Is American Airlines Part of the New World Order??

[smirkymonkey]

Something doesn't seem right with that airline. Not just what happened with the fundy pilot the other day, but as I was looking up information relating to another post on 9/11, I came across this on a website:
http://thewebfairy.com/911/index.htm

Below are some excerpts from the site, but go to link to read more.

"... the official figures from the Bureau of Transportation statistics indicate that neither AA 11 nor AA 77
flew on Sept, 11 2001. This solves the question of what happened to them. Nothing. Because the flights did not exist. This is consistent with other evidence which shows that they were not the objects responsible for the Pentagon and Nth WTC tower incidents....If you search for AA 11 or AA 77 on different days, you will find that they were regularly scheduled flights
right up to Sept 10. AA 11 was scheduled daily from Logan to LA at 8.00, and AA 77 from Dulles to LA at
7.45. On Sept 11, they were not scheduled. Not cancelled. Just not scheduled.

On Sept 12, they re-appear in the schedule (obviously as cancelled for the next few days) up until Sept 20 when both flights change their numbers.....The data in this search indicates that we have been systematically lied to about the alleged flight paths and hijacking sequence of AA 11 and AA 77, as well as the alleged phone calls made from the planes. It also indicates probable complicity by American Airlines in the events of Sept 11 , 2001"

Does anyone else think that something fishy is going on w/ AA??

It could be tinfoil, but I certianly am never getting on one of their chartered flights to the Rapture ever again.

[kalian]

1. Well....

like shrub "recommended" everybody do right after 9-11...
"don't pay attention to those conspiracy theories"... :eyes:

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[peacetalksforall]

7. Better than attacking the messenger why not

supply some facts or references or explanations...if you have the ability, explain to those reading about the missing flight numbers and whether it was a technical issue or some decision that resulted in FAA records being changed, etc etc etc. It's not often we have an insider...so why not educate us?

[smirkymonkey]

14. Calm Down, It's just a website....

and I didn't design it. I can't understand why people get so freaking upset over the suggestion of a conspiracy. Just choose not to believe it and move on. There is no reason to be so abusive.

Don't like conspiricy theory?? Ignore it. The rest of us have a right to speculate on something that makes no sense otherwise.

[kalian]

16. Because when a belief is threatened....

people become extremely worried about their surroundings.
Seriously, if you believe some to be "true" because it has been
explained to you in such a manner that you believe it to be "true"
and then somebody else comes around, non-official of course, and
challenges that belief...what happens? You become defensive.

Its a normal reaction and unfortunately, 9-11 was a massive
psy-op event that was drilled into the American psyche.

Unfortunately...we'll never know the truth about 9-11...NEVER.

[mac2]

71. Some do....

We know for sure Bush just sat there and allowed us to be attacked. He didn't even get upset. Why is that? He knew the plan?

We know there was prior warning from foreign countries, FBI people, etc.

We know the administration is covering evidence, destroyed it, or prevented the commission from seeing documents related to the defense system response,etc.

Even the surface facts are damming and points a finger to this administration and it's leaders.

A "belief"? Is 9/11 a religious event? Isn't it bad to have a belief in a horror story that isn't true.

[PROGRESSIVE1]

3. The flights were REAL!

There is NO question on that.

This is truly sickening Tin Foil time.

:puke:

[mdguss]

5. They were Real

It may be that those flights have been removed from American's database in deference to the families of those on-board/to defend American against any possible lawsuits that may come out of the tragedy. They were real planes, with real people on them. Lots of people lost there lives--we should respect them by not going for this crap.

[DulceDecorum]

47. American Airlines

can do whatever the heck it wants to do with its own database.
A simple subpoena will open it up.

As for deference to the families,
AA is not about to speak with them or anyone else for that matter.
They have been issued a gag order.
This stuff appears to be classified.

In any case, American Airlines, is REQUIRED BY LAW to report certain facts concerning ANY AND ALL FLIGHTS to the National Transportation and Safety Board (NTSB). Many of these records are available on the NTSB website and there is NO GOOD REASON as to WHY certain information is missing.

Furthermore,
if the NTSB says that a certain flight never took off then
HOW can YOU state that it did?
WHAT evidence do YOU have?

Every aircraft that flies in US airspace must be duly registered by the FAA.

Sec. 47.41 - Duration and return of Certificate.
(a) Each Certificate of Aircraft Registration issued by the FAA under this subpart is effective, unless suspended or revoked, until the date upon which --
(2) The registration is canceled at the written request of the holder of the certificate;
(3) The aircraft is totally destroyed or scrapped;
(b) The Certificate of Aircraft Registration, with the reverse side completed, must be returned to the FAA Aircraft Registry --
(3) Upon the termination of the registration, by the holder of the Certificate of Aircraft Registration in all other cases mentioned in paragraph (a) of this section.
http://www.risingup.com/fars/info/part47-41-FAR.shtml

OK, so that means that the Certificate of Aircraft Registration issued by the FAA will list the date upon which the registration for a certain aircraft ceased to be valid. It will also state the reason for the cancellation.
Agreed?
Good.
Now check this out.

N 644AA Flight 77 Serial 24602 Issued 5/8/1991 Canceled 1/14/2002 Reason:DESTROYED
N 334AA Flight 11 Serial 22332 Issued 1/6/2000 Canceled 1/14/2002 Reason:DESTROYED
http://162.58.35.241/acdatabase/acmain.htm

Hmmmm.
Correct me if I am wrong, but those AA planes,
which were leased from Wilmington Trust,
are alleged to have been destroyed (vaporized?) on September 11, 2001.
So why did it take FOUR MONTHS for the owners to inform the FAA of that fact?
And WHY did the certificate become invalid on 1/14/2002?

Sec. 47.41 - Duration and return of Certificate.
(a) EACH CERTIFICATE OF AIRCAFT REGISTRATION issued by the FAA under this subpart IS EFFECTIVE, unless suspended or revoked,
UNTIL THE DATE UPON WHICH --
(3) THE AIRCRAFT IS TOTALLY DESTROYED or scrapped;
http://www.risingup.com/fars/info/part47-41-FAR.shtml

If you get a birth certificate, it gives the date of BIRTH.
A death certificate gives the date of DEATH.
In both instances, the certificate is issued some time after the fact.
The cancellation date on the registration certificate gives the date upon which the two American Airlines planes ceased to be able to fly,
which in this case would appear to be January 14, 2002.

With all the interest generated by the four September 11 planes,
HOW IS IT
that the owners of this plane have mis-stated the date upon which the aircraft was destroyed?
This is precisely the sort of thing that gives fuel to conspiracy theorists.

Anyhow,
let us see what our friends at United Airlines have to say about their two planes.

