The State of the Forum

[DulceDecorum]

Regulars to this forum know that we have always had heated debates here.
The WTC, Pentagon and Pennsylvania threads in particular, have witnessed many differing viewpoints and strongly held opinons have been vigorously defended.
Of late however,
we have seen honest discourse on this forum disintegrate
solely because of the actions of a very small number of posters.

Those who participate in the General Discussion Forum are very well aware of the havoc disruptive behavior can cause if permitted to continue unchecked.
At this moment,
to rectify the situation there,
additional rules for posting on GD are being drafted and amended.
Hopefully, once GD rules are finalized,
the 9/11 forum will be next in line for intensive care.

I propose that in the meantime, we get a jump start in making life easier for our mods and ourselves,
by coming up with some suggestions for
a code of conduct for participants on
the 9/11, Military Affairs and Terrorism Forum.
I am hoping that this Code of Conduct shall restore the 9/11 forum to its glorious luster.


I will go first.
I propose that
Anyone who posts five messages which are deleted, in one single thread, be tombstoned upon the six such message.

At that point, both the thread and the forum are being disrupted.
Yes, six posts in one single thread may appear to be a high number but then again, it does permit someone to have a really bad day and survive, while at the same time it strongly encourages posters to either respect this forum or be dishonourably discharged for conduct unbecoming.
In the case of threads which have multiple parts, only that particular part shall be considered. Bygones shall be bygones.

Next......

[LARED]

1. I have a suggestion

Read the rules before jumping in the pool, then -

You post stuff you like.

Other people post what they like.

If anyone thinks someone else is out of line, hit the alert button.

BTW, have you every condsidered why you are the one that seems to get no respect.

[DulceDecorum]

4. The problem is

that the rules are NOT being obeyed.
Hence the high number of deleted posts.

In addition to this, some regulars here feel as if they are being stalked by a highly abusive group of people.

Futhermore, many of the posts on certain threads,
are simply opinions concerning the previous poster's character or lack thereof.
In other words, the points being made by the original poster is not the issue. The second poster is only concerned with letting the world know just how much they hate the first poster.
This is making EVERYONE here VERY uncomfortable and is actually preventing MANY MANY members of DU from participating in this forum.

THAT is the issue, Lared.
And the situation has gone WAY beyond simply hitting the ALERT button.
Furthermore, a thread becomes unworkable when almost one fifth of it consists of abusive or deleted posts.

We need to ensure that this forum is a safe neighbourhood.
And that is why I believe that we need a Code of Conduct and a hobnailed boot on each mod's foot.

[LARED]

5. DD

Let me make a few points. First I agree that everyone should be treated respectfully. But keep in mind that peoples perceptions about others in the forum are formed by what they post. My state of mind about you was drastically changed after the last Pentagon thread.

Let me explain why.

The point you were trying to make about Pentagon victims not having hair was not exactly well stated. It took many posts to discover that you believe that burn victims were props in a huge conspiracy. Although you may not believe this, your position regarding this is viewed as well, well outside of the realm of reality or credibility. No one that I am aware off possibly believes that your theory made any sense. You are clearly entitled to your opinions, but in a forum like this people get frustrated at what appears to be willful ignorance. I and a number of others attempted to show why you were off base, but you choose to ignore this input.

You originally stated that there was no evidence that any of the victims lost hair. When shown pictures that people did in fact lose hair you shifted to the position that none of the victims lost enough hair or they really didn't lose hair because we can't seem to understand black womens grooming habits. Then when shown evidence that people lost lots of hair you again shifted to the position that they didn't lose all their hair so it must still be a cover-up. In other words you refused to accept the reality of your position. It was not opinion like so many other issues it is a fact that these people were burned and are not props for some type of cover-up.

The people you exhibited are people that were horribly injured. They deserve respect and should not be tools in you theories. I found this particularly distasteful.

When you then posted a new thread about concrete, I and it seems others had had enough of what became viewed as one more pointless thread about something that was trivial. You might even say you had become the disruptor. So people unloaded. Yes they could choose to ignore the thread. Yes, they were rude and sarcastic. But grow up, get a thicker skin. Even though you continually imply that my credentials are made up I just ignore your comments and don't bother with the alert button.


To the MODS, I am trying to follow the rules here, If this in not appropriate then remove. I will not sweat it a minute.

[DulceDecorum]

6. Just the facts

would have been sufficient.

