Chemtrails

[Egalitariat]

As I watch planes criss crossing the sky from my office, I'm wondering if (after all these years of Chemtrail theories) anyone has ever flown up there and grabbed a sample of these things for labaratory analysis.

Does anyone know of any such efforts? It seems like a chemistry lab at any university could put this to bed.

[patcox2]

1. While they are at it they could take a blood sample from Bigfoot

That way we could do DNA testing on bigfoot to see whether he is man or ape or some "missing link."

[BlueEyedSon]

2. Do you think that exhaust is significantly different than what comes

out of a jet on the runway?

If so, explain.

[Bridget Burke]

3. So--what the hell is a "Chemtrail"?

When I was little kid, the phrase was Vapor Trails. Living on a SAC base, I saw them a lot. Now the proper word is Contrail. Big planes leave vapor/condensation trails in the sky. Fresh contrails are distinct; atmospheric conditions disperse them--slowly, at times. For anyone not raised underground, this is a known phenomenon.

I've missed the Theory of Chemtrails, so far.

[patcox2]

6. Its a doozy, people believe government is drugging us

People believe the contrails are actually a supersecret government mind control program, and that the contrails are actually some kind of drug or chemical that makes people vote republican, or something like that.

Oh, and the anthrax attacks, thats the same thing, the government scared people into taking Cipro, which is actually a mind-control drug.

Come on, people, can't you see it?

[benburch]

8. Of course I can't see it!

I took Cipro.

[Bridget Burke]

20. Isn't the government controlling our minds through asthma inhalers?

Hey--the SciFi channel showed a bunch of Lone Gunmen episodes of the X-files yesterday. Don't blame me.

Wouldn't the non-existent Chemtrails be an inefficient way to drug us all? What about the reservoirs? Watch those Precious Bodily Fluids!

[Silverhair]

12. It is a nutcase conspiracy theory.

CTists claim that the gov't is spraying chemicals for (insert evil reason here)and that contrails are actually trails of the chemicals being sprayed.

No amount of logic or science can convince a CTist otherwise.

[WoodrowFan]

17. well then, if Chemtrials don't exist

then what are the Sylphs eating?

[Silverhair]

18. Mare's tails.

That is the folk name for a certain kind of cirrus cloud. Although named for their resemblence to earthly horse tails, these thin translucent clouds are said to be the favored foods of sylphs.

Since a normal contrail would contain traces of other chemicals from the additives used in petrofuels, these would give the contrails an off-taste that would be very distasteful to the delicate refined tastes favored by sylphs. They would detect the odor first so would be extremely unlike to eat a contrail, unless they were really hungry. To them it would be eeeewwwww. However, a contrail would only be likely to give one indigestion, not be fatal.

Chemtrails, if they existed, and a sylph were to smell one, he would really, really piss off a sylph, just as you would if someone farted into your nose.

Luckily, sylphs rarely come to the low altitudes close to earth where crop-dusters really do lay down clouds of chemicals, barely feet above the earth.

--------------
Note: The above is a playful product of my imagination, and not to be taken seriously. Most intelligent DUers will instantly recognize that, but some CTists might take me seriously, hence the disclaimer.

[Vinnie From Indy]

4. LOL!

What's up with the cow mutilations? How about those crop circles? Who put the "bomp" in the "bomp sha bomp sha bomp"?

[benburch]

5. There is no such thing as a "chemtrail"

What you are looking at is a normal aircraft condensation trail. You only think they are different from what you have seen all your life because your attention has been drawn to them. You never paid much attention before.

[FlaGranny]

7. I believe those "chemtrails"

are the result of atmospheric conditions. I had never seen chemtrails before, just a single one or maybe two trails in the sky at one. Then, one day last year, I saw them, criss-crossing the sky. They are probably caused by relatively still winds at the levels the planes are flying, and I'm willing to bet that those conditions are more common in some places than in others. At least, that's my non scientist opinion.

[Silverhair]

30. Yours is a good, common-sense opinion. NT

[SidDithers]

9. I've asked that question on every Chemtrail thread...

and never gotten an answer. Seems like a simple test to validate that whacked-out theory, you'd think somebody would have chartered a plane by now.

