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quickesst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-07-06 07:43 AM
Original message
Hot topic....
concerning the molten steel still present weeks after collapse.

A chunk of hot metal being removed from the North Tower rubble about eight weeks after 9/11.
In the weeks and months after 9/11, numerous individuals report seeing molten metal in the remains of the World Trade Center:
Ken Holden, who is involved with the organizing of demolition, excavation and debris removal operations at Ground Zero, later will tell the 9/11 Commission, “Underground, it was still so hot that molten metal dripped down the sides of the wall from Building 6.” <9/11 Commission, 4/1/2003>
William Langewiesche, the only journalist to have unrestricted access to Ground Zero during the cleanup operation, describes, “in the early days, the streams of molten metal that leaked from the hot cores and flowed down broken walls inside the foundation hole.”
Leslie Robertson, the structural engineer responsible for the design of the WTC, describes fires still burning and molten steel still running 21 days after the attacks.
Alison Geyh, who heads a team of scientists studying the potential health effects of 9/11, reports, “Fires are still actively burning and the smoke is very intense. In some pockets now being uncovered, they are finding molten steel.”
Ron Burger, a public health advisor who arrives at Ground Zero on September 12, says that “feeling the heat” and “seeing the molten steel” there reminds him of a volcano.
According to a member of New York Air National Guard’s 109th Air Wing, who is at Ground Zero from September 22 to October 6, “One fireman told us that there was still molten steel at the heart of the towers’ remains. Firemen sprayed water to cool the debris down but the heat remained intense enough at the surface to melt their boots.”
New York firefighters recall “heat so intense they encountered rivers of molten steel.”
As late as five months after the attacks, in February 2002, firefighter Joe O’Toole sees a steel beam being lifted from deep underground at Ground Zero, which, he says, “was dripping from the molten steel.” Steven E. Jones, a physics professor from Utah, later will claim this molten metal is “direct evidence for the use of high-temperature explosives, such as thermite,” used to deliberately bring down the WTC towers. He will say that without explosives, a falling building would have “insufficient directed energy to result in melting of large quantities of metal.” There is no mention whatsoever of the molten metal in the official reports by FEMA, NIST, or the 9/11 Commission. But Dr. Frank Gayle, who leads the steel forensics aspects of NIST’s investigation of the WTC collapses, is quoted as saying, “Your gut reaction would be the jet fuel is what made the fire so very intense, a lot of people figured that’s what melted the steel. Indeed it didn’t, the steel did not melt.” As well as the reports of molten metal, data collected by NASA in the days after 9/11 finds dozens of “hot spots” (some over 1300 degrees) at Ground Zero (see September 16-23, 2001).
People and organizations involved: Ken Holden, William Langewiesche, Leslie Robertson, Frank Gayle, Steven E. Jones, Joe O'Toole, Ron Burger

OK gubment believers, whether the steel melted, got hot and cooled to brittleness, or whatever gubment excuse you care to cling to, what is the source of these hotspots? Give me something that anyone can understand that will show the molten steel is a result of plane impact, fire, or :rofl: FRICTION. Thanks.
quickesst
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SidDithers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-07-06 08:03 AM
Response to Original message
1. Confirm it was molten steel, please...
even the sainted Dr. Jones doesn't claim it was molten steel, but you left that part out in your quote from him.

Thus, molten metal was repeatedly observed and formally reported in the rubble piles of the WTC Towers and WTC 7, metal that looked like molten steel or perhaps iron. Scientific analysis would be needed to conclusively ascertain the composition of the molten metal in detail.


Sid
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libertypirate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-07-06 09:17 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Do you know how silly you are?


You know why you are silly aluminum turns silver when it melts, and reaches its melting point, you see that metal is not silver.

And according to Dr. Jones paper, if you were being intelectually honest, a chart showing orange heated metal as being 1725 F.


"The initial jet fuel fires themselves lasted at most a few minutes" from the NIST report

Jones adds, "Certainly jet fuel burning was not enough to raise steel to sustained temperatures above 800 C"

The color of salmon...
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LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-07-06 09:40 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. Speaking of silliness
Why do you insist upon conflating the fires in the WTC with the underground fire after the collapse?

