Strange Death of Father Judge

[RayUbinger]

Can anyone please help identify the implements that were videotaped being wielded by alleged FDNY men near the place and time of their "finding" Mychal Judge dead?

http://911foreknowledge.com/judge.htm

Syringe? Cattleprod?
They don't look like any firefighter tools I've ever seen. Was Mr. Backofhead thrusting one of them into Father Judge?

Is that Father Judge's left hand sliding down Chief Pfeifer's back, during Mr. Backofhead's arm-thrust?

Note there are TWO arm-thrust video clips, when we are told there was only ONE camera there. That means either there were TWO cameras OR else the arm-thrusting was a REPETETIVE motion.

The excerpts are from Naudet 911, the first snuff film to ever win an Emmy.


Ray Ubinger

[sabbat hunter]

1. i cannot tell

the films are too dark and grainy to make anything out

[RayUbinger]

4. Not completely dark and grainy

Several things are perfectly visible:

A man seen only from behind and wearing no headgear("Mr. Backofhead") is heavily thrusting his right arm into a space in front of Chief Pfeifer.

There are two video clips of said arm thrust, even though we are told there was only one camera there. Therefore, we're EITHER being lied to about the number of cameras there, OR else, ONE strange arm THRUST has become an even more inexplicable REPETITION, arm THRUSTS.

A left hand slides down Chief Pfeifer's back during the thrusting.

An object looking much more like a cattleprod than any firefighter tool is featured in an inexplicable close-up.

They are heard referring to their just-deceased, allegedly beloved chaplain, as an *it*. "Put it down, put it down, put it down."


Ray Ubinger

[smirkymonkey]

2. What motive?

[RayUbinger]

5. Perhaps he knew too much

But I really have no good evidence-based idea. I'll let you research that aspect, now that I've broken the case open.

Or are you saying the footage looks like perfectly normal stuff for firemen to be holding and doing?


Ray Ubinger

[spooked911]

53. One possibility-- Father Judge was "onto" the Naudet brothers

and was going to report their suspicious activities? Did the Naudet brothers' NYFD collaborators then take him out?

That's the only thing interesting I can figure. Unless he simply had a heart attack in the excitement.

[RayUbinger]

57. IMO he's oblivious to Jules openly filming him

when that moment happens. (it is not excerpted on our site.)

It's pathetic how worriedly intense Judge is, muttering prayers under his breath, nervously staring far off into space, pacing in place.
And Chief Pfeifer makes a point of saying how uncharacteristically unapproachable and unreassuring Judge was being.
It is Pfeifer's back that the (Judge's?) left hand slides down, during Mr. Backofhead's vigorous arm-thrust. Which there are somehow two videos of.


Ray Ubinger
http://911foreknowledge.com/judge.htm

[spooked911]

60. But what about the possibility that he was killed because he knew

something about why the Naudets were there filming 9/11 in the first place? He was onto their scam?

This is different than whether he knew they were filming him.

[RayUbinger]

65. I think he'd have been looking suspiciously at the camera in that case

Instead, he seems very nervously focused on other things in that moment, things inside his head and maybe sights off in the distance, as he muttered prayers half-aloud to himself. (This moment is not excerpted at 911foreknowledge.)

But you might be right. I'm not sure here. Another factor might possibly be his reported homosexuality. I just don't have enough info yet to put a substantial motive to it.


Some of what's certain:

* he died INSIDE TOWER 1, NOT OUTSIDE TOWER 2

* he was standing in the Tower 1 lobby, pacing and praying in place, all alone, not giving anyone last rites, just before the Tower 2 demolition, after which he was "found" dead within one minute

* not one assessor of the cause of his death has been quoted in this thread

* in the movie, the only two such witnesses stop short with a description that he "had no pulse," which is NOT a CAUSE of death

* there were TWO cameras around when he died (not just the ONE we're told about), OR else, Mr. Backofhead's already-mysterious right-arm thrust was an even MORE inexplicably REPEATED motion

* the firemen on scene describe finding him and immediately assessing he was dead, with no attempt at all to revive him even being considered

* one of them refers to him as an *it* while carrying him, and later one of them refers to him as "the OLD guy" while talking about it back in the firehouse kitchen in the afternoon

* a rigid metallic-looking rod with a sharp point is featured in an inexplicable close-up in the movie


Ray Ubinger
http://911foreknowledge.com

[spooked911]

3. what possible significance does this have to 9/11?

do you have theory?

why would they want to hurt the father?

[RayUbinger]

6. You mean other than the fact that it happened inside WTC-1 on 9/11?

sheesh

[philb]

7. Is there an official explanation for his cause of death?

It was strange. Many firemen in there statements talked about it.

Was there an autopsy?
Did he have an injury?
Did it seem to be a heart attack?

[RayUbinger]

8. I don't know, please help me research it

I don't know whether or not there was an autopsy. Will you please find that out, and get back to us?

No injury, nor heart attack, is mentioned in the movie. The firemen in the movie strangely say ONLY that "he had no pulse." As if that explains anything. TWICE they say that same exact phrase. (once said by Chief Pfeifer in an interview clip, and once said by Eddie Fahey to James Hanlon back at the firehouse kitchen in the afternoon, where Fahey refers to Judge not by name but only as "the OLD guy.")

Note also: They are not shown making any attempt whatsoever to REVIVE the man! They're shown finding him, and then almost immediately they are suddenly carrying him away, and carrying him very sloppily at that. Then they staged a very Pieta-like picture of their carrying of him, out in the street, where they still did not even have the decency to cover his body with a cloth. Then they DUMPED him on the ALTAR of his own CHURCH around the block!

It smacks of some kind of ritual sacrificial murder.


Ray Ubinger

[northzax]

44. revive him?

a: they couldn't take the time, there were others to save.
b: he had been hit by 150 pounds (estimated) of person falling from at least 500 feet. There is nothing to revive.

[RayUbinger]

47. Try again

a. They couldn't take the time to try to save their department's beloved spiritual leader because they had to try to save other people instead?

That makes about as much sense as Jamal Braithwaite saying he had to save people 80 floors up, so he just left the allegedly burning people in the lobby for dead.


b. Come back when you can produce a witness statement that anything fell on him from that height. (Or even a witness statement that he gave anyone last rites that day.) There is video of him being inside WTC-1 when he was "found" dead. It's called Naudet 911.

Also you might want to look at those Reuters photos again. As the New York Magazine article noted, "his body was still perfectly intact."


Ray Ubinger

[piobair]

9. Death of Father Judge

Father Judge was killed outside tower 2 by falling debris as he administered last rights to a firefighter killed when a jumper crashed into him. The Nov. 2001 issue of Men's Journal has the whole story as well as a clear picture of Father Judge being carried by rescue workers. Instead of being "dumped" on the alter of his church as one poster said, he was in fact shrouded with a white sheet and his helmet placed on his chest at the alter of St Peters, the oldest Roman Catholic church in Manhattan.

It amazes me how someone can take a couple of seconds of ambiguous at best video and turn it into a conspiracy.

[RayUbinger]

10. Magazine article doesn't make footage go away

> Father Judge was killed outside tower 2

Stop right there, and explain then what's with Jules Naudet and all those firemen in the Naudet movie talking about finding him dead in the Tower ONE lobby, shortly after Tower 2 came down. You're saying they're a pack of liars, and faked their footage to boot??

I mean, haven't you watched the movie? Haven't you SEEN how THEY, the early responders to Tower ONE, the first tower hit, pick him up (without trying to revive him!) and carry his body up and out the door?

Haven't you watched how they 'coincidentally' shot footage of him in his last moments alive, standing around in the Tower ONE lobby, muttering prayers all by himself, looking decidedly worried, and NOT TALKING to them?

That's like the last thing in the movie before the demise of Tower Two. WHEN are you claiming he got from there to being outside Tower TWO and administering last rites, and WHY do you think the early responders faked footage of finding him dead inside Tower ONE where THEY were?


> It amazes me how someone can take a couple of seconds of ambiguous at best video and turn it into a conspiracy.

So that footage looks to you like perfectly normal stuff for firemen to be holding and doing? What's that cattleprod-like thing in that close-up, a new kind of fire extinguisher?

Why do they refer to the dead man they're carrying as an *it*? ("Put it down, put it down, put it down!")

And that PAIR of clips of Mr. Backofhead thrusting his right arm -- logically that has to be EITHER a second camera OR else the thrust itself was a REPETETIVE motion. Which explanation do you pick?


Ray Ubinger

[philb]

11. That contradicts the many firemen statements who were there

Access the individual firemen statements and do a search(find) for
Judge in each one. You will find a lot of firemen who made statements about their knowldege regarding his death. I think you'll find a lot of statements contrary to the above.
I went through all the statements, but didn't snip info on Father Judge.
but saw a lot.
http://www.nytimes.com/pages/nyregion/nyregionspecial3/

[RayUbinger]

12. Statement transcripts also don't make the footage go away

You claim if I click through those 503 individual statements then I will find something relevant, but you don't bother to quote a single one that YOU allegedly found?? What kind of time-wasting diversionary tactic is this?

