" that always seem to take place at certain places, with a certain involvement of certain individuals during a certain time-frame followed by a parade of coincidences and anomalies. When looked into a little deeper thou, it shows a disturbing pattern of greed, ruthlessness and power mongering gone completely awry. It's actually quite scary sometimes.

Most of the population is creatively spent, deadened from over indulgence in entertainment, full of anxious thoughts and overly focused on money and power. A population that wouldn't want to entertain such thoughts because it may just burst the nice little bubble that they've spent years to build. This bubble (ego) sees the world in black and white: "I am not safe", "terrorists are everywhere", "brown people are evil", "I am good, they are bad", "my government WON'T lie" etc. etc It seems like bi-polar disorder on a mass scale.

The problem, in my mind, isn't when a viewpoint is too full.. its when its not full enough. When my gut tells me things are ok, THEN I'll settle down. Until then, I'll never let myself be told something unless I KNOW for sure that it is true. And 9/11 is one of those things that needs to be answered properly.
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MervinFerd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-21-06 11:05 PM
Response to Original message
14. Very Good Effort---though wasted here, I fear.
I find ridiculous satire far more effective.
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petgoat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-22-06 12:22 AM
Response to Reply #14
18. Effective at what? It's ridiculous all right. nt
Edited on Thu Jun-22-06 12:23 AM by petgoat
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-22-06 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #14
22. most readers here seem to suffer from an irony deficiency
though.
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mhatrw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-22-06 12:30 AM
Response to Original message
20. What garbage.
Conspiracies happen. This is an indisputable historical fact. However, many conspiracy theories are meritless.

Generalizations shed no light on competing claims, which much always be evaluated based on their own specific merits.
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psychopomp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-04-06 12:11 AM
Response to Reply #20
48. Yes, conspiracies happen
However, I think the poster did a very good job of showing the psychology of how many of the more far-out theories are put together and adhered to by their proponents.

Of course, 9/11 was a conspiracy, but that does not mean that there were fake planes, controlled demolitions, missiles, etc. If the ideas are credible they will stand up to criticism.
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mhatrw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-20-06 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #48
66. These kinds of generalizations are not helpful in any way.
Conspiracies are historical fact. Conspiracy theories are quite often served up as the conventional explanation -- as is the case on 9/11 which we are told was a conspiracy of 19 Arabs and OBL. So tell me, do the generalizations in the OP apply to these cases? Why or why not?

Alternative theories gain momentum among reasonable people when conventional explanations are inadequate, shrouded in secrecy and/or too convenient.
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BuddyYoung Donating Member (455 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-13-06 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #20
57. Intentional efforts to distract, disrupt & suppress truth ALSO exist. nt
nt
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-13-06 11:59 PM
Response to Reply #57
58. It seems to be your raison d'etre, Buddy
to remind us of this every minute of the blessed day.

:nopity:
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m0nkeyneck Donating Member (274 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-22-06 04:13 PM
Response to Original message
23. yawn..
if you think something is ridiculous it seems posting 24/7 to a forum that specifically deals w/ the subject would be pointless.. especially when you can’t even offer convincing explanations why you think you are correct. go outside, read a book.. reflect

thx for the laughs
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-22-06 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. you are funny
there is ridiculous benign and there is ridiculous malignant

does the cancer know what it is doing to the body? no, it grows, grows, grows, overwhelming resources, and finally kills

ridiculous though most alternate hypotheses may be, they threaten to deny resources to worthy goals and that is why i am here

i think i shall stay
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m0nkeyneck Donating Member (274 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-22-06 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #25
29. worthy goals?
attempting (unsuccessfully) to convince people that catastrophic events that kill thousands and result in endless war don't deserve adequate investigation; ridiculing those w/ questions, equateing them/us with cancer?

deplorable; even if the alternate theories were ridiculous

don't choke on the koolaid jimmy

l8r



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BuddyYoung Donating Member (455 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-14-06 09:10 AM
Response to Reply #29
63. It seems to be bolo's raison d'etre
To demonstrate that every day, all day long, and every night, all night long. Some people just don't "like" (how else to explain it? NO. don't say that. wouldn't be prudent.) a search for truth and helping others to see the light.
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mirandapriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-02-06 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #23
33. That is what I don't get.
why do they post here if it's so ridiculous?
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-02-06 11:06 PM
Response to Reply #33
35. Turn on your "get it" mechanism, miranda
I don't understand how it is that you don't get this. You have been told time and time again.