N 591UA Flight 93 Serial 28142 Issued 7/1/1996 VALID
N 612UA Flight 175 Serial 21873 Issued 1/18/1984 VALID
http://162.58.35.241/acdatabase/acmain.htm

Ahh, still able to fly the friendly skies, I see.
And who am I to call the FAA
and the entire corporation known as United Airlines,
liars?

Surely the FAA is trustworthy.
Why would United Airlines tell such a lie?
Surely they are telling us the truth when
they BOTH say that the planes known as
Flight 93 and Flight 175 are alive and well.
Now,
what the bloody hell happened to all those people who were supposed to be on them on September 11, 2001?

[smirkymonkey]

17. Nobody is saying that the acutal flights

that flew into the towers aren't real (read the full story on the website and rant to him) it is that those flight numbers (11 & 77) were not the flights that flew into the towers.

Could be a big mixup, but it sounds pretty suspicious to me.

[RH]

31. Yes they are

Their sense of humor would appear to know no bounds.

:nuke:

[mac2]

70. Real what?

Planes were smaller that those that took off? If that doesn't turn your stomach what does?

[DenverDem]

9. The craziest conspiracy theory

is the one where a group of guys who have trained briefly on private planes are able to elude the most comprehensive air defense system in the world and fly large passenger planes with such precision that they collide with skinny sky scrapers in exactly the place that will cause the buildings, that were built to withstand such a collision, collapse straight down, as if by controlled demolition.

You'd have to be delusional to believe that one, oh wait, never mind.

[RH]

32. How much training

do you think the Japanese kamikaze pilots got during the second World War?

The craziest delusion is that the US air defense system is effective.

The facts of that are clear enough.

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

[DulceDecorum]

52. If I know the Japanese,

they didn't leave ANYTHING to bloody chance.
Those pilots were TRAINED!!
As for the US air defense not being effective, I totally agree.

Transponders barely work on any given day,
and September 11 was - as far as transponders go -
Same S*** Different Day.
http://www.gtwn.net/~keith.peshak/FAAcomplaints.htm

What may have happened on September 11
is that the test that John Fulton et al were running,
may have disabled the Mode S ground stations nationwide
thus rendering ALL transponders invisible.
Such an act would badly screw up the Traffic Collision Avoidance System (TCAS) and cause panic with aviators who might conclude that the US was under attack and SCATANA had gone into effect.
http://www.fly-low.com/features/scatana.html
Hence the need to send kick out the techies in the FAA HQ and replace them with public relations officers to spin away the situation.

The FAA appears to be truly incompetent.
http://www.house.gov/science/sensenbrenner_092700.htm

The pilots of the AA and UA planes have questionable credentials and yet were allegedly allowed to fly.
Two of the planes were supposedly destroyed on 1/14/2002
and the other two are STILL registered and presumably able to fly.

This is almost as rich as the INS sending letters to the "hijackers."

At this point in time, we should be looking more closely into the records of those pilots who were certified by the FAA as opposed to those who allegedly hijacked the planes.
I encourage any one of you to trek to the nearest AIRMAN REGISTRY DATABASE and type in the name of the pilot or copilot of your choice and see what comes up.
Remember, your chances of flying with an FAA certified airman are MUCH MUCH HIGHER than your chances of meeting up with a hijacker.

[impe]

34. Exactly

but not only that, allude crashing into other passenger jets in the busy NE corrider WITHOUT help from ATC's. Who helped them plot and change the vectors....

[RH]

42. "plot and change the vectors"?

Is that supposed to mean something?

[mn9driver]

44. PMFJI, but ATC issues vectors for their convenience and in

order to maintain "required separation". If,-hypothetically of course-, I wanted to just turn my airplane towards Manhattan and fly there -even in the middle of the Norteast Corridor at the busiest time of day- the chances of me hitting somone else would be very, very low.

The chances of me pissing off ATC would be very, very high; but these guys didn't care much about that. ATC did vector other airliners around the hijacked flights that day, although they had a hard time "seeing" the hijacked planes or knowing their altitude due to the fact that they had their transponders turned off.

It is notable that all of these planes were "glass" aircraft and had the capability of navigating fairly directly towards their targets with only a simple keypad sequence (presuming you knew the entry format-not that hard to learn how to do one thing). Once they had their targets in sight, they could do the rest by hand.

[impe]

50. Simple Keypad Sequence?

Would you elaborate. It is my understanding these code sequences are not that simple to change and isn't a matter of overriding entries. There are security codes in place to prevent unauthorized changes.

[mn9driver]

51. In a "glass" airplane with the autopilot on and coupled up to

the navigation system, all you need to do is pull up the proper page on the mode control unit, type in the proper identifier of the place you want to go to and then push the "execute" button. The plane flies there. Depending on the airplane and manufacturer, there are minor variations in the procedure. That's about as much detail as I want to go into here.

The sequences are only difficult to change if you don't know the procedure. No "security codes" protect the flight plan-the idea was that the cockpit door was supposed to do that.

[mn9driver]

4. Real airplanes crashed. Real people died. nt

[kalian]

6. And Atta's passport was found amongst the ruins...and...

as well as the body of a tie-up stewardess...
And lest we forget an abandoned car in FL. that had been rented out by
"Atta" that had a Koran and a flight manual (in Arabic mind you) for
a 757...
What else...?

I guess we should shut up now and not question what the government
has told us to believe...right?

[mn9driver]

8. I'm not sure what you're implying. It was all special effects?nt

[DenverDem]

10. I have heard holograms theorized.

Hard to know what to believe any more.

[Nashyra]

11. Those flight numbers were real on Sept 11th

and yes i attack the messenger because he has absolutely no respect for the people and families affected by 9-11 by posting such crap in the context of the what transpired the other day with the "preaching pilot" the two incidents have absolutely no bearing on each other and to even to allude to it is disgusting. I can not believe how often I see on DU Airline trashing posts. Most airline people are blue collar workers who quite often vote Dem.

[smirkymonkey]

15. Forget it - just ignore it then.

Theories are just that - theories.

[Sterling]

18. Why all the vitriol?

For starters many on this thread have misunderstood the question posed by the original post. It's not are these planes real or any such stuff along those lines. The question is why has American been covering up stuff since 9-11.

Why have we not looked into the put options on AA? Lots of oddities that need scrutiny.

[DenverDem]

19. It would seem that to truly respect the casualties and their families

we should be fervently searching for the truth about what really happened.

If the airlines were used in a power elite conspiracy, blue collar workers would not have been involved in executing the action, they would only have been collateral damage victims. So nobody is trashing the good people in your industry.

[DulceDecorum]

21. The 911 families

want to know what the heck happened to their loved ones.
How DARE you attempt to impede an honest investigation into that?