Sid

[MercutioATC]

10. I'm an air traffic controller. "Chemtrails" are a farce.

I say this based on a couple of facts:

1) "Chemtrail" implies that some chemical other than normal burned hydrocarbons is being released from the plane.

2) Commercial planes could not be used for this purpose (the "sprayer" would be easily noticed).

3) There just aren't enough military planes in the air to spread all of these "chemtrails" people claim to see.

4) The "suspicious pattern" of "chemtrails" is also a non-issue. For the pattern to be suspicious, the flight paths of the planes would have to be suspicious. They're not. It might look strange to a layperson on the ground, but it's business as usual in the sky...no suspicious flight paths.

5) What moron would try to spread chemicals at 35,000 feet? The winds would make the dispersal pattern incredibly difficult to predict.

6) Contrails and their behavior differ based on a number of variables (type of plane, air temperature, altitude, air density, humidity, wind direction and speed, etc). There's absolutely nothing strange about contrails behaving as they do.

[DemoTex]

11. I've spent thousands of hours up there among those "chem-trails."

I've observed the primary sources of chem-trails with my own eyes. On some days I have seen intricate criss-cross patterns in the sky. Sometimes I have seen a chem-trail streaking at me with a closure rate of over 1200 mph. Most of the time, when I saw chem-trails, I knew I was laying down a chem-trail too. What you are seeing and calling chemtrails are nothing more than condensation trails (contrails). The chemical involved is primarily H2O.

The perpetrators of chem-trails are, for the most part, exotic aircraft such as the Boeing 737 or Airbus A-330. The number of chem-trails these passenger-loaded airliners usually disperse is usually directly correlated to the number of engines (ie, L-1011 has three, Airbus A-340 "pulls" four trails, a Boeing 777 two, and an F-16 one, etc).

[Silverhair]

13. Conspiracy theorists would simply claim the tests were rigged by "Them".

A CTists will always take all evidence against their CT and claim it is part of the great cover-up.

[Henny Penny]

14. No need for scientific testing... when some of the great posts below

must surely have settled the issue for you!

[Desertrose]

21. Good point Henny Penny....

Best way to hide anything is in plain site and then call anyone who points it out a crazy conspiracy theorist (CT).








But hey, what about the weather modification bill? U.S. Senate Bill 517 and U.S. House Bill 2995, House & Senate

Official Title: To establish the Weather Modification Operations and Research Board, and for other purposes.
Introduced (By Rep. Mark Udall )

It is the purpose of this Act to develop and implement
a comprehensive and coordinated national weather modi-
fication policy and a national cooperative Federal and
State program of weather modification research and devel-
opment.

(3) RESEARCH AND DEVELOPMENT.--The term
"research and development'' means theoretical anal-
ysis, exploration, experimentation, and the extension
of investigative findings and theories of scientific or
technical nature into practical application for experi-
mental and demonstration purposes, including the
experimental production and testing of models, de-
vices, equipment, materials, and processes.
(4) WEATHER MODIFICATION.--The term
"weather modification'' means changing or control-
ling, or attempting to change or control, by artificial
methods the natural development of atmospheric
cloud forms or precipitation forms which occur in
the troposphere.

appropriated to the Board for the
purposes of carrying out this Act $10,000,000 for each
of fiscal years 2006 through 2015. Any sums appropriated
under this subsection shall remain available, without fiscal
year limitation, until expended.


S. 517: Weather Modification Research and Technology Transfer Authorization Act of 2005
Introduced: Mar 3, 2005
Sponsor: Sen. Kay Hutchison
Status: Scheduled for Debate
Last Action: Dec 8, 2005: Placed on Senate Legislative Calendar under General Orders. Calendar No. 319.


It is the purpose of this Act to develop and implement
a comprehensive and coordinated national weather modi-
fication policy and a national cooperative Federal and
State program of weather modification research and devel-
opment.

"research and development'' means theoretical anal-
ysis, exploration, experimentation, and the extension
of investigative findings and theories of a scientific or

technical nature into practical application for experi-
mental and demonstration purposes, including the ex-
perimental production and testing of models, devices,
equipment, materials, and processes.
"weather modification'' means changing or control-
ling, or attempting to change or control, by artificial
methods the natural development of atmospheric
cloud forms or precipitation forms which occur in
the troposphere.

