No tin foil hat here.

[cdb]

I expect these students to be "disappeared" soon.

Excellent movie regarding 911 as justification for patriot act and rights violations, war, etc..

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5137581991288263801&q=loose+change

[tech3149]

1. save your own copy of this

It will be down the memory hole soon.

[helderheid]

54. will do

[Benfea]

2. Let me guess. This is yet another conspiracy theory about 9/11?

Is it one of the demolition theories? Those are really funny.

[Atman]

3. Benfea, I suggest you watch it.

It's not three-minute flash animation. A full, 1 1/2 long investigative reporte with 3-D animations, government documents, etc. The most comprehensive of its sort I'v ever seen.

Brush it off at your peril. At OUR peril. But please watch it and decide AFTERWARDS, not before.

[Benfea]

4. I've seen a million of these things already.

And frankly, they're not much different from people who are convinced the aliens who kidnapped Elvis will someday bring his brain back in a jar.

They apply extreme skepticism to "the official version" (skepticism that rarely holds up under examination), yet fail to apply the faintest bit of skepticism to their own alternate theories. Furthermore, if you try to get into a "debate" with them, they're right no matter what. If you dare to disagree with them, then that means you're either part of the conspiracy or have been duped by the conspiracy. When you point out gaping flaws in their facts or theories, they simply ignore your questions and go back to posting links (the same links everyone's seen already) to these wacko web sites while proclaiming "See for yourself! See for yourself!"

So what's the point of discussing any of this with people like you? You're as impervious to logic and facts as the most rabid Christian Republican fundamentalist extremist. I would accomplish more trying to explain particle physics to my 2 year old nephew.

[The Doctor.]

7. With ya...

So you at least know what a real demolition looks like.
So sick of all these people who don't.

Take this for example;


You seem pretty bright, I'll bet you can even guess what kind of demolition that is.

[Benfea]

11. It's not a demolition at all.

I'm not getting sucked into another one of these pointless arguments that feel exactly like arguing with a Republican.

[The Doctor.]

14. LOL... That's NOT a demolition?

If you don't want to get "sucked in", then why the hell did you even post here?

Enjoy your stay.

[Benfea]

29. "You don't agree with me, therefore you have been duped by the conspiracy"

Thanks for proving my point.

[Atman]

35. Thanks for proving my point.

"You don't agree with me, therefore you have been duped by the conspiracy"

Yes. That's what you're doing exactly!

[The Doctor.]

41. And yet you believe in Election Fraud?

What kind of wacky conspiracy nutjob are you?

[we can do it]

71. or Duped by the Conspiracy Theory Spoon Fed By Our Always Honest Gov't?

[The Doctor.]

23. Lemme guess, you're one of those

'Election frawd' conspiracy nuts...

[pauldp]

93. What about it does not look like a demolition?

Simple question. Can you answer?

[Name removed]

8. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Atman]

10. "if you try to get into a "debate" with them, they're right no matter what

Kind of like what you're doing here?

I've seen a million of these things, too. This one IS different, and DOES have new stuff I hadn't seen. I thought the FEMA training manuals with the WTC in crosshairs were pretty interesting. These guys appear to be prepared for doubters. I think you'd be hard pressed to point out too many flaws. This isn't a kids' Flash project, as I said before. It is a very thorough, well researched investigative report, unlike any I've seen before.

And quite frankly, I find your condecending tone, while preaching about intolerance and how stupid everyone else but you is, to be pretty disgusting.

"So what's the point of discussing any of this with people like you?"

Indeed. The kettle has been called black by far better pots than you, chump.

[hang a left]

18. Yeah!!!

What you said.

[The Doctor.]

25. I'm consistently amused

That people who've spent no real time looking at the data can 'poo-poo' those who have.

And anyone who can look at the building 7 footage and not conclude it's a controlled demolition is either a liar or a complete moron.

I nabbed so many posters on other sites with that (4 to date). I guess this guy was exposed to it before. Too bad, everyone who's never seen building 7 footage will agree it's a demolition unless they know they're being set up.

[Clark2008]

58. Bravo!!

Hell, I think that anyone who watches the two towers fall and sees the flashes of fire after all the plane-crash fires had burned out and NOT conclude that those were controlled demolitions is also either a liar or a complete moron.

It's so obvious that I said it the very second it happened as I was watching it live. In fact, I thought that maybe the building was fitted with explosives to do that very thing to keep the building from falling over sideways and injuring a hell of a lot more people. Then the government trys to tell me that a fire, that was nearly burned out, got hot enough to molten steel in this case when it had never, ever done it in any other case, ever? The government is the conspiracy theorist here.

[Atman]

69. It's as good as their explanation that kerosene vaporized titanium

The engines of the "plane" that hit the Pentagon were made of Titanium. The movie points out the melting point of Titanium and the heat generation from a mass burn of kerosene for a sustained period of time (40 minutes, I believe), and points out the physical, scientific impossibility of the Pentagon plane being completely, 100% vaporized on impact. It simply cannot happen. Yet, that is the official government explanation. The heat vaporized titanium, leaving NO TRACE of the plane. Yet it didn't singe the grass, nor burn the cable spools outside, or anything like that. I also hadn't scene the footage of the small hole in the Pentagon, only the aftermath, after the final collapes. It convinced me...it simply is not possible a large airliner hit the Pentagon. No explanation the governent has offered supports this ludicrous theory. The light poles downed was pretty interesting, too. Lots in this film I haven't seen before!