I furnished videotaped interview and in-the-moment audio establishing that he died in the Tower 1 lobby in the aftermath of the disintegration of Tower 2. You offer nothing back but your hearsay, of publications that you don't even bother to actually quote.

Meanwhile you steadfastly avoid talking about any images in the video, like the thing that looks more like a cattleprod than any firefighter too, and like how the heck we have two different angles on Mr. Backofhead's strange right-arm thrust when there was reportedly only one camera there.

Present or discuss some actual evidence or go back to lurking.


Ray Ubinger
NAUDET 911: THE ART OF THE MOCK-YOU-DRAMA
http://911foreknowledge.com

[piobair]

13. objects

The smaller object looks just like the small flashlight I keep velcro'd to my helmet and the larger item is the spitting image of my Motorola hand held radio. I've looked at the video and find no compelling evidence that Father Judge was found anywhere except outside tower 2. If he "Knew too much" then why didn't he speak up before the attack. I'm sure a Gay Catholic priest was in the loop.

[RayUbinger]

14. Footage taken by EARLY responders shot in first-hit Tower ONE

Thanks for your valid opinions on what the objects are. But you remain silent on Mr. Backofhead's right-arm thrust, and how the heck there can be TWO videos of it. Nor do you offer any explanation of the left hand that slides down Chief Pfeifer's back at that same moment.

Moreover, if you can't grasp that Father Judge died inside the Tower ONE (the NORTH Tower) lobby, you need to study the context of this footage more. Watch the rest of the movie and come back. Keep the following logic in mind when you do.


The footage in question was shot by Jules Naudet with the EARLY RESPONDERS, the same people who filmed/saw the FIRST Hit from the Church-Lispenard intersection, the location of the alleged odor of alleged gas. (See http://911foreknowledge.com/staged.htm)

The 1st Hit was on Tower ONE (the NORTH Tower). No one disputes this.

Therefore the early responders went to Tower ONE.

Therefore this footage, taken BY THE EARLY RESPONDERS, is from inside Tower ONE. (There is NO known footage from inside Tower Two.)

AND, this footage shows the discovery and transport of the body of Father Judge. The narration is all about that. To maintain that he was found OUTSIDE *either* Tower is to totally disregard this footage and the testimony within it. (the narration and interview footage from Jules Naudet and Chief Pfeifer)


Summarizing so far, the footage was shot inside Tower One, AND, it shows the discovery of dead Father Judge.

Therefore, this footage establishes Father Judge as DYING INSIDE TOWER ONE.


The reason the footage is so dark and grainy is that Tower TWO, the SOUTH Tower, the first Tower to come down (nobody disputes this), had just come down. That is the Tower Two dust all through this footage, filling the air inside the Tower ONE lobby, where the EARLY RESPONDERS responded to, and where they later filmed themselves "finding" Mychal Judge.


Ray Ubinger
http://911foreknowledge.com
Sinister clues of inside info and deep deception lurk in Emmy-winning "documentary" by the Naudet "brothers."

[philb]

15. Many firefighter statements put Father Judge in WTC1

see previous message

[RayUbinger]

18. As does the footage

http://911foreknowledge.com/judge.htm
excerpted from Naudet 911.

Remember, the movie is famous for having the only known footage from inside EITHER Tower that day, taken by the crew who SAW AND FILMED AND IMMEDIATELY RESPONDED TO the *FIRST* hit, which was at Tower ONE, where they set up a command post inside the damaged Tower ONE lobby, where they filmed Father Judge muttering worried prayers and not talking to any of them, and where they very shortly later filmed their "finding" of his body.


Ray Ubinger
discoverer also (on 6/30/2004) of the incriminating First Hit Reaction Shot
http://911foreknowledge.com/bravenewworld.htm
which appears ONLY in Naudet 911, nowhere else.

[philb]

16. I searched for explosion, not father judge, but I saw father judge

mentioned in many statements; I just had no reason to snip the
ones I saw. I was only trying to be helpful.
provided the reference-

[RayUbinger]

17. Then start a thread about explosions

Discuss or present actual evidence relevant to this thread, like I have done, or go back to lurking in this thread. Your claim that somewhere among 503 individually clickable transcripts is some thing which contradicts the footage and/or contradicts something I said, is useless, and so is your silence on the footage.


Ray Ubinger
http://911foreknowledge.com
NAUDET 911: THE ART OF THE MOCK-YOU-DRAMA

[philb]

19. I did; see link

http:/www.flcv.com/firemen.html

why are you giving me a hard time when I try to be helpful by telling you what I saw while looking through the firemen statements?
and giving you a link where you can find info relevant to this thread. I can't do everyone's research on every topic. It took me several days to do the above summary.

[RayUbinger]

20. Confused you with piobair, sorry

You philb agree that Judge died inside WTC-1, not outside WTC-2, right?

[piobair]

22. www.saintmychal.com

Here is another story of Father Mike being hit by debris while administering last rights to a firefighter AND the woman jumper that killed him. I see the "strange death of Father Judge" came from Webfairy. Maybe Father Mike was just a Hologram.

www.saintmychal.com

[mirandapriestly]

23. Oh, I'm SURE that story is accurate. nt

[RayUbinger]

25. Scrutinizing the saintmychal page

> Here is another story<.>
> http://www.saintmychal.com

The relevant page from that site is
http://saintmychal.com/deathof.htm

Before quoting it, I note it is in two parts: first, an anonymous ten-paragraph intro, and then, a condensed version of the November 12, 2001 New York Magazine article
http://tinyurl.com/8hhtz
aka
http://newyorkmetro.com/nymetro/news/sept11/features/5372/index.html
by Jennifer Senior.


"Father Brian Carroll, O.F.M., went up to Father Judge's room to inform him that a plane had just crashed into one of the World Trade Center towers."

This alleged moment is not mentioned anywhere in the NYM article. It appears only in the anonymous intro.

Did Carroll actually see this alleged plane? If so, kindly cite his description of it. My reading on the subject so far indicates that the eyewitnesses who were interviewed on that day are almost UNANIMOUS that the towers were hit by something OTHER than large jets.


"Father Carroll recalls that Father Judge quickly took off his Franciscan habit, changed into his chaplain's uniform -- paused to comb and spray his hair-- and headed for the door."

No actual quote from Carroll anywhere, about this alleged moment; neither in the anonymous intro nor in the NYM article. (since the NYM article doesn't mention the alleged moment at all)


"There were conflicting early reports of the exact circumstances of Father Judge's death. Cassian Miles, O.F.M., communications director for the Holy Name Province, confirmed with the fire department battalion leader on-site at the World Trade Center that Mychal indeed was anointing a firefighter and the woman who had fallen on the firefighter."

No actual quote from Miles, anywhere; neither in the NYM article nor in the anonymous intro to the condensed version of it. Even the full NYM article does not mention Miles, at all.

And who was the "fire department battalion leader on-site"? (also mentioned only in the anonymous intro)


"Father Judge's body, according to Father Miles, revealed severe injury to the back of the head."

Whoa, Miles saw this injury himself?! Hm, no, he's not actually quoted as saying that. In fact he is not actually quoted anywhere at all, about anything.

So apparently, this is THIRD-hand hearsay. You cite an ANONMYOUS writer as saying, THAT CASSIAN MILES said, THAT THE UNNAMED BATTALION LEADER ON-SITE said, that the back of Mychal Judge's head revealed severe injury. Did I get that right?



Now beyond the ten-paragraph anonymous intro and on into the NYM article.


"Judge's body was found in the lobby of Tower One<.>" LIKE I SAID! Thank you for confirming my point!!


"ne of the firefighters who carried Judge out of the building, Christian Waugh, says he saw the chaplain standing upright by the emergency command post just seconds before they and scores of others got caught in a monsoon of rubble."

Would that be the fake emergency command post staffed by Chief Pfeifer behind the built-in lobby desk, or do they mean the real command post that the actual fire commanders set up out in the middle of the lobby, a beat-up portable lectern-type thing?


" 'I'm assuming he gave last rites to the guy in Company 216 and then ran into the lobby," says Waugh.' "

What guy in Company 216? Assuming why?


" 'Because I was with him in that lobby. He was standing right there, a few feet away from me.' "

In other words Waugh is saying Judge abandoned outside the two people Judge had allegedly been giving last rites to?


"They took his pulse. Nothing." Again with this non-explanatory explanation. Chief Pfeifer says, "He had no pulse." Eddie Fahey says, "No pulse." Nobody on scene is being quoted as determining any actual INJURY or other death cause. The NYM article even says his body was still "perfectly intact."

How about doing some real first-hand research and find out for us whether or not an autopsy was done on Judge?