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quickesst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-07-06 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. What the ...
Funk and Wagnel are you guys talking about. Conflation schmonlation, steel, aluminum, gold, silver, tin, zinc, IT WAS STILL MOLTEN WEEKS AFTER THE COLLAPSES. HOW THE HELL IS IT STILL IN MOLTEN FORM? It's a simple question that has a simple answer. The only conflation I see in this forum is what the shills bring to the subject whenever confronted with issues they can't answer directly. Why is the "I don't care what kind of metal it is" metal still molten weeks after the collapses?
quickesst
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LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-07-06 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. This is not all that complicated
A common thing I see, is claiming the fires in the towers were not hot enough to melt steel. Most likely that is true. The problem starts when someone starts talking about the molten metal as if the fires in the trade center are somehow related to the molten material found weeks later. There is no relation between the two, other than the fires in the towers started the underground fires in the rubble.

Underground fire clearly get hot enough to melt aluminum, there is no question about that. I believe (and other challenge that idea) that the underground fires were hot enough to melt steel as well. If the underground fires are burning weeks later the molten material will still be there.

As I said it not that complicated.
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quickesst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-07-06 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. If there...
is no relation between the two, why tell me you think the fires below were started from the fires above? And you expect anyone to believe there were fires in the rubble that somehow started a fire under the rubble, and remained hot enough to run like liquid several weeks later? I'm no rocket scientist by any stretch, but I'd have to let my imagination run pretty wild to accept that scenario. If those fires were hot enough to melt metal for several weeks, they had to have had some help. I believe that help came in the form of explosives as witnessed by the WTC maintenance man, Rodriguez, who testified before the 9/11 Omission group, and was never mentioned in the final report. Not enough juice. Thanks.
quickesst
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LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-07-06 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. I'm no rocket scientist by any stretch,
We agree on that.

It's simple, a building on fire collapsed. The building had seven underground floors plus piles of rubble everywhere after the collapse. The fires in the building pre-collapse started underground fires post collapse. Remember there was vast amounts of combustible materials in the building to maintain underground fires for weeks and weeks.


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quickesst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-07-06 06:55 PM
Response to Reply #7
15. This...


"Remember there was vast amounts of combustible materials in the building to maintain underground fires for weeks and weeks" is almost laughable. I'm trying very hard to let my imagination run wild, and trying to picture the towers coming down, bringing with it fires hot enough to ignite material that this collapsed rubble fell ON TOP OF and buried. Couple that with the tons of pulverized concrete completely covering the area in question, and it just doesn't draw to a flush. Deal again. Thanks.
quickesst

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LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-07-06 08:44 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. Frankly
Edited on Wed Jun-07-06 09:24 PM by LARED
I prefer to play cards using the whole deck. Based on your last response I think you're missing a few cards.
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wildbilln864 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-07-06 09:22 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. I think ...
we loose all credibility when we engage in such weakly shrouded personal attacks, but that's just me.
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LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-07-06 09:27 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. I agree
But IMO quickesst is not really interested in having a discussion based on reality.
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wildbilln864 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-07-06 09:36 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. Well, we all have ...
our opinions no matter how flawed. Don't we? Take mine for instance. It's my opinion that quickesst is correct in his assessments. I still haven't been offered a simple answer as to what was the fuel for this heat source weeks after rains and being hosed upon with h2o. Please, in your own words and not someone else's. It's a simple question. But remember it's only one of many many more that need to be answered! Thank you.
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LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-07-06 10:06 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. ok
Edited on Wed Jun-07-06 10:16 PM by LARED
http://www.osha.gov/Publications/WTC/dangerous_worksite.html

The potential for explosions was always present at the site. In one case, a fuel tank with tens of thousands of gallons of diesel fuel was buried seven stories below ground. With smoldering fires, a rupture could have been disastrous. Once workers located the tank, it was safely emptied, and the fuel was removed from the site.

The parking garage under the WTC held nearly 2,000 automobiles, each tank holding an estimated five gallons of gasoline. When recovery workers reached the cars, they found that some had exploded and burned while others remained intact.

Building 6, the former site of OSHA’s Manhattan Area Office, housed many federal agencies, including the U.S. Customs Service. More than 1.2 million rounds of their ammunition, plus explosives and weapons, were stored in a third-floor vault to support their firing range. OSHA worked closely with other government agencies to determine what protective measures were necessary so that the ammunition could be safely removed.