[we can do it]

74. Don't You Know The Official Conspiracy Theory Makes So Much More Sense

They want us to believe that the same fuel used daily in the jet engines vaporized the plane in this instance. Funny, that any other plane crash actually has a plane visible afterwords.

And never in history has a steel framed building been brought down by fire - but some how it happened 3 times on 9/11.

[Mnemosyne]

111. I think you were on the right track back then Clark.

I've always figured it was done to save the insurance companies the cost of paying out more than necessary with damage to surrounding buildings.

I doubt they cared about more injuries much. :grr:

Hey, who owns the closest buildings? Is this a reasonable question? Would someone get sent to Gitmo trying to research to find out? Doesn't it suck that I even have to think such a thing in this country?

Time to meditate before they drive me totally nuts!:hi:

In peace and hope,
V

[Benfea]

28. Boo hoo.

When are the aliens bringing back Jimmy Hoffa's shoes?

I think it's entirely possible that the Bush administration deliberately didn't do all they could to stop the 9/11 hijackers. After all, the Air Force responded to the Paine Stuart thing within minutes, while three hijacked planes did U-turns in the sky for hours with no Air Force response. We know that PNAC was looking for "the next Pearl Harbor." It's circumstantial evidence, but it's possible.

But anything going beyond that is really straining credulity.

How easy do you think it is to prepare a building for implosive demolition? Have you ever seen what they have to do to buildings before one of those demolitions happen? You can't just park a truck full of explosives next to a load-bearing column (as Osama discovered to his chagrin). You need an army of construction workers tearing down walls, drilling holes, pre-weakening load-bearing members, embedding explosives all over the place, and this stuff has to be done to nearly every floor, and all this stuff takes weeks. Do you honestly expect me to believe that an army of construction workers could completely gut the insides of the WTC for weeks, making huge noise and a huge mess in the process without a single one of those thousands of office workers getting suspicious or asking questions?

We're supposed to believe something as logic-defying as that because "cell phones don't work in planes" (they do).

That's just one concern.

Bah. I let you suck me into this nonsense. Forget I said anything. Tell the aliens to say "Hi" to Elvis for me, will you?

[Atman]

34. "When are the aliens bringing back Jimmy Hoffa's shoes?"

This is republican debating tactic 101. Ridicule and hyperbole in an attempt to lessen the seriousness of the charges.

No one, not one person here except you, mentioned aliens and Jimmy Hoffa.

"How easy do you think it is to prepare a building for implosive demolition?"

See, I knew it. You haven't done the research you claim you have.

Nice knowing you. You're not long for this place if you've just come in to call everybody stupid.

[Benfea]

37. OK, last response

How could the conspirators (who are the same incompetents who brought us the Iraq occupation and the Katrina response) have done this to the inside of the WTC without any of the thousands of office workers already in the building noticing?

This is my last post in this thread. I'm done with debating wackos, because I've done too much of it on other boards, and I've given up explaining these things to people like you for the same reasons I've given up on explaining evolution to fundamentalist Republicans.

[Atman]

39. I thought you said you did your research?

Obviously, not nearly enough. Or else you'd know how. It's all there. Just do the research, and stop putting blind faith in the benevolence of your fearless leader.

[Bouvet_Island]

112. Benfea

"How could the conspirators (who are the same incompetents who brought us the Iraq occupation and the Katrina response) have done this to the inside of the WTC without any of the thousands of office workers already in the building noticing?"

Then what you are saying that it is possible to accomplish exactly the same, almost better without any such preparation but putting a hole in one of the load bearing structures and heating that area.

With drawings and expertize and years of planning, why couldn't someone decide that this building would only need a little help here and there to come down?

Your argument is actually of exactly the same construction as the bad part of this forum, you hold up both ignorance, speculation, personal attacks and arrogance as good debate technique. Who learnt you this?

I frankly don't know what happened but I doubt you even know any particle physics, there is just nothing scientific about a fella that firmly believes he doesn't have to read a text before discussing it.

Your generalisation are not much different from blaiming "muslims" for 9/11, if you believe in allah you believe jews control all media and that holocaust is fake etc. Not all those videos are the same, one of the good ones was made by European fellas and had former goverment members analyze the events based on only official sources, and it is just really clear that the bush administration version of events doesn't even work within their own official reports. The 9/11 report says in plain text that it isn't very interesting where the operation got its funding.

Some of your observations about the methods of the "truth movement" though are probably correct, but I haven't seen a single ufo reference in any 9-11 related page or thread here even some people have a little high expectations of the current state of technology. You on the other hand have to little, to sum it up:

Go to moon - > easy
make building fall down with explosives, not fall over and place them discreetely - > impossible.

