Leading Japanese Left Newpaper Abandons 9/11 Truth After David Ray Griffin Visits

[Bolo Boffin]

http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=4378211&postcount=1

Hmm. Perhaps we should start suppporting Dr. Griffin in his little bullshit spreading seminars. It seems to have backfired when he visited Japan recently...

I had not made it down to the "People's Newspaper" afterwards to find out what the aftershocks were to this event, but it was already clear by the end when the Editor of the paper gave a closing address that quoted Chomsky's debunking of conspiracy theories that the "People's Newspaper" was not convinced on 9/11 conspiracy. This despite the fact that they had peddled this line for over three years.

Last weekend I went to pick up some video of the event at their offices and got a copy of the paper they put out directly after the event. This issue is a STEP by STEP debunking of Griffin's claims which points out the errors and logical fallacies of the so-called "truth movement" and ends with the lead editor concluding that "after putting on this event, I want to make it clear that I can no longer advocate for the truth movement with any confidence". At multiple points the People's Newspaper notes that Griffin supports conspiracy theories about the events of Pearl Harbor, and the reactionary character of his rhetoric (I know from a personal account that the newspaper editor went to a 'truth conference' in Tokyo and was shocked to find himself surrounded by Japanese fascists'). If you visit the paper's site here: http://www.jimmin.com/index.html you will find that they are no longer endorsing 9/11 truth books or positions. These results speak for themselves. The truth movement has not only lost a community of potential believers here, one of the biggest left newspapers in Osaka has finally restored its name by slaying this absurd albatross.

Japanese fascists are still around? Imagine. And they suppport 9/11 Conspiracy theories? Unbelievable.

[MrMickeysMom]

1. If only I could read Japanese...

The link is in Japanese.

[Bolo Boffin]

2. Feel free to disbelieve it. n/t

[MrMickeysMom]

3. You see? I asked about something legitimate, and this is your response.

It's in fucking Japanese.

[Bolo Boffin]

4. You see? I post something factual and someone gets snippy about Japanese

and thereby questions my honesty and the honesty of the person who posted it.

So now you can feel free to disbelieve and have a little hissy fit. Have fun.

[Name removed]

6. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[greyl]

5. You didn't ask anything. nt

[KDLarsen]

7. Well duh, everyone knows DRG is disinfo!!!!11

;)

[MrMickeysMom]

8. Oh, YES, that's right!

(I'd like to insert a big wink here)

I like the part about DRG and his bullshit spreader. It provided a vision of him riding on his spreader in fields of people who ... wait one minute... Those people were actually reading books factually referenced.

So, I suppose those who seek answers and use factually based research calling for a legitimate investigation with panels not wishing to omit testimony must be the same people who seek well referenced books. Hmmm...

[Name removed]

9. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[rhymeandreason]

10. One of the links provided by your JREF poster is a notorious right wing site,

Screw Loose Change.

Here's a list of the sites that Loose Screw recommends:

http://screwloosechange.blogspot.com/

Hyscience
Physics Geek
Ft. Hard Knox
Three O'Clock in the Morning
Don Surber
Real Debate Wisconsin
Yankee Mom
And Rightly So!
Anti-Strib
blonde sagacity
Knowledge Is Power
e-Claire: e-lectronically Delicious!
Stop The ACLU
Webloggin
THE ASTUTE BLOGGER
The Sniper
Fausta's blog
FullosseousFlap's Dental Blog
Wake up America
Residual Forces
IMAO
7.62mm Justice
Pirate Cove
The Sundries Shack
Everyday Thoughts Collected - By Randy Thomas
Thunder Run
TigerHawk
The American Mind
Chicagoray
Texas Rainmaker
BIG DOG'S WEBLOG
USS Neverdock
Radioactive Liberty
Flopping Aces
Committees of Correspondence
bRight & Early
Don Singleton
The Pool Bar
Stuck On Stupid
What's Going On Out There?
Half a Pica Distance
Dr. Sanity
Adam's Blog
All Things Beautiful
violet
A NEWT ONE- THE TRUTH SURGE!
Take Our Country Back
PC Free Zone
Kenders' Musings
FREEDOM EDEN
Planck's Constant
INSIGHT on Freedom
Hard Starboard
Leaning Straight Up
Michelle Malkin
PA Pundits
EckerNet.Com
Neocon Express
Church of the Painful Truth
Growing Old Disgracefully
Left Handed Right Wing
123beta
Captain's Comments
Strong As An Ox And Nearly As Smart
customerservant.com
Jim-Rose.com, The Libertarian Popinjay
Texas Fred's
Classical Values
Cranial Cavity
McBlog
Bacon Eating Atheist Jew
SingleMind.Net: Proud Member, 101st Fightin%u2019 Keyboardists!
....Just For The Record
ConservaThink
sisu
Nancy Reyes
Six Meat Buffet
Assistant Village Idiot
Marvins Word
Gop3.com: The Triumvirate
Cap'n Bob
A Lady's Ruminations
Joust The Facts
Darleen's Place
Villainous Company
The Wide Awake Cafe
Slapstick Politics
The Daily Blogster
Anthroblogogy
The MoxArgon Group
Phantom Observer
The Lone Voice
Right Wing Nation
Dean's World
Pro Cynic
Word Around The Net
Pursuing Holiness
Cranky Beach
Reject the U.N.
Israel Matzav
Blue Crab Boulevard
OldController
Mensa Barbie
The Kool Aid Report
Are We Lumberjacks?
Girl on the Right
the will to exist
Screw Loose Change
Blogmeister
Obi's Sister
Libertarian Leanings
Gribbit's Word
Common Folk Using Common Sense
Woody's Woundup
Combs Spouts Off
Il Rumore Dei miei Venti
Pekin Prattles
Boring Made Dull
Neo Con Eagles Wings
Parableman
Bad Cat Robot
Northern Alliance Wannabe
Conservative Musings
Rhymes With Right
Brainster's Blog
Conservative Blog Therapy
Everything I Know Is Wrong
Shock
GM's Corner
Baldilocks
The World According To Carl
The Median Sib
Woman Honor Thyself
Leather Penguin
Right Truth
DeMediacratic Nation
Hillbilly White Trash
Right Wing Rocker
Iraq War News
Thinking Right
Tidbits And Treasures
The Buzz Blog
Granddaddy Long Legs
Villains Vanquished
Pollywog Creek Porch
Wide White
Iraq Now
Acme Anvil Co.
Chickenhawk Express
As the Top of the World Turns
Diary Of A Hollywood Refugee
Kesher Talk
Musing Minds
Political Satire Fake News - The Nose On Your Face
House of Opinions
Impacted Wisdom Truth
Teapot Tantrums
QuickRob - More than a Blog
The Countervailing Force
Miss Ladybug
Schmoo Report
South Park Diva
Aloha Daze
Blogger Beer
The Gantry Launchpad
De Doc
The Yell
Left Brain Female . . . in a Right Brain World
Nurse William
Signaleer
BoghieOnYourSix
The Computer Curmudgeon
The 82nd Chairborne Division
yeah yeah sure sure
The Right Place
The NJ Blog
Stingray: a blog for salty Christians
Freedoms Zone
My Sandmen
Looking Around
Pettifog
The Kaitlyn Mae Book Blog
Noisy Room
Right on the Right
infinite universe