Another danger involved the high temperature of twisted steel pulled from the rubble. Underground fires burned at temperatures up to 2,000 degrees. As the huge cranes pulled steel beams from the pile, safety experts worried about the effects of the extreme heat on the crane rigging and the hazards of contact with the hot steel. And they were concerned that applying water to cool the steel could cause a steam explosion that would propel nearby objects with deadly force. Special expertise was needed. OSHA called in structural engineers from its national office to assess the situation. They recommended a special handling procedure, including the use of specialized rigging and instruments to reduce the hazards.

Huge underground tanks held more than 200,000 pounds of Freon stored to cool the seven buildings of the WTC complex. This had been the largest air-conditioning system in the country. OSHA personnel were concerned that workers entering areas below grade could be exposed to Freon gas, a known, heavier-than-air, invisible killer. After a leaking tank was discovered, agency staff and the site construction manager carried out special sampling for months until all the tanks were uncovered and safely removed.



Now for my words

The WTC had seven below grade floors. (70' X 200' X 200' at a min. Or think of 200,000+ full cement trucks dumping their loads) As the towers collapsed they filled these basement levels with the contents of a two 110 story office building. Nearly all of the office material is combustible. There are good reasons why building codes requires fireproofing. Office materials create intense fires that get very hot. Remember these building were fully operational, not stripped down for demolition. Think of how much paper, wood, carpets, plastic, etc is in a typical office. Most of the machines used to operate a complex as massive as the WTC are located underground. Many use fuel, have highly combustible elements, Maintenance areas will have all sort of combustible gases.

When the building collapsed it was on fire. This fire did not go out because the building collapse. It simply caught fire to the materials now buried. Under the WTC was a labyrinth of subways, parking areas, tunnels, and power chases. There was plenty of ways to get air to the fires. In fact in underground fire conditions the combustion process approached stoichiometric balance and burn very hot and slowly. A little bit of research will tell you snuffing out underground fire is quite difficult. Regarding your concern about why the water did not work well, there are some good reasons. First they stopped using water at some point because they were flooding other areas. In an underground fire you cannot actually put water directly on the fire. There is tremendous heat generated above the fire that will vaporize the water before it gets to the fire. It's not just a matter of getting water on it.
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diamondsndust Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-07-06 11:32 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. As the towers collapsed they filled these basement
"As the towers collapsed they filled these basement levels with the contents of a two 110 story office building."

If they were filled with the debris of a 110 story office building, where did the fires get the oxygen to keep burning? Wouldn't they have been smothered out? :shrug:

just asking...
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LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 10:09 AM
Response to Reply #25
35. Not at all
Edited on Thu Jun-08-06 10:46 AM by LARED
There is no reason one would expect the fires to be smothered. As I stated above

Under the WTC was a labyrinth of subways, parking areas, tunnels, and power chases. There was plenty of ways to get air to the fires. In fact in underground fire conditions the combustion process approached stoichiometric balance and burn very hot and slowly.
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diamondsndust Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 09:47 PM
Response to Reply #35
43. ok, thanks...
seems plausible enough.
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wildbilln864 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 09:54 PM
Response to Reply #43
44. Mere sophistry!
We will not be deterred!
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diamondsndust Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 10:05 PM
Response to Reply #44
45. oh, it doesn't change my opinion on MIHOP/LIHOP.....
I was just asking about the oxygen to keep the fires burning... I don't trust a damn thing this mis-administration says. I'm in this fight with you, not against you.
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wildbilln864 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 10:12 PM
Response to Reply #45
46. That's great...
thank you and I didn't mean to insult or offend. We'll need all the help we can get to expose the truth. If that can be done. I'm very pessimistic about that!
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diamondsndust Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 10:41 PM
Response to Reply #46
47. It's cool, man...
I'm not offended at all. I consider myself to be pretty sane and rational, yet I have always questioned authority. This whole mess just doesn't add up, in my opinion. I have no faith in this mis-administration at all. Period. If they say something, I question it. They have proven themselves time and time again to be nothing but liars, thieves and thugs. Keep up the good fight and keep searching for the truth.

