The Lost Cities on Mars

[marzipanni]

What do you think of this? I think it's fascinating...

Lots of images and more analysis of new and old photos of Mars:
http://www.enterprisemission.com/LostCitiesofBarsoom.htm

[tuvor]

1. bush's shock-and-awe tour has gone on an extended tour, I see.

So that's where the missing $half-trillion has gone.

[Rabrrrrrr]

2. Are these people total batshit loonies, or just semi-batshit loonies?

What a load of bullshit.

[PsychoDad]

3. This is the one I found compelling.

Interesting. If it were spotted on earth, would there be any question that it was partly buried ruins?

Peace.

[tuvor]

7. Straight lines, right angles...

Pretty intriguing, regardless of the scale.

[file83]

41. If those are ruins on Mars...that would be HUGH!!!11!1 I'm SERIES!!1!!

(sorry, it's obligatory):thumbsup:

[leftofthedial]

73. hmmmm

[mike_c]

4. um-- scale is everything....

That photo of Shiraz was taken from 1200 m. There is no indication, but the one of Mars was likely taken from closer to 1200 miles. In other words, each of the small "bumps" in the Mars image is likely bigger than the mesa in the Shiraz image. City of 100 ft giant Barsoomians? Probably not.

on edit-- same for the Sarvistan image. In the corresponding Mars image, we're seeing GEOLOGICAL features, probably dozens or hundreds of miles across, not meters like the ruins in the Sarvistan pic.

[PsychoDad]

6. True...

There is a lack of any indication of scale. Would be interesting to find out the real scale.

Peace.

[Richard Steele]

10. Yup. Each pixel in the Mars photo is probably 1-10 meters wide.

Doesn't change the fact that I believe there are some
artificial structures on Mars, but I felt it needed saying.

[Rosco T.]

15. Nope... not these pictures.. much higher resolution

these are from the Mars Recon Orbiter (MRO) taken during it's break-in period. The resolution is 8 FEET per pixel. When it gets to final orbit the resolution will be (based on altitude) 11 INCHES per pixel.

[Richard Steele]

23. Last time I checked, "2.438" still fell between "one" and "ten".

I admit, I haven't really kept up with this 'new math' stuff...
but I really think you have used an inappropriate 'nope' there!

[Rosco T.]

13. Actually, you're wrong.. and right...

the pictures there are some of the first from the new Mars Reconnaisance Orbiter (MRO) taken during it's 'settling in' period. The altitude is about 1500 miles, BUT and this is an important but, the resolution of the orbiter at this time is 8 feet PER PIXEL. When it's in final orbit, it will be about 11 INCHES PER PIXEL. That particular picture is a VERY SMALL section of a much larger picture.

here is the original picture for reference..



want to see something stranger... try this one on for size..



if you want to see several more, and the inages IN CONTEXT and the size relative to the pictures taken, go here..

http://www.enterprisemission.com/LostCitiesofBarsoom.htm

[bbinacan]

5. Is there a full moon tonight?

It seems that way.

[Bucky]

8. Okay, you cynics. Then how do you explain THIS photo? Huh?

I didn't think so

[Bucky]

9. Or what about this? Huh? You see how deep it goes? Don't you see?

They're ALL part of it man. They're all in on it.

All of 'em!

[cynatnite]

11. Iranians lived on Mars

Wow! No wonder bush wants to invade them.

[benburch]

12. Pure idiocy.

Soon we will know every feature on mars larger than a dinner plate. Nothing at all we have seen there is a face, or a city, or a pyramid.

This is all stuff to sell books and videotapes to the credulous.

[Blackthorn]

19. And you have seen *everything*?

I have seen the Face, I have seen Pyramids. i don't know what you've been looking at. I think there was an ancient civilisation on Mars. Bottom line, nature does not make straight lines or right angles. Please provide natural examples of right angles on Earth.

[tuvor]

22. Psst...Nature DOES make right angles.

bush is a blockhead.

[Blackthorn]

27. Several tonnes of cocaine were integral to his creation.

Not quite natural, but point taken nonetheless.

[troubleinwinter]

28. Here are just a very few:

Salt:



Magnetite:





Pyrite:

[benburch]

30. Ha! We picked the same salt crystal! :-) nt

[troubleinwinter]

35. Yah, but I beat ya to it! Here's The Devil's Post Pile National Monument

[benburch]

29. You saw doctored photos.

The people showing these to you were dishonest.

On Earth;


The Giant's Causeway - Not square, but geometric


Salt Crystal


Palm trees


Yet another palm tree


Another sort of tree.