Perhaps you are one of those who blindly follow the leader.
Well, Reagan was the one who said:
Trust, but verify.

We still remember what we were told about Osama bin Laden.
‘‘There’s no need to discuss innocence or guilt,’’ President Bush said. ‘‘We know he’s guilty.’’
http://www.lawyersagainstthewar.org/letters/lawlettertopm.html
Later, we heard the same story about Saddam Hussein and his weapons of mass destruction which NO-ONE has EVER been able to locate.

We MUST verify every single story we have been fed.
EVERY SINGLE ASPECT must be considered and ELIMINATED no matter how absurd.
If you can demonstrate that Webfairy has erred,
then by all means DO SO.
Point out the mistakes that have been made.
Take her work apart, frame by frame.
Go on, what is keeping you?
Not up to the task, eh?

We KNOW that have been lied to about weapons of mass destruction
and the "need" to annihilate the citizens of Afghanistan and Iraq.
What is the truth about the planes of 9:11?

Why are you abusing those who are simply trying to bring closure to this most traumatic event?
Has Nayirah al-Sabah run out of dead babies?
And dying dogs?

How DARE YOU ATTACK a messenger,
one who brings the TRUTH?

And so what if the airline workers vote Dem
WHEN their votes,
like MINE
are NOT going to be registered by DIEBOLD!!
The Republicans have won already.
THEY are the ones counting the votes.

IT is NOT the airline workers - many of whom were terminated after September 11 - who are at fault. A good look at that page clearly demonstrates that fact.
Furthermore, airline workers have been gagged,
and we do not accept you as their spokesman.

If this thread offends you,
then hit the IGNORE button or use the HIDE THREAD
and leave the rest of us the heck alone.
We can do very well without your respect and your presence here.

[DenverDem]

22. Dude, you rock!

I want to be on your team.

As ee cummings wrote:

"there is some shit i will not eat"

[kalian]

13. No...all I'm saying is....

that if you buy ONE PART of the story, then you have to believe
everything else.
And yes, those planes slammed into the WTC...no question about that
and the original post was not about whether those aircraft were
"holograms" or the real deal...it was about their FLIGHT NUMBERS.

[mn9driver]

20. Agreed. Airplanes hit the WTC and Pentagon. But the original

post implied

"..that they were not the objects responsible for the Pentagon and Nth WTC tower incidents...."

because of a flight number discrepancy on a DOT website.

Sorry, I'm not buying what they're selling.

AA 11 and AA 77 did operate on 9/11. They did have full working crews and paying passengers on board, and they all died, along with the hijackers. They were not holograms. They were not remote controlled. They were not cruise missiles. Here is a site that shows a pretty clear analysis of a piece of wreckage, accompanied by a spate of conspiracy-type comments from folks who are heavily invested in tinfoil.

It's possible, even likely that *w and his neocon buds bear a heavy responsibility for snoozing (ignoring the warning signs, concentrating on IRAQ) and schmoozing (sucking up to the Saudis) all the way up to and even past 9/11, and I hope we eventually NAIL them for that, but there's not enough tinfoil in the world to get me to believe in mysterious CIA-controlled flying bombs, or some secret government-generated plot to MAKE this happen.

Hell, those guys couldn't even plant WMD's in Iraq.

[DulceDecorum]

24. RE: they all died, along with the hijackers

FALSE.
Several of the "hijackers are STILL ALIVE."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1559151.stm

Furthermore,
several of the UA and AA pilots have really interesting airman credentials.
For example, the co-pilot on Flight 77:
DAVID MICHAEL CHARLEBOIS:
1454 T ST NW
WASHINGTON DC 20009
Appears on some databases with a different address.
EXPIRED CERTIFICATE
Name: David Michael Charlebois
1448 Swann St NW
Washington, DC 20009
Region: EA
Medical Class: First
Medical Date: 11/2000
Medical Expiration Date: 05/2001
Certificate Type(s): Pilot Flight Engineer
Certificate Level: Airline Transport Pilot

If there is anything to indicate that this man ever renewed his certificate,
it is NOT readily available.

And as for the analysis of the wreckage,
It is not worth a tinker's damn.

The FAA is required BY LAW to maintain certain records.
http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/49/44107.html
EVERY SINGLE PIECE OF EVERY SINGLE PLANE that flies within US airspace (and that includes foreign airliners) is recorded.
The FAA is supposed to know the entire history of every single component from the factory, via the dealer to the mechanic ID number and the date of installation.
Yet and still, the FAA is BARELY involved in this case.
Why?
Because there is virtually NO DEBRIS.
Which means that there is NO APPRECIABLE EVIDENCE of ANY crash whatsoever.
Hence, the NTSB has NOTHING TO WORK WITH
and that is probably the reason behind the amount of interest expressed on this page.
http://www.ntsb.gov/pressrel/prsrel0100.htm

A "flight number discrepancy on a DOT website" is NOT a SMALL matter.
It would take "some secret government-generated plot to MAKE this happen."

"A flight number discrepancy on a DOT website"
constitutes a major violation of federal law,
and implies a MUCH LARGER CONSPIRACY than anything any "tinfoil-hatter" here has EVER implied.
When you accuse the DOT of cooking their books
- by having "a flight number discrepancy on a DOT website" -
you are also accusing,
in this case,
ALL THE AIRLINES
and ALL THE AIRPORTS
and ALL THE PEOPLE IN THE ENTIRE AVIATION INDUSTRY
of participating in some massive cover up.

I just cannot buy that.
It is MUCH more logical to assume that some Machiavelli somewhere is trying to feed us a line but the regular joes are just doing their jobs and the data they routinely present is screwing the Machiavelli story royally.
http://mail.byrss.com/Pages.asp?d=34669_4019EC8E3F4AA1EA&id=34669&date=

[mn9driver]

26. Funny you should mention a pilot license.

I have mine sitting on the desk right in front of me- Airline Transport Pilot -I wanted to look at it to be sure I didn't put out any bogus information.

There's no expiration date on it. It doesn't expire. Ever.

My Flight Engineer Certificate has a different address on it, because it was issued 16 years ago. It doesn't expire either.

I'll pull out my FAA medical certificate now....

It says "Medical Certificate 1st Class", then name, DOB, Ht. Wt. etc.
It has a "date of examination", in this case, 11/21/2003, but no "expiration date".....but wait!

On the back is an explanation of how long it's good for:

a.FIRST CLASS-6 calendar months for those operations requiring a First-Class Medical Certificate; 12 calendar months for those operations requiring only a Second-Class Medical Certificate; or 24 or 36 calendar months as set forth in 61.23, for those operations requiring only a Third-Class Medical certificate.