Let me know if one of you guys would like your own blog because I have one just sitting, not being used, on one of my web sites. This way you could control who comes in there and handle the disruptors yourself instead of having to rely on others for moderation. I don't mind some intelligent rebuttal, but I think it detracts from the conversation when some of these people just come here to trash us instead of offering up intelligent arguments.


PEACE!
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quickesst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 07:28 AM
Response to Reply #20
30. OK Lared....
Edited on Thu Jun-08-06 07:32 AM by quickesst
Let's put this to rest. A little sarcasm is unavoidable here. Human nature. But, if you insist on pretending to be the offended party here at my expense, I will point out that your childish, snarky, inane remark concerning my admission to not being a rocket scientist was the first juvenile salvo. Trying a childish tactic such as you use only lets you escape answering my original inquiry for a short while. If you really think that anyone here cannot see through the pretentious attempts to minimize my observations, I wouldn't bet on it with a loaded deck. Let's get on with it. Thanks.
quickesst
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LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 08:03 AM
Response to Reply #30
32. Let's get on with it.
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LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-09-06 06:15 AM
Response to Reply #30
49. Perhaps I misunderstood you
I thought when you said Let's get on with it you were expecting a response from me. Which I provided. Then I thought you were going to then respond to my comments.

What does your silence mean?
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-07-06 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. Any mechanism that would allow basement explosives to still melt steel
weeks later would allow the fires as they existed on 9/11 to still melt steel.

Molten metal in the basement weeks later proves neither side of this equation.
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KJF Donating Member (792 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-07-06 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. Aluminium
Can I have a link for this please?
"Underground fire clearly get hot enough to melt aluminum, there is no question about that."

Disclaimer: I'm not saying the underground fires were in any way related to any hypothetical thermite, I just want a link.
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wildbilln864 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-07-06 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Questions...
Great post by the way quickesst.
It would seem to me that the incredible collapse of two buildings adjacent to each other would probably smother most if not all the fires out. Fires require oxygen to sustain themselves. After the collapse, probably air could get through to any fuel sources.
What materials inside the buildings have a burn temperature above jet fuel?
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LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-07-06 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. Sure
http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/enviro/EnviroRepublish_786127.htm

Indicate underground fire (coal in this case) can reach 1700 C We only need about 650 C to melt aluminum.

http://www.legaluminum.com/alloys.phtml#ALUMINUMALLOYS


Of course this is not proof the temperatures in the underground fires at the WTC were 1700 C, but only provides some insight into determining if the underground fires are a likely suspect for melting aluminum.

Another danger involved the high temperature of twisted steel pulled from the rubble. Underground fires burned at temperatures up to 2,000 degrees.

From our friends at OSHA http://www.osha.gov/Publications/WTC/dangerous_worksite.html
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wildbilln864 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-07-06 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. Coal!?
I asked what materials were the fuel for these fires reaching such temps and you come up with coal?
In other words, you have no clue!?
Anyone else?
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LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-07-06 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. Try reading the links prior to commenting
Edited on Wed Jun-07-06 08:45 PM by LARED
And reading what I said might be useful as well. But in the spirit of being helpful

The large quantity of jet fuel that spread across several floors of the building ignited much of the building and aircraft contents. This caused simultaneous fires across several floors at the same time. This generated fire conditions significantly more severe than those anticipated in typical building fires (Yong and Kodur 2000, FEMA 2002). The maximum fire temperatures attained in the WTC fires were in the range of 1,000° to 1,100°C. These temperatures were not significantly different from other typical office building fires. However, the rise in fire temperatures was much faster than those in typical building fires and represented typical hydrocarbon fires with temperatures reaching about 800°C in the first 3 to 4 minutes (ASTM 1993).

http://irc.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/pubs/fulltext/nrcc42466/nrcc42466.pdf

This of course is not the temperature in the underground fires. This is the temperature in the office building, burning normal office materials. I already provided a link stating that the underground fires were 2000F.

Can I be of additional service?