I don't have the truth, but you are not making a very good case for your version that seems to be fact challenged.

[Trevelyan]

45. Marvin Bush was the "Security" for the WTC for a year before 911 and

the people who worked there reported months of strange alarms,fire drills etc. http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2005/01/309590.shtml Whenever there is an tragedy a bush is there, why?

Jeb, Marvin & Neil - 3 War Profiteering Bush Brothers, thanks to 9-11 and media silence author: Evelyn Pringle

lots of details tying in a more personal motivation for the Bush clan for letting 9-11 happen and/or creating it--because the Bush clan is presently making lots of money privately off 9-11 as war profiteers. and if you want to know links between the Bush clan profiteering in China, and China's political elites, read this as well.

typically don't believe these conspiracy theories, either, but fact sometimes is stranger than fiction.Just look at Bohemian Grove, Skull & Bones and the grip of Secret Societies on world politics. Just look at the Carlyle Group, with both Bush and Bin Laden as members, and wonder why he hasn't been caught. Just look at WTC Building 7 and how it collapsed. And read what prominent scientists, including a Physics Professor at Brigham Young University, say about the impossibility of WTC 1 and 2 falling as they did as a result of a plane. And wonder why our Government didn't allow third parties to test the debris for the presence of Thermite. They could have ended any speculation right then and there, but instead they transported the debris immediately to China.

Seeing how this Administration will lie and attack a country that in no way threatened us nor our interests, I believe they are capable of anything.

'All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent' -Thomas Jefferson
http://www.costofwar.com/
http://www.fallenheroesmemorial.com/index.html
http://www.peacefultomorrows.org/
---
http://www.leftgatekeepers.com/articles/TranscriptOfKPFK%27sSonaliInterviewRuppert&Corn61302.htm

Now, CIA. we have clear statements from, let's say, Colleen Rawley (sp?), the FBI agent from Minneapolis, and from Robert Wright (sp?), who had a press conference in Washington, that there were key FBI personnel who obstructed, thwarted,blocked, intimidated, harassed, threatened. These are not words of negligence. These are not words of passive actions arising from incompetence, let's say. These are words of malicious, deliberate actions. And there is a very clear-cut pattern of that to show that the U.S. Government effectively blocked the right information from getting into the right hands, and it did not involve many, many people. The FBI case clearly demonstrates this, that Colleen Rawley specifically refers to only one supervisory special agent in Washington who was blocking many terrorist investigations, and this man who would have been criminally negligent in many cases, was promoted after 9-11.

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/essay.jsp?article=essayairdefense
Commissioner Richard ben-Veniste asked tough questions about the 30 minute gap between when the FAA determined Flight 77 had been hijacked and when it formally told this to NORAD. [C-SPAN

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

61. Oh for fuck's sake.

Marvin Bush was not "Security" for the WTC. He was on the board of directors of the corporation that ran some of the security services in the WTC. He didn't even work for the company. Not that this distinction will keep you from spreading your nonsense, I know.

[MakeItSo]

70. I like a sticker for facts! Stratetec's CEO was NOT *'s brother!!

JEEZUS. These people are friggin' idiots, aren't they? Marvin Bush was merely a PRINCIPAL of Securacom (now Stratesec), which provided electronic security for the World Trade Center, Dulles International Airport and United Airlines, according to public records!

It was George W's COUSIN Wirt D. Walker III who was chairman and CEO of Stratesec from 1999 to 2003!!

Big deal, a friggin' Bush cousin. Might has well have been a beggar in Bangladesh.

I'm with you, fellow patriot.

:banghead:

[Atman]

72. It is germane. Here is why

The security systems for #7 were completely shut down and inoperational for about a week immediately before the "crash." The security company, for which you do admit a Bush was a principal, supposedly was doing some work on the building. No cameras. No electronic locks. Nothing. For a week. Curiouser and curiouser. I get a kick out of people who bang their heads against a wall when yet another Bush family member turns up involved in one of these big Bush fiascos. It's always jut a coincidence, it seems. The Bush's just happen to be everywhere something bad happens. Always coincidence, of course.

Oh, btw, you say "BFD, a Bush cousin..." but you may forget, it just so happened to be a Bush cousin somehow running the election desk at Fox news, who called the Florida election for W, setting the dominoes in motion.

Just another curious coincidence, I know, I know. I'm just amazed that those Bush's show up wherever there is trouble. Like a reverse Superman...they don't come to fix it, they come to create it.

[MakeItSo]

75. forgot my sarcasm icon -- I'm with you, believe me

Never let the facts get in the way of a good story, especially when the story allows the government to trample over everything in its path.

[helderheid]

76. Well, duh! half of American's have the last name Bush... right??

:sarcasm:

[helderheid]

77. Marvin Bush

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marvin_Bush

[natrat]

87. i'm with you fellow patriot----wtf??????