"That was the moment a Reuters photographer, Shannon Stapleton, snapped the picture that Christopher Keenan, one of Judge's closest friends at the friary, now calls 'a modern Pietà.' "

There are three photos known from that moment:




In the third photo, note the presence of Chief Joseph Pfeifer at back left, wearing only his garrison uniform. He's readily identifiable as the same white-uniformed guy in the infamous Alleged Odor Of Alleged Gas scene:
http://tinyurl.com/6zx44

The contradiction here is, the Naudet movie explicitly depicts Pfeifer as MISSING the carrying of Judge's body through the street.

The Naudet movie explicitly shows Pfeifer still inside WTC-1 at that time, wearing full fireman's overgear, while searching the NW Pedestrian Bridge area for the best exit. In the meantime, the movie depicts, the carriers of Judge's body proceeded (against Pfeifer's orders) out the "dangerous" exit. When Pfeifer comes back to say Let's Use The Pedestrian Bridge, he finds no one to say it to, according to the Naudet movie.

Therefore either the Shannon Stapleton photos of Judge's corpse-carry were staged, or the Naudet movie version of it was staged, or both.


Ray Ubinger
http://911foreknowledge.com

[RayUbinger]

27. The messenger is not the message

> I see the "strange death of Father Judge" came from Webfairy.

No it came from the Naudet-FDNY snuff film, "9|11", Region 1 DVD, Commemorative Edition, released September 11, 2002. Webfairy simply excerpted and published it with my commentary.

[mirandapriestly]

21. Photo of Father Judge being carried by firefighters

outside wtc

[piobair]

24. how about this one then

We can do this forever. For every bizarre theory and grainy 3 frames of video showing who knows what I can show you 50 accounts of what really happened. This in no way confirs acceptance of the way the attacks were supposed to have occurred but promoting these bizarre conspiracies with no evidence is ridiculous. I could follow you around with a camera in poor light conditions and claim based on a series of random movements that you were jacking off with a Buck Rogers ray gun when you were in fact painting a fence with a Wagner power painter.


http://www.usconsulate.gr/Critsimilios%20remarks%20in%20Thessaloniki.doc

[RayUbinger]

26. How about quoting anyone as seeing Judge's alleged head wound?

> We can do this forever.

Yep I can keep asking you what Mr. Backofhead's right-arm thrust was, and what that left hand was doing sliding down Chief Pfeifer's back when Mr. Backofhead's right arm thrusted, and how the heck there got to be TWO different videos of it when we are told Jules Naudet operated the ONLY known camera inside WTC that day. I can keep asking those questions, and you can keep ducking them, forever.


You cite:

http://www.usconsulate.gr/Critsimilios%20remarks%20in%20Thessaloniki.doc

which says in part:

"My name is Pete Critsimilios and I am a New York City Fireman. I work in Engine 37/Ladder 40 in the Harlem section of New York. <....> My fire unit responded to the W.T.C. early the next morning. We were met with a scene of complete devastation."

So something else you can apprently do forever is fail to directly quote anyone as actually witnessing that Mychal Judge suffered a head injury. This latest guy you're trotting out, Critsimilios, begins his account by saying he didn't even get to WTC until the next day!


Ray Ubinger
http//911foreknowledge.com

[RayUbinger]

28. Or how about quoting anyone who saw Judge giving last rites?

The notion that he supposedly gave anyone last rites is total hearsay so far. No one has quoted anyone as actually seeing such a thing happen.

Same with the alleged head injury.


Ray Ubinger
http://911foreknowledge.com

[mirandapriestly]

34. What does that have to do with this thread?

Why are you here?

[RayUbinger]

43. Piobair just thought any witness who mentioned Judge would be valid

Trouble is, piobar doesn't quote first-hand account of the claims he raised. All he has are witnesses who REPEAT the stories--that Judge gave last rites and suffered head injury.

Piobair quotes no witness to Judge actually performing last rites.

Piobair quotes no witness to an actual head injury on Judge.

Piobair offers no explanation of Mr. Backofhead's vigorous arm thrust.

Piobair offers no explanation of how there got to be two videos of it.

[philb]

36. He was carried to a Church near the Towers; so was this taking him to WTC1

or later taking him from WTC1 to the Church?

[mirandapriestly]

38. I assumed this was after what had been filmed

and the people carrying him were the same as those involved in the Naudet film. I can't tell what is happening in the film, but I think it's strange that they are carrying him so haphazardly (in film) and appear to be referring to him as "it". and where are his injuries? If they found him inside why was there no CPR?
Also weird coincidence that Father Judge's replacement was forced to resign over comments that the official story was bunk.

[RayUbinger]

41. No it was taking him from WTC1 to the church

Except it's questionable for being a staged photo, since it shows Pfeifer, whom the Naudet movie explicitly depicts as MISSING the corpse-carry after he got separated from those guys INSIDE wtc-1.

Alternately, if the photo is telling the truth, that Pfeifer was with the corpse carriers in the street, then the Naudet movie is lying, about Pfeifer getting separated from the corpse carriers back inside Tower 1.


Ray Ubinger

[Sweet Pea]

29. I kinda like....

the cattleprod theory.

Honestly. Are you serious? "cattleprod"?

[RayUbinger]

30. You kinda like ducking the questions as much as piobair does

> Are you serious? "cattleprod"?

So what is it really, and what is the meaning of Mr. Backofhead's vigorous right-arm thrust, and the left hand sliding down Chief Pfeifer's back at that same moment, and how did there get to be TWO videos of it when Jules Naudet had the ONLY known videocamera inside WTC that day?

Put your next non-answer right here:

_____________________________________


Ray Ubinger
http://911forenkowledge.com

[piobair]

31. hand slide

What the hell is so sinister about a hand sliding down Chief Pfeifer's back? I've led many crews into fires and the main way we stay in contact is through touch.
I've just gone to your website Ray,and you seem to have a particular hostility towards firefighters. Your section about a soldier disguised as a firefighter is just crazy. If you see anything but a firefighter in normal turn out gear you'd better get back on the short bus.

[RayUbinger]

32. Keep it in context

First of all they're standing in one place, within sight of one another, not leading one another around. (And elsewhere, when they ARE walking around, they aren't seen putting their hands on one another's backs.)

The hand slide would not be nearly as suspicious if it weren't happening at the same time as Mr. Backofhead's unexplained vigorous right-arm thrust, which you studiously ignore.

You also keep ignoring the question of how there can be two different videos of the arm-thrusting when there was reportedly only one camera there. Obviously we are either being lied to about the number of cameras, OR else the already mysterious arm-thrust was a REPEATED action, arm THRUSTS. Which explanation do you pick??

Note also Pfeifer and Mr. Backofhead are looking DOWN at the space in front of Pfeifer.

The postures and action are consistent with the explanation that Judge is lying back in Pfeifer's arms, with his left hand hanging on to Pfeifer's back, while Mr. Backofhead vigorously stabs/prods/injects Judge with something; then this saps Judge's life and his left hand slides down in death.


I have nothing but admiration for real firefighters. CIAgents posing as firefighters in order to arrange "lucky" "accidental" footage of their heinous crimes, and sell the footage back to us as a respectable documentary, are a very different matter.


The Soldier Disguised As A Fireman
http://911foreknowledge.com/soldier.htm
has an ARMY-style Kevlar helmet, where the back and sides come down to cup over the ears and neck. Pfeifer in the foreground wears an actual firefighter helmet, whose brim by contrast stays basically level at the ears even while it extends far behind the head.

This same soldier appears again later in the movie, still wearing army green camoflauge clothes, in a clip we have not excerpted yet. He pretends to call for help for a fake victim who is on all fours on the sidewalk. Somehow THREE COPS just HAPPEN to be standing TWO FEET away, and they step in. They perform the unusual first-aid move of patting the "victim" on the back, causing him to fall from an all-fours position to a prone position. In the background, a second cameraman approaches, resembling Jules Naudet. Would you like me to look up the dvd clock time for this clip so you can examine it yourself?

While I'm doing that you can finally tell us what's going on with Mr. Backofhead's arm-thrust, and where the second camera came from. Or was it one camera shooting repeated thrusts? Put your next non-answer right here:



Ray Ubinger
http://911foreknowledge.com
NAUDET 911: THE ART OF THE MOCK-YOU-DRAMA

For clues where we are coming from see Scott Loughrey's review of the same movie at
http://tinyurl.com/5ne5q

[piobair]

33. helmet

You are full of crap. That is a standard issue FDNY helmet with the normal tools such as wedges and flashlight rubber banded with an inner tube to the sides. In addition, you can see the face shield in the up position. The firefighter is wearing the helmet at an angle but is definitley an FDNY helmet. The rest of the gear is normal bunker gear with no camo in sight. What would be the purpose of having reflective strips on camo?

So what do you think the firefighter is administering the Coup de gras with, the flashlight or the radio?