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wildbilln864 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-07-06 09:56 PM
Response to Reply #17
22. Yes please, and thank you...
First you can answer the original question and tell us what IYO was the fuel or heat source found weeks, WEEKS after the towers fell. That will be sufficient for now. thanks.
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LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-07-06 10:08 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. see here
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StealthyDragon Donating Member (102 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 01:17 AM
Response to Reply #24
27. I forgot!........
Edited on Thu Jun-08-06 01:17 AM by StealthyDragon
Diesel fuel can melt steel........just like jet fuel can!

But only on 9/11!

Damn those magical shape shifting Arabs!

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KJF Donating Member (792 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 01:53 AM
Response to Reply #11
29. Coal mine
Well, if the WTC had been built on a coal deposit, then we'd have our answer as to why the underground fires were so hot. However, AFAIK it wasn't built on a coal mine, so I guess I'm going to have to keep looking.

This was interesting in the OSHA link you provided:
"Another danger involved the high temperature of twisted steel pulled from the rubble. Underground fires burned at temperatures up to 2,000 degrees. As the huge cranes pulled steel beams from the pile, safety experts worried about the effects of the extreme heat on the crane rigging and the hazards of contact with the hot steel. And they were concerned that applying water to cool the steel could cause a steam explosion that would propel nearby objects with deadly force. Special expertise was needed. OSHA called in structural engineers from its national office to assess the situation. They recommended a special handling procedure, including the use of specialized rigging and instruments to reduce the hazards."

Thanks for that.
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mrgerbik Donating Member (652 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 12:20 AM
Response to Reply #5
26. ok..
Edited on Thu Jun-08-06 12:33 AM by mrgerbik
"the fires in the towers started the underground fires in the rubble. "
"Underground fire clearly get hot enough to melt aluminum"
"vast amounts of combustible materials in the building to maintain underground fires for weeks and weeks"

Uhh, where is this 1700+ degree fire getting its oxygen source from? Through tons and tons of concrete and steel, weeks later? Pffft! Sorry, no way in hell this will happen.

Anyways, I was under the assumption from one of your esteemed "debunkers" that the towers falling caused a massive "pressure pulse" (gravitational friction) as it fell which heated the steel to molten temperatures.

Now coal enters the picture as some sort of gateway into explaining this half-baked theory, as us dumb common-folk would never understand the basic workings of fires under tons of rubble.

It sure is a slippery slope you guys try and navigate.
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SidDithers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 08:07 AM
Response to Reply #26
33. Ever hear of a peat fire?...
They're underground, and burn very hot, for a very long time. Often for years.

"In more recent years one peat fire near Barway burned for months, while another at the end of Mow Fen Drove, Littleport - an unmetalled drove-way - burned for nearly two years."
http://www.pymoor.fsworld.co.uk/fenfire.htm


How about an underground fire at a garbage dump? Nothing more than household garbage as fuel there, in an underground environment where you would expect the oxygen supply to be quickly used up. Yet, garbage dump fires have been known to smolder and burn for months.

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2005/03/15/Cantleyfire-050315.html

The combustible debris from the towers would act the as fuel for an underground fire the same way that peat, coal or garbage would.

In the towers themselves, there was abundant fuel. All the office materials, furniture, computers, wiring, files, plants etc are flammable. Take a look around your own office to see what would support combustion.

As LARED posted above, the structure under the towers was a warren of service tunnels, conduits, subways and parking garages. The debris from the towers was not a homogeneous mass which completely filled the sublevels, but a pile of twisted steel beams. It was definately not an air-tight environment.

Sid

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mrgerbik Donating Member (652 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 07:05 PM
Response to Reply #33
41. One problem..
This was not peat.

Also, the idea that the fire could reach temperatures hot enough to melt steel, just from office combustibles is also extemely unlikely if not impossible.

Do you think these peat or garbage fires could melt steel?
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mirandapriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-09-06 09:48 AM
Response to Reply #33
51.  Thermite provides oxygen which fuels underground
fires. But maybe "al qaeda" dumped a bunch of peat on the area.
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SidDithers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-09-06 11:12 AM
Response to Reply #51
52. OK, I realize you're being intentionally obtuse...
because I would imagine that a person of even average intelligence would realize that I wasn't suggesting peat fueled the fires under the WTC.

But here, I'll reiterate, 'specially for you, and I'll type really slowly, so you won't have any trouble understanding.