The Right Track
iHillary
Psycmeistr's Ice Palace
Gawfer
Red Cuppa Politics
High Desert Wanderer
Abu Wabu
Second Shift Reflections
Discerning Texan
Dr. Phat Tony's
Ron's Musings
Confessions of a Pilgrim
The Violence Worker!
AbbaGav
Evil Emperor Mindstation
Pink Flamingo Bar
Red Phish Head
Le Mont De Sisyphe
Assorted Babble
The Dragon and the Phoenix
Strait-Talk
Western Wisdom
KeepinItReal
Sgt. Lori
The Noonz Wire
Citizen Warrior
From The Earth To The Moon
Rocket's Brain
Captain Of One
Unalienable Rights Blog
Dispatches from the Socialist Gulag
Dave in Texas
StixBlog
Useless Drivel
Don't Go Into The Light
Hillary Needs A Vacation
AngryWhitey
Solar Flared
Church and State
The Influence Peddler
Bloggin' Outloud
DD.N
Matt Lewis and the News
Liberty and Justice
Palmetto Pundit
Americans for Freedom
Captain's Quarters
The Daily Bayonet
Bookworm Room
Little Green Footballs
Billy O'Blog
The Real Ugly American
Expose the Left
annavenger
Reformed Chicks Blabbing
Cao's Blog
something's rotten
Obviously Right
Richard's Ego
Big Daddy
Blogs for Condi
The Middle Ground
SCSUScholars
Conservative Cogitation
Bit's Blog
The Amboy Times
Amboy Times
Vox Poplar
Free Constitution
Deep Keel
Blue Star Chronicles
Ron%u2019s Musings
Red Sky!!
THE MUSLIM QUESTION
Life~Florida~Whatever
Jarhead's Firing Range
Random Thoughts Of Yet Another Military Member» Thoughts of a landlocked sailor trapped on the Left Coast
The Infidel Sage Weblog
Crusader Coyote
On the Campus Right
Aggressive Tendencies
The Asylum
INANIMATE CARBON ROD
The Outlaw Republican
On the wing.
Periscope Journal
Tales of A Wandering Mind
The Blorg
Texican Tattler
Passionate America
Shot In The Dark
The Anti-Jihad Pundit
Redneck Rants
Life~Florida~Whatever
Our Benevolent Overlord Kal El
Politechnical
MarinerPundit
The Suburban Crusader
Shoot a Liberal
euphoricreality.net
Wall Street Cafe
Right Mom
Sunlight Foundation- Under The Influence
Small Town Veteran
The Squiggler
Fmragtops
Freedom Dogs
Strata-Sphere
Sailor590
Abracadabrah
Hennessy's view
Rodney G. Graves
Just One Minute
Chris At Home
Way Off Bass
Daily Terrorist Round-up
Sons Of The Republic
CARRY ON AMERICA
Aarons CC
Bob Orr
Post Watch
The Institute
Traction Control
The Colossus
North Coast Online
Sam Houston - Throwing Heat
Brutally Honest
Manly Men
ProtestWarrior
The Gathering Storm
The Art of the Blog
Technogypsy:
CaNN :: We started it.
HOLYCOAST.COM
7 Deadly Sins
Publius Rendezvous
Welcome To The Twilight Zone
Ms. Underestimated
Sma' Talk Wi' T: We Eat Chickens For Lunch
Freedom Watch
When I Can't Not Write
Blogger Ale
Code Red* Women for the Troops
DragonLady's World
Atlas Shrugs
chez Diva
Sneakeasy's Joint
Savko Babe
Shots Across The Bow
Uncooperative Blogger
Real Texas Cowgirl
Elf
Little Platoon
Moonbat Monitor
Deep Thought
Trau Csacskasagai
Technicalities
Rants and Rayguns
Andy Hefty
Rants and Raves
Echoes of Forever
Nuclear Tinkerbell
Chaotic Synaptic Activity
Steve the Pirate
Yellow Limes
Republican Witch
Chuckoblog
Burkeophilia
DK Republic
Gunn Nutt
Philomathean
Vita Abalto
Dean Swift
Paducan Jawa
Bootleg Hollow
Royal Flush
Rightwing Guy
DANEgerus Weblog
Rambix and the Red Star
The Peace Moonbeam Chronicles
Greensickle
BabyTrollBlog
Right Mom
Fugger Nutter
Periscope Journal
American Geek
little green colloquium
The Carrier Project
Tammy Bruce
LegendHasIt
The Irate Nation
ModernConservative
Pious Agnostic