I am a DC9 Captain for a major airline (9Driver-that's me!). I need to get a physical every 6 months to maintain 1st class status and pilot-in-command privileges. As a copilot, Mr. Charlebois was required to only have a Second-class certificate. If AA is like my company, they make the first officers (copilots) get First-class medicals, but only once per year since they only need Second class privileges as they are not the pilot-in-command. Bottom line: no discrepancy. Sorry.

I'd look at the rest of your claims tonight, but it's past my bedtime. I do also have some background and training in aircraft accident investigations, though, so maybe I'll make the effort later.

[RH]

33. Thanks for that

With the dissemination of false facts being the only way to endlessly perpetuate a false theory it is always good to get back to reality.

Further for instance to "It would take "some secret government-generated plot to MAKE this happen." it would be interesting to know by what route the flight information (take ff times etc.) gets back to the BTS database. Would the lack of data for some 9/11 flights possibly be due to the general disruption or would it more precisely be because a deceased flight crew would not be as well fit to meet a given responsibility?

[mn9driver]

35. Airlines report to the Dept. of Transportation via

summary forms. All the actual flight data is generated-at least in the bigger aircraft-via a computer datalink system known as ACARS. The system senses door closing/opening, takeoff/landing and brake release/set to automatically determine and send departure and arrival times to the associated airline. The info then goes through their computer systems to calculate flight time, crew pay etc.

As far as I know, there is no direct connection between these airline computer sytems and the government. All that information has to be manually transferred.

The flights on 9/11 never arrived, so the normally ACARS generated information would have to be input manually in order to create a record. The system is programmed to ask for manual inputs when something happens that doesn't make sense, like leaving the gate but not taking off or having a door open after the brakes are released. If you don't make the input, the record of the flight is never created and put into the system-it just sits there incomplete until someone notices. I imagine that eventually it would "time out" and just get dumped.

I don't know what happened to the flight data for these flights, but since they didn't complete normally it would take some kind of human intervention to create/complete the record. Considering the circumstances, it wouldn't suprise me if that got screwed up in some way.

[RH]

39. It is not at all surprising

if something was screwed up.

It is not so easy to get the hang of this ACARS business.

One peculiarilty is that there appears to be no BTS data for the landing of the aircraft at Boston, the one that soon departed as Flight 11 to LAX, albeit that the take off data does exist for its departure (from San Francisco) the night before.

That circumastance therefore suggests that the data is downloaded from an aircraft during the flight, and on this occassion the prospect was rudely interrupted. It may even be that the downloading was deliberately interupted to show that something was wrong.

I'd just like to be as clear as possible about it. If there is any room for doubt we'll never hear the last of it.

[mn9driver]

40. There is no direct data pipe between the airline computers

and the BTS database. All of the times generated by ACARS go first to, in this case, AA's computer system. At some later time, probably weekly or monthly, the data is transmitted to the Dept. of Transportation, then to the BTS.

The latest data I can access in the BTS database seems to be December 2003, so it's not a real-time thing. As far as why there's no arrival time for flight 198 from SFO on 9/11 in the BTS data: it either didn't get entered or it was later redacted.

Most AA times and tail numbers for Boston on 9/11 seem to be missing. Many represent flights cancelled after the hijackings, but some of those flights did in fact arrive, and mostly are not listed either: specifically, 138, 192, 194, 198, 384, 656, 688, and 1840 should have arrived before the mass cancellations occurred, but are not listed.

I think this is due to the person whose job it was to do this probably had other things to do that day.

[RH]

41. "summary forms" etc.

is easy to understand, as is the possibilty that there were a few other things to think about on the day.

But I am still struggling with real time end of it: "the system senses door closing/opening, takeoff/landing ...."

That presumably means that at the sharp end, in the first instance, the data is gathered aboard an aircraft as it takes off or lands. Does it then get to the airline's ground system immediately by radio or eventually via some electronic memory device or what?

[mn9driver]

43. Yes. ACARS sends out/off and on/in reports in real time

to the associated company computers. This normally happens automatically: no crew intervention required. The radio link is via a third party radio network known as ARINC, which provides nearly seamless worldwide coverage on VHF and HF frequencies for stuff like datalink and company voice reports. I believe most airlines use their services.

Could the Feds patch into this system to suck the data out automatically? I suppose so, but ARINC would expect them -or the airlines- to pay for the service, and that ain't happening.

It does screw up now and then. It's fairly common to run into "dead spots" where ACARS can't connect to the system, in which case, the message is supposed to go into "queue" and be sent later when contact is reestablished. Usually this happens, but sometimes the message just gets lost in the ether, in which case I get a late night phone call from the airline, wondering what time we got in.

Usually, it's a trouble free and transparent system. Flight crews like it because it takes care of a lot of the things we used to have to do manually with voice radio calls.

[RH]

45. That's very interesting.

To what extent then (if any) could ARINC be used to track an aircraft with its ATC transponder turned off, or would the ARNIC link thus be turned off as well?

[mn9driver]

46. No, ACARS doesn't do that.

Although, I suppose it would be possible to create a "hijack mode" in the software that could automatically stream lat/long positions via the ACARS unit -but only in aircraft with a GPS or inertial interface to ACARS- ie, the "glass" ones. Converting streaming lat/long data into a real-time ATC display would require some extra work, too.

This mode doesn't currently exist-at least, to my knowledge :tinfoilhat:. If it did, to be effective it would have to be closely held information in since you can kill the ACARS by pulling its' circuit breaker-no harder than turning off a transponder.

[DulceDecorum]

54. It is always interesting

to observe a conversation like yours.
Unfortunately,
whenever one actually goes and checks up on your statements,
one frequently finds that the overwhelming majority of people in the industry have a completely different explanation.

From listening to you, one might assume that the neither
the air traffic controllers nor
the airport nor
the folks in charge of ensuring safety in the National Air Space, have any idea of what is transpiring with a particular aircraft
UNTIL the airline lets them know.

Is this any way to run aviation?

Think of it this way.
If we were to use the analogy of a child heading off to school,
the parents know what time the child was dropped off at the bus stop,
the other children know whether the child got on the bus,
the bus driver also notes if the child got on the bus,
the bus driver checks to make sure that all children have gotten off the bus,
and the teacher takes roll call.
NO-ONE is depending on the child to let them know what is going on.
Should the child go missing, there are many and several persons who can assist in establishing the point at which the child disappeared.
In most instances, it is the school that calls to inform the parents that their child is missing. That is because it is the school's job to account for the child between certain times of the day.

Mind you, that is just an analogy.
THE national airspace is FAR more tightly controlled.
And they know damn well that if a plane explodes, there may be difficulty in "sucking out" the data that was supposedly on board.