[DemInDistress]

101. Trev..twas marvin bush who ordered the "bomb sniffing dogs"

out of the WTC 1 week before 911..twas Larry Silverstein who proudly stated,"we had so much damage and destruction around here today we decided to pull the building (WT7)" yes,911 was an inside job..It was also silverstein who after closing the 99 yr. lease had numerous drills within the WTC ordering the occupants out while explosive experts wired the elevator shafts and basements..yes,911 was an inside job.. and look at the response from POTUS,if ever there was guilt on a face well bush had it..and yes,911 was indeed an inside job.

just 2 theories exist..
1. arabs hijacked and crashed jets into the twin towers,the ensuing fires raged,melted steel beams and it collapsed,,highly improbable. or
2. the bush crime family with larry silverstein (ZIONIST) wired the WTC and all that was needed was cover like lets say, a jet crashed into them...

[HamdenRice]

48. Interesting contradiction in your reasoning ...

Controlled demolition would take:

"an army of construction workers tearing down walls, drilling holes, pre-weakening load-bearing members, embedding explosives all over the place, and this stuff has to be done to nearly every floor, and all this stuff takes weeks. "

In other words to bring a building down takes a huge amount of precisely placed damage, in the form of charges, to bring a building down within its own footprint, correct? According to you?

Yet building 7 fell for apparently no reason. There were minor fires on lower floors and some damage to the southwest corner. Building 7 was a block away from the twin towers, separated by a lower building from the debris of their collapse.

So how did a small fire and damage to the southwest corner accomplish what would have taken an army of construction workers to accomplish?

[Name removed]

92. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DemInDistress]

100. how e-z is it to prepare a building for demo..pretty e-z

according to CEO of Controlled Demolition INC. Mark Louizeaux give me 7 days and a team..lol
Do you accept the 911 report and all its flaws? WE dont...What are those 50 blasts I see on the North side of
WT7 and 7 more on the West side of WT7? Any plausible answer will do..

[dchill]

105. "deliberately didn't do all they could"

You are closer to the tinfoil than you think. Three buildings fall straight into their own footprints, only two having been hit by planes. ONE would defy reason - but three? That's demolition, man.

Have a nice denial!

[natrat]

12. yea the terrorists did it-every good murican knows that

and the terrorists shorted huge positions in the stock market,,,and it's the terrorists now gonna take our rights away and give our treasurey to the corporations and the terrorists---fuck that its the bush nazis---if that whole new orleans thing didnt wake you up to the darkness of these people then the terrorists done it like every good murican knows

[Atman]

27. What I was happy the producers included

Was a bit I've mentioned to others in the past, but is difficult to find sources for even via Google. Silverstein, the owner of the WTC, bought ANTI-TERRORISM insurance on the WTC just a week or two prior to the attack. And what did he immediately do after the attack? Sue for double his insurance. That's in here. Lot and lots of good stuff is in here. The 3D modeling was very good, and there was some incredible news footage and interviews with witness at the scene I had never scene. The the three different people who each saw an entirely different "thing" hit the Pentagon. And the analyzation and direct comparison of the debris, which completely contradicts the "official" explanation. Hell, I wish I could live in a happy fantasy land like that benfea guy. There's so much less to think about when you know your government is only looking out for your best interests all the time, and not their own.

[satya]

65. Link to a bit of info on Silverstein insurance:

http://web.archive.org/web/20030408125957/http://www.insurance-portal.com/swissre.htm

(The insurance-portal domain name is now expired).

Edited to add:

another version of the 2/6/03 insurance-letter from the archives:

http://web.archive.org/web/20031006191744/www.insurance-portal.com/020603.htm

[we can do it]

78. Those Damn Arabs with Box Cutters Outsmarted NORAD and the US Airforce

Amazing, isn't it....and somehow a passport was found unscathed a few blocks from the WTCs.

[Atman]

79. And don't forget the instant identifications of the "terrists"

Vaporized, every one. Flying under assumed names and false passports. But we had a positive ID of every one of them for the morning papers. And Atta's passport, apparently made of something stronger than titanium.

[we can do it]

91. And Some of Them Are Still Alive In Other Countries

And that plane that was vaporizing was able to pierce three rings of the pentagon. And the Secret Service allowed Booshie to finish a widely publicized photo op instead of wisking him off to a safe location (not to mention possibly endangering tose kids he didn't want to upset).

:crazy:

[SpiralHawk]

40. What's the point of examining the evidence and asking questions?

Let's all just shut up, sit down, eat our soma and bask in the loving embrace of Big BushCo.

Is this how you think democracy ought to work, Benfea?

Sorry, that's not my cup of kool aid.

[Laurab]

62. Ok, so you don't agree with the demolition stuff....

that's only one small part though. My question to you is: why did the current administration do everything in their power to block any kind of investigation into 9/11? Why did they not assist in any way possible to find out what happened? There are so many other little questions to be answered - us wacky conspiracy theorists are multi-taskers - at least I am, and frankly, the demolition theories are only one teeny tiny part of all the odd things surrounding 9/11. There is SO much more. I, for one would like to hear a "logical" explanation for that, and if you can provide one, I'd appreciate it.