[RayUbinger]

35. You are full of changing the subject

> That is a standard issue FDNY helmet<.>

As an army veteran familiar with army helmets, I disagree with your valid opinion.

You don't mention being interested in the further evidence I mentioned, of the same guy appearing later, dressed like a soldier, pretending to call for help for a pretend victim, with three cops standing two feet away.

I surmise the purpose of reflective strips would be to blend in with how the real firemen are dressed. I surmise the soldier was guarding that stage door, er, lobby entrance. Perhaps he killed the alleged burning people whom we never see and whom no firefighter is shown trying to help.

Pfeifer almost runs into soldier boy, but wheels hard left at the last instant, apparently just then remembering he's supposed to go that other way (left). A full-speed version is at
http://tinyurl.com/3qdcx
aka
http://st12.startlogic.com/~xenonpup/underground/underground_explosions.htm
about two-thirds down the page.

By the way, the jacket Pfeifer is actually wearing is different from the one the Smithsonian says he donated to them:


Observe that the lettering is situated differently. For instance the C in Chief relative to the N in FDNY. On the jacket he wore on 9/11, the C starts left of the N, but on the museum version the N starts left of the C. Smithsonian got a fake.


> So what do you think the firefighter is administering the Coup de gras with, the flashlight or the radio?

I see no flashlight nor radio. How many questions of yours do I have to answer before you'll answer one of mine? You're picking at nits while leaving huge issues completely unaddressed.


What is Mr. Backofhead's arm thrusting for and how did there get to be two videos of it?
http://911foreknowledge.com/judge.htm

And where is any witness report of seeing Judge give anyone last rites on that day? Or having a head injury? Both those notions are just complete fabrications, aren't they?


Ray Ubinger

[MercutioATC]

37. Actually, piobair didn't change the subject, he replied to part of your

post. He's familiar with FDNY helmets and he recognizes the helmet in question. That's a reply.

You're familiar with military helmets and think it looks like military gear. That's interesting, but it could resemble both military AND FDNY gear. Your claim that it looks military may be true, but it doesn't preclude the helmet from being FDNY gear, especially if they're using a helmet that's similar in design.


As far as your claim that the Smithsonian got a "fake" jacket, firefighters frequently have more than one of the same piece of gear....frequently purchased at different times. The lettering could very well be different on two jackets worn by the same firefighter.

[RayUbinger]

40. Helmet opinion difference already respectfully acknowledged

I'm an army vet familiar with army helmets, piobair is a firefighter familiar with fireman helmets. The truth of the helmet shape is open to some interpretation. Still unscathed is my observation that Pfeifer almost ran into the man, then went completely in the other direction. 'Oops whoa yeah the script doesn't have me going right, but left.' The alleged soldier also is seen putting the brakes on and starting to go to our right to get out of the picture.

And as for the Pfeifer jacket, the Smithsonian MUSEUM bills it as the jacket Pfeifer WORE THAT DAY. Witness to HISTORY, the exhibit is called. That's what museums do. They don't care what OTHER jackets Pfeifer has, they want to present stuff that was THERE on THAT DAY.

So I'm not saying he only had one work jacket in his wardrobe. But the one he wore that day, as shown in Naudet 911, certainly differs from the one at the Smithsonian. Why would Pfeifer tell them it was the jacket he wore that day when it clearly wasn't?


But all this is about the Soldier page. A change from the subject line. You and piobair have still not suggested any interpretation of Mr. Backofhead's vigorous arm thrust, NOR HOW THERE GOT TO BE TWO VIDEOS OF IT IF JULES NAUDET HAD THE ONLY CAMERA THERE. That is huge.
http://911foreknowledge.com/judge.htm

And if piobair is going to claim Father Judge was giving anyone last rites that day, or got a head injury, he sure hasn't quoted any witness of either claim. Both notions are complete fabrications as far as I've been able to tell.


Ray Ubinger

[piobair]

39. nits

Your "huge issues" are made up of nothing but nits. You claim,based on a video clip, that a firefighter is actually a soldier sort of dressed like a firefighter. Don't you think that any group capable of staging,{your words}, this whole event, could obtain an authentic FDNY uniform? I appreciate Mercutio chiming in on this but the fact is that FIREFIGHTER is actually wearing an FDNY helmet. I've never been more sure of anything in my life. I have sent that image to 4 different fire departments and asked them to show it around to see if there are any different opinions. You claim that the same individual appears later dressed differently. I'd like to see a side by side comparison rather than just take your word for it as you haven't been right yet.
Your original post asked for help in identifying objects that a firefighter was carrying. I told you what they most likely are. The main problem seems to be that you have absolutely no knowledge of firefighting equipment or operations. Where you see some sort of weapon, a firefighter will see a high rise hose pack or an SCBA slung over a shoulder. You surmise alot, but your suppositions are lacking in any evidence.

You claim that I'm just nitpicking and I should concentrate on the bigger issue. Without these nits there is no bigger picture.

The Devil is always in the details. I can see why this critique would annoy you because your whole website revolves around this same quality of "evidence".

[RayUbinger]

42. Still no answer

> Your "huge issues" are made up of nothing but nits.

Why did Mr. Backofhead vigorously thrust his right arm into that space in front of Pfeifer, at the same time that that left hand slid down Pfeifer's back, and how did there get to be two videos of it?

[piobair]

45. no answer

Ok. Since we have disposed of the soldier/firefighter and the cattle prod/syringe, the arm thrust were an attempt to revive Father Judge by a vigorous sternum rub. I have no actual evidence of this...I just surmise it. You have put forth no opinion of what it might be so my hypothisis is at least as plausible and given the absence of any motive to do Father Judge harm, more plausible than what you keep trying to imply.

[RayUbinger]

46. Revival-attempt explanation of arm thrust doesn't hold water

> he thrust were an attempt to revive Father Judge by a vigorous sternum rub.

So none of these alleged firefighters knew actual CPR, which would have had him supine on the ground while they would have compressed straight DOWN onto his sternum, and repeatedly blown into his mouth?

How would his left hand have been able to hang on to Chief Pfeifer, up near the back of Pfeifer's neck, if he really needed "reviving" at this point?

How did there get to be two video clips of the thrust?


> I have no actual evidence of this.

In particular you have no witness statement that any revival attempt whatsoever was even considered.

The witness statements that do exist, from cameraman Jules Naudet to Chief Pfeifer to firefighter Christian Waugh, indicate that they found him, then immediately decided somehow or other that he was dead, and then immediately began carrying his dead body up and out of WTC-1.


So far we have ...

... no witness to his allegedly giving anyone last rites that day.

... no witness to any particular cause of his death.

... no witness to any particular injury on him.

... no injury visible in the Naudet movie nor in the still photos from Reuters.

... no autopsy report.

... no one else in the group that he was with, reported as getting so much as a scratch.


We do have the pathetic footage of Judge muttering prayers all by himself out in the middle of the WTC-1 lobby just before the Tower 2 demolition.

We do have Pfeifer saying Judge was acting unusual by being like in his own worried world, not giving any of the rest of them any acknowledgment or reassurance.

We do have two witnesses saying that he had "no pulse," which may sound superficially at least like they wanted him to live, but it does not actually explain anything about how he came to die.

We do have glaring contradiction between the Reuters photograph showing Pfeifer attending the corpse-carry in the street, vs. the Naudet movie which explicitly depicts Pfeifer as still being inside WTC-1 at that time, scouting for the best exit while the corpse-carriers left him behind. (one of THREE moments in the Naudet movie where "firefighters" disobey direct orders to stay put)


> You have put forth no opinion of what it might be

I wrote, "The postures and action are consistent with the explanation that Judge is lying back in Pfeifer's arms, with his left hand hanging on to Pfeifer's back, while Mr. Backofhead vigorously stabs/prods/injects Judge with something; then this saps Judge's life and his left hand slides down in death."


Ray Ubinger
(p.s. I intend to have the Soldier's second scene published in the near future, the scene where he pretends to call for help for a pretend victim, while three officers standing RIGHT THERE, and a SECOND photographer start rushing in ... and knock the "victim" down with a pat on the back.)

[piobair]

48. autopsy

Brian Mulheren, a retired New York City police detective who attended the autopsy, said Father Judge died of blunt trauma to the back of the head.This has been reported on various sites.

[RayUbinger]

49. Quit spreading hearsay

Quote the autopsy report itself, if it really exists. Police detectives generally aren't also qualified as medical examiners.

[piobair]

50. autopsy

He didn't perform the autopsy, he witnessed it. Very common.I am not aware that autopsy reports are public information. You are holding all of your critics to a much higher standard than you yourself are willing to adhere too. Why don't you quote someone who says Father Judge was killed some other way than the accepted version. All you are relying on is your suppositions with nothing concrete to back them up. Your video is proof of nothing.

[RayUbinger]

51. Delay and distraction

> He didn't perform the autopsy, he witnessed it.