Posts earlier in the thread were questioning:

1) Whether fires could be burning under the rubble of the WTC for weeks after the collapse.
2) What the source of the fuel for these fires could be.
3) Where would underground fires get the oxygen needed to support combustion.

I posted the examples of peat fires, to show that underground fires are very common, and can continue to burn for a very long time, sometimes even years.

I posted the example of a garbage dump fire, to show that underground fires are very common, can burn for a very long time, and need nothing more than common, household items (analagous to common, office items) as fuel.

I disputed the claim that the debris filling the sublevels created an airtight environment, and suggested that oxygen to feed the underground fires could have easily been supplied through the warrens of access and service tunnels, conduits, subways and parking garages.

Please, do try to keep up.

Sid
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-07-06 05:47 PM
Response to Original message
12. it was really spilled Slurpees from the slurpee machine
in the basement of the WTC

yeah, that's it. nothing to see here. move along.
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mirandapriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-07-06 06:05 PM
Response to Original message
13. The guy on this video is pretty convincing
I know OCT posters here only believe our honest government spokespeople and corporate media, but I don't.

http://plaguepuppy.net/public_html/video%20archive/red_hot_ground_zero_low_quality.wmv



...and...
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file83 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-07-06 08:26 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. Good photo mirandapriestly.
That was the one I was thinking of but couldn't find. :thumbsup:
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crickets Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 01:51 AM
Response to Reply #16
28. That's the same photo I thought of right away
It goes with this paper by physics professor Steven E. Jones. :thumbsup:
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quickesst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 07:44 AM
Response to Reply #28
31. Also...
Google the little known 1975 WTC fire and do a little comparison with that event to what the gubment says. After reading about it, the only thing the gubment can cling to as the direct cause of the collapse is the impact from the planes, and we all know the building were built to withstand the impact of a 707, which is only slightly smaller than the jets used on 9/11. Here's a little tidbit addressing the myth of design flaw in the towers. They were built extremely well. Thanks.
quickesst

Towers' Design Parameters
Twin Towers' Designers Anticipated Jet Impacts Like September 11th's
According to Hyman Brown, a University of Colorado civil engineering professor and the World Trade Center's construction manager, 1 and 2 World Trade Center were designed to survive an impact and resulting fires from a collision by the largest commercial aircraft at the time, a Boeing 707-340. 1 Contrary to widely promoted misconceptions, the 767-200s used on 9-11 were only slightly larger than 707s.


The above graphic from Chapter 1 of FEMA's Report shows the sizes of a 707 and a 767 relative to the footprint of a WTC tower. 2 Flight 11 and Flight 175 were Boeing 767-200s. Although a 767-200 has a slightly wider body than a 707, the two models are very similar in overall size, weight and fuel capacity.

property Boeing 707-340 Boeing 767-200
fuel capacity 23,000 gallons 23,980 gallons
max takeoff weight 328,060 lbs 395,000 lbs
empty weight 137,562 lbs 179,080 lbs
wingspan 145.75 ft 156.08 ft
wing area 3010 ft^2 3050 ft^2
length 152.92 ft 159.17 ft
cruise speed 607 mph 530 mph

Given the differences in cruise speeds, a 707 in normal flight would actually have more kinetic energy than a 767, despite the slightly smaller size. Note the similar fuel capacities of both aircraft. The 767s used on September 11th were estimated to be carrying about 10,000 gallons of fuel each at the time of impact, only about 40% of the capacity of a 707.

Like All Skyscrapers, the Twin Towers Were Over-Engineered
One aspect of engineering that is not widely understood is that structures are over-engineered as a matter of standard practice. Steel structures like bridges and buildings are typically designed to withstand five times anticipated static loads and 3 times anticipated dynamic loads. The anticipated loads are the largest ones expected during the life of the structure, like the worst hurricane or earthquake occurring while the floors are packed with standing-room-only crowds. Given that September 11th was not a windy day, and that there were not throngs of people in the upper floors, the critical load ratio was probably well over 10, meaning that more than nine-tenths of the columns at the same level would have to fail before the weight of the top could have overcome the support capacity of the remaining columns.