Also, why do you resort to personal attacks on the people who ask you just to watch something? I've noticed that about the people who are so quick to jump on us "wackos".

Enjoy your stay, indeed.

[Christophera]

98. Wow! Major Deposit Of Distortions There Fella' - Got Evidence?

This message utilizes reference to what are called "cognitive distortions", by behavioral psychologists. They are intended to be applied to a person distorting their own reasoning to justify their behaviors or beliefs. In this case, the phenomena leads to a behavior where an individuals distortions are applied to socialization in an effort to induce others to distort in response to any cognitive dissonance.

What Benfea says is certainly not altogether untrue, but is applied to create an over all general, mental filter that is damaging to those who reasonably seek logical explanations for what happened on 9-11. Perspective must be created.

Below we have a typical “over generalization”.

2. Over generalization: Single event is viewed as continuous.

Benfea

4. I've seen a million of these things already.

The following uses a special set of labels in this routine of ridicule.

10. Labeling: Instead of understanding errors over generalization is applied.

There is also an element of minimizing.

4. Minimizing: Perceiving one or opposite experiences (positive or negative) as absolute and maintaining singularity of belief to one or the other.

Benfea

And frankly, they're not much different from people who are convinced the aliens who kidnapped Elvis will someday bring his brain back in a jar.

Below a double generalization and minimization inside an qualified “all or nothing” statement.

1. All or nothing thinking: Things are placed in black or white categories.

Benfea

They apply extreme skepticism to "the official version" (skepticism that rarely holds up under examination), yet fail to apply the faintest bit of skepticism to their own alternate theories.

The below has elements of 1, 2, 4, 10 and “entitlement”

12. Entitlement: Believing that you deserve things you have not earned.

Benfea

Furthermore, if you try to get into a "debate" with them, they're right no matter what. If you dare to disagree with them, then that means you're either part of the conspiracy or have been duped by the conspiracy. When you point out gaping flaws in their facts or theories, they simply ignore your questions and go back to posting links (the same links everyone's seen already) to these wacko web sites while proclaiming "See for yourself! See for yourself!"

The end of this rant wields the catastrophe (1 & 4) of all the unpleasant factions, using the child without respecting the childs future.

7. Catastrophizing: Exaggerated importance of specific failures of others and successes of self.

Benfea

So what's the point of discussing any of this with people like you? You're as impervious to logic and facts as the most rabid Christian Republican fundamentalist extremist. I would accomplish more trying to explain particle physics to my 2 year old nephew.

You and the government have not explained free fall and total pulverization, the discussion is reasonably open because due process was violated in 3,000 capitol crimes, and it is destroying the principles of our republic while subverting our democracy.

And you really should have some evidence or links or something to substanciate the worst of "people like me" as you see them.

Try my site first.

http://algoxy.com/psych/9-11scenario.html

Just so you realize that I do work with evidence, here is an explosion, not very different from the series of explosions that traveled down the towers height. Perhaps a little larger, a couple of hundred feet higher than some images showing the tower at higher elevations.



Only reason WITH evidence is acceptable.

[hang a left]

15. .....

[helderheid]

5. you'll want to see this too:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x307296

[Benfea]

9. The Dutch documentary about the Carlyle Group?

That's the real deal. I don't understand while people are so determined to make up wild stories about explosive demolitions of the WTC and the Pentagon when we have very real concerns with very real groups like the Carlyle Group and Haliburton raping the national treasury and the PNAC leading the nation over a cliff in an attempt to validate some very wacko political theories.

[helderheid]

16. actually, this is a different Dutch documentary - it's just 20 minutes

long and discusses PNAC - it has English subtitles when Dutch and German are being spoken. It talks extensively about 9/11.

[hang a left]

22. Your attempt at redeeming yourself and recovering

Is weak.

[Atman]

30. Why are all the things you mention mutually exclusive?

Why can't I have very real concerns about PNAC and Carlyle and the WTC/Pentagon events? In fact, they seem to have lots of interesting intersections.

[MakeItSo]

32. The important thing the Truth Movement is doing isn't MAKING UP theories

The most important thing the Truth Movement is doing is pointing out that, beyond a reasonable doubt, based on a rational analysis of the available evidence, YOUR GOVERNMENT IS LYING TO YOU about attacks that are used to justify virtually every important domestic and international policy in the United States today.

Certainly you have a right to look the other way. Denial can even be healthy sometimes. But to slander these arguments and facts with retorts completely devoid of any substance at all makes one's motives automatically suspect.

[we can do it]

94. And That Is THE POINT To All Of This - Everything They Do Invokes 9/11

That should make us question their explanations if nothing else.
One more question - if a plane did hit the Pentagon, why won't they show the video?

[CJCRANE]

99. I always think Rove

must really hate America - to know that 9/11 could've been prevented but then to repeatedly verbally hit his opponents over the head with it at every opportunity that Repubs are the only ones that can keep America safe - that's nasty.

[we can do it]

113. They Act Like We Work For Them - Not the Other Way Around

I know what's right for this country - yeah right.