People OUTSIDE of American Airlines KNOW EXACTLY what is going on with AA planes when they are in flight.
That is what air traffic control is all about.
http://www.arinc.com/news/2001/04-24-01.html
http://www.arinc.com/news/2001/10-18-01.html
http://www.arinc.com/corp_info/media_campaign.html

And as for the transponders,
they don't appear to work half the time anyway.

[mn9driver]

57. Why don't YOU explain to us how ACARS works, DD? nt

[DulceDecorum]

61. My point was

that the pilot was not the one totally responsible for the data input into the system.
And the system verifies that point.
http://www.arinc.com/corp_info/history.html
http://www.arinc.com/products/voice_data_comm/index.html

ACARS info is routed through the ACARS master computer.
Since the company that operates and maintains this computer is tight with the military and federal law enforcement, then it is fair to assume that the data stored on it would be made available to the FAA and NTSB and other feds who needed or wanted it. This would happen with or without the co-operation of the airline and nobody would give a smidgen as to what type of data the airline had or had not received from its own plane.
http://www.arinc.com/corp_info/media_campaign.html

Now if Mr. John Fulton and Co. managed to short out this master computer on the morning of September 11, 2001,
then they effectively fried the nations air traffic control.
If all the functions performed by ACARS suddenly went dead,
then a pilot might well be forgiven for thinking that SCATANA had been implemented and that the nation was under attack.

A short circuit in the ACARS central computer
would also mean that information that is routinely sent to the BTS database - such as tail numbers and take-off times - would go missing. And we know for a fact that the BTS database has many many gaps in the reports for that day.

Without the ACARS feed from the central computer,
the airlines would NOT be able to tell WHERE their aircraft were
or if anything had happened to them.
Confusion would reign, just like it did on September 11, 2001.

EVERY SINGLE ASPECT of US air traffic control
is TOTALLY DEPENDENT on this ONE SINGLE PRIVATE COMPANY and if anything ever shuts down it's mainframe computer,
then the national airspace will follow suit - just like September 11, 2001.
You will be please to note that this one company has expanding its operations to encompass European air traffic control. Asia and Latin America are also on the agenda.

But I digress:
you had asked for an explanation of ACARS.
http://www.acarsonline.co.uk/aclink/alabout.htm

Second paragraph onwards....
http://www.javiation.co.uk/acars.html

[mn9driver]

63. I can see I'm not piercing your armor, DD

"ACARS Master Computer"?? Is that sort of like AOL's "Master Computer", or ATT Wireless'"Master Computer"??

I know, it must be like the US Government's "Master Computer".

You might find it useful to actually read the information at the bottom links you posted. The top ones are just PR garbage.
Or you could just review posts 35, 40, 43 and 46.

By the way, ACARS is a nice-to-have item. A convenience item. A workload decreasing item. If ACARS went down worldwide, what would happen?

Nothing. Nice fantasy, though.

[DulceDecorum]

65. Reading the two bottom links reveals the following:

This solution is called ACARS (Aircraft Communications Addressing and Reporting System). It is basically a network of several hundred ground radio stations, mostly situated in North America and Europe, which enable aircraft to operate as airborne computer terminals linked to them by VHF radio. Those who are familiar with amateur packet radio will recognise the similarity between this and ACARS. Information is automatically collected from sensors on board the aircraft and transferred over the radio link to ACARS ground stations, whence it is relayed to a central processing computer for distribution to users such as airlines via ARINC's electronic switching system. Currently in North America alone, over 2 million ACARS messages are processed every week! In addition to automatic data messages, the system is becoming widely used for transmission of weather information, fault reporting, and any other text messages that may be required between aircraft and ground.
http://www.javiation.co.uk/acars.html

Hmmmm
Information is automatically collected from sensors on board the aircraft and transferred over the radio link to ACARS ground stations, whence it is relayed to a central processing computer for distribution to users such as airlines via ARINC's electronic switching system.

Yep
there it is again:
"it is relayed to a central processing computer"

I jus knowed I seen that CENTRAL PROCESSING COMPUTER reference somewhar thar.
And in a link endorsed by mn9driver to boot.
Now let's jes have a look at the other one.

The ACARS system is comprised of the following elements:
1. The Airborne Subsystem, onboard the aircraft, which consists of the:
a.) Management Unit Receives ground-to-air messages via the VHF radio transceiver, and also controls the replies.
b.) Control Unit is the air crew interface with the ACARS system, consisting of a
display screen and printer.
2. The ARINC Ground System, which consists of all the ARINC ACARS remote transmitting/receiving stations, and the ARINC computer and switching systems.
http://www.acarsonline.co.uk/aclink/alabout.htm

What was that agin?
2. The ARINC Ground System, which consists of all the ARINC ACARS remote transmitting/receiving stations, and the ARINC computer and switching systems.

Well, dag-nab it
but it sure looks thar is an ARINC COMPUTER in thar someplace.
And it sure sounds like that thar ARINC COMPUTER is the thang that spits out the data sideways to those that want it and holds it back from them that don't.

Mr mn9driver
I ain't smoked or drank nothing at all today that a Revenuer would take exception to,
and I do declare that it does seem to me that thar is an ARINC COMPUTER in thar somewheres masquerading as as a CENTRAL PROCESSING COMPUTER.
Mr mn9driver
don't YOU see it, plain as day?

And I wanna ask ya somfin
Mr mn9driver sir.
Now you said that if that thar system crashed
(like some folks think it did on September 11)
that nuthin would happen
to upset the pilots and controllers and BTS and all.
So,
WHY in tarnation are we'all using this here ACARS system
all over the dang planet
if we'all can get along with it jes fine?

[Woody Box]

58. So ACARS generates the wheels-off data automatically?

That's interesting.

So the odd wheels-off time 8:23 of flight 175 in the BTS database is not caused by some incompetent employee?

(Because since 9/12/01 we are told that flight 175 took off at 8:14, i.e. 9 minutes earlier.)

Maybe a software bug?

[Woody Box]

59. Another software bug

Concerning Flight 93:

Since 9/12/01 we are told that the plane took off at 8:42.

But ACARS says 8:28.

Is it possible ACARS needs an overhaul?

[mn9driver]

60. ACARS generates two departure times.

One at brake release (departure), and one at lift off. These times can be manually overridden by the respective airline's flight times office if there is reason to do so.

[DulceDecorum]

55. An expired medical certificate

should have been reason enough to ground David Charlebois.
George W Bush did not report for his physical and therefore was barred from flying for the Texas National Guard.
How come this guy got to fly a PASSENGER PLANE?