There is evidence that the Twin Towers were designed with an even greater measure of reserve strength than typical large buildings. According to the calculations of engineers who worked on the Towers' design, all the columns on one side of a Tower could be cut, as well as the two corners and some of the columns on each adjacent side, and the building would still be strong enough to withstand a 100-mile-per-hour wind. 3

Frank Demartini's Statement
Frank A. Demartini, on-site construction manager for the World Trade Center, spoke of the resilience of the towers in an interview recorded on January 25, 2001.

The building was designed to have a fully loaded 707 crash into it. That was the largest plane at the time. I believe that the building probably could sustain multiple impacts of jetliners because this structure is like the mosquito netting on your screen door -- this intense grid -- and the jet plane is just a pencil puncturing that screen netting. It really does nothing to the screen netting.

Demartini, who had an office on the 88th floor of the North Tower, has been missing since the 9/11/01 attack, having remained in the North Tower to assist in the evacuation. 4

The Richard Roth Telegram
On Feburary 13, 1965, real estate baron Lawrence Wien called reporters to his office to charge that the design of the Twin Towers was structurally unsound. Many suspected that his allegation was motivated by a desire to derail the planned World Trade Center skyscrapers to protect the value of his extensive holdings, which included the Empire State Building. In response to the charge, Richard Roth, partner at Emery Roth & Sons, the architectural firm that was designing the Twin Towers, fired back with a three-page telegram containing the following details. 5

THE STRUCTURAL ANALYSIS CARRIED OUT BY THE FIRM OF WORTHINGTON, SKILLING, HELLE & JACKSON IS THE MOST COMPLETE AND DETAILED OF ANY EVER MADE FOR ANY BUILDING STRUCTURE. THE PRELIMINARY CALCULATIONS ALONE COVER 1,200 PAGES AND INVOLVE OVER 100 DETAILED DRAWINGS.
...
4. BECAUSE OF ITS CONFIGURATION, WHICH IS ESSENTIALLY THAT OF A STEEL BEAM 209' DEEP, THE TOWERS ARE ACTUALLY FAR LESS DARING STRUCTURALLY THAN A CONVENTIONAL BUILDING SUCH AS THE EMPIRE STATE BUILDING WERE THE SPINE OR BRACED AREA OF THE BUILDING IS FAR SMALLER IN RELATION TO ITS HEIGHT.
...
5. THE BUILDING AS DESIGNED IS SIXTEEN TIMES STIFFER THAN A CONVENTIONAL STRUCTURE. THE DESIGN CONCEPT IS SO SOUND THAT THE STRUCTURAL ENGINEER HAS BEEN ABLE TO BE ULTRA-CONSERVATIVE IN HIS DESIGN WITHOUT ADVERSELY AFFECTING THE ECONOMICS OF THE STRUCTURE. ...

At the time the Twin Towers were built, the design approach of moving the support columns to the perimeter and the core, thereby creating large expanses of unobstructed floor space, was relatively new, and unique for a skyscraper. However, that approach is commonplace in contemporary skyscrapers.

Went back and reread this post, and I'm pretty sure there is nothing in it that can be misconstrued as being uninterested in discussion. Well, unless someone misconstrues this disclaimer.:shrug:

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mirandapriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #16
36. Dr Jones has good information
and there is a video of him presenting his paper, it is even better. He is an affable, credible man, but the OCTS try to discredit him.
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Bushwick Bill Donating Member (605 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #36
39. About the good Dr...
Dr. Jones apparently has samples now that conclusively show traces of thermite/thermate. I would give you a link, but it got nuked yesterday, and I don't want to push the issue. I am sure this info will be ending up in his papers.
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mirandapriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #39
40. I remember he was waiting for some samples from NIST
I'm not sure how conclusively you could show the use of thermite cuz it's just iron oxide + aluminum powder ,which could be explained by other things. Sometimes they add sulfur and there is evidence of that, but that could be there because of corrosion. Thanks for pointing that out, I hope you're right!
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vincent_vega_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-09-06 09:19 AM
Response to Reply #36
50. Frankly I have never seen a clear
analysis of how the presence of molten steel was supposed to indicate chemical demolition. I have seen the explanation that additional "energy" was needed to produce it..in the form of explosives or thermite. Explosives rapidly diffuse their energy (detonation) so thermal effects are minimal, lasting a few minutes. Thermite is extremely hot but also rapidly burns out. Only a long duration burn could produce the results seen, and neither have any lasting thermal effects.
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Dubiosus Donating Member (120 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 08:10 AM
Response to Original message
34. can't read all replys but have to say this again and again
Dubiosus (6 posts) duboard.php?az=send_mesg&u_id=189548duboard.php?az=send_mesg&u_id=189548duboard.php?az=user_profiles&u_id=189548duboard.php?az=user_profiles&u_id=189548duboard.php?az=add_buddy&u_id=189548duboard.php?az=add_buddy&u_id=189548duboard.php?az=add_ignore&u_id=189548duboard.php?az=add_ignore&u_id=189548 Thu Jun-08-06 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #16