[helderheid]

6. I'll never get why people are so aggressively close minded.

[Greyhound]

13. The surest way to evoke violence is to challenge their fundamental beliefs

If they were to admit the possibility of this type of act, it would require them to examine all of the assumptions they have built their world-view upon. Pretty scary stuff for most. Kind of like giving up the belief in an omnipotent daddy that will fix or forgive you for all of your misdeeds.

[MakeItSo]

64. being faced with good evidence that everything you stand for is a lie

... is pretty discombobulating, I imagine. For those of us who never drank the Kool-aid in the first place, it's probably akin to our feelings about democracy in America when the exit polls showed Kerry clearly won in 2004 but ended up losing instead (for some reason or another).

[Atman]

68. Touché

Well said. Pretty much how I feel now, finding out the country I grew up in is no longer really there.

[helderheid]

73. I had just returned home to the States the previous month. It was like

the rug was ripped out from under me. This video is mind blowing.

[DemInDistress]

104. atman..I read all your posts in this thread and a ^5 to you..

911 was indeed an inside job. The bush crime family, larry silverstein and most likely mossad are involved here. From all that I viewed and read the whitehouse,pentagon and defense contractors are the big winners,not to forget halliburton and Big Oil..
The laundry list of beneficiaries all seem to point to America,but I wont deny chalabi has a role..its great to read your insightful posts on the 911 attacks and I often ask 911 debunker's if their "LARED" the Sept.11 forum official 911 debunker..
glad your on our side...

DEM

[MrSammo1]

108. Kind of like giving up the belief in an omnipotent daddy that will fix or

That says it all!

[goclark]

19. I don't get it ~ you would think

that they were anointed by GW Bush to make sure that no thoughts, other than those that the MSM approves make sense.

All I know is, NOTHING that GW says MAKES SENSE and yet we hold them up as the gospel.

Everything that GW wants me to believe about 911, I DON'T BELIEVE.

Now, let's let the light shine on some opinions that would differ from Georgie Boys.

[trotsky]

31. Plenty of us can view G.W. Bush as a completely illegitimate jackass

and yet still not buy into all the 9/11 conspiracy theories.

That doesn't make us freepers - just people who demand facts.

[MakeItSo]

36. You don't demand facts from your government

You are trusting the government on blind faith, even though such mainstream magazines as Harper's have declared the official 911 commission report to be a quote "White wash" unquote.

Please READ the facts before making such sweeping judgements. The FACTS don't support your assertion.

[trotsky]

43. Fuck your generalizations.

What makes you think I "trust the government on blind faith"? Seems to me you're making your OWN sweeping judgments - on anyone who doesn't happen to buy into whatever theories you're supporting. Demonize those who disagree - by portraying them as retarded stooges who accept whatever the big bad government tells them! Sheesh.

[Atman]

44. Did you watch this movie?

And if not, why not? You seem to want to discuss its contents. Do you KNOW its contents? Or just THINK you do. Seeing as it is nearly 90 minutes long, you really haven't had time to view the whole think yet, have you. We'd be happy to hear what you had to say after watching it.

[trotsky]

46. I can't watch it here at work.

I will indeed give it a look at home, to see if there is any new information.

Look, I completely buy into how the * admin has used 9/11 to justify insane power grabs and illegal wars. I will also go so far as to say that 9/11 happened primarily because Bushco was horrifically incompetent, and threw out all the anti-terrorism work the Clinton admin had set on their desks for them. I believe that the neocons view 9/11 as a "happy accident". I do not believe they orchestrated it themselves.

[Atman]

49. Great.

Since you say you haven't seen it yet, maybe you should forego the commentary until afterwards. Otherwise, you're only speculating on what you THINK is in the movie. You say you don't believe it was orchestrated...watch the movie, and come up with some better explanations for what you'll see. I'd sincerely love to hear your comments on the evidence AFTER you've seen the evidence.

[trotsky]

50. What, you're saying all the people raving about it

have all watched it in the same time frame you say it's impossible for me to have?

:eyes:

[Atman]

51. No, I'm not saying that.

I don't know who watched how much of it. I managed to leave it on, streaming, and caught virtually all of it, so I know it can be done. You, by your own admission, saw NONE of it. So, please don't try to change this to a discussion about how long it took everyone to view the movie. It's irrelevent, because you've seen none of it, and I was addressing you.

[trotsky]

52. You know what's funny?

I started in on this thread not even commenting about the movie, but about the attitude that people like yourself were taking towards others. Attacking them, insulting them, accusing them of being freepers. Interesting how you have no defense of that, and so instead have to launch into a NEW attack that simply because I haven't watched this film I have no right to make any sort of comments on this thread.

Disgusting.

[Atman]

55. Okay, time for a reality check.

"People like me?" I didn't attack you, insult you, and especially, I called NO ONE a freeper in this or any other thread. Don't play that shit with me.

And you are clearly on the defensive, because I did NOT attack you. I asked -- asked -- if you had seen the film. And I suggested that you watch it FIRST before condemning it, or launching your own attacks on "people like me" who HAVE seen it, and DO know what is in it.