Lared, this issue concerns much much more than your feelings about a certain topic.
The problem here is the way in which certain posters ROUTINELY go around treating the general population of the 9:11 Forum.

Look at what you yourself are saying to me here.

You are explaining away the reason behind your latest round of personal attacks directed against me, DulceDecorum.
Now, I did not post ANYTHING that was not easily verifiable on the Pentagon 4 thread.
Nor were the ISSUES presented ever truly discussed or dismissed.
Furthermore, that thread is STILL open.

All that did happen is what is happening AGAIN here and now.

We are back to discussing Lared's personal opinion of me, DulceDecorum.
And you are basically saying,
if I am reading you correctly,
that I, DESERVE to be on the recieving end
of a barrage of coordinated and vicious attacks
BECAUSE
I have posted INCONTROVERTIBLE facts on the 9/11 Forum.

I have an opinion of you Lared, and I am sure that you can hazard a guess as to its nature.
But look closely:
when you start a thread, I do not immediately go on the offensive in the way you do to me.
If I EVER go after you at all,
it is ONLY to discuss what you are saying or have said and to demonstrate why it does or does not work.
That is what DISCUSSION and DEBATE are all about.

Regulars to this forum will recall that Dulcedecorum was uncharacteristically absent for several weeks after we moved to the new server.
I returned to posting after being soundly abused by some creature I had difficulty identifying. And that poster cannot try to hide behind burn victims as you are now attempting to do.

Nationally, we have witnessed a case where a man said something that a certain clique disliked, whereupon his wife and her colleagues found themselves seriously damaged.
This is PRECISELY the type of behavior we are seeing on the 9/11 Forum and I say it need to come to an abrupt halt.
NOW.

The average DU member is now AFRAID
to post on this forum for fear of incuring the wrath of
the abusive clique that has taken up residence here.
That is the real reason why something need to be done.
And to be done NOW.

One small disruptive and highly abusive clique is stifling the voice of the Democratic Underground.
We cannot tolerate this.
And we will not.

[Robb]

7. If you feel stifled,

...You should take it up with the mods. I've seen nothing that would in any way limit your, or anyone else's, speech here -- although I might have missed something. Also, projecting your feelings onto the "average DUer" is a broad stroke, again something I haven't seen.

As grandpa said, if you don't want people to call you a monkey, stop wearing a gorilla suit. There is a procedure already in place here for dealing with the odd maledicent.

[DulceDecorum]

9. This is yet ANOTHER example

of what the problem is.

"If you feel stifled, you should take it up with the mods."
"As grandpa said, if you don't want people to call you a monkey, stop wearing a gorilla suit."

The Democratic Underground does not exist solely for amusement of a small clique of highly abusive people.
The 9/11 Forum is a place where ALL REGISTERED MEMBERS can post facts and opinions on 9/11, Military Affairs and Terrorism.

If the actions of a small group has resulted in ANYONE feeling stifled,
then the behavior exhibited by said group needs to END.
NOW.
THEY are the reason why we are feeling stifled.
And I am NOT alone in this.

Blaming the victim does not cut it, Robb.
Action needs to be taken AGAINST the perpetrators.
When certain persons began harming Muslim women who went out of their homes onto the streets, Benazir Bhutto put all the men under curfew. When they protested,
she explained that it was NOT the women who who were perpetrating the assaults,
it was the men.
Similarly,
it is NOT the average member of the Democratic Underground who has made this place forbidding,
it is a small group of very abusive people
who consistently make personal attacks and demean anyone who posts facts,
and most especially incontrovertable facts that oppose their viewpoint.
These are the people who ARE the problem.

If we were to go along with you, Robb, then the 9/11 Forum would remain as toxic as it currently is and the clique will weild even more power here.
We cannot allow this.
And we will not allow this type of behavior to continue against the innocent members of the Democratic Underground.

ALL those who cannot or will not cease and desist from indulging in behavior that is against the Rules
that have been drafted and put into effect by the owners and operators of the Democratic Underground
should leave the Board
to those who ARE able and willing to abide by the rules.
PERIOD.

You will notice that DulceDecorum does not write nor enforce the rules around here. But I do insist on being treated like a human being and NOT as a monkey, thank you very much.

[DulceDecorum]

10. This is yet ANOTHER example

Of the problem.

"the points being made by the original poster."

Such a post is demeaning and just plain nasty.
It contributes NOTHING to the discussion. All it does is to let you know that acerbic detests the person who made the original post.