Are you going to get around to actually quoting him on that, or should we presume this just another total fabrication, like the touching notion that Judge gave someone last rites on that day?

> I am not aware that autopsy reports are public information.

Why else would a presumably law-abiding cop be mentioning the findings in public?


> Why don't you quote someone who says Father Judge was killed some other way than the accepted version.

Because I'm the first person to see the possibility. Why do you accept that Judge gave anyone last rites that day? Because the mainstream media tells you so?

> All you are relying on is your suppositions with nothing concrete to back them up.

It's a matter of which way the presumption should go. People who die unexpectedly should be presumed to have died suspiciously, until proven otherwise by a published autopsy report.

> Your video is proof of nothing.

Proof of a second camera inside WTC-1 on 9/11 is hardly proof of nothing! And the footage is not consistent with CPR or any other benevolent action that I can think of. No witness has said how they deduced that Judge was beyond even an attempt at revival. The public deserves written findings on people who die unexpectedly. Stop discouraging inquiry into the sketchy, conflicting, weird-looking circumstances around the death of this good man.


Ray Ubinger

[spooked911]

52. piobair-- did you come to DU just to rebut this story?

Odd that 10 of your 13 posts so far on DU are just on this story...

[piobair]

54. rebut

As a firefighter it pisses me off when someone who can't tell a cattle prod from a flashlight takes a 2 second video that could show anything and turns it into a conspiracy of firefighters killing the FDNY Chaplain. The man was universally loved throughout the dept. and to promote such crap is unconscionable. In addition the poster makes the claim that a firefighter,{and he is clearly a firefighter}, is a soldier in disguise and a trained assasin/actor or who knows what else. All of this posters "proof" comes from Webfairy or a site that he has contributed too. So to answer your question, I came here to debunk this one posters theories. It's one thing to be open minded but this stuff is a short step from holograms, fuel sprayers and pods. Lots of questions remain unanswered but Father Judge was hit by a ton of shit falling out of the sky.

[RayUbinger]

55. You mean YOU can't tell a flashlight from a walkie talkie?

> As a firefighter it pisses me off when someone who can't tell a cattle prod from a flashlight takes a 2 second video that could show anything and turns it into a conspiracy of firefighters killing the FDNY Chaplain.

First you insisted the thing that I say resembles a cattleprod was a handheld radio. Now you say it's actually a flashlight?

Either way, neither real walkie talkies nor real flashlights have long rigid metallic sharply pointed rods on them.


> The man was universally loved throughout the dept.

Yeah that must be why they referred to him as an *it* while carrying him. ("Put it down, put it down, put it down!" It's audible in the posted excerpt.) And why Eddie Fahey back in the firehouse kitchen refers to him not by name, but as "the OLD guy."


> and to promote such crap is unconscionable.

But parroting unsubstantiated drivel about him giving someone Last Rites and dying from blunt force head trauma, that's honorable?


> In addition the poster makes the claim that a firefighter,{and he is clearly a firefighter}, is a soldier in disguise and a trained assasin/actor or who knows what else.

His helmet comes down and out over his ears and neck, like an army helmet, unlike Chief Pfeifer's real fireman helmet in the foreground.
http://911foreknowledge.com/soldier.htm

Also he's a white man wearing glasses and a mustache, like the soldier play-acting with a fake victim at
http://911foreknowledge.com/soldier3.htm

He was possibly in leauge with the Spook In Bulletproof Vest pictured at the bottom of
http://911foreknowledge.com/soldier2.htm
which was shot at the same entrance to the same tower.

> All of this posters "proof" comes from Webfairy or a site that he has contributed too.

Nope, the evidence all comes from the publicly available Naudet 9|11 Region 1 Commemorative Edition DVD. We even include dvd clock times so you can check for yourself that we are not inventing the clips.

> It's one thing to be open minded but this stuff is a short step from holograms, fuel sprayers and pods.

How else besides holography would you explain giant hundred-mile-an-hour bird shadows cast onto the open sky, and shadows cast toward the sun, and shadows comprised of white light?


> Lots of questions remain unanswered but Father Judge was hit by a ton of shit falling out of the sky.

Not according to even ONE witness report that you've quoted yet. So I presume it's a TOTAL FABRICATION.

You have introduced no witness quote that Judge gave anyone last rites that day.

You have introduced no witness quote that he died of blunt force trauma to the head generally, much less that he died of anything hitting from way high up.

YOU CONTINUE TO PRETEND HE DIED OUTSIDE WHEN THE VIDEO AND EVEN CORRECTED VERSIONS OF THE OFFICIAL MYTH HAVE HIM INSIDE THE WTC-1 LOBBY WHEN FOUND.

You have introduced no quote from an autopsy report, nor any official citation that an autopsy was even done.


I show puzzling but real VIDEOS while you PARROT FICTION. But I'm the one to be all shocked at?

Quit blowing smoke, fireman!


Ray Ubinger
http://911foreknowledge.com

[piobair]

58. Succinct

"How else besides holography would you explain giant hundred-mile-an-hour bird shadows cast onto the open sky, and shadows cast toward the sun, and shadows comprised of white light?"

Pretty much sums it up. I'm with the Nebulon guy.

[RayUbinger]

61. You're too good to answer questions

But we can get into the details of the things I was talking about if you dare.
http://911foreknowledge.com/rayswhatzits.htm
http://tinyurl.com/63zle
See Frames 140-150 wherein the object casts a "shadow" LEFTward of itself, TOWARD the sun, onto the side of the white truck. And Frames 168-188 wherein it casts a WHITE "shadow" in the same direction onto the second bldg from left.

On the other hand you expect us to believe that Last Rites pablum about Father Judge when you have exactly zero quoted witnesses to it. And the fact that there are TWO videos of Mr. Backofhead's right-arm-thrust when we are told there was only ONE camera there? So convenient for you to ignore, and ignore, and ignore.


Ray Ubinger
http://911foreknowledge.com

[RayUbinger]

67. Re: Rebut

>> piobair, did you come to DU just to rebut this story?

> I came here to debunk this one posters theories.

How did you happen to become aware of my theories?


Ray Ubinger
http://911foreknowledge.com/judge.htm

[piobair]

69. Theories

I became aware of your "Theories" while reading the different posts in this forum. Since I'm not a metallurgist,engineer, or demolitions expert, I chose to remain silent. Not that this stops others with no particular expertise from expounding at length. I do know quite a bit about the Fire Service though so when I read your posts that were so evidently wrong and fundamentally flawed, I had to respond. While following some of the links you referenced I found you are quite well thought of at the sites that strongly promote the "hologram' theory. Some of them even claim to have pictures of robotic hovering hologram projectors near the WTC. My personal favorite is the "shape shifting Chemtrail sprayer" described on Orbwars. All that are missing are the "Sylph" nuts to complete the nutburger circle.
A theory is a group of proveable facts used to explain an event in the natural world. All of your proof comes from a couple of seconds of grainy video that makes the Big Foot video look like an Imax production. You describe things in the video that no one else seems to be able to see.

These aren't theories....they are delusions.

[RayUbinger]

73. You became a member right AFTER my first post

> I became aware of your "Theories" while reading the different posts in this forum.

Then how did you become aware of this forum? Did someone tell you I was posting stuff about the FDNY on it?

I first posted on Nov. 8, by creating this thread. You joined just AFTER that, on Nov. 10, according to your Profile.


> These aren't theories

"I came here to debunk this one posters theories," you had written.


Ray Ubinger
http://911foreknowledge.com

[piobair]

76. member

As I said. I simply read the posts for a couple of years because I had no particular expertise to offer. I joined in order to rebut your posts regarding the FDNY. I do have some expertise in these matters and you do not. Don't be so paranoid.

[RayUbinger]

78. Fair enough on membership date

Sorry I was thinking you had to be a member just to read.

Please tell us more about your expertise in matters regarding the FDNY. Tell us more about walkie talkies that have stiff sharply pointed rods on them. And funeral firetrucks that pass the crowd in both directions. And taking rookies joyriding up ladder trucks to see the skyscrapers from the roof level at night. (And taking the truck out of service in the process, unable to respond to a fire, by jacking it up in front to keep it level with the sidewalk, not to mention the time it takes to get the ladder down.) Tell us why the fire dept and not the gas co get dispatched for an odor of gas. Tell us whom you know in the FDNY. Tell us again how trivial it is that Michael Gorumba's body happened to be found by a plainclothes cop, because plainclothes cops are usually at fires.

Tell us how FDNY rookie Tony Benetatos could be filmed for over two months and there's not one shot of him doing a lick of actual firefighting anywhere in the movie. Tell us why a "box of medical gloves" would be important enough for Tony to send cameraman Gedeon away for, but not important enough for Tony to wait for. Tell us how that version of that story makes more sense than my version, which is that it was a plot device to get Tony off-camera, so that they could SAY he did 7+ hours of heroic search/rescue effort without them having to actually SHOW us.