That's an attack? Please. Let's get back on track here. I've no problem with you...perhaps the "inflection" filter on your browser isn't working!

[trotsky]

83. Please note

I never said that YOU called someone a freeper. Spare me your righteous indignation.

But you see, I never condemned the film. I condemned the judgmental attitudes and baseless accusations that people like you were making. They are plainly on display for all to see.

[MakeItSo]

60. pro-jec-tion [n.] The attribution of one's own attitudes, feelings, o

e.g. "I started in on this thread...about the attitude that people like yourself were taking towards others. Attacking them ... Fuck your generalizations..."

[trotsky]

84. Yep

The classic retort.

[we can do it]

95. I Watched It A Couple Nights Before This Was Posted

[MakeItSo]

66. Without subpena power, no theory will definitively be proven to be true

Our knowledge progresses by finding some things to be false.

The government's account is false.

[Clark2008]

63. I was were you are last week.

I've been doing a bit of research and I'm becoming more MIHOP than LIHOP.

And, the research I've been doing involves a lot of remembering from mine own eyes, too.

Please, just keep and open mind, research the facts AND the websites of the alleged "conspiracy theorists." Some are awful and lame, but there are a few - mostly run by family members of those who perished - that provide some real, researched information.

[Atman]

67. I have two full video tapes of the news coverage on 9/11

I've never looked at them since. I was watching the Today Show at the time, when Matt Lauer cut in that there was apparently a small plane that crashed into the WTC. I thought something big was happening, and for some reason I jacked a blank tape into the VCR, switched to CNN (remember when CNN used to do news?), set it to 6hr record, and just taped everything that aired.

Some of the stuff in this movie is from news reports. Fox news reports, ironically enough. Eye witnesses and FOX REPORTERS on air, saying something was screwy at the Pentagon. I wonder what hidden gems are on those tapes of mine?

[CJCRANE]

102. The "Happy Accident"

or "Lucky Accident" theory seems to be the predominant mainstream viewpoint.

Everything the neocons ever wanted just fell into their laps as if by magic as a result of their incompetence.

[we can do it]

114. These Guys Are Just Lucky! Not Devious

9/11 What Luck!!!
NORAD/Airforce stand down, a few "inept Arabs" with boxcutters overcome passengers and crew on not one but four planes fly around about an hour - then head right to their targets. Then 3 steel framed buildings fall (only 2 were hit by planes), supposedly due to a brief fire (this has never happened before or after anywhere). The pResident continues on with his photo op while all this is going on.....
Electronic voting machines all errors favor boosh yet another miracle.

What luck indeed....

[helderheid]

47. this reminds me of the right wingers going nuts about MM's F 9/11 when

they never even bothered to watch it.

[MakeItSo]

59. I see, so you DON'T believe the official account of 9-11

It logically follows, then, that you agree that another criminal conspiracy took place that day. Unless you think one guy did it all by himself.

[MrSammo1]

109. your OWN sweeping judgments

Could just be the perception problem that most of the population suffers from?

Do you believe in miracles?

Do you live your life on the notion that anything is possible and that anything can happen?

Do you believe the Earth is 6,000 years old?

[helderheid]

38. if you demand facts, watch this film. It's full of them.

[we can do it]

97. Remember, We Are On the Same Side Here, Please Consider the Evidence

....It is presented thoughtfully.

I demand to know facts on a lot of things such as, why do we trust exit polls in other countries - but not here?
Why did all the computer voting errors in the 2004 favor boosh?
Why did our Air Force stand down on 9/11?
Why was booshie allowed to remain at a grade school while our country was under attack?
Why was the evidence shipped off ASAP to China to be recycled?
Why were the Bin Ladins allowed to leave the country without being questioned when all air traffic was grounded?
Why did Condi Rice call Willie Brown on Sept. 10th and tell him to cancel his flight?

[MakeItSo]

33. Either the cognitive dissonance is overwhelming to them

or they have hidden agendas.

[dchill]

"aggressively close minded"...

Yes. Frequently, we refer to their usual titles "Conservatives" and "Republicans" - commonly known as "Freepers."

[MrSammo1]

110. or willfully ignorant......

applies to Regressives/Greedists. Ditto heads! I would mention Monkey Minds......but it's not fair to the monkeys.

[we can do it]

115. I Have Become Fashionably Dumb.....

[helderheid]

17. wow, this is incredible! Lots and lots of MSM pulled together in this too!

[liberal N proud]

20. Reinforces other things I have seen concerning 9/11

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

21. This is an Excellent film and it is amazing that it is a Google Video!Wow!

[dogday]

24. This was great - Thanks so much

[helderheid]

26. It still gives me chills watching those planes hit the towers. What a God

awful day.

[helderheid]

42. amazing amazing amazing amazing.

[Straight Shooter]

53. Many excellent references to contradict the official "story"

Certainly one of the most compelling videos I've seen yet. No burns on the Pentagon lawn. No debris sufficient to uphold the claim. I have to admit I was shocked to learn that the pilot of the Boeing which crashed into the Pentagon was also, one year prior, involved in understanding how an attack on the Pentagon with a Boeing could take place. That's just downright creepy. There are no coincidences in life that come so close to such irony, without requiring further scrutiny.