I don't think that we need to waste any time on their attempts to smear David Ray Griffin.

[Bolo Boffin]

11. Ah, no, it's a notorious (among 9/11 CT advocates) blog hosted by a right winger

who mostly keeps his politics off that blog. It's almost 100% debunking of truth.

And where in God's name did you come up with that list of blogs? It certainly isn't at ScrewLooseChange. Here's ScrewLooseChange's blogroll:

Links

* The Chief Brief
* Brainster's Blog

Other Bloggers Covering Loose Change and 9-11 Denial
* 9-11 Booger (Humor)
* 9-11 Conspiracy Smasher
* 9/11 Families for a Safe & Strong America
* 9-11 Videos
* 9-11 You Judge
* Abby Scott
* Alex Jones Exposed
* Arkan Wolfshade
* Calamity News
* Constitution Club
* Counterknowledge
* Daimnation!
* Dean Esmay
* Defcon 911
* Detailed Recruiter
* Denialism
* Ex-Truther
* Feathered Bastard
* Fort Hard Knox
* The Infidel Sage
* The Jawa Report
* JREF Forum on Loose Change
* LDS Patriot
* Neocon News
* Nyctohlyophobia
* Pax Americana
* Rebel Rebel
* Religion Blog
* Satire & Theology
* Silent Running
* Screw Loose Change Forum
* The Kingpin 68

Reference Material:
* 9-11 Guide
* 9-11 Transcripts
* Loose Change Version 1
* Loose Change Version 2
* Loose Change Version 2 Extra Footage
* Loose Change Goes to Ground Zero
* Loose Change Creators Speak! (PDF)
* Popular Mechanics Debunking
* 9-11 Commission Report
* FEMA WTC Report
* NIST WTC Report

Other Debunkers:
* 9-11 Cult Watch (UK)
* 9-11 Debunker
* 9-11 Myths
* 9-11 Transcripts
* 9-11 Truthiness
* Calan8 (Excellent NORAD work)
* Conspiracies R Not Us
* Debunking 9-11
* Debunk 9-11 Myths (blog)
* Debunking Directory
* The Doc 9-11
* Good Science and 9-11 Demolition Theories
* I Kid You Not
* Internet Detectives
* Viewer Guide to Loose Change (Doc)
* Viewer Guide to Loose Change HTML
* Markyx Corrected Loose Change Movie
* Journal of Debunking 9/11 Conspiracy Theories
* Osama Did It--Get a Life!
* The Truth 9-11
* TruthWatch UK
* What I Learned from 9-11 Conspiracy Theories
* The Zeitgeist
* WTC7lies (Mark Roberts)

Other Languages:
* 9/11 vastauksia (Finnish)
* TwoofersRLiars (Belgian/Dutch)
* Zapburu (Dutch)
* Werboom (German)
* InfoKriegTV (German)
* Henry62 (Italian)
* Undici settembre (Italian)
* Projecto Ockham (Portugeuse)

You appear to have posted grossly inaccurate information in an attempt to handwave away some interesting information about the sainted Dr. Griffin. Shame on you.

By the way, that WTC7lies website is by Mark Roberts, a notorious debunker who is as liberal and progressive a Democrat as a New Yorker can be. Care to find out what he thinks about David Ray Griffin? I assume he passes your political litmus test.

(not to mention little old me...)

[rhymeandreason]

16. All of the links that I posted were located directly to the right of

the Loose Screw article linked by Adversity1.

Here is the link you posted:
http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=4378211&postcount=1

Here is the link from the JREF poster, Adversity1:
http://screwloosechange.blogspot.com/2008/11/confronting-david-ray-griffin-in-osaka.html

If you will allow your eyes to wander to the right and down you will find all of the links I posted under "allies".

Read through the Loose Screw's natterings and I am sure that you will agree that Adversity1 should really change his JREF pseud and tag from "Adversity1, scholar" to something more like "RabidWingnut1, Loyal GOPer".