So turn on the "get it" portion of your brain. Is it on? Does it need a warmup period? Full of gas? Idling just right?

Okay, now that you are in "get it" mode, pay attention, because again I am going to repeat this to you. I hope this time, you will read the very small words that I use and can put them together to make sense.

I will continue to post here even though I think that most alternate theories are ridiculous. I will do this because there is a real danger that people will see any 9/11 dissent as questions about controlled demolition and Flight 77 denial. This is not the case - there are real questions, but they are being drowned out by these ideas, ridiculous though they are. Therefore, I will continue to post here as a counterweight to these ridiculous ideas.

As long as these ridiculous ideas are overwhelming real questions, someone need to speak against them.

Did you "get it" this time?
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petgoat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-02-06 11:19 PM
Response to Reply #35
37. What real questions of 9/11 dissent are you propounding? nt
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-02-06 11:22 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. The coverup of determined ignorance before the attacks. n/t

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BuddyYoung Donating Member (455 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-03-06 12:28 AM
Response to Reply #38
39. The literary equivalent of saying MIHOP. In other words, the truth.

No such thing as "determined ignorance" = OSAMA did it. LIHOP IS MIHOP. OBVIOUSLY, since it was an inside job, one or more perps (wittingly or otherwise) "allowed" certain things to happen in carrying-out the plot. And it's very possible that neither the "allower" nor the "allowee" knew that THEY were actually helping the perps. Comparmentalization and all that. Need to know basis.

So, in a sense, you're most likely right...about certain "ignorance" being covered up, but that's just a limited hangout position, entirely consistent with MIHOP being the truth about 911.
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petgoat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-03-06 01:07 AM
Response to Reply #38
41. A study of "determined ignorance" soon leads to
Edited on Mon Jul-03-06 01:08 AM by petgoat
subverted investigations, Osama's status as a CIA asset, the CIA's failure to
fulfil Clinton's order to kill Osama, Ali Mohammed's peculiar status as an
unindicted co-conspirator in the '93 bombings, the decision by the FBI to
allow the '93 bombing to go forward when they could have stopped it, and
the coverup of evidence of unexploded bombs in the OK City Federal Building--
which leads any serious investigator very quickly to MIHOP scnarios.

Of course, in the political world, it is more tactful to approach people
with ignorance and incompetence theories--to approach them at a level they
can relate to.
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Jazz2006 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-04-06 01:07 AM
Response to Reply #35
49. Some people have very selective "get it" mechanisms.
They only "get it" when it conforms to their previously held beliefs and somehow don't "get it" if something challenges their pre-conceived notions.

In other words, confirmation bias writ large.

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mirandapriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-14-06 04:51 AM
Response to Reply #49
60. What does that have to do with my statement
Edited on Fri Jul-14-06 04:52 AM by mirandapriestly
above? I said I don't understand why people who think the posters here are ridiculous (and we are in the majority as the polls taken on DU show) post here. How does that "challenge my preconceived notions"? Your post doesn't make any sense. You just are looking for an excuse to make a canned insult, re: "confirmation bias". Please tell me what my statement has to do with confirmation bias?
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mirandapriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-04-06 01:27 AM
Response to Reply #35
50. To which I replied:
Edited on Tue Jul-04-06 01:31 AM by mirandapriestly
why don't you care about the protests from the nobel laureate scientists that Bush is using "bad science" to promote his policies, ie: getting scientists to say things that aren't true. Why go after a few internet posters?
http://www.scientistsandengineersforchange.org/mt/archives/000026.html

Now there is someone who is really doing some harm.
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MervinFerd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-22-06 05:40 PM
Response to Original message
30. Fake Apollo landings would also make a good study.
Nobody claims the Pyramids Don't Exist.

That's what Fake Apollo and much 9/11 'Theories' do.
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mirandapriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-02-06 10:54 PM
Response to Reply #30
34. So do you post constantly in fake apollo landing forums?
If you think it is such a good analogy, then you must spend a lot of time posting in such forums trying to convince them that they are wrong.
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-02-06 11:10 PM
Response to Reply #34
36. Do fake moon landing people keep assaulting DU with their drivel?
Have they become such a problem that the administrators had to create a dungeon for them? No?

Then the fake moon landing questions don't threaten to overwhelm real questions about anything. They don't threaten to associate DU with stupid theories, thus negating its influence in reality.