Also if you could identify the specific model of firetruck reflecting in the "Pavel Hlava" video
http://thewebfairy.com/911/pavel
then that would be greatly appreciated by some researchers I know.


Thanks,

Ray Ubinger
http://911foreknowledge.com

[piobair]

79. truck

Since you asked nicely I'll address the truck type first. Without commenting on whether the image is real or how it was generated, the truck is what we call a "squad". They have a variety of uses from mobile command to EMS and Hazmat. Fire Depts. will buy a chassis and have the body put on by the maker of their choice. No way of telling from these images who the maker is. Looks a little bit like a Pierce.

Thr technical term for the pointy thing on the radio is "antenna". Looks exactly like my Motorola hand held.

15 years in the fire service. Firefighter, Lt. Capt. and currently Battalion Chief. Chief Fire investigator with arson investigation team and Dept. Piper. Degree in Fire Science and countless continuing Ed classes.
I'll leave my Brothers in the FDNY out of this. I have shown them some of your posts and besides being pissed at your accusations, they got quite a chuckle over your "theories"
I assume since the Naudet video was done with the cooperation of the FDNY, the ladder truck scene was OK'd. Kind of sappy but not sinister.
Don't know about trucks going both ways,but niether do you. Probably just filler. How would Tony wating for the gloves changed anything?

[RayUbinger]

81. Pavel Hlava's firetruck

I asked about the model of fire truck casting reflections in the "Pavel Hlava" footage
http://thewebfairy.com/911/pavel
(exceedingly rare footage, by the way; broadcast only once and then gagged)

Piobair, presumably in good faith and with strong firefighter credentials, writes:

> Without commenting on whether the image is real or how it was generated, the truck is what we call a "squad".

I'm curious you would suggest the Pavel Hlava footage might be faked, since "Pavel Hlava's" existence and story are wholly a part of the Official Story. The media didn't trot out him and his footage until the 2003 anniversary. The cover story about why it took so long to surface, is that he didn't realize what he had filmed (the 1st Hit).

Why on earth do YOU think anyone would have FAKED a firetruck's flashing light reflections into a PRE-1st-Hit story about a Czech immigrant czeching out how his new videocamera works on a beautiful Tuesday Manhattan morning? And left it to the much-maligned WEBFAIRY to discover, with nary one word of promotional attention or support from any other conspiracists except the also-maligned Scott Loughrey of 911hoax.com?

The Pavel footage with its flashing-red-light reflections belies the Official Story that "Pavel Hlava" shot it from a black SUV. It was shot by someone in league with the Brooklyn FDNY. They had a firetruck heading to Manhattan already, in anticipation of the 1st Hit, and they had a video camera trained on the Towers at the same time.


Ray Ubinger
http://911foreknowledge.com
Sinister clues of inside info and deep deception lurk in Emmy-winning S11 "documentary" by the Naudet "brothers."

[piobair]

83. authenticity

Like I said...I was not commenting on the authenticity. I wouldn't know a Pavel Hvala if it bit me on the ass. You asked what kind of truck was seen in the reflection and I told you. I don't comment on things that I have no knowledge about. You might consider that.

[RayUbinger]

90. It's not my fault you're unaware of the Pavel Hlava story

And it doesn't entitle you to ignore that another camera running AMONGST FDNY caught the FIRST Hit, OR else the burden of proof is on YOU to argue that the footage is fake. And that, sir, is because the footage is part of the official S11 story.

The Official Pavel Hlava Story is a link at
http://thewebfairy.com/911/pavel

You have to either believe it or be a nutty conspiracist like me. Note that nowhere does Pavel's story say anything about being with firemen on their way to Manhattan at the very time of the 1st Hit. He was allegedly just an immigrant enjoying a newly purchased videocam. Except it turns out to have been shot in the widescreen of a professional-grade videocam.


Ray Ubinger
http://911foreknowledge.com

[RayUbinger]

82. Walkie talkie antenna claimed by Piobair

> The technical term for the pointy thing on the radio is "antenna".

What's the purpose of the sharp point? And since when do walkie talkies involve a pair of SEPARATED parallel SEGMENTS located just below the antenna, sort of like a narrow long Y junction with the antenna?

-----------|_____________
-----------|


> Looks exactly like my Motorola hand held.

Feel free to show us so.


Ray Ubinger
http://911foreknowledge.com

introductory review by Scott Loughrey:
http://tinyurl.com/5ne5q


Where are the Naudet brothers hiding?

[piobair]

84. not what you claim

Those aren't seperate parallel segments. You are looking at the radio at an oblique angle. The face of the radio is lit by LED's in low light conditions and it makes it look as though you are looking through it. It is really a solid surface. The antenna is encased in semi rigid rubber coating. It is sharp enough to bruise your eye{been there done that} but not to penetrate anything. A picture of my radio in anything other than the conditions in your video would be worthless.

Once again Ray, your failing is an unfamiliarity with all things Fire Dept. related and the exceedingly poor quality of the video. You get an A for effort though.

Don't know and don't care where the Naudets are.

[RayUbinger]

98. Snapshot of object in question

http://tinyurl.com/7kuqx

The antennas of professional walkie talkies that I'm familiar with (from the army) are flexible safety-rubber-coated things, not rigid, metallic-looking and sharply pointed. The rigid-antenna walkie talkies that I'm familiar with are segmented, telescoping-collapsing things, and still don't have sharp pointy tips.


Ray Ubinger
http://911foreknowledge.com

[RayUbinger]

85. piobair's Brothers

> I'll leave my Brothers in the FDNY out of this. I have shown them some of your posts and besides being pissed at your accusations, they got quite a chuckle over your "theories".

So that's what you call leaving them out of this? You can tell them I am pissed at them too, if they're the ones who you know I say helped the S11 perps. Just as you are pissed at any person whom you think helped the S11 perps. I don't see them here disputing my evidence like you're at least trying to do. So let them be pissed.

What's their explanation for the Naudet-FDNY team having a SECOND camera rolling at 8:46 that they never told us about, AND a second camera rolling inside the WTC-1 Lobby that they ALSO never told us about? Why would such self-described Witnesses To History omit such interesting information? Why did they leave it to some amateur like me to discover and inform you of?


Ray Ubinger
http://911foreknowledge.com
NAUDET-FDNY BRUTHAZ: ACCESSORIES TO MASS MURDER

[piobair]

87. "interesting information"

It's only interesting in the same way my dog thinks it's interesting when the cat sicks up a hairball wrapped around rodent turds and gopher guts...and about as meaningful. Did the Naudets ever claim definitivley that there was only on camera? Even if they did and there were in fact two, what's the diff? If Father Judge was murdered why would the "perps" want it memorialized?
Ya got nothin

[RayUbinger]

99. Naudets lie; piobair yawns

Yes the Naudet movie claims definitively that only one of the two brothers' cameras (Jules', at the Church & Lispenard intersection) was running at the moment of the 1st Hit. They explicitly claim that the other brother (Gedeon) was still back at the firehouse at the time of the 1st Hit. So who shot this separate footage of pedestrian reaction (near Church & Murray intersection) at the instant of the 1st Hit? (footage which appears only in the Naudet movie, by the way)
http://911foreknowledge.com/bravenewworld.htm

And they also explicitly claim that Jules' footage is the only known footage from inside the WTC on 9/11. So how did there get to be two different shots of Mr. Backofhead vigorously thrusting his right arm at Father Judge inside the WTC-1 lobby shortly after the WTC-2 demolition (while Judge's left hand slides down Chief Pfeifer's back)?
http://911foreknowledge.com/judge.htm

And even if there was only one clip of that, what innocent explanation is there for vigorously thrusting an arm at an injured man?


Betchya can't find the rookie (at the time), Antonios "Tony" Benetatos, currently assigned to any FDNY unit. The kid's evidently a fake. He does not appear anywhere in the footage from the boot camp where they claim they discovered him. And he is not shown doing one lick of actual firefighting work anywhere in the whole movie. Standing around in a uniform doesn't count. He was just the cover story to explain why they were filming when S11 went down. The real reason they were filming is that they knew S11 was going to go down and the FDNY provided perfect cover for them to get dramatic "lucky" video footage with unique propaganda value.


Ray Ubinger
http://911foreknowledge.com

[RayUbinger]

86. Funerals are one-way processions

piobair writes:

> Don't know about trucks going both ways,but niether do you.

Exactly, everyone knows the Michael Gorumba funeral would not really have passed Tony in BOTH directions. But I showed that that's implied as having happened, by the Naudet video fakery and mistakery.

They inserted Tony into that funeral scene (see the otherwise inexplicable CUT in the pan across the crowd, at Tony and the Crowd at
http://911foreknowledge.com/funeral
)
But they must have accidentally filmed the truck passing Tony (at the FAKE funeral) in the WRONG DIRECTION. To cover this mistake, they mirror-imaged it to look like the same direction that the truck(s) at the REAL funeral were driving.