On Mars;


"trap door" feature, entirely natural, as photographed by the Opportunity Rover

On the moon;


The "straight wall" - Only actually straight for segments. But those segments are many miles long.


Several right angles in this picture (foreshortened by perspective)

[benburch]

37. Lots of right angles in this dried mudflat image...

[troubleinwinter]

39. You KNOW

rocks sneak across that place at night, when nobody's watching, right?

[troubleinwinter]

42. and that's why we have so many rocks... they sneak around when

nobody's looking and, well, you know.... that's where little rocks come from.

[Swamp Rat]

43. LOL!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Swamp Rat]

40. Oooo! The Moon!

Beautiful photos of the Moon ... you know it's made of cheese... :rofl: and the Earth is flat... :rofl:

[Blackthorn]

44. The only one that compares to this picture

is salt crystals. i won't be so presumptuous to say that you're suggesting that the formation on the right is a salt crystal, but at any rate, of all the examples you provided only one shows a genuine straight 90 degree right angle. And the scales are so dissimilar. Crystal formations can be explain on a small scale, but have you ever seen a perfectly cubular salt crystal the size of a small mountain?

Bottom line, none of those photos disproves anything except my above assertion. Furthermore, they highlight just how unusual the formations are on Mars. If these are natural, formed by geological activity, where are the similar formations on Earth?


The graphic of perfectly straight palm trees is not a natural formation, it's a graphic.

[benburch]

52. Then I can only conclude...

That you are an idiot. At least, you are acting like one in this case. You seem to have ZERO understanding of terrestrial geology, or of how life itself erases most land forms over time.

Ask yourself; Where are all of the meteor craters on the Earth? Except for a VERY few very young ones, water and the action of plants and animals over the years have softened their outlines, and often reduced them to invisibility!

Barringer Crater and Wolfe Creek (I hope I spelled those right at this hour) are very young and in dry places.

But how about Chesapeake Bay?


Its a crater. - 35 million years old

Here is one from Russia;


Popigai - 35 million years old

Here is one from Texas;
Plug "N 31° 17'W 96° 18'" into Google Local. Set to photo, and back off to the 50 km resolution.
Marquez crater. Cannot see it? Nope. Totally hidden from view now. But younger than the Dinosaurs.

On Mars, however, 54 million years is NOTHING for a crater. Craters that age might be silted in a bit from the dust, but are always visible for what they are.

[baby_mouse]

53. Certainly it doesn't look much like a salt crystal

But *ordinary rocks* form very straighforward straight lines if they are laid down over time to produce sandstones from sediment, also breaks and temperature differences in lava flows can give rise to very clear, straight lines for long stretches and can be found in seams of igneous rock after the lava sets.

It's worth remembering that the crust underneath us is full of these long straight fractures and the reason we don't see them is because usually, when exposed, the surface has been exposed for a long time and has weathered and crumbled and been subject to the forces of life, which messes things up quite a bit.

Having said all that, the right image *is* rather compelling, but given that it's now known that Mars had both water and volcanoes in the past, I suspect the rectilinear strutures in that photo are the result of vulcanism.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

62. Speaking of small mountains...

[troubleinwinter]

93. Here is something interesting...

At least it was quite interesting to me, and others in the audience of a lecture I attended last Thursday, April 6, in Prescott, AZ.

The speaker was Tom Jonas, a professional cartographer. He is also an amateur historian. He became interested in the diaries of a journey of General Stephen Watts Kearney (War of 1812, U.S. Mexican War, commander of the Army of the West, Fort Kearney, "The Father of the U.S. Cavalry"), from Santa Fe to California in 1846.

Specifically, Jonas was interested in an entry describing a geological curiosity described as "an inverted pyramid".

The cartographer studied and charted and traveled the trail in a rugged area east of Phoenix.

Upon coming to the remote area where he expected to find "the inverted pyramid", it took days to find what was determined to be the geological formation. Jonas presented a slide show of the nearly perfect upside-down pyramid, perched on its very tip, 45' feet high.

Tiny upside-down Egyptians did not build it. It is yet another remarkable geological formation in the Southwest United States.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

61. Umm...

1) Fire up Google Earth
2) Go to 9 47' 30" N, 40 41' 00" W
3) Set eye altitude to about 500 miles.

Now tell me what you see.

4) Follow the mid-atlantic ride southeast from that point.

:)

As for pyramids,

[greyl]

63. Look closely at your epidermis.

You'll find millions of right angles.

Really, what's the use of arguing the details of theories that are built upon such fundamentally mistaken ideas about reality?

[leftofthedial]

14. Iranian before and after pix?

oh. one of them is craters on Mars.