[Bolo Boffin]

17. That's only a picture of the 101st Fighting Keyboardists, one of Pat's nods to his politics.

Pat doesn't link to them, though. The picture is all. You had to go to their website on your own and bring back those names.

And that doesn't change the truth about what Adversity1 posted at all. A leading left newspaper in Japan invited David Ray Griffin to speak. He came and did speak. The result was that the newspaper swore off of supporting 9/11 truth, which they had done for three years. And all of your crying about right wingers isn't going to change that.

I'm sure if that's your major reason for discounting what people say about 9/11 that you will join in the denouncing of Richard Gage, Republican and main snake oil salesman for Architects & Engineers for 9/11 Truth. You will also be denouncing Stephen Jones, so right wing he supports the Constitution Party. Shall we start looking at party affiliations of major spokesmen for the 9/11 Truth Movement? Is that a battle you wish to fight?

[rhymeandreason]

18. Here's a screenshot

They're all there, clearly visible as you can see. Maybe your graphics card isn't up to it. I just actually cut and paste the lot of them with a couple of clicks including such gems as "Stop the ACLU, "Shoot a Liberal" and RW sweetheart "Michelle Malkin".

And yes, it certainly does change the "truth" of what Adverse is saying.

[Bolo Boffin]

19. "it certainly does change the "truth" of what Adverse is saying"

The hell it does. Political persuasion has no effect on truth at all. The way you demonstrate something is wrong is NOT showing their political persuasion, but that what they say is WRONG.

I see you stepped neatly away from offering your opinion of Richard Gage and Stephen Jones. Could it be that their hyperconservatism doesn't change the truthfulness of what they say in your mind? Can you account for this interesting double standard you are on the verge of demonstrating?

Yes, it may very well be that the crappy laptop I'm on right now isn't showing those links. Do you see how that works? You presented actual evidence. Yes, I'm satisfied that the Keyboardists are linked on Pat's website. It's a moot point, though, when it comes to denying what Adversity1 said.

[rhymeandreason]

20. My opinion of Jones and Gage?

Jones has done some important and worthwhile work on 9/11 issues but he is too committed to his theory for him to be objective. Scientific inquiry needs to be unbiased, Dr. Jones is married to his theory.

Gage has more credibility with me but that may be because I am not knowledgeable about his work. When truthers first asserted that the collapses were controlled demolition, skeptics demanded professional validation. Gage is a professional.

As far as the validity of Adverse's points, it's hard to say since his contempt for Griffin seems to rule his opinions. But in issues as abstruse as 9/11 it is difficult to determine what is true what is the product some political agenda. Griffin certainly means well but I think he is motivated by a sincere interest in the spiritual benefits of honest closure on what happened. Unfortunately, because of the persistent secrecy of the Bush administration there has never been a satisfactory explanation and many millions of people are demanding closure.

Your browser issues may relate to your system's color settings, try adjusting the color settings and see what happens.

[Bolo Boffin]

21. So Republicans say what you like to hear and it's thumbs up.

But when people who post on a Republican-operated debunking board say something you don't like, you call Repubican and turn off the brain.

Explain the rhyme and reason of that.

[rhymeandreason]

25. That's not what I said

reread the post.

[Bolo Boffin]

30. Oh, yes, it is.

You tried mightily to justify your double standard, but that is what you said. Jones and Gage get much more of a benefit of a doubt than Adversity1, and yet Jones and Gage are clearly hyperconservatives, while you have no true evidence of Adversity1's politics.

[AZCat]

22. Gage is a professional, all right.

A professional architect. He knows jack shit about engineering.

[rhymeandreason]

26. I think you will find that at most schools

a degree in architecture has course requirements including physics and engineering.

[Realityhack]

28. I think you will find AZCat knows more about those two fields than you do.

I don't mean that as an insult but he has shown here that he is very familiar with the fields and how they operate.
Perhaps you should go back and read some of his earlier postings before jumping to the conclusion that once having taken a course or two in physics and engineering is equivalent to knowing jack shit about them.