The mirror-image is proven by the migrating sore on Tony's cheek. Click Tony's Sore on the above link. First it's on his right cheek, then suddenly on his left cheek when the truck passes him in APPARENTLY the correct direction (if you don't know about the mirror-image they did). But it's ACTUALLY the OPPOSITE direction from how the truck(s) at the REAL funeral were driving.

I was bemusedly challenging you to tell us your fire dept expertirse on fire dept funerals that pass the crowds twice, in two different directions. Real funerals don't actually do that.


Ray Ubinger
http://911foreknowledge.com

[piobair]

88. as I said

As I said, the reverse footage was probably filler. Since there is normal footage of Tony at the funeral I don't see the problem. Your whole house of cards that started with "strange implements of Death" in firefighters hands and cia/hit men/assasins and then long guns has now been reduced to a couple of seconds of video footage that didn't even occur on 9/11.
I can't imagine going through life seeing everyday occurences and assigning deep dark conspiracies to them.
Take a look at your minute maid and concentrate.

You should have that mole looked at also...could be precancerous.

[RayUbinger]

100. "Filler," in a DOCUMENTARY?

You mean STAGED FOOTAGE? You think they filmed Tony at the real Gorumba funeral, then noticed they hadn't gotten a shot of the truck passing him (but they somehow shot Tony right before and right after)? And they decided that made the footage unsatisfying incomplete, and so then they RECONSTRUCTED the truck passing him? Yet nowhere does the movie admit any disclaimer about using re-enactments?

The following is the link to my DU thread about that funeral:
http://tinyurl.com/dmgo8


Ray Ubinger
http://911foreknowledge.com/funeral/index.htm

[RayUbinger]

89. Tony and the Gloveless Exit

piobair writes:

> How would Tony wating for the gloves changed anything?

It would have revealed that Tony is not a real fireman, but an actor or agent of some kind. It would have revealed that he did not really go to WTC and do 7+ hours of heroic search/rescue attempts.

The key is, he sent THE CAMERAMAN (Gedeon Naudet) to fetch the gloves. Ergo, Tony NOT waiting for the gloves got himself off-camera. Of course Gedeon DID FIND the gloves (he claims; we never see them), but DARN THE LUCK, he LOST TONY.

Then begins the drawn-out suspense of Waiting For Tony, the last man from Duane St. Firehouse to come back. NONE of them died. (Except why don't we ever see Chief Pfeifer come back?)

Why was a "box of medical gloves" worth sending someone away for, but not worth waiting for?

Nowhere in the entire movie is Fony Fdny Tony seen doing any actual firefighter work. Standing around in a uniform doesn't count. Neither does spraying water on a car that's not on fire. He is does not even appear anywhere in the footage from the training at the boot camp where they allegedly discovered him.

The movie is at "911 Televised Version" at
http://thewebfairy.com/911/popcorn


Ray Ubinger
http://911foreknowledge.com

[piobair]

80. plain clothes cop

Nope. Still not odd. We see them all the time. Can you go by a fire and not stop to watch? Most of the cops are friends with the firefighters.
Maybe you should spend some more time studying the fire service. You probably have a volunteer or combination dept. nearby that you could join. {and no...I don't know where you live.}

Good luck

[MrSammo1]

63. Good for you Spooked!

It gets easy to spot the CIA shills after a while!

;o)

[piobair]

70. cia shill

If I was a CIA shill I'd put Ray on the payroll. He does more to turn people away from alternative theories and towards the official version than anyone I've seen.

[RayUbinger]

72. A second camera inside the WTC-1 lobby

Just one of many things demonstrated by me and contrary to the official version and ignored by piobair.


We see the same specific motion by the same unknown man (I call him Mr. Backofhead) in two different clips:
http://911foreknowledge.com/judge.htm
He vigorously thrusts his right arm into the space in front of Chief Pfeifer where they are about to "find" Father Judge's body. There are TWO VIDEO CLIPS of it. The official story says there was only one camera there, the one operated by Jules Naudet.


Some other things you ignore in this thread:

the stiff sharply pointed rod on the thing you say is a walkie talkie

my repeated request for a quote from ONE witness to Father Judge giving anyone Last Rites that day

my repeated request for a quote from ONE witness to anyone's determination of the cause of Judge's death

the contradiction between the Naudet movie which explicitly narrates that Chief Pfeifer missed the carrying of Judge on the street, vs. the still photo (which ALSO appears in the movie) which shows him right there

the spook in bulletproof vest at the bottom of
http://911foreknowledge.com/soldier2.htm
which was filmed mere minutes after the 1st Hit

the soldier (who I think looks like the same guy I think is impersonating a fireman) who with some nearby cops pushes down on a "victim"
http://911foreknowledge.com/soldier3.htm


Ray Ubinger
http://911foreknowledge.com

[piobair]

77. You've demonstrated nothing

As long as you are so closely associated with holograms and shape shifting chem trail sprayers then I see no reason to discuss your bizarre theories regarding the FDNY or Father Judge. Hope the weather is nice on your planet.

[RayUbinger]

91. Two vids of same action implies two cameras, implies LYING NAUDETS

You're real good at presuming there's no evidence for S11 holography and then ignoring it when it's brought to your attention. Like a 3-D black flying object becoming a 2-D gray shadow becoming invisible becoming a 2-D white light.
http://thewebfairy.com/911/slideshow/blackbird

And apparently your definition of bizarre theories extends to the common sense idea that the same camera can't video the same thing at the same time from two different angles?

That action is, Mr. Backofhead's vigorous right-arm thrust into the space in front of Chief Pfeifer--where they are about to "find" Father Judge, and while a left hand slides down Chief Pfeifer's back.

One camera we're told about. Jules Naudet's. The other was evidently in the hands of some fireman with Jules inside the WTC-1 Lobby where Father Judge died.

This undermines the Naudets' claim to have exclusive inside-WTC footage from 9/11, and yet they included it in their own movie, and it appears nowhere else. So they're not INNOCENTLY misinforming us that they had the only such camera, they're actively lying.

Similarly they lied when they said Gedeon Naudet (their other cameraman) was still back at the firehouse at 8:46. In truth their second camera was at Church&Murray, filming pedestrian reaction to the 1st Hit.
http://911foreknowledge.com/bravenewworld.htm


Ray Ubinger
http://911foreknowledge.com

[piobair]

92. no evidence

Despite your claims,you have no evidence of this holograph technology you say is being used. Just as an aside, assuming it exists and was being used,what would be the purpose in having it make unidentifiable shapes that you say go back and forth from 2 to 3 dimensions?

I'm finished discussing your loon theories with regard to the supposed murders of Father Judge and Firefighter Michael Gorumba by members of the FDNY. If you feel that this "evidence" is so strong the why don't you contact the Gorumba family and tell them instead of posting this drivel here. I at least showed your "theory" to some firefighters. If they thought one of their own was murdered you can bet there would be some noise made. If you feel so strongly then present this evidence to the family. If you don't then you either aren't as convinced as you say or you are simply a coward.

[RayUbinger]

95. Ignored evidence

> You have no evidence of this holograph technology.

How else besides exotic optical technology do you explain this thing that goes from 3-D black flying object to 2-D gray shadow to invisible to 2-D white light, all filmed from less than a block away, which you totally ignored the first two or three times I brought it up?

http://thewebfairy.com/911/slideshow/blackbird

> Just as an aside, assuming it exists and was being used,what would be the purpose in having it make unidentifiable shapes that you say go back and forth from 2 to 3 dimensions?

No purpose about that, that's just how they are when they're not activated. Or so I speculate. I speculate these are the default versions of the images, in a powered-on but unactivated state. These are not for show. They are difficult to spot. Perhaps they are monitoring things. But they are glimpses of the unexplained technology. Also see them casting double and triple images of themselves, and white shadow dots, and shadow dots toward the sun, and cloaking in a fraction of a second, at
http://911foreknowledge.com/rayswhatzits.htm
http://tinyurl.com/63zle
http://thewebfairy.com/911/newwhatzits


> I'm finished discussing your loon theories with regard to the supposed murders of Father Judge and Firefighter Michael Gorumba by members of the FDNY.

As I said before, I think MOST S11 firefighters ARE TRUE HEROES. I believe it's statistically likely that that includes all of the FDNY members whom you happen to know. The ones I'm after seem to have been plants, infiltrators, trained in firefighting only to the extent to make their covers believable. James Hanlon and Bill Walsh are known TV actors. Rookie Tony in particular is a clear fake, because he not only isn't shown doing any firefighter work, but they write plot devices to get him off camera, and he gets a SINGING credit at the end. This is probably nothing like the real, honorable, courageous FDNY members you know.

Sorry you're bailing out before we ever heard you explain how there got to be a second camera (the first being Jules Naudet's) among the "firefighters" inside the WTC-1 Lobby. As proven by the two video clips of the same thrust of Mr. Backofhead's right arm.
http://911foreknowledge.com/judge.htm


> If you feel so strongly then present this evidence to the family.