[mn9driver]

56. Not expired, DD. Read my post again. Slowly. nt

[DulceDecorum]

62. Read this: at whatever speed you like.

Airman Database information:
Name DAVID MICHAEL CHARLEBOIS
Street 1448 SWANN ST NW
City WASHINGTON DC 20009-3904
FAA Region Eastern
Medical First Class, Issued 11/2000, Expires 05/2001

Certificate Flight Engineer
Rating Turbojet-Powered

Certificate Mechanic
Ratings Airframe
Powerplant

Certificate Airline Transport Pilot
Ratings Airplane Multiengine Land
Airplane Single-Engine Land (Commercial Pilot)
************************************************

Airmen Certificate Search Results
Name: David Michael Charlebois
1448 Swann St Nw
Washington, DC 20009

Region: EA
Medical Class: First
Medical Date: 11/2000
Medical Expiration Date: 05/2001
Certificate Type(s): Pilot Flight Engineer
Certificate Level: Airline Transport Pilot
Rating: Airline Transport Pilot Airplane Multiengine Land
Rating: Commercial Airplane Single Engine Land
Rating: Flight Engineer Turbojet Powered
Rating: Mechanic Airframe
Rating: Mechanic Powerplant
Rating: Airline Transport Pilot Airplane Multiengine Land
Rating: Commercial Airplane Single Engine Land
Rating: Flight Engineer Turbojet Powered
Rating: Machanic Airframe
Rating: Machanic Powerplant
Rating: Airline Transport Pilot Airplane Multiengine Land
Rating: Commercial Airplane Single Engine Land
Rating: Flight Engineer Turbojet Powered
Rating: Machanic Airframe
Rating: Machanic Powerplant
Rating: Airline Transport Pilot Airplane Multiengine Land
Rating: Commercial Airplane Single Engine Land
Rating: Flight Engineer Turbojet Powered
Rating: Machanic Airframe
Rating: Machanic Powerplant
*****************************************************************

Name & Address FAA Office & Medical Certifications
CHARLEBOIS, DAVID MICHAEL
1448 SWANN ST NW
WASHINGTON, District of Columbia
20009-3904
USA FAA Region: Eastern
Medical Class: 1
Date of Last Medical: November 20, 2000
Date of Medical Expiry: May 20, 2001 Pilot:
ATP: Airplane Multiengine Land
Commercial: Airplane Single Engine Land
Flight Engineer:
Turbojet Powered
Mechanic:
Airframe
Powerplant
**************************************************

Tell me again
HOW he managed to retain his status
as Airline Traffic Pilot
WITHOUT
a CURRENT medical certificate.

9. Classes of Medical Certificates
An applicant may apply and be granted any class of airman medical certificate as long as the applicant meets the required medical standards for that class of medical certificate. However, an applicant must have the appropriate class of medical certificate for the flying duties the airman intends to exercise. For example, AN APPLICANT WHO EXERCISES THE PRIVILEGES OF AN AIRCRAFT TRANSPORT PILOT (ATP) certificate MUST HOLD A FIRST CLASS MEDICAL CERTIFICATE. That same pilot when holding only a third-class medical certificate may only exercise flying activities of a private pilot certificate.
http://www2.faa.gov/avr/aam/Game/Version_2/03amemanual/WEB/Chapter%201/1.9.htm

Suppose Charlebois wound up having to pilot that plane,
then where does that leave us?

10. Validity of Medical Certificates
A. First-Class Medical Certificate: A first-class medical certificate is valid for the remainder of the month of issue; plus
6-calendar months for activities requiring a first-class medical certificate, or plus
12-calendar months for activities requiring a second-class medical certificate
http://www2.faa.gov/avr/aam/Game/Version_2/03amemanual/WEB/Chapter%201/1.10.htm

The First Class Medical certificate expired in May 2001.
Charlebois was an ATP.

To earn a pilot's certificate, an applicant must demonstrate the aeronautical knowledge, skills, and experience prescribed for the type of certificate and rating desired. Applicants must also meet certain physical standards, and PILOTS MUST CONTINUE TO PASS PERIODIC MEDICAL INSPECTIONS IN ORDER TO MAINTAIN A VALID CERTIFICATE. The examinations are performed by private physicians designated by FAA as aviation medical examiners.
There are five main types of pilot certificates. Student pilots may not carry passengers or use certain designated high-density airports. Recreational pilots cannot carry more than one passenger and must remain within 50 nautical miles of the home airport. Private pilots may use any airport in the national airspace system and carry more than one passenger, but not for hire. Commercial pilots may carry passengers or cargo for hire, but ONLY AIRLINE TRANSPORT PILOTS CAN SERVE AS PILOT OR COPILOT ON AIR CARRIER FLIGHTS.
http://www2.faa.gov/asw/asw050/av_safety.html

And in order to maintain their certification as ATPs
they must also a have valid First Class Medical certificates.
Read the following VERY CAREFULLY because that may be where the confusion is creeping in.

Airline Transport Pilot
Minimum of 1,500 flight hours.
Required license to be a Captain for an airline.
NOT required to be a Copilot / First Officer for an airline.
MINIMUM for most airlines is: Commercial, Multi-engine, Instrument.
A First Class Medical is required. RENEWAL REQUIRED EVERY SIX MONTHS(for ATP privileges).
Another Knowledge Test and Practical Test is required.

The MINIMUM is the LEAST one can get away with.
Charlebois was ABOVE the minimum.
Why would he allow his ATP privileges to lapse?
That is like giving up your PhD because the job only requires a masters. If you NEED the PhD in order to move up, WHY would you let it go?

FAR 61.23 - Medical certificates: Requirement and duration.
(a) Operations requiring a medical certificate. Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section, a person:
(1) Must hold a first-class medical certificate when exercising the privileges of an airline transport pilot certificate; .......

(c) Duration of a medical certificate. (1) A first-class medical
certificate expires at the end of the last day of--
(i) The sixth month after the month of the date of examination shown on the certificate for operations requiring an airline transport pilot certificate;
http://www.smartregs.com/data/sf6123.htm

Whichever way you cut it,
Charlebois was NOT legally permitted to exercise the privileges an ATP after May 2001.
And if US air carriers are allowing the credentials of their copilots to lapse in this manner, then I am flying with someone else.