[Canuckistanian]

16. This looks interesting...

I don't know how nature produces such large structures with definite boundaries.

I'm not convinced either way, though....

[meisje]

17. Drudge is more believable than the Enterprise Mission

[Richard Steele]

25. Druuuuuuuuudge!

[Rosco T.]

18. BTW.. if you want to see the original sources for these..

.. and the technical info (altitude, resolution, etc) and get ORIGINAL, FULL SIZE, UNCOMPRESED TIF IMAGES

go here...

http://hiroc.lpl.arizona.edu/first_images/first_three/index.shtml


this one will blow you mind...

hiroc.lpl.arizona.edu/first_images/first_three/images/JPG/Release_AEB_000001_0000_Color.jpg (add the http:\\ yourself, didn't wan to put a 6.5mb picture in the message)

look in the craters

[melody]

20. Oh, you'll get lots of naysayers lol

It's the official line of science that there is nothing to any of this and everything in the universe is dull. LMAO

For myself, I agree with Carl Sagan who said he saw things in the initial Mars images popularized by Hoagland that call for follow-up study. The study that has been done is ludicrous in response to the potential importance of the data. I agree with that.

[Hardrada]

33. I wish he was still around.

He would have so much to say about this and about the present loony right assault on science and reason.

[file83]

38. No doubt. Carl would be a very busy man if he were still around.

It seems he checked out during an optimistic time - if he only knew what we were going through without him. (perhaps he does)

[greyl]

69. Where'd you get the wrong idea that Sagan said

something amounting to support of Hoagland? Cut it out, or risk Carl haunting your ass for smearing his good name.

From a critical thinking course dealing with Sagan's book "The Demon-Haunted World":

Chapter Three: The Man in the Moon and the Face on Mars

Reading is optional for this chapter. The chapter is a discussion of ways that we as humans have deceived ourselves with our perceptual and cognitive imperfections. Examples include the man in the moon, canals on Mars, and the Cydonia face on Mars.

http://www.inquiringminds.org/education/guide-sagan.html

More on the fraud Hoagland:
www.badastronomy.com/bad/misc/hoagland/links.html
www.ufowatchdog.com/hoagie.html

[melody]

75. Carl said this several times and in public

Ah, here come the dogmatists - hurl the labels around all you like, but facts are stubborn things and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence. That from John Adams.

>ut it out, or risk Carl haunting your ass for smearing his good name.

Yes, that's the kind of thing I expect from the reactionary folk who hate anyone with an open mind. lmao BTW, I'm an atheist with a background in cultural anthropology. I do, however, really have a problem with the knee-jerk response from the "skeptic" community to things like this. That community tends to have no sense of awe and a real resistance to anything more than dogmatic assertions based on the orthodoxy.

>Examples include the man in the moon, canals on Mars, and the Cydonia face on Mars.

The face, yes, but Carl came out very publicly in support of further research into the "pyramid-like" features on the surface of Mars. Carl also made numerous remarks in public and in private about other surface features.

[greyl]

76. Show me the evidence that Carl Sagan

said anything that amounts to supporting Hoagland's claims.

[melody]

77. Here you go

"As a clear "scientific problem," Cydonia deserves to be fairly tested. There are numerous potentially artificial surface features which merit further inquiry." Carl Sagan in lecture in Point Dume, California in 1992 and later at a Terence McKenna led Hawaii conference

Just the simple weight of vitriol coming from the pseudo-skeptical community suggests y'all see a lot more merit in it than even Carl did. lol

That said, Carl had in private a very different view of things than the one he espoused in public. In later years, only in public did he wear the face of the Inquisition against all "wild claims". Unfortunately, much of scientific discovery comes via wild claims. To resist them is to blind ourselves to potential.

[greyl]

78. Where'd you get that?

Is it in a book by Dean Radin?

[melody]

79. No, it's not in a book by Dean Radin lol

It's a transcript from a lecture tape I have, in both cases. He went up to Terence McKenna's retreat, by the way, to discuss Terence's shamanic experiences. I'm afraid to tell you Carl was far more open to spooky stuff in private than the stance he took in public.

[greyl]

80. Sagan is speaking on the tape?

What's the title of the tape? Is it commercial?
Can you make an mp3 of Sagan saying those words?
- or do you just have the transcript? If so, where'd the transcript come from?

Throw me a bone, jeez.

[melody]

83. It's a personal tape, but I'm sure there's a commercial version

It'll take me awhile, but I can make an mp3 of it if you're interested.

PM me your regular email address.

[benburch]

98. Whose lecture?

Who was speaking? Where? What date?