If I knew how to contact them I would. They're not infallible, of course, so if they're emotionally able to look at my work they might still hold a mistaken conclusion (as might I). I am interested in asking some questions of Michael Gorumba's (former) girlfriend in particular.


Ray Ubinger
http://911foreknowledge.com

[philb]

71. was there a suggestion as to what hit him?

If someone fell on him that would have been obvious.
Is there a witness to what occurred?

[RayUbinger]

74. Nope, no such suggestion by any quoted witness yet

In the Naudet movie, Chief Pfeifer and Eddie Fahey both simply report that Judge had "no pulse"--period--as if that explains anything. Piobair's several witness quotations don't even give us that much. Heck, most of piobair's witness quotations make no reference to personally seeing Judge at all on that day. They are merely witnesses to 9/11 per se, NOT to FATHER JUDGE'S ACTIVITIES on 9/11.

The whole well-known version that Judge was giving someone Last Rites that day, appears to be TOTAL FICTION! I didn't realize this until after starting this thread and seeing all of piobair's witness reports fall so totally short of substantiating anything like that. It seems to have started in the media's imagination, not in a witness report.


Ray Ubinger
http://911foreknowledge.com

[RayUbinger]

56. New video excerpt published

See second video excerpt from BOTTOM of page
http://911foreknowledge.com/judge.htm

Naudet DVD clock time 0:55:15.
Same general time and place as the Father Judge footage.
Inside WTC-1 Lobby shortly after the demolition of WTC-2.

Middle vicinity of picture: long gun barrel with aiming stud on end and smoke wisp coming out?

Farther right: pistol being handed off, then hidden?


Ray Ubinger
http://911foreknowledge.com
NAUDET 911: THE ART OF THE MOCK-YOU-DRAMA

[piobair]

59. gun

Honest to God Ray, you are driving me nuts.I had promised myself I would just let you go spouting your nonsense unchallenged as it seems you are not getting much support for your "analysis". The long barreled gun is the strap of an SCBA for Christ sake. You can even see it swing and bend as the Firefighter moves. If that's a gun then it's the same one Bugs Bunny used to shoot Elmer Fudd by bending the barrel back.
Th Th Th Th that's all folks!

[RayUbinger]

62. Yeah everyone knows what the strap of an SCBA for Christ sake is

So don't even bother posting a reference picture of one. Or if you do, make sure it doesn't have the same sighting-stud-looking thingie on the end, nor the same look of a hole in the end of a STRAIGHT tube.

While you're at it, don't bother posting any witnesses to Father Judge giving anyone Last Rites that day. If you SAY something, it MUST be true.


Ray Ubinger
http://911foreknowledge.com

[piobair]

64. scba

Sorry Ray. I just thought that someone who posts so prominently on FD issues would have at least a rudimentary knowledge of FD equipment. SCBA..self contained breathing apparatus. The fire fighter has the tank slung over his shoulder and the waist strap is swinging loose. The "aiming stud" is part of the belt mounted regulator. You can also see part of the buckle at the end. As he walks you can see the whole thing swing.

As soon as you start getting some of the big stuff right I'll start looking at shadows,reflections and other minutiae.

[RayUbinger]

66. Fair enough on SCBA, now what's so trivial about a SECOND camera

and do you finally agree to either abandon the story that Judge gave anyone last rites that day, or else quote an witness to it?

And since when does a handheld radio have a SHARPLY POINTED antenna, like the thing I say resembles a Cattleprod?


In the meantime I do concede you have a valid, experienced opinion on the thing that still looks like a long gun in MY opinino, and which I still don't see bending.


Ray Ubinger
http://911foreknowledge.com

[spooked]

68. Horrifying to think, but I believe Father Judge was TRAMPLED

by the firemen in their rush to get up the escalators...

[RayUbinger]

75. That would leave a number of things unexplained

like the "perfectly intact" condition his body was reported to be in according to Jennifer Senior in New York Magazine,
which is consistent with the three known photos of his corpse being carried down the street
(see Post #25 for photos)

and the failure of any of the firemen on hand to report that they trampled anyone

and the vigorous right-arm thrust of Mr. Backofhead into the space in front of Chief Pfeifer while a left hand, apparently Judge's, slides down Pfeifer's back


Ray Ubinger
http://911foreknowledge.com/judge.htm

[MakeItSo]

93. second-hand story

I know someone who knows a NYPD fireman who was on at the WTC scene on 9/11. This fireman told my friend that the true account of Father Judge's death is that a person who jumped out of one of the buildings fell on him and crushed him.

According to whois lookup, The 911foreknowledge site is operated by thewebfairy.com, run by someone based in Chicago named Rosalee Grable. She's the brain behind the hologram theory, that missiles -- not airplanes -- hit the WTS, and that these missiles were shrouded by Star Trek caliber holograms.

If the hologram theory isn't disinformation intentionally designed to throw off legitimate investigations of the real story behind the 9/11, it should be.

Likewise, The 911foreknowledge site also seems intended to introduce a bunch of wild-eyed, confusing myths into the debate to water down legitimate questions about the official account of just what happened that day.

Ms. Grable deserves a paycheck from either the CIA, The Weekly World News, or both.

[MakeItSo]

94. Ray, when did you learn about holograms?

I noticed that you entered the US Army right after college and left as a captain. Did they do a lot of stuff on holograms when you were there?

Can I Ask?

[RayUbinger]

96. Not until I noticed the exotic optical effects in some S11 videos

MakeItSo writes:

> I noticed that you entered the US Army right after college

Eight months after.

> and left as a captain.

True. Commended and honorably discharged.

> Did they do a lot of stuff on holograms when you were there?

No, they didn't do any around me that I'm aware of.

> Can I Ask?

Yes, obviously.


Ray Ubinger
http://911foreknowledge.com

[RayUbinger]

97. Yep that's second hand all right

MakeItSo writes:

> I know someone who knows a NYPD fireman who was on at the WTC scene on 9/11. This fireman told my friend that the true account of Father Judge's death is that a person who jumped out of one of the buildings fell on him and crushed him.

Or maybe third hand. Come back when you can quote a witness directly. The earlier posts in this thread clarify that even the official story had to backpedal, to admit he died inside WTC-1, otherwise the story would glaringly contradict the Naudet footage.

There has been no quoted witness that Judge gave anyone Last Rites that day. There has been no quoted witness that he died outside either Tower. There has been no quoted witness to assessing his cause of death. You just come here late to this thread and regurgitate the official pablum like we haven't already been over it. See especially Post #27, "Scrutinize the saintmychal page".

> According to whois lookup, The 911foreknowledge site is operated by thewebfairy.com, run by someone based in Chicago named Rosalee Grable.

True. She's the excerpter and publisher of my findings about the Naudet-FDNY Snuff Film. She also contributed some finds of her own, specifically the pages
The Particular Firemen Recalled
and
Second Hit Setup Shot

> She's the brain behind the hologram theory, that missiles -- not airplanes -- hit the WTS, and that these missiles were shrouded by Star Trek caliber holograms.

How else besides exotic optical technology would you explain giant hundred-mile-an-hour bird shadows cast onto the open sky, and shadows cast toward the sun, and shadows composed of white light, and orbs cloaking in the blink of an eye, and 3-D black flying objects becoming 2-D gray shadows becoming invisible becoming 2-D white lights?
I can show you examples of any of these that you want, but not if you're going to keep presuming that holotech is impossible on its face and deserving only to be ridiculed. That attitude is your right, but if you keep it up I'm just gonna keep asking how you explain the stuff that your ridicule isn't explaining, since ridicule explains nothing.

Since you seem interested in my background I'll share that I for one never took unidentified flying objects seriously until S11.


Ray Ubinger
http://911foreknowledge.com

[adolfo]

101. Too fuzzy

The pictures are too fuzzy to base a theory on. I'd love to discuss conspiracies as anyone else but it would be a disservice.

[RayUbinger]

102. Rub the fuzz out of your eyes and look again

There are clearly two different videos of a right-arm thrust by the dude I've dubbed Mr. Backofhead. And that thrust remains unexplained, even if there had been only one video of it. And it does not look like a benevolent action. It would not be part of a resuscitation attempt, because you don't do CPR on a person by jabbing with one arm while the person is being held up off the ground. Moreover, the second video of the arm thrust implies A SECOND CAMERA, despite that the movie's claim that Jules Naudet had the ONLY camera there.

Also they clearly refer to Judge as an *it* while carrying his corpse. "Put it down, put it down, put it down!"

There is also something that looks more like a cattleprod (with an unsegmented, metallic, sharply pointed rod) than a walkie talkie or other piece of fireman's equipment.
http://tinyurl.com/7kuqx


Ray Ubinger
http://911foreknowledge.com/judge.htm