[mn9driver]

64. Sorry you are unable to understand it. My sympathies.

[DulceDecorum]

66. Compare and contrast

Flight 11:
JOHN ALEXANDER OGONOWSKI: Pilot in Command
315 MARSH HILL RD
DRACUT MA 01826
LISTED ON MOST DATABASES
Region: NE
Medical Class: First
Medical Date: 04/2001
Medical Expiration Date: 10/2001

Flight 77:
DAVID MICHAEL CHARLEBOIS: Co-pilot
1454 T ST NW
WASHINGTON DC 20009
Appears on some databases with a different address.
EXPIRED CERTIFICATE
Name: David Michael Charlebois
1448 Swann St NW
Washington, DC 20009
Region: EA
Medical Class: First
Medical Date: 11/2000
Medical Expiration Date: 05/2001
Certificate Type(s): Pilot Flight Engineer
Certificate Level: Airline Transport Pilot

The database only allows six months between the date the medical certificate is obtained and the date when it expires.
Ogonowski had a valid First Class Medical Certificate
and was therefore entitled to exercise the privileges of an Airline Transport Pilot.
The First Class Medical certificate held by David Charlebois
EXPIRED THREE MONTHS PRIOR to September 11. We are told he was on board Flight 77 and also that he was acting as co-pilot despite this.
However,
since mn9driver assures us that such characters are routinely permitted to co-pilot with this type of certificate,
DulceDecorum will graciously accept the word of mn9driver.
Let us look at the other co-pilots of the ill-fated aircraft.

Flight 11:
THOMAS EDWARD MCGUINNESS: Co-pilot
979 CLINTON FRANKFORT RD
CLINTON PA 15026
NOT LISTED on most databases.
POSSIBLE ALIASES
THOMAS JOHN McGINNIS:
3249 Lester Dr
Highland, MI 48356
Region: GL
Medical Class:
Medical Date: /
Medical Expiration Date: /
Certificate Type(s): Machanic Machanic
THOMAS MICHAEL McGINNIS:
9420 Albert Rd
Ozone Park, NY 11417
Region: EA
Medical Class: Third
Medical Date: 06/2002
Medical Expiration Date: 06/2004
Certificate Type(s): Pilot Pilot
Certificate Level: Student

Oh dear.
That does not look good.

Flight 93:
LEROY WILTON HOMER JR: Co-pilot
4 SWEETGUM CT
MARLTON NJ 08053
NOT LISTED on most databases.
POSSIBLE ALIAS: STILL ALIVE
ROBERT LEROY HOMER
10751 Wilshire Ave. NE
Albuquerque, NM, 87122-3138
Region: SW
Medical Class: Third
Medical Date: 9/2001 UPDATED TO 9/2003
Medical Expiration Date: 9/2003 UPDATED TO 9/2005
Certificate Type(s): Pilot Pilot
Certificate Level: Private
Rating: Private Airplane Single Engine Land

Oh my!
That does not look good either!

Flight 175:
MICHAEL ROBERT HORROCKS: Co-pilot
6 RIDDLEWOOD DR
MEDIA PA 19063
NOT LISTED on most databases.
POSSIBLE ALIAS WHO WAS STILL ALIVE.
CHARLES MICHAEL HORROCKS
345 E Rich Ln
Blackfoot, ID 83221
Region: NM
Medical Class: Third
Medical Date: 10/2001 UPDATED TO 10/2003
Medical Expiration Date: 10/2003 UPDATED TO 10/2005
Certificate Type(s): Pilot Pilot
Certificate Level: Private

Come to think of it,
if this is what the other co-pilots are like,
I now want to fly with Mr. Charlebois.

I should tell you,
in no uncertain terms,
that
since the year 2000,
any airman who does not want his particulars known,
has had the right to ask that his information be withheld from the general viewing public.

I should also tell you that
BEFORE the year 2000,
ALL AIRMAN RECORDS WERE MANDATORY
and they were ALL WITHOUT EXCEPTION
placed in the public domain
where we can all gawk at them.

Since ALL of our pilots and co-pilots
were airmen BEFORE the year 2000
then much of their records,
is STILL in the public domain.

This being so,
it is MOST INTERESTING
to observe the almost complete dearth of information
pertaining to the credentials allegedly held by these men.

And we needs must investigate them,
because when all is said and done,
these are the men who flew the planes on that fateful day,
and the fact still remains that
ALL of them are apparently DEAD
whereas many of the "hijackers" are STILL ALIVE.

[RH]

Hijackers still alive?

There is no questiuon that the persons identified by the BBC article were anywhere near to the USA around 9/11 nor were they in any other sense involved with with the event in question.

[DulceDecorum]

37. And the lies about their involvement

are STILL making the rounds.

WHO were the real hijackers?
If any?

[RH]

38. Do some research.

There is hardly any room to doubt that a good number of them were at least as real as DulceDecorum.

You could perhaps begin with Mohammed Atta.

Do you have any reason to suppose that the Mohammed Atta in Portland and Boston on the morning of 9/11 was not the same as he previously in Hamburg etc.?

[DulceDecorum]

48. Tell THAT to the FBI

After all they DO claim to be able to find their collective way out of a paper bag.

Why do they STILL have pictures of people
who THEY THEMSELVES believe to be innocent
up on their website?

Oh silly me,
I am forgetting that
this is Robert Mueller's EFF BEE HI
we are discussing.

(CBS) A Boston case in which the FBI knowingly participated in a conspiracy to send an innocent man to prison for 32 years has so incensed the chairman of the House Committee on Government Reform that he has vowed to keep investigating the FBI for more such injustices.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/01/25/60minutes/main325595.shtml

[mac2]

69. FBI propaganda..

They still keep the information out there about who the terrorists were when they themselves admitted some of them were still alive and others had stolen identities. They could have been anyone from anywhere in the ME.

There's little proof that they were even on those planes on that day.

[DulceDecorum]

67. The Air Force called for a giant hologram of Allah to appear

Headquartered at Fort Bragg, N.C., the 4th Psychological Action Group is comprised of about 1,200 Airborne soldiers and is the only active psyops unit in the United States. Several dozen civilian analysts, many with Ph.Ds, augment the group as members of the Strategic Studies Detachment. Additionally, about 75 percent of the men and women in psyops are reservists, and the program draws upon the expertise they cultivate in a variety of fields.
In crafting persuasive messages to target populations, these personnel act as force multipliers, working to maximize the impact of combat troops. Sometimes they contract out their work, such as when DC comics, the publisher of Superman, was asked to create comics depicting the dangers of landmines for distribution in Bosnia. But in most cases the research, development, production and dissemination of psyops materials is handled inside the unit, with psyops soldiers acting as storytellers, multilingual radio announcers, printing press operators, and so on.
http://www.cbsnews.com/elements/2003/01/29/iraq/whoswho538410_0_1_person.shtml

Most recently in Iraq, emails were sent to Saddam Hussein's generals, urging them to defect. Baghdad temporarily shut down its Internet server in response to these electronic appeals. Other plans for the future might include digital morphing, in which sound and pictures would be altered to put words in enemy leaders' mouths or make them appear as though they are faltering. One idea that was reportedly investigated by the Air Force called for a giant hologram of Allah to appear before the Iraqis, who would be ordered by their God to turn on Saddam. Further use of the Internet is also being explored, but the prospect of creating psyops Web sites is complicated by the fact that the military is not allowed to target Americans, who might visit the sites.
http://www.cbsnews.com/elements/2003/01/29/iraq/whoswho538410_0_6_person.shtml