This type of comment stifles debate and discourse and is the reason why the 9:11 Forum is now as welcoming as a tank of pirhana.

This type of comment is a prime example of
Conduct Unbecoming a DU Member.

[acerbic]

11. This looks like an example of massive pre-emptive whining making

...the moderators allow personal attacks by the whiner.

[DulceDecorum]

12. Conduct Unbecoming

Do you have anything to say about the state of the forum or are you just going to continue making personal and hateful comments about me?

acerbic, I do not know what to say to you other than that
the 9:11 forum used to be a place where facts could be discussed.

All YOU ever seem to do is show us how much hatred and venom you have towards some of us.
And this type of behavior emanating from you - and others - is what is destroying the 9:11 Forum.

Please make an effort to stay on topic
and say something CIVIL
concerning the manner in which posters on this forum should conduct themselves.

And please cease and desist with the personal vendetta.

[RH]

14. To improve the Forum

Go away.

Or take a vote on it.

Who felt any need at all for a pathetically priggish lecture, or the offensively censorious interference?

:boring:

Hate?

No.

Wrong again.

Pity.

:nopity:

[DulceDecorum]

16. 'Nuff said.

Who wants to come here when this is the type of "welcome" on receives?

RH,
the Democratic Underground is a message board for Democrats and other progressives.
Can you state one Democratic,
or progessive
position or ideal to which you adhere?

And can you please tell us,
DEFINITVELY
whence you got the authority to tell me to
"GO AWAY."

If you look at the bottom of this page,
and EVERY SINGLE OTHER PAGE
here on the Democratic Underground,
it says, and I quote:

"Important Notices:
By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC."

It does not appear that you are at all interested in holding up your end of the deal, RH.
Or did I misunderstand you when you posted this:
"Who felt any need at all for a pathetically priggish lecture, or the offensively censorious interference?"

This type of behavior is what has reduced the participation on this forum to nil.
This type of behavior must come to an end.
NOW.

[RH]

17. one Democratic position or ideal to which I adhere

Free speech.

I happen to have an opinion. If you prefer not to respect it, that's up to you, except of course for the fully deserved responses to the flagrant hypocrisy.

[DulceDecorum]

18. I am MOST pleased

to see you go on record as adhering to the principle of free speech.
I know that the Democrats and progressives adhere to the Constitution
and somehow I had the impression that conservatives did as well.
I really do not understand the value of claiming hypocrisy
which is a trait only a compassionate conservative would value.
No matter.

FREEDOM OF SPEECH is precisely what I am trying to restore to the 9:11 Forum.

Your opinion,
and contribution to the ISSUES presented
is respected.
We are only arguing that the posts of others,
be equally respected and
that their authors NOT be subjected to HARRASSMENT
and STALKING.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/forums/attacks.html
That is all.

RH, as you well know,
this forum has been taken hostage
by a small group of very highly absive people
who REFUSE to allow anyone who is not a member of their own small clique,
the right to speak freely on any issue pertaining to 9:11, Military Affairs, or Terrorism.

RH,
since you are registered member,
WHAT EXACTLY do you propose we do
to END
the frequent and venomous personal attacks
on the average law abiding registered members of the Democratic Underground.

Incidentally RH, have you read the rules yet?
What do you think of them anyway?
And what is your disposition on my initial proposition that a poster should be booted off the forum once they achieve their sixth deleted message in one single thread?

[LARED]

13. Just the facts?

You are explaining away the reason behind your latest round of personal attacks directed against me, DulceDecorum.

I wasn't explaining away anything. I was merely stating my opinion.

Now, I did not post ANYTHING that was not easily verifiable on the Pentagon 4 thread. Nor were the ISSUES presented ever truly discussed or dismissed. Furthermore, that thread is STILL open.

The issue is not the veracity of what facts you post (although IMO some of them are questionable) It's the conclusions you draw from them.

BECAUSE I have posted INCONTROVERTIBLE facts on the 9/11 Forum.

Again it not the facts that people attack it's your implied conclusions.

I have an opinion of you Lared, and I am sure that you can hazard a guess as to its nature.

Not really. I don't care what your opinion of me is. Never gave it a thought.


I returned to posting after being soundly abused by some creature I had difficulty identifying. And that poster cannot try to hide behind burn victims as you are now attempting to do.

If I could figure out what you are saying I might be able to reply.