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BuddyYoung Donating Member (455 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-03-06 12:41 AM
Response to Reply #36
40. "Fake moon landing people" would have a hard time breaking thru

all of the clutter here from the "no case for planes" crowd and their special interest in OCT drivel.
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mirandapriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-04-06 01:32 AM
Response to Reply #36
51. No one has to come here
and election fraud and women's rights also have there own forums; do you think that is "drivel? and that those are "dungeons"?
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mirandapriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-14-06 04:54 AM
Response to Reply #36
61. Who makes it the problem?
Edited on Fri Jul-14-06 04:55 AM by mirandapriestly
You people do. Not us. and you never post any where else on DU so you are feigning moral outrage once again.
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-03-06 03:10 AM
Response to Reply #34
43. The moon landing hoax is a RW favorite
It was promoted primarily by FOX TV.
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mirandapriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-04-06 01:33 AM
Response to Reply #43
52. A lot of these posts
sound exactly like Free Republic arguments. I'm not making any accusations, I'm just noting the similarity.
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-03-06 10:17 PM
Response to Original message
47. Who cares?
Why don't you go tackle something that matters?

Here's a suggestion for something a lot more urgent for Americans to learn:

"How to recognize when your country is run by mobsters who stop at nothing in their quest to plunder everything."
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-04-06 10:48 AM
Response to Reply #47
53. I do.
I find that helping people think more clearly on an issue matters well on down the line. In my case, discovering Lawrence David Kusche's book on the Bermuda Triangle literally changed my life. It's the gold standard in debunking, in my mind.

I think I shall remain. Thanks for the kind words.
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petgoat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-13-06 10:43 AM
Response to Reply #53
55. Why did the Bermuda Triangle need debunking?
Edited on Thu Jul-13-06 10:45 AM by petgoat
Even if someone believed in it, all they had to do was not go there.
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-13-06 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #55
56. Human ignorance always needs debunking, in my opinion.
Give me the truth, unvarnished and whole. Illusions have their place, but it's a place where they are labeled illusions, such as the theater.
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mirandapriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-14-06 05:01 AM
Response to Reply #56
62. The truth?
what a joke. You think the Bush administration and the corporate media are giving you the truth?They are the only source for the information that you believe. That is where it all comes from. I gave you a link up above about the false science that Bush&Co have been accused of. I ask you again if you are looking for truth why aren't you following up on that or any of their other lies?
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petgoat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-14-06 11:02 AM
Response to Reply #53
64. There's no zealot like a repentent sinner, I guess. nt
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-14-06 11:06 AM
Response to Reply #64
65. Tell me about your regreted sins, petgoat.
I've told you of mine.
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mogster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-13-06 09:26 AM
Response to Original message
54. Yes, I have one or two questions:
When does a conspiracy theory become a conspiracy theory and not reasonable questioning, and who decides what is facts and what is fiction?

A current example:
Some days ago, Ken Lay died. Heart attack. Some people raises questions; was his death a natural one?
CNN presents the following:

"There are several theories. The general idea is that Lay faked his death and is now living somewhere south of the border ... no doubt partying with Elvis. How could he pull off such a feat? Well, he was a one-time friend of President Bush. Even raised campaign funds for him. So either through friendship or even blackmail, then, the government helped.

Or perhaps Lay is dead ... but not from a heart attack, as the local coroner said. Maybe the CIA used one of its fancy poisons -- you know, the untraceable kind -- to keep Lay from embarrassing the President.

Or Lay used a poison himself to keep from suffering the indignity of prison. A sort of Samurai send off. After all, his whole family was with him at the end. (That Fourth of July holiday thing was just a cover).

How does the song go? "Lunatic fringe, I know you're out there ..." Conspiracy theories tend to pop up when there is dissatisfaction and disappointment."
http://money.cnn.com/2006/07/06/commentary/wastler/index.htm

Lunatic fringe ...

So, let's say somebody told that journo back in 1999 that in two years time, in 2001, Enron, WorldCom, Parmalat and many, many others were doing fake books, and that the companies would be gone by 2003. That the huge accounting firm, Arthur Andersen would disappear as a result of the scandal. That the world would be turned upside down because of terror and that the US would invade Iraq as a result - although Iraq did not have anything to do with the attacks - based on a gravy of lies so thin and transparent that only the dumbest could believe it?

That person would be the laughing stock of the establishment/MSM for exactly two years - depending on his/her stature and place in society of course. If it were just an ordinary person with ideas and spare time to ponder, he'd meet a closed ear, a chuckle or a raised eyebrow, depending on how good he was to present his 'conspiracy theory'.
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