I was also impressed with the Maryland flight instructor school operator. The entire time, almost, he had a half-smile during the interview as if to say, "I know something but cannot say it." Didn't really look at the camera, either. Sure would like to be a wall on the fly of his office when he's talking to himself about September 11 and the hijacker who "flew" the Boeing into the Pentagon.

Why is it that people can create fact-based videos which contradict the official story, but no one has yet to create a convincing video that supports the official story, including eyewitness accounts and explanations of how the forensic evidence defies physics and logic. Makes you wonder ...

[Atman]

57. Why, indeed...

"Why is it that people can create fact-based videos which contradict the official story, but no one has yet to create a convincing video that supports the official story, including eyewitness accounts and explanations of how the forensic evidence defies physics and logic."


Spot on. Similar to the election-theft issue. I have mountains of similar "proof" of a stolen election in 2004, as do many of us. I continually butt heads with a guy who thinks dems simply are spoiled sports and sore losers, and yet, when I ask him for some PROOF that the vote count was accurate, anything to contradict the mountains of proof I have, he simply says "Bush is in the White House now. What more proof do you need? If he committed a crime, he'd have been indicted by now."

There are a lot of Political Pollyannas still out there.

(Oh, and I agree with that part about the Boeing pilot...that just about knocked me out of my chair!)

[Benfea]

90. Try doing some research and collecting a few facts.

That's your argument? That people who care about the truth aren't getting their information from fly-by-night web sites?

When these "fact-based videos" are examined, they turn out to be full of misleading information, bad logic and out right lies (e.g. "cell phones don't work on airplanes").

I'm sick of dealing with you people and your demented fantasies. Why don't you go look at an argument by people smarter than either of us on a similar topic? You can find many similar arguments on that same board, and most of the "fact-based videos" turn out to be full of contradictory arguments and lies.

The "evidence" CTs propose never fit the facts, and detract the debate from the things we should be talking about (e.g. Haliburton and the Carlyle Group).

[Clark2008]

56. Thanks.

This will help in some research I'm doing.

[helderheid]

80. is this still on the greatest page?

My only complaint about DU. "Disappearing" these threads.

[Atman]

81. They have to keep it in the realm of Crazy Conspiracy Theories

I wonder though, at what point does the overwhelming evidence make this no longer a crazy conspiracy theory? But I gotta admit, this was about the longest I've ever seen a 9/11 thread go before being banished to the attic.

[helderheid]

82. yes, I think the title was just vague enough. :)

[Blue Belle]

85. The "official" 9/11 story is a crazy conspiracy theory...

it has more holes in it than the "Magic Bullet" theory. I can't believe that the public would just accept the government's explaination and just believe that there are numerous events that happened that day which were "one of a kind"/"exception to the rule" occurences.

[Sydnie]

86. It finally made it there

I watched this film because you posted it. It scares the shit out of me to think that they think they got away with it. It explains the hubris they have been exhibiting the last 5 years better than any film I have seen on the subject.

It sure is a long way from the film just released by the A&E channel about flight 93.

I always wondered why there was never any hanger pictures of the plane debris from either PA or the Pentagon. We see those hanger pictures in so many other cases, why not this one? There must have been something there. Although, the one thing that is the same in the A&E production and this movie is the fact that both productions state that there is no debris of the plane and there is no explanation of why there is no debris.

thanks for this link. I may not sleep for awhile after watching it, but it begs to be watched.

[liberal N proud]

88. What more evidence do people need to see what has been done here!

The people of the United States have been duped and it was not by a 6' tall man wearing a towel on his head.
It was an chimp and his handlers who sit in a little white house.

[helderheid]

89. And they will hang on to their power at all costs - including fraudulent

elections.

[wildbilln864]

96. A side note.....

"American soldiers are dumb animals to be used in the furtherance of 'our' foreign policy. Today, America would be outraged if U.N. troops entered Los Angeles to restore order. Tomorrow they will be grateful! This is especially true if they were told that there were an outside threat from beyond, whether real or 'promulgated,' that threatened our very existence. It is then that all peoples of the world will plead to deliver them from this evil. The one thing every man fears is the unknown. When presented with this 'scenario', individual rights will be willingly relinquished for the guarantee of their well-being granted to them by the World Government. NAFTA is a major stepping stone to the New World Order."-Austrian Jewish Dr. Heinz "Henry" Kissinger
These are the words of the man first hired by president George W. Bush to head up the official probe of 9/11.

[DemInDistress]

103. a side side note...Frederick the Great had said, "if my soldiers

could think I would have no army" sort of like our soldiers,if they were allowed to think and not serve out of commitment dumsey also would have no army..

[file83]

106. The video's title is "Loose Change, 2nd Edition" -

It seems to be different so far from the first Edition of "9/11 Loose Change" that I have. I'm stoked to watch it.

[dchill]

107. Watch this movie.

It's the best 9/11 documentary I've seen, by far.