I'll make certain the Estate is aware of this, because they would be most keen to sue on this issue.

[melody]

103. It's my own personal tape, Ben, why would they sue?

And why would you want them to?

If somebody demands proof, I'll give it to them. I'm definitely not selling anything. Why the personal attack? And why in this instance?

The lecture was an open forum. I knew the people, in both instances, who conducted it. I had permission to tape. Yeesh.

[benburch]

104. No, not sue YOU!!!

Sue whomever said this because its slander. They are very careful about his legacy.

[melody]

105. I said he said it. I taped it So did a lot of other people

Carl would often say things like that in lecture. I have a few of them.

He had one posture to the public and another in private. I have tremendous
respect for him, but he was as variable as all humans are.

I say this as a person of science and an avowed agnostic/atheist (whatever you
choose to call it).

[benburch]

106. Well, if he said it himself on the tape, that is very different.

I had read your posting as suggesting that this was third hand reportage in somebody else's lectures.

[salvorhardin]

85. I would be very surprised to hear that

Sagan in his own words...

SAGAN: Richard Hoagland is a fabulist. By the way, it's not difficult getting hold of the hand-held Hasselblad camera pictures; NASA freely releases them to everybody. These are in the public domain, they're available to anybody. You don't have to do something remarkable to get the pictures. The aspect of this story I know best has to do with the so-called Face on Mars. There is a place on Mars called Sidonia, which was photographed in a mission I was deeply involved in, the Viking mission to Mars in 1976. And there is one picture in which along a range of hulking mesas and hillocks, there is what looks very much like a face, about three kilometers across at the base and a kilometer high. It's flat on the ground, looking up. It has a helmet or a hair-do, depending on how you look at it, it has a nose, a forehead, one eye--the other half is in shadow--pretty eerie looking. You could almost imagine it was done by Praxiteles on a monumental scale. And this gentleman deduces from this that there was a race of ancient Martians. He has dated them, he purports to have deduced when they were around, and it was 500,000 years ago or something like that, when our ancestors were certainly not able to do space flights, and then all sorts of wonderful conclusions are deduced and "we came from Mars" or "guys from other star systems came here and left a statue on Mars and left some of them on Earth." By the way, all of which fails to explain how it is that humans share 99.6 percent of their active genes with chimpanzees. If we were just dropped here, how come we're so closely related to them? What is the basis of the argument? How good is it? My standard way of approaching this is to point out that there is an eggplant that looks exactly like former President Richard Nixon. The eggplant has this ski nose and, "that's Richard Nixon, I'd know him anywhere."

What shall we deduce from this eggplant phenomenon? Extraterrestrials messing with our eggplants? A miracle? God is talking to us through the eggplant? Or, that there have been tens, hundreds of thousands, millions of eggplants in history, and they all have funny little knobs, and every now and then there is going to be one that by accident looks like a human face. Humans are very good at recognizing human faces. I think clearly the latter. Now let's go to Mars. Thousands of low, hilly mesas have all sorts of features. Here's one that looks a little like a human face. When you bring out the contrast in the shadowed area it doesn't look as good. Now, we're very good at picking out human faces. We have so many of these blocky mesas. Is it really a compelling sign of extraterrestrial intelligence that there's one that looks a little like a human face? I think not. But I don't blame people who are going into the NASA archives and trying to find things there; that is in the scientific spirit. I don't blame people who are trying to find signs of extraterrestrial intelligence--I think it's a good idea, in fact. But I do object to people who consider shoddy and insufficient evidence as compelling.

http://www.highbeam.com/library/docfree.asp?DOCID=1G1:133837531&num=1&ctrlInfo=Round19%3AMode19a%3ADocG%3AResult&ao=

[melody]

89. As I said, Sagan was all over the place on a LOT of issues

This only one of them.

[salvorhardin]

90. I fear that you are quoting Sagan out of context

or at least misinterpreting his words. I have Sagan's Demon Haunted World in electronic format and here's a quote that sounds eerily similar to your reportage of Sagan's statement in its' original context <bolding mine>:

Mars has a surface area of almost 150 million square kilometres. Is it so astonishing that one (comparatively) postage-stamp-sized patch in 150 million should look artificial - especially given our penchant, since infancy, for finding faces? When we examine the neighbouring jumble of hillocks, mesas and other complex surface forms, we recognize that the feature is akin to many that do not at all resemble a human face. Why this resemblance? Would the ancient Martian engineers rework only this mesa (well, maybe a few others) and leave all others unimproved by monumental sculpture? Or shall we conclude that other blocky mesas are also sculpted into the form of faces, but weirder faces, unfamiliar to us on Earth?