[AZCat]

29. An architecture degree may have some requirements, but not enough.

That's not to say that there aren't architects out there who do have a good grasp of engineering, but they are very rare. And Gage is not among them.

The relationship between engineers and architects is explained quite succinctly in this "Pearls Before Swine" strip:
January 7 Pearls Before Swine

[Realityhack]

31. "...it certainly does change the "truth" of what Adverse is saying."

That is called an ad-hominem argument and it is not valid.
Who someone is does not inherently change wither any particular statement they make is true or false.

Let's say it's Monday:
Bush can say it is Monday and it can in fact be Monday even though he is a lying sack of shit.
OTOH a leading physicist and progressive can accidental think it is Tuesday and say so... and be dead wrong.

You are making a logical error in pointing out the political affiliation of a site on which someone posted something as a way to demonstrate it is not true. You further compound your error by creating a double standard when you do not apply exactly the same criteria to your own sources.

[WoodrowFan]

37. SLC

While I have sometimes enjoyed SCL's skewing of the 9-11 conspiracy bugs, he does go to far sometimes I think, such as his excusing Rice's stupid comments that the famous August PDB was simply "historical" :eyes: and his recent buying into the RW nonsense about the memorial to Flight 93 somehow "honoring" the hijackers because it's a "crescent pointing toward Mecca." James seems to be somewhat less skeptical of RW conspiracies than he is of those popular with the left.

[Bolo Boffin]

38. Very good point.

They also tend to describe the 9/11 truth movement as left wingers and libertarians, so that the right wing can get a pass.

I give a little credence to the Crescent of Honor notion, but only because 1, that was the original name of the memorial, and 2, the crescent in the beginning was specifically built out of trees that would turn red. The Red Crescent is the symbolic equivalent of the Red Cross, and to me meant that this extreme act of Muslim fundamentalism could only best be healed by the best impulses of Islam. In other words, the designer's heart was in the right place, but I understand also why people would want changes to the design, and secured them.

Pat recognizes that the crescent did not "point to Mecca", but he does contribute to the right wing hysteria over the memorial.

I'm sure I have my failings as well. I'm not making myself out to be perfect at all. But a right-wing bias is a part of SLC Blog.

[MrMickeysMom]

12. Just one thing...

JREF? I couldn't figure out that one.

Seems like you might be calling out those who posted as associated with that site, so I think I get it.

Now, on to better things in life than dealing with loose screws and loose cannons, for that matter...

[Bolo Boffin]

13. JREF is a non-politically aligned site. rhyme is smearing ScrewLooseChange because of the politics

of the hosts of the blog.

Weren't you supposed to be upset about drive-by posting and smearing further up the thread? And now here you are, all up to your eyebrows in it? Sad...

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bolo Boffin]

15. Your uncivil mangling of my name has been alerted.

You have also failed to recognized that I started this thread. Take your incivility elsewhere. It is unwelcome here.

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bolo Boffin]

24. If that's not an apology, your incivility is still unwelcome here. n/t

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Realityhack]

27. FWIW I agree with lithos decision on that one... however,

you can feel free to take it up with Lithos.

[Grateful for Hope]

34. Kind of an interesting thread

:applause:

"Not that I think the OP has any merit".

[Bolo Boffin]

35. Any reason the OP doesn't have any merit besides your bright shiny self, Hope? n/t

[Grateful for Hope]

39. Thank you for the compliment, Bolo.

I wish I were "bright and shiny", but, alas, those days are long past.

You know I don't agree with you on most things, but, I don't wish to spar anymore, and, I apologize for my post. It was uncalled for.

[Realityhack]

36. Are you saying what is posted in the OP didn't happen?

The OP seems mostly factual. Griffin gives talk... newspaper drops 9-11 because Griffin was not credible.

As far as I can tell... that IS what happened. So I assume you mean something else by not having merit.

You can disagree with the newspapers take on things... but I don't see that as a valid criticism of the OP.

What is it that you do not think has merit?