18. don't really know

but imo one thing should be clear!

It doesn't matter if these video pics have been manipulated or not.

To discover this scam you just have to open your eyes and take the pain which

of course will enter your stomach and head, you have to see that tyranny is at work

and nearly every scandal which comes up these days is to make you bark up the wrong tree.

Even the a.coulter assault to the widows can be another mislead to the 9/11 setup.

Just read their response and see that none of these women is talking about

real unanswered questions. See it?

To many laws of physics have been out of order on that day!

NOBODY has answered the "building 7" questions and nobody can explain this photo ot me!!!


http://www.editio-defacto.de/editio-defacto/HTML/BILDER...


And don't forget!!! These men are chessplayer who will do everything even two step backword

to camouflage their third and fourth step right into your naive looking and dying face of freedom.


Good luck with Iran! It has to fall for your oily hunger....


The only way to make this mankind a better race could be the whisdom and knowledge of our

ancestors like Victor Schauberger (who wasn't a nazi if anybody say so!! He had to show his genius

to Hitler but didn't want to) who have been forced, in 1954 I think, to leave all his researches in

Amerika just to be allowed to leave the country. And died of grief when he returned to Europe.

Or Tesla who was capable to obtain a so called "free" energy source, which nowadays would lead us

out of the hands of these moneymonsters who want us to be dependent on them.

Be sure! If they would depend on a healthy environment, they would take care. And to me it seems

possible that these "people" have their hands on technology which enables them to leave when work is

done and we are of no use any more.... :evilgrin:



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wildbilln864 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #34
37. Well I clicked the link...
you refferenced and got an error 404 page. Obviously someone doesn't want this to be seen anymore whatever it is. Do you have another link or hopefully someone saved the pic?
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quickesst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. OK...
Here I go again. Before the impact, everything was normal. There were no fires, no explosions, just a normal day. Out of the blue two planes hit the towers expending most of their fuel to the outside of the buildings. The raging fires are a myth as shown by photos of people standing in the impact hole. Also, eyewitnesses state they were not burned to a crisp because of alleged "raging fires". So, a little later, the towers start their collapse. Freeze that collapse at the impact floor. What do you have? You have the greatest majority of untouched floors. Remember, the fires were at the impact level. Now, start the collapse again. Those floors, with all the burning rubble are pancaking down on top of first one clean floor, then another, and so on for about, at a minimum, sixty floors. In my wildest imagination, I cannot see those floors containing the fires, wending their way through falling rubble and finding it's way to being the first to hit the ground floor , and crashing to the basement levels where it supposedly ignited something. How do you suppose the fire you claim for ignition in the basement managed to end up underneath app. sixty floors of concrete, steel, etc.? Just don't see it happening. Thanks.
quickesst
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wildbilln864 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 09:17 PM
Response to Reply #38
42. excellent points again quickesst.!
I'm with you completely on that! I can't see it happening either.
A kerosene fire did not bring down THREE skyscrapers on 911. I'll never believe it as long as there's no real investigation.
There were no raging fires! And personally I believe that the collapses would smother, what was left of any fires, out.
But even if not, there's nothing there to raise the temps high enough to melt the steel.
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Dubiosus Donating Member (120 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-09-06 02:45 AM
Response to Reply #37
48. try this one.

http://www.editio-defacto.de/editio-defacto/HTML/BILDERFOLGE/inhalt_dokumentation.html


under the first point:

Der 11. September 2001

you can find some pictures which are telling their own story.

:headbang:
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