Okay? What are the odds?

[ewagner]

Just read a post on the questions about 9/11 and something struck me as a little strange.

I'm not generally a tinfoil-hatter but it seems remarkable to me that 19 hijackers all slipped through security with boxcutters and other weapons without a single one being detected. They left from two different airporst with different security types and presumably went through different check points.

What are the odds of all 19 getting through security?

[Caution]

1. Box cutters weren't generally considered a terrifying weapon

There is a very good reason they chose that as their weapon. Most retail employees have one or two of these things. My mom used to keep four or five in her purse at all times just so she'd have one if another got lost. If you have ever seen one they are basically a holder for a razor blade. a pocket knif is actually a lot more deadly looking than one of these things and it was never even that big a deal to carry a pocket knife on board. The fact that they used box cutters just goes to show how well prepared they were and how well they knew the security procedures and items which would get flagged at the airport. Additionally, it is possible that only one hijacker per plane actually carried these on board and simply distributed them to his accomplices at the appropriate time.

[DuctapeFatwa]

4. Boxcutters were banned on planes in 1994

Butane lighters are allowed on planes today.

Draw your own conclusions.

[Homer12]

2. Fifty Percent Chance

1 Hijacker w/ 2 chances to get caught with the box cutter, so that is a 2:1 ratio of chance = 50%

I'm sure some airport security even saw the box cutters, but no one thought they'd be used as weapons.

[DK666]

3. Thats because.

In the terr*ist cell structure there are planners, support and soldiers. The support and planners reconed the security and bypassed it. Then gave the soliders their orders. Look even now the airport security is rife with problems and cannot be corrected. I carried a large set if metal compases onto a plane and I wasnt stopped.

If you want to discuss terr*ist cell structure we could do that.

[ameriphile]

5. You're making some assumptions here

For example, each of the 19 terrorists may not have been carrying a weapon through security. Perhaps some of them carried two or three knives, while others carried none.

Also, we (the public) don't know how many different check points the hijackers passed through.

No tinfoil detected, BTW.

[ewagner]

6. Thanks

I also agree that there are a lot of variables and a lot of "unknowns" here.

What tripped my trigger was remembering flying out of our little Central Wisconsin Airport before 9/11 and having my little, tiny pocket knife (which I use for cleaning my pipe ) taken away....and believe me these security people weren't exactly allstars!

[Llyr21]

11. What do you mean by little tiny?

I have carried a <2" buck utility knife for the last 15 years on scores of flights to many destinations, and the closest to a problem I ever had was that whenever I put it in my attache case, they decided to open it up and look (I presume to see how big it was), and those were also the ONLY times they ever opened my attache case. As long as I put it in the tray, they never looked twice at it.

It is my understing that utility knives of that size or smaller were officially ALLOWED on planes pior to 9/11/01

[Snow]

7. Pretty good, actually -

I read somewhere within the last week that some gov guys checking security - maybe from the GAO? - tried to get through security at half-a-dozen unnamed major airports with box cutters in their possession, and succeeded......

[Brucey]

8. The odds are

100% because it happened.

[smallprint]

9. i think there is still some controversy

over whether there were in fact 19 hijackers at all... they are missing from the passenger lists, there are no security videos of them in their departure airports (the famous video stills of Atta are from Portland, not Boston), and at least one cell phone call reported 6 terrorists on board, not 5...

so, my point is that they may not have gone through conventional security at all, whoever "they" actually were...

please feel free to correct my info if i am mistaken

[ewagner]

10. That's one of the questions

I've managed to shuffle off to the back of my mind. I can't even begin to think about the alternatives.........

in truth, I'm still trying to get my head around the official version of the events, but there are sooooo damned many questions that need to be answered.

[demodewd]

12. Another question(s)

....that should be asked is if they(the alleged hijackers) did have boxcutters how effectual would that be in subduing 50 passengers? I can wip off my belt in about 2 seconds..and start flailing. The passengers would have had lap tops,bags,small luggage etc. If the passengers were to subdue 2-3 of the hijackers then who has the edge? And the reports of stewardesses having their throats slit. Hey...I'm out of my seat along with 15-20 men my size or bigger and were going after them. Also....historically if a hijacker has a weapon and holds a hostage the pilot will ask them where they wish to land and oblige.How much resistance would a pilot give to hijackers intending on taking over the piloting of the plane? How much resistance would the hijackers meet if they were met by both pilot and co-pilot at the cockpit door? Don't cockpits carry a hatchet as standard equipment? And what could the pilot do in detering the hijackers through navigation? Tilt the plane? Make it very difficult for them to stand in the aisles? Quickly ascend or descend?

[Llyr21]

13. My brother's a commercial Airbus Pilot, and..

He doesn't buy it for that very reason, out of four crews, not one of them just pushed the yoke forward and pulled it back quickly? That action would put anyone not seatbelted into the ceiling and most likely knock them out cold. at least out of commission to gain control. Further even if they did KILL the crew, it would be nearly impossible to pull a body out of the crew (pilot and co-pilot) seats owing to the cramped situation.

[ewagner]

15. Two excellent points.

That action would put anyone not seatbelted into the ceiling and most likely knock them out cold. at least out of commission to gain control....
snip
it would be nearly impossible to pull a body out of the crew (pilot and co-pilot) seats owing to the cramped situation.

I've been in one of those cockpits and it isn't easy getting in or out....and...it would take a long time to pull a body out of one of those seats.....

Also the aircraft could have been decompressed very rapidly from the cockpit.

this whole thing is very unsettling.....I'll have to admit I didn't think of the two points you raised

[dflprincess]

14. According to the widow of one of the passengers

on the plane that crashed in Pennsylvania (I get my flight numbers mixed up). Deena Burnett says her husband, Tom, made 4 short phone calls to her from the plane. She made transcripts of those calls. Tom mentioned that at least one of the hijackers had a gun.

When I went through security in August 2001, I noticed that the person minding the x-ray machine was to busy talking to a coworker to even look at the screen when my purse when through. I could have gotton anything through.