When psyops "products" are ready for deployment, they are often delivered by one of six EC-130E Commando Solo aircraft flown by the 193rd Special Operations Wing, Pennsylvania Air National Guard. The EC-130E is a converted cargo plane that is a broadcast studio in the sky, equipped with multi-directional transmitters, several antenna and a live microphone. It can broadcast radio or television, live or on tape, in the standard AM, FM, HF, TV, and military communications bands. Equipment on board also allows the communications crew to jam or manipulate outside broadcasts, enticing frustrated listeners to switch over to psyops programs that can be heard clearly.
The planes are also used for promotion, dropping leaflets that contain details on broadcasts and other psyops messages, to potential listeners. Sometimes, such as in the fight against the Taliban in Afghanistan, they'll even drop hand-cranked radios. In the Gulf War, the broadcast of "Iraq the Betrayed" by an EC-130 crew was said to have influenced more than 50 percent of Iraqi POWs to surrender.
http://www.cbsnews.com/elements/2003/01/29/iraq/whoswho538410_0_2_person.shtml

Your tax dollars at work.....

[RH]

28. Wrong

:spank:

This myth crops up over and over again.

The passport found in New York did not belong to Atta.

It belonged to Satam Al Suqami.

Atta's passport turned up elsewhere.

[Zhade]

68. Got a source for this?

NT!

[DulceDecorum]

53. Really?

N612UA Aircraft Registration Search Results
Registered Owner: United Air Lines Inc
Box 66100
Chicago, IL 60666
Region: Great lakes
Serial Number: 21873
Engine Manufacture/Model: P&W JT9D SERIES
Aircraft Manufacture/Model: Boeing 767-222
Registrant Type: Corporation
Year Manufactured: 1983
Last Action Date: September 18, 2001
Certificate Issue Date: January 18, 1984
Airworthiness Classfication: Standard: Transport
Type of Aircraft: Fixed wing multi engine
Type of Engine(s): Turbo jet
Database updated: 09-jan-2004 < Home > < New Search > Fri Feb 13 22:13:32 2004
http://www.lowapproach.com/cgi-bin/ACreg.cgi?612UA


N612UA Aircraft Registration Search Results
Registered Owner: United Air Lines Inc
Box 66100
Chicago, IL 60666
Region: Great lakes
Serial Number: 21873
Engine Manufacture/Model: P&W JT9D SERIES
Aircraft Manufacture/Model: Boeing 767-222
Registrant Type: Corporation
Year Manufactured: 1983
Last Action Date: September 18, 2001
Certificate Issue Date: January 18, 1984
Airworthiness Classfication: Standard: Transport
Type of Aircraft: Fixed wing multi engine
Type of Engine(s): Turbo jet
Database updated: 09-jan-2004 < Home > < New Search > Fri Feb 13 22:33:22 2004
http://www.lowapproach.com/cgi-bin/ACreg.cgi?612UA

Federal Aviation Regulations under Part 47 mandate that NO AIRCRAFT ELIGBLE FOR REGISTRATION (other than military & governmental) MAY BE OPERATED UNLESS THAT AIRCRAFT HAS BEEN REGISTERED with the FAA Aircraft Registry in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, and the aircraft is carrying its permanent or temporary registration certificate on board.
http://www.omnijet.com/topics/registration.htm

So what was that
you were saying about the planes having crashed?

Looks like those two jetliners
are doing just as well as the nine "hijackers"
who did not suffer even one single solitary bruise on September 11, 2001.

[arcane1]

12. I'm still waiting to see who bought those put options

how f*cking hard can that BE?? :shrug:

[Bolo Boffin]

23. This again?

I wrote to the DOT, and was told that AA didn't submit the flight information for those two flights, and on this late date, they had no plans to get that information from American.

Seeing a conspiracy in this harmless fact is the height of darkweave.

[DulceDecorum]

25. And I wrote

to Santa Claus and he promised me a pony.
But now, on this late date, he says he has no plans to deliver the animal.
Seeing fraud in this harmless fact is the acme of darkweave.

[Bolo Boffin]

27. Well, thanks for playing, Dulce

I think a song is in order here:

If Santa passes by my stocking
I promise not to mind a lot
The only thing I want for Christmas
Is just to keep the things I’ve got

A pair of loving arms around me
A garden of forget-me-nots
The only thing I want for Christmas
Is just to keep the things that I’ve got.

A friend or two, a peaceful sky of blue
A place to hang my hat when work of day is through

If Santa passes by my chimney
I’ll still be happy, like as not
The only I want for Christmas
Is just to keep the things I’ve got.

[LARED]

36. He has no plans to deliver the animal.

Were you a good girl this year? Maybe that's why you didn't get what you wanted. You can't hide from Santa's ever watchful eye. Plus them elves never cut anyone some slack.

[RH]

29. Oh dear Oh dear.

This tinfoil nonsense has already been thrashed to death.

Check the DU archive.

See Hunt What Boeing?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=125&topic_id=4052&mesg_id=4052

A reply from BTS was copied on.

Flight 77 was a regular flight out of Dulles, it had been scheduled to fly every day, weekdays and weekends since the online database began.

So try, please, a bit of common sense: Is there then any possible reason why it would not have been scheduled to fly on 9/11/01?

[DulceDecorum]

49. Yes

Miss Cleo told it not to.
And she is a certified psychic.

Flights get cancelled for a myriad of reasons.
And when they do NOT depart from the airport, this fact is noted and recorded on the BTS database.

[DU GrovelBot]

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[mac2]

72. Yes...

The difference was that the airport security company in Boston (think that was it) had a Neil Bush connection.

American Airlines invested in the stock market huge sums of money prior to 9/11...to go down!

My spouse had to fly AA for a business training trip to Vegas. The tag on the bag had a SSS on it before they went through the security machines. Pulled aside and strip searched...every little part of both.

My relatives are driving long distances so they don't have to go through this harassment. We're no terrorists.

Yet..knives and guns still get through. Flights from Europe turned back even though they have passenger lists well ahead of time...searched at the airport, etc. There's a lot of bull crap going on here!

And...now tax payers support airport security employees while the security companies rake in the dollars. It's about intimidation, fear, and profit making. The airline CEOs have to be involved.

It's a Bush scam like all the other things going on since he took power. A coup to rob us blind and destroy our democracy. They hate it.

[Abe Linkman]

73. mac2 Telling it like it is. Straight Ahead.

You are right on the money, in my opinion. Making too much good sense. I'm guessing that you and/or your relatives live in the Western part of the United Snakes. Thanks for your input.