If we study the original image more carefully, we find that a strategically placed ‘nostril’ - one that adds much to the impres­sion of a face - is in fact a black dot corresponding to lost data in the radio transmission from Mars to Earth. The best picture of the Face shows one side lit by the Sun, the other in deep shadow. Using the original digital data, we can severely enhance the contrast in the shadows. When we do, we find something rather unfacelike there. The Face is at best half a face. Despite our shortness of breath and the beating of our hearts, the Martian sphinx looks natural - not artificial, not a dead ringer for a human face. It was probably sculpted by slow geological process over millions of years.

But I might be wrong. It’s hard to be sure about a world we’ve seen so little of in extreme close-up. These features merit closer attention with higher resolution. Much more detailed photos of the Face would surely settle issues of symmetry and help resolve the debate between geology and monumental sculpture. Small impact craters found on or near the Face can settle the question of its age. In the case (most unlikely in my view) that the nearby structures were really once a city, that fact should also be obvious on closer examination. Are there broken streets? Crenellations in the ‘fort’? Ziggurats, towers, columned temples, monumental statuary, immense frescoes? Or just rocks?

Even if these claims are extremely improbable - as I think they are - they are worth examining. Unlike the UFO phenomenon, we have here the opportunity for a definitive experiment. This kind of hypothesis is falsifiable, a property that brings it well into the scientific arena. I hope that forthcoming American and Russian missions to Mars, especially orbiters with high-resolution television cameras, will make a special effort - among hundreds of other scientific questions - to look much more closely at the pyramids and what some people call the Face and the city.

Even if it becomes plain to everyone that these Martian features are geological and not artificial, monumental faces in space (and allied wonders) will not, I fear, go away. Already there are supermarket tabloids reporting nearly identical faces seen from Venus to Neptune (floating in the clouds?). The ‘findings’ are typically attributed to fictitious Russian spacecraft and imaginary space scientists, which of course makes it marginally harder for a sceptic to check the story out.

One of the things I admired about Sagan the most was his unfailing ability to be gracious and equanimious even when confronted with the most boneheaded believer in pseudoscience. Unfortunately this makes his words easy for cherrypicking choice quotes out of context.

Hoagland et. al. love to quote Sagan out of context as Hoagland does on his website:

Then, near the end of his life, Sagan underwent his final public change on the subject of Cydonia: in a 180-degree turn from the PARADE article, he went out of his way to separate the "Cydonia investigation" from the other, "pseudo-science" targets of his last published work, "The Demon Haunted World." In this final written statement of his life, Carl Sagan deftly contradicted all his previous "official" positions on Cydonia: pointing out that the Cydonia investigation, as distinguished from most "extraordinary claims," stood apart -- by having the one essential precept of "good science" … it could actually be tested. He concluded his "about face" by arguing that, as a clear "scientific problem," Cydonia deserved to be fairly tested in the coming years … via a veritable fleet of new missions then heading back to Mars …

Which, curiously, is precisely when NASA (and Russian) missions to the Red Planet literally began to disappear …
http://www.enterprisemission.com/MTM.htm

That's why I find your claim equally suspect.

[melody]

97. Believe what you need to believe

I don't believe in anything. I go with facts. That's why I don't restrict myself to one author or one philosophy or one
point of view. I'm not quoting him out of context. In both instances, it was a "proctored response" -- a question asked
by the person running the conference -- because he has areas of interest outside the accepted orthodoxy. The question was
"What do you think about the work of Richard Hoagland viz-a-viz "Monuments of Mars"?" Sagan's remark was as I've stated it to
be. As I said, I'd be happy to present audio proof to anyone interested, though it'll take me a couple of weeks.

Carl had a far less simple-minded, concrete view of science than the "heretic stalking" role he took on in the popular press.
Unfortunately, he felt (as do many edge thinkers) that such considerations were "dangerous" for the average person.
He thought science had to be made "safe" for the "average thinker" -- that people weren't smart enough to accept weird ideas.
The truly wild people are the ones who will be remembered. Carl Sagan will be recalled as a footnote, I'm afraid, because
of his wish to be accepted by the mainstream in science.

[greyl]

125. The bottom line is that Sagan said nothing supporting Hoagland.

Your post tried to conflate Sagan's philosophy with Hoagland's, and that was misleading. Perhaps you were reading into Sagan's statement what you wanted to see. Of course Sagan would say that he wants Cydonia to be studied scientifically. Cydonia is an actual region on Mars, not Hoagland's pet name for his hypothetical city.

I'm wondering why it will take two weeks for you to make an mp3.