But wait...how can that when the DU experts say it ain't possible?? Ain't no such things as chemtrails...yet here are the bills in Congress & Senate claiming they want to attempt just such a thing...but since we all know that contrails are just water vapor, guess they have to "add something" to what goes into the atmosphere in order to modify the weather....

Either the physics supports it or not.
Either weather modification is possible or it isn't.
You can't have it both ways.

...and if it IS possible, what makes you think they are not already doing it??

[Silverhair]

23. The funding is only $10 Million per year.

That won't buy many flights, or much of a research program. Sounds like a few academics and some computers.

Your first picture is easily explained, and it's type is seen often. The upper air has winds too. I bet you didn't know that the upper air moves did you. You write as if you think it stands still. There are upper air maps available on the internet. Here is a good one: http://www.usairnet.com/cgi-bin/Winds/Aloft.cgi

Right now, at Dallas, TX, the winds at 24K ft are blowing at 110 mph from 350 degrees. The contrails that are formed will be blown almost due south at almost two miles per minute, at that altitude. At 30K ft they are 105 mph from 350 degrees. At 39K ft the wind is only 52 mph from 290 degrees.

If a major east/west flight lane is at about 24K feet, and conditions are right for contrails, and a plane goes along it every ten minutes, then the contrails will look like stripes separated by about 20 miles. And CTists will be taking pictures and posting.

Now throw in a few flights in other altitudes and directions and you can get some interesting looking patterns, and the tinfoilers will go into overdrive.
----
Now lets look at your second pictures. Notice that the contrail looks like a ribbon standing on it's edge. I would say a military jet making a high-G turn. The early part of a contrail tends to spread itself out in the same orientation of the wings due to wingtip vortex. After a few minutes other atmospheric conditions will overdrive the initial effect of the wings.

So it was likely a military jet. So what? When I was in Naval flight school, (I washed out. Only 3% pass. I was almost through the program when I flunked two flights in a row.) I have made the same the same thing you are showing in that picture, and I know I wasn't spraying anything.

---------
Your third picture. So you have a contrail over a cloud cover. No big deal. I have seen exactly the same thing, FROM ABOVE. So what? The dark line is the shadow of contrail on the cloud. The ring of light is because you are looking into the sun through a thin cloud. The light of the sun is being refracted.
------
The number of chemtrail believers is strong evidence of the extremely poor scientific education that occurs in our schools.

[Desertrose]

24. Just can't help yourself, can you?

Treating me as though I am stupid. Maybe thats to make you feel better :shrug:

I posted some interesting photos...no comments about them from me and yet you feel as though you had to explain them. I am perfectly capable of seeing what is in the photos. I did not try to promote them as anything beyond some interesting visual images. You're the one who jumped on the explanation bandwagon.


Of course I know that air moves. What do you mean I write as though I think air "stands still". What are you referring to? Where did I ever infer or imply anything about air currents? You keep bringing thngs up that have nothing to do with what I post. In fact, most of your replies have nothing whatesoever to do with what I post but seem designed to ignore the subject and show your "superior scientific education".

Yet you dismissed the weather modification bill in about 2 sentences. This bill at the least, indicates that someone somewhere is thinking about acting on weather modification which requires more than "water vapor" to end up in our atmosphere.
Ever read the studies on chaff? Proves that there has been just a bit more than water vapor being sprayed in our atmosphere.

You also refuse to look at any other evidence, because you know your physics and by golly, good old Occam's Razor is supposed to silence all dissent. I was actually waiting for Occam to be invoked and you didn't disappoint :evilgrin: (somehow I really doubt that Occam intended his comment "Pluralitas non est ponenda sine neccesitate"* to mean "The simplest explanation for some phenomenon is more likely to be accurate than more complicated explanations.")

I don't think its being a crazy CT, to ask just what the hell is going on in the skies over my head. Plenty of additional info/evidence is out there, if you ever want to look at anything beyond peer reviewed articles. These different type of trails have been seen by all types of people all over the world...by many educated, intelligent and professional people. Most out there just want some answers instead of the runaround by those whose arrogance seems to precludes learning something beyond the confines of their own worldviews.

Hmm...and I never knew that a "good scientific education" caused one to make up their minds without considering all the evidence.