Nationally, we have witnessed a case where a man said something that a certain clique disliked, whereupon his wife and her colleagues found themselves seriously damaged.
This is PRECISELY the type of behavior we are seeing on the 9/11 Forum and I say it need to come to an abrupt halt.
NOW.

Stop being a drama queen for crying out loud. You are an anonymous poster. You cannot suffer any damage.

The average DU member is now AFRAID to post on this forum for fear of incuring the wrath of the abusive clique that has taken up residence here. That is the real reason why something need to be done.
And to be done NOW.

Really? I have my doubts DU members fear stepping into the 9/11 forum. Also when did you become the spokesperson for DU members?

One small disruptive and highly abusive clique is stifling the voice of the Democratic Underground. We cannot tolerate this. And we will not.

Who is we, and who is this disruptive and highly abusive clique?

[DulceDecorum]

15. I rest my case

This thread is about the discourteous manner in which a small but highly abusive group of people have made, and are making,
the 9:11 Forum a place that is off-limits
to the overwhelming majority
of registered members of the Democratic Undergound.

The thread is NOT about DulceDecorum.

The thread specifically asks for ways in which the 9:11 forum can be made more user friendly
to the average registered member of the Democratic Underground
who does not wish to face a posse of persons specializing in personal attacks
and the derailment of ANY and ALL honest discourse
on 9/11, Military Affairs or Terrorism.

It is really an eye-opener to see what has been posted on the 9:11 Forum today.
Practically nothing.
And yet I am absolutely certain
that if we were to check how many hits we have received today,
they still number in the hundreds
although that number has been, and is, dropping.

People are AFRAID to post here
and they are also SICK and TIRED
of the highly abusive antics of a small but highly vocal group of people
who have turned this forum into their private hunting ground.
This type of behavior is not only offensive,
but it is also against the rules of the Democratic Underground.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules.html

Furthermore, the response to this particular thread is most telling.

It would appear, at first glance,
that DulceDecorum is the only one troubled by the current state of affairs on the 9:11 Forum.
Every single response to this thread so far has been in favor of continuing
what I claim,
is a poisoned atmosphere.
However, truth be told, I, DulceDecorum,
am one of the last few remaining voices on the 9:11 Forum
who REFUSES to be silenced
by the small and highly abusive clique that has taken up residence here.
And the proof of THAT is the absolute DEARTH of posts on this Forum coming from anyone OTHER than myself, or the small but highly abusive clique.

NOBODY dares to post on this forum anymore.
They know that if they do not tow the line of the small but highly abusive clique, they will be subjected to the same type treatment that DulceDecorum and others here have faced.

So once again,
I ask,

What can be done to make the 9:11 Forum a place in which the average member of the Democratic Underground FEELS FREE to post their questions and opinions on 9;11, Military Affairs or Terrorism?

ESPECIALLY where newbies and those who are only just now trying to understand exactly what happened on 9:11,
feel comfortable visiting?
Sarcasm and personal attacks do NOT endear this forum to our members.
This type of behavior needs to be brought to an abrupt halt.
NOW.

[acerbic]

8. Thanks for this bit of humor:

the points being made by the original poster

LOL funny! :-) :bounce:

[Robb]

2. I've got one

How about if only one person is responding to every post on a thread, over and over, we just feel sorry for them? :)

[DulceDecorum]

3. What do you think should be done

about that Robb?

[Lithos]

19. Locking

It is indeed an issue that some people here do lack civility for those who express a difference of opinion. Sad because civility is an extremely important skill for this forum considering the many theories expressed here and the wide ranging opinions therein. While you are free to disagree, you are still expected to keep your comments purely on the subject at hand and not about or directed at the poster.

I would strongly recommend that people also remember that this forum is open purely at the whim of Skinner, DU's owner. As posted in the DU rules, you do have the right to leave if you feel you cannot abide by the civility guidelines mentioned in the DU message board rules

http://www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules.html

YOUR FREEDOM TO LEAVE

All visitors to the Democratic Underground website are here voluntarily. Nobody is forcing you to post on this message board. The administrators try their best to be fair, and to make Democratic Underground a welcoming place for progressives who like Democratic Underground and who want to be here. If you don't like Democratic Underground, or the members of Democratic Underground, or the way we run Democratic Underground, then we strongly suggest that you exercise your right to leave. If we decide that you don't like this place very much, then we reserve the right to show you the door ourselves.


Lithos
FA/NS Moderator
Democratic Underground