[SidDithers]

94. No, no...You're making the mistake of using Sagan's public statements...

as an indication of how he felt and what he believed. Didn't you know that in private, his views were much different? It's true, I read it on the internets somewhere.

Sid

[salvorhardin]

108. I see that now

How can I compete against all that wonderful secret knowledge that I so obviously crave but am too afraid to seek out?

[rman]

87. "everything in the universe is dull" - no scientist claims that

You are being disingenuous by saying that it is "the official line of science".

Most scientists in cosmology, astronomy and astro-physics would say that it's exceedingly unlikely that we're alone in the universe.
To conclude from this that these pictures show remnants of a city on Mars - that is unscientific.

[mike_c]

21. bringing this thread back to DU's political roots....

[marzipanni]

26. Nuh-uhhh ....Look closely in the lower right quadrant of this photo

Now, if that isn't an Al Qaeda guy (another number 2?) peeking over a wall, I'd like to know who he is.

[tocqueville]

24. how about that one ? don't worry, be happy

http://www.esa.int/images/247-270306-06-co-GalleCrater-01_L,0.jpg

[DainBramaged]

34. Looks like the Kool Aid guy

[lovuian]

31. It really makes you wonder

doesn't it...

[tridim]

32. Gone surfing.. WTF is up with the bottom portion of this picture?

From: http://photojournal.jpl.nasa.gov/targetFamily/Mars?start=10

[TreasonousBastard]

45. It is the Mighty Zipper of God.

[benburch]

55. Formations caused by melting ice.

I believe that is how that one was explained.

[Kai]

115. You're just

the forum's most debunkingest little debunker aren't you, bennie. Why, I expect that when your mum tried to show you the man in the moon you protested, "But mummy, the moon is nothing but a cold, dead rock! Look, I just googled the pictures from Nasa. There are no living creatures on the moon."

[symbolman]

56. The fabulous Barsoom

Ancient Trailer Park of Mars.. everyone knows that :)

For two summers I spent 18 hours a day in helicopters in Alaska in the 80's looking for Uranuim for the Dept of Energy, and I saw a LOT of strange geographical anomalies.

If you head north near Deadhorse (an oil rig) the whole area before you get there is literally a HONEYCOMB of land and water, looks just like a bees nest from very high in the sky, 8 sided, hex shapes where the dirt is pushed up and they are filled with water, and we swore they were man made, but there were just so damn many of them it would have been impossible for them to have been created by man..

They were PERFECTLY shaped and right next to each other just like I described the honeycomb of a beehive..

But I really have no doubt that there may have been folks on mars, some people believe that WE are the Martians. Mars was much more like Earth millions of years ago, cooler sun, hotter earth, more temperate mars, space weather, star warmth, just move one seat over, or one planet and it's a much nicer place to be, and that would have been mars. Running water, lichen at least, bacteria.. if you have what you need, temperate climate, water in all forms, some sort of atmosphere then surely intelligent life will evolve, there was plenty of time..

Later some of that life got stuck in a rock, knocked into space by meteors and the remnants landed HERE, the bacteria that grew here then evolved eventually into US.

Sadly most of these pictures look like Fallujah. They must have had their Bush Family too.

[file83]

36. There are craters in BOTH pictures. Hmmm....

I wonder how that happened.

[pinniped]

46. I can see a ziggurat!

.

[Warren DeMontague]

47. I remain skeptical, but I fully support going there to find out for sure.

Only one way to really know, I'd say.

[BrotherBuzz]

49. Can we put Georgie back in his flight suit and send him to Mars?

[Beelzebud]

48. Those 2 look nothing alike. Hoagland is a fraud...

I can't believe he still manages to convince people he knows anything at all about science...

Hoagland also believes in intelligent design.. I'm not even joking. The only difference is that he thinks we were designed by aliens...

Pseudo-scientific bullshit is what Hoagland deals in. I'm sorry you fell for it all...

[benburch]

54. He seems to survive on the Art Bell crowd.

The same ones who thought X-files was real.

[Beelzebud]

68. lol, I listened to Coast to Coast back when Art was full-time.

And even Art started to distance himself from Hoagland after he tried to pass of .jpeg artifacts as a buried city covered in what he called "martian poof dust".

George Noorey eats this crap up, as he does every hair-brained "theory". I really miss Art. He allowed the crazies to talk, but he didn't pretend everything they said was true.

[benburch]

70. I always like the Ghost Stories shows...

Especially with the lights out...

[rman]

50. remarkably unsimilar. nt

[zippy890]

51. I think its fascinating too

thanks for posting this.

[KharmaTrain]

57. Remember Boooooshie's Mars Initiative?

...and how the corporate media tried to spin it into the asshat being a "visionary"... :puke:

I've got an idea...let's follow through on boooosh's proposal. We cancel the Iraq invasion, take the money, booosh, chenney, rove and the rest of that cabal, put them in a rocket and send them to Mars.

It'd be the best thing we could do for mankind!

[HamdenRice]

58. Why was this dumped in the 9/11 forum? nt

[benburch]

60. Because it's a nutcase conspiracy theory. nt

[Radio_Guy]

64. So start a CT forum

This thread has nothing to do with 9/11.

[benburch]

66. DU policy.

All nutcase CT material goes here with the 9/11 nutcase conspiracy material.

[HamdenRice]

71. So you think that 50% of New Yorkers are nutcases?

Sorry to inform you pal, but the majority of people now believe that the 9/11 commission report is a coverup and innacurate. So the people who believe in that white wash are more likely to be nutcases.

So why dump crap in the forum that represents the majority view of 9/11?

[salvorhardin]

72. 45% of the country

believes that humankind was created in its' present form less than 10,000 years ago. They're not nutcases and neither are most 9-11 conspiracists. They are, however, sadly ignorant, misinformed and lacking in critical thinking skills.

Just because a lot of people believe something doesn't make it true.

As for the 9-11 commission report, it is likely a coverup of the massive incompetence, criminal negligence and rampant croneyism that is the Bush administration but the essential facts are rather indisputable.

[salvorhardin]

65. You might want to examine...

...the structural similarities between Hoagland's theories and many of the 9-11 theories. It'd be a useful exercise.

[Beelzebud]

67. lol no doubt...

[Anarcho-Socialist]

59. This is proof beyond doubt: pure truthiness of the Martians

They recreated an image of Jesus with an erect phallus:

[pinniped]

82. LOL. Is it 3D?

.

[beam me up scottie]

95. Blasphemer!!!

Jesus was circumcised !

[Anarcho-Socialist]

113. Link? n/t

[KFC]

74. The cities are still there

http://www.unarius.org/mars/index.html

Just read the book by someone who has been there:

"That human beings live on Mars has been proven during a psychic/mental voyage to the planet Mars when the author visited Martian cities, located underground, and telepathically communicated with a Martian scientist. The information Ernest Norman received is now being validated by thousands of photographs of the planet Mars, returned by the Pathfinder, Global Surveyor, Spirit & Opportunity Rovers, and Mars Express space probes."

"Martians are much older in soul-evolution than the earthians. They originally migrated in spacecraft to Mars from a dying planet more than a million years ago. They also came to this earth and started a colony but found it impractical to maintain. It was also explained by Nur El, their planet leader, that this colony became our Chinese race through the evolution of time."

[rman]

81. For fuck's sake

What the hell is this doing here?

We have a pseudo-science forum don't we?

[Random_Australian]

84. The Psuedo-science forum is a place for the skeptics, not the

paranoid or gullible.

Or those who leap to enourmous conclusions.

Or people who believe in mystical crud.

OR these 9/11 theorums either.

[rman]

86. So the point IS to discredit 9-11 conspiracy thinking by lumping it

together with obvious crackpot theories.

What's next? Hollow Earth, Flat Earth, Planet X, Bush created the tsunami?

[JackieO]

88. Democratic Underground shits on the victims of 9/11

every time they do this.

[Random_Australian]

91. Nope. Think about it. (This forum's rules, that is)

This place is more like a safebox to prevent flamewars spreading all over DU.

[Kai]

92. Do they do this often?

It seems disrespectful and disruptive to both discussions.

[Random_Australian]

96. How so? You have a 'hide thread' function, do you not?

Wait, I see, if there were many, yes it probably would be disruptive, but no, there isn't many. (statement subjective)

[file83]

112. They do it ALL the time.

[New Earth]

130. has anyone ever formally complained to the admins?

isn't there a forum they can create for off-topic 'conspiracy theories' and mysteries? can't someone just start a group for it or something? it really is offensive having threads like this tossed into a serious-toned forum that focuses on an IMPORTANT issue such as 9/11.

[benburch]

99. No, the nutcases who say the WTC was full of bombs do.

Those are the ones who shit on the memories of the victims of 9/11.

[mirandapriestly]

100. Uh, many of the victims families are the ones with questions

Mr. Know it all, and at one time I remember people calling those who said there was election fraud "nutjobs" and other close minded words.

[benburch]

101. The fact that evil people duped victims families is tragic.

Because it has taken heat off Bush over his utter failure to capture or kill Osama Bin Laden, and over his role in allowing this event to occur by studiously ignoring his intelligence estimates and by ordering people off the case.

[Name removed]

102. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JackieO]

107. Keep on namecalling

That's about all you've got going for your crappy argument.

[mirandapriestly]

109. Can you imagine DU posters calling people nut jobs

In the civil rights forum, "choice", or race/equality forums? They'd get deleted right away, but for some reeason it's ok for them to do it here. Why does it make people so angry and hateful? I just stay away from forums I don't agree with I don't go there and call people names. What motivates them? I don't get it.

[Kai]

111. Try to keep perspective on

what is important here. In order to present a credible choice for voters in the fall, we need to weed out and discredit the vocal fringe elements of the left who cloud the air with their ravings and distort the kind of sensible centrist message we want to send out to the red white and blue states. If you will consider how effective this has been over the last six years, I'm sure you will see the good sense of not taking a position based on absurd and futile political ideals. We need to emphasize cunning strategy, pragmatic compromise and wholesome patriotic appeal. If you have any questions about this I would refer you to Bertolucci's classic film "Il Conformiste".

[JackieO]

118. No way, it's not allowed

But apparently it's perfectly fine to come in here and harass people looking for truthful answers about one of the most heinous crimes ever. And let's try to equate the topic with any kind of wacky sounding thing by throwing random shit in here constantly. Real nice.

It's a very disrespectful policy.

[smb]

121. Huh?

But apparently it's perfectly fine to come in here and harass people looking for truthful answers about one of the most heinous crimes ever.

I'm not sure that covering up the discovery of lost cities on Mars is all that bad....

[JackieO]

126. What?

I think you broke the funnee

[benburch]

116. You think the WTC was stacked to the rafers with bombs?

Each one undoubtedly labeled "Property of the Bavarian Illuminatati, if lost, drop in any mailbox. Postage guaranteed." And *I* am the one with the crappy argument?

:rofl:

[JackieO]

117. More derision, absurd strawman, unconvincing smiley

That's all you got. I know, because I read your weak but desperate attempt at pushing the buildings-just-fell-down fairy tale. It was debunked. And that's why you're here, mocking friends and family of victims, people who have the nerve to speak up about the obvious bullshit that's being pushed. You can't let go of your failed attempt at flim-flammery, so you gotta run around calling people nutcases.

[Kai]

119. His language could be less inflammatory

but what you have to understand is that sometimes it is in the best interest of a society to capitulate to authority, to support and promulgate the views of authority and to cooperate with their programs. Think of the Vichy French, do you suppose that the Eiffel tower would still be standing if they hadn't had the wisdom to support the presence of the armies of the Third Reich? Yes, collaboration is often more fruitful than conflict and resistance which can only tear the homeland apart. So, when some posters disparage the ideas of a handful of malcontents, try to understand that their remarks, while seeming to have all the superficial aspects of unprincipaled jackals howling after their master's whims, it is intended to preserve and protect society.

[JackieO]

128. Excellent points

Thank you.

[benburch]

120. Debunked?

Just the opposite.

There was nothing but shrieking handwaving in opposition.

[Kai]

122. Well said,

Herr Burch. It is good to see someone of your obvious intelligence, erudition and discernment putting these gabbling fools and their asinine and pernicious theories in their place. I suppose the poor little morons don't know any better. The words they utter in their mis-directed zeal are poison to the innocent ears of true patriots and your informed and sensible remarks are the anti-toxin. You should be commended for taking so much time and effort to subdue them and their idiotic pseudo-science. There will be a place for you in history, sir, you are truly a hero of the homeland.


:dem: :headbang: :yourock: :woohoo: :applause: :dem:

[HamdenRice]

123. Hey Kai! There is such a thing as a ...

sarcasm smilie! :sarcasm:

Otherwise, you are scaring me!

[Kai]

124. Okay, just to avoid any confusion

:sarcasm: :hi:

[JackieO]

127. Debunked!

Trashed... totalled... shall I dig it up?

[frylock]

110. word up..

this is Lounge material.

[yodermon]

114. Hoagland's fulla crap

as others on this thread have pointed out.
However, I do find the D&M Pyramid in Cydonia to be intruiging:



(http://images.google.com/images?q=d%26m%20pyramid&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&percentage_served=100&sa=N&tab=wi for images)

Hoagland, however, see aliens in every corner:

:crazy:

[New Earth]

129. i'm gonna go figure out what this has to do with 9/11

no offense to you....

brb

[SidDithers]

131. Kicking ....

'cause this thread just doesn't deserve to die yet.

:rofl:

Sid