*Entities should not be multiplied unnecessarily and really...sometimes the simpliest answer isn't the correct answer. Just FYI...it's not written in stone.

spelling

[Silverhair]

25. I do consider any chemtrail believer as lacking in intelligence and...

...in education.

A massive chemtrail program would cost a hell of a lot more than $10 million. Many times more. Yes, the bill does show that somebody wants to study it. I didn't see any cosponsors on either of those bills, nor have either of them made it to the floor for debate. Many strange bills are introduced. Back in the 1980's, a quack named Joe Newman had some members of congress supporting him, until Discover magazine did an expose and showed that his "Energy Machine" was a fraud. Just because someone is in congress doesn't mean they know what they are talking about in any particular subject. For that matter, I would not object to a minor study in weather modification. If it can be done, we need to know about it. But a bill in weather mod DOES NOT prove that contrails are really chemtrails.

Chaff? Of course I know about it. I knew about it as a kid. Back then it was very thin aluminum foil cut into strips. I even found a packet of it on the ranch when I was growing up. Instead of deploying it had come down as a packet. Modern chaff is very thin fiber glass coated in aluminum only a few molecules thick, cut to many different wavelengths in the microwave band, so that it will better reflect radar. It is used to give a false return on radar for military purposes. Ships have chaff wrapped around a small explosive charge too. When fired into the air by special launchers it will almost instantly hide the ship from radar in a cloud of chaff, causing an incoming missile to have to guess where the ship is. I spent several years in the service as an officer. Chaff is not a big deal.

I do prefer peer reviewed articles. It is a rather good filter to keep out the nuts.

You may want to notice that in this thread you have an airline pilot, an airtraffic controller, and myself who are all debunking the chemtrail idea. That is a good bit of professional expertise. Among genuine aviation and meteorology professionals, chemtrails have ZERO respect.

You claim to want answers, yet you reject the scientific answers that others, as well as myself have given. That suggests that you will only listen to CT answers.

There are many things I that I have made up my mind about. I will laugh at any argument for a flat earth, or for creationism, or that no plane hit the pentagon, or that chemtrails exist. Everything about those tracks in the sky can be easily explained in terms of meteorology, and all of the chemtrails explanations require absurdities.

[Desertrose]

28. Oh dear. I guess you put me in my place.

I am thoroughly chastised for even imagining we could have a conversation. Someone who has seen some strange things and asks questions and doesn't accept the pat answers given by someone who is as married to his "belief" that science has all the answers as any fundie is to their religion, shouldn't deign to imagine there could ever be any kind of discussion. How silly. My bad.

So I have been labeled and judged mentally and educationally inferior by a message board self labeled professionalwho is clearly unwilling to step out of the confines of his scientific "truths" because "There are many things I that I have made up my mind about." No kidding. Who would have ever guessed. I am amazed you even bother with me...oh thats right, I amuse you.

Maybe I don't accept your answers because it is clear minds are made up in advance and whatever evidence has been offered is always rejected out of hand.

BTW- I never claimed the weather mod bill was proof of chemtrails...only tried to make the point that it is definitely on the minds of certain people and just perhaps its possible things are going on that you don't know about...but I forgot. You know everything. No need to look further.

[Silverhair]

29. Genuine science has proved itself over and over.

Anti-science has also proved itself to be useless, over and over.

"Chemtrails" are in the same category as alien abductions, flat earth, creationism, channeling, psychics, astrology, and similar garbage.

The purpose of asking questions is to get answers. Once you have the answer, it is time to move on to the next question. Some people like to think that by never accepting an answer but instead asking the same question over and over that they are somehow being open minded. But they are fooling themselves. Science, especially math (I was a math major.) works on ANSWERS, then on to the next question. On things that science has proved, yes, my mind is quite made up. In science, once something is proved, it is PROVED, end of story.

After hundreds of years:

For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

An object at rest tends to stay at rest unless acted upon by an outside force.

An object in motion tends to stay in motion, unless acted upon by an outside force.

Force = Mass X Acceleration (Non calculus form. For absolute precision calculus is needed)

I could go on with other laws. Some were discovered more recently. But once PROVED, they have stayed PROVED. BTW - Newton used the language of calculus to write his laws, and as a result they are still valid even after Einstein's discoveries.

Some people like to believe that the purpose of asking questions is to ask the question, not to gain an answer. I consider that totally absurd.

Science works on proofs, and it is quite easy to explain what you are seeing.

As I have noted many times, for the CTists, the CT serves many of the functions of a religion. And the CT must be defended against all evidence to the contrary.

Science, on the other hand, is very willing to be examined and to offer evidence. Those are called experiments. The laws of science have been tested uncountable times, and still hold. Every time you use your cell phone, drive your car, sit at your computer on the internet, turn on your air conditioning, watch TV, use the microwave oven, or use your cooking stove - you are using the products made possible by science that has discovered the laws of nature and given them to engineers. Engineers then design the product. And then you try to question science, when it has proved itself so completely.

From those many experiments and measurements, we know what is happening in the atmosphere, and what the laws of thermodynamics are and how to apply them.

But you reject all scientific answers. You reject the testimony of the professional pilot posted here. You reject the testimony of the air traffic controller who has posted here. You reject the scientific facts that I have posted.

It is obvious that you will accept only a delusional CT answer.

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Silverhair]

16. Contrails persist also.

All you need is a higher humidity to retard the contrail from sublimating. Very common to find higher humidity in the air.

After all, clouds linger too. Have you ever looked at cirrus clouds?

[Bridget Burke]

19. Contrails spread out & linger too!

Winds in the upper atmosphere can produce some interesting patterns. The same winds affect clouds--which can also produce interesting patterns.

Probably a lot of people NEVER LOOKED UP before! I started looking up at an early age.

[benburch]

22. No, you have been told that is unusual for a contrail. It is not.

But because you have been told it is unusual, you believe the assertion, ie, Chemtrails.

Contrails have been acting just like this since aircraft first started making them. You can see them on satellite photos going back to the 60s.

There may be more of them now, however, due to the rise of the commuter jet replacing turboprop aircraft on the smaller feeder airlines. But still these are just contrails.

[JackieO]

26. Mods: please stop cluttering the 9/11 forum

This is the only forum on this site where we are allowed to discuss the events that "changed everything".
Please have a little respect and not clutter it up with posts that aren't relevant to the topic.

[Silverhair]

27. DU rules have established this as the conspiracy theory forum.

As per DU posting rules: “Posts about so-called "conspiracy theories" are not permitted on Democratic Underground, except in the September 11 forum.”

That is a direct cut-n-paste from the posted rules.

The mods ARE doing their job.

[stickdog]

31. That's an absurd interpretation.

But perfectly fitting, considering the source.

[Silverhair]

32. Hey, I am not a mod. And the rule is posted on the DU rule page.

So why are you criizing me? I didn't make it up. Nor did I interpret it. All I did was point it out so the poster would have an answer.

[stickdog]

33. The rule doesn't say that all conspiracy theory posts belong in this forum

Read it again. It says that this is the only forum that allows "conspiracy theory" posts -- presumably those that concern 9/11.

It doesn't say that this forum is a catch-all for any weird topic. Under any straight up interpretation of the rule you posted, this topic would either remain where it was posted or (more likely) be deleted.

[Silverhair]

34. Obviously, the Mods disagree with you.

Since it is probable that the mods are trained by Skinner, or by staff supervised by Skinner, then ultimately your argument, on this topic, is with Skinner.

[stickdog]

35. Since Skinner lives in a country over which Bush has proclaimed himself

dictator, ultimately my argument, on this topic, is with Cheney or Rove.

[Silverhair]

36. Cheney & Rove tell Skinner what forum to put a thread in??

That is one of the craziest thinks I have seen posted.

[stickdog]

37. No. You do.

And you used an absurd DU rule interpretation to do so, hence my responding commentary.

Luckily we finally made that clear. Now we can go back to waiting.

[Silverhair]

38. But I didn't do it. I am not a Mod. I can't make any decisions like that

i have no power or authority to interpret any DU rule.

All I did was point to the rule when the poster asked a question. This thread had already been moved to the 9-11 forum when I first saw it.

The rule was made by Skinner. He taught the staff and mods what to do. They did it with no input from me.

But you are angry with me because I noticed it. And somehow you think Cheney and Rove